EV Digest 4596
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: open source-ness of Solectria E10?
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: What is CCWDE...ADC vs. Netgain
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: e-meter DC/DC - underpowered?
by "August Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Putting breaker under the radio
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) EV of the past
by "j-ro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Help me decide!
by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: 100 mile range, Re: Alternative batteries
by "Peter Perkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: e-meter DC/DC - underpowered?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Kilovac Czonka II Relay Question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Electravan Shunt.
by Robb Zuk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Will 220 vac IOTA work with 144 VDC?
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) From Roderick
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: link 10 question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: 100 mile range, Re: Alternative batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: 100 mile range, Re: Alternative batteries
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: 100 mile range, Re: Alternative batteries
by "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Request for some required reading.
by "John J Januszewski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) ADC vs. Netgain / how about Prestolite?
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) How to advance timng of ADC motors
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Correct AGM finish charge (Was: Re: PFC-30)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: 100 mile range, Re: Alternative batteries
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Correct AGM finish charge (Was: Re: PFC-30)
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: [toyota-prius] MPG vs. NGM:Now cents per mile.
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm .. curious: In case of trouble with an E-10 truck, would I be able to
call somebody, hook up a chain or something and get a quick tow home?
mm.
> Michaela
> When I bought my E-10s in early July, I drove out to Arizona with my Dodge
> Ram 1500 and I towed one and my dad towed the other (he has a Ram also)
> 1500
> miles to Nashville. The only problem we had was the dang U-haul tow dolly
> trailers both had flat tires along the way. It didn't effect anything
> when
> the tires blew out. We came prepared and just used the standard Dodge
> screw
> jack and lifted trailer and truck together and replace the trailer tire.
> That was a pain but only slowed us down about 30 minutes each time it
> happened. The only caveat is that you tow the truck backward on the
> trailer
> and use a couple of tie down straps to lock the steering wheel to the seat
> belt mounting points. We actually only needed to do that with one truck.
> It seemed like the steering lock was a little weak and it would slip a
> notch. The other traveled fine without the tie downs. I actually got
> better mileage coming home from Arizona than I did driving out there. And
> that was pulling a truck with 1000 lbs of batteries! I guess that was
> because I never went over 65mph on the way home and was pushing 75 or more
> on the way out. They pull very easy backward. Most tow trucks (heaven
> forbid you will ever need one) can just as easily pick the truck up
> backward
> as forward.
>
> Jeff Wilson
> USA(Ret)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michaela Merz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 11:14 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: open source-ness of Solectria E10?
>
>
>
> What scares me a little about those trucks is, that you can't tow them
> (that is what I have been told). You have to put them onto a flat bed.
> After all, those cars are some 6-7 years old and, well, we all know that
> cars can and will fail. Being unable to call somebody for a quick tow home
> would be a BIG show stopper for me.
>
> mm.
>
>
>
>
>> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> You don't really mean to suggest that, do you? Usually people is
>>> dreaming about doing it other way around - trash a DC system
>>> and put AC system in.
>>
>> No way! I was just pointing out the ability to do so. I like not
>> having to futz with brushes and stuff.
>>
>>>> Or dump the charger and put in one of the PFC units.
>>>
>>>
>>> Same goes here. If you'll ever want to "dump" an NLG412
>>> in a favor of a PFC, let's exchange - I'll give you PFC
>>> and may be pay some.
>>
>> And the same here. If anybody on the list has an NLG412 they want to
>> sell, please contact me off-list. This is a great charger and I like to
>> have spares around!
>>
>> My mentioning these things was merely to show how flexible the truck
>> is. Also, I know there have been a few of these on eBay recently and
>> some were missing motor controllers or chargers and/or had been
>> disassembled -- And had those disclaimer-loaded descriptions that just
>> scream "dead truck!". You could buy these trucks and if one of the
>> systems was dead, you wouldn't have to worry too much about replacing it
>> with another option.
>>
>> -Tom
>>
>> --
>> Thomas Hudson
>> http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
>> http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
>> http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
>> http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
>> http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Cwarman, Eric, and Everyone else that will listen :)
I should have realized when I put those acronyms on the WarP motor pages
on EV Source that most people would wonder, just like I did, what they
meant. It looks like that question has already been answered - Counter
ClockWise when viewed from the Drive End and ClockWise when viewed from
the Drive End. I put a tooltip on the Shaft Rotation select for each
size WarP motor to clarify that.
On to Cwarman's question about why ADC vs. WarP motors.
I'm a bit biased since I deal WarP motors. But that's really the very
reason I prefer them. I'll explain. I contacted ADC awhile back with
interest to sell their motors. It seemed most people were using them in
their conversions at the time, and were happy with the performance. I
didn't get a single response from ADC. Granted, sometimes e-mails get
lost in the whole sea of mail. But Netgain has been a pleasure to deal
with from the very first e-mail conversation I had with them. They are
a living, breathing company that is out there to make EV motors! They
are dedicated to meeting the EV crowd needs.
In several of the WarP motors, they are a drop-in replacement for ADC
motors.
While possibly a bit higher-priced, take a look at the available
options! And while you're at it, take a look how easy it is to buy one
with all the options configured:
http://www.evsource.com/tls_motors.php. Cash discounts are available.
I would invite a rebuttal to this e-mail on the virtues of ADC motors.
As I said, I'm biased :)
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, WarP, and PowerCheq
All at the best prices available!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's the same converter that I bought from Newark at the same price. Works
fine even with no load. The ripple goes up to about .3 volts p-p with no
load. I like this converter because it'll take 9-18 volts on the input.
I checked my E-Meter for current draw, the most I could make it draw was
about 165mA, with the sun shining directly on it.
August Johnson
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Bohm
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 8:00 PM
To: EV List
Subject: Re: e-meter DC/DC - underpowered?
Hi Everyone,
Richard said:
>This part is only rated at 167mA. Yet the Link 10 can require up to
>225mA. How do you control this?
>
>Richard
>
My e-meter's manual says it is 50-150mA, depending on lighting
conditions. This is the e-meter before it was the Link 10. It peforms
the same as far as I can tell. It's the same unit that Grassroots EV
has on their website for a very good price. I'd get one from them
before they run out!
Maybe the "Link 10" uses 225mA peak. Of course I haven't measured the
current draw, maybe it is higher than spec. Whatever the case, the
DC/DC I mentioned works good, and hasn't overheated or burned up.
In light of this, I'd recommend something like this, Mouser part number
580-NDY1212
<http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?handler=displayproduct&lstdispproductid=234
498&e_categoryid=100&e_pcodeid=58017>.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Would it make sense to have a fault interruptor for an ungrounded
battery? It wouldn't be very practical to build a GFCI type arrangement
in DC, but I could imagine another form of fault detector if the circuit
is indeed isolated.
Basically if you just checked the potential from the pack + to frame and
pack - to frame, you should not see a voltage in an isolated
configuration. That could mean a ground fault that might mean you
should open a breaker.
The problem might be if an e-meter, HV-to-12v converter, etc might
ground it and it would meam shutting odd the power if detected.
Danny
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
I think the concern is shearing in an accident. You are drilling a
hole in thin metal. That could act as a knife in a wreck. If both
holes collapsed it could cut both cables and connect a very hot
circuit. Welding would take place. However I like your idea.
LR.........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bingo!
yes that is the article and the truck was mentioned and must have been what I
was interested in.
So what can be drawn from these ideas for a 40 mph 20 mile round-trip commute
with 6 stop lights/signs and only occ side trips?
Is the essence of the appeal the exageration or can a simple system provide
basic transportation?
Lots of questions but it would be of interest to play out a current version of
this approach? A gedanken project.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
Thank you for the response! I've put my responses below. I hope to
hear from you. Thanks, again, for the help.
-Sam
Lee Hart wrote:
Sam Harper wrote:
I'm trying to weigh between [an AC] and a DC concept [drive system].
I'm not really concerned about performance -- just range.
If range is important, then pounds of batteries is more important than
whether you use an AC or DC drive system. The battery system is your
first priority.
- Small crossover-type SUV, perfect vehicle seems to be the Suzuki
X-90 or Kia Sportage - something with 4WD
4WD is always going to be less efficient, and this works against range.
EVs tend to be heavy anyway, so 4WD is normally less necessary. But, I
think you said that you wanted 4WD no matter what?
I'm not really interested in the 4WD system itself - in fact, it will be
removed. I really just want the wheel hubs/axles from the 4WD system
for use with the Eteks.
- Replace ICE, transmission, and differentials with an Etek motor
and 2:1 gearbox on each wheel
This could work, but would take a lot of effort. The Etek is very
efficient and lightweight; but also expensive, low in horsepower, and
very weakly made for a traction motor. It is not something I would
expect to last long in heavy usage.
You are correct, the Etek has its weaknesses - my main concern is
whether it is strong enough. In theory, it should be able to provide
enough to get the car going along (15hp MAX at each wheel, 7hp nominal,
plus the 2:1 conversion). Has anyone any information as to the Eteks
reliability in a motorcycle environment? Number of hours the motor
has? This would be greatly appreciated.
-Each Etek controlled by its own Sevcon Millipak 4Q motor
A big advantage to brushed DC motors is how easily they will share the
load when all run from the same controller. So you really don't need 4
separate controllers; a single one large enough for the total power
needed would be a better solution.
My only question with this was regen. I know with four seperate
controllers, regen wouldn't be a problem - but what about four motors on
one controller?
-48v system, still a PFC-20 or PFC-30 charger
The 48v is a consequence of the Etek motor's voltage limitation. But the
number of batteries you need for adequate range will push you towards a
higher pack voltage.
Is the 48v system such a downfall if backed by a large number of amps in
the pack? Instead of having a higher voltage pack, have a lower voltage
super-buddy paired pack?
-4 strings of 6 US Battery 8-volt HC batteries
8-volt batteries are a compromise; something you use when neither range,
nor life, nor cost, nor performance are your biggest concerns. If range
is your big issue, then I'd start with 6v golf car batteries like the
T-125 or T-145. See how many the vehicle can carry, and what system
voltage that leads you to.
I'm curious why 8-volt is a compromise? Cell composition? They just
seemed to work well for price, weight, and number of amp-hours.
Then look for a single traction motor large enough for the power needed.
Then find a controller suitable for the pack voltage and current the
chosen motor will need.
I'm looking at alternatives, the concept of using a motor per wheel has
always been on my mind, and I thought I'd throw it out. Thanks, again!
-Sam
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree with Victor
200ah cells should be minimum size for any ev or you will run into problems
with available power not capacity.
peter
-----Original Message-----
From: Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 18 August 2005 20:27
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 100 mile range, Re: Alternative batteries
Congrats Peter;
We did a group purchase of TS cells here in the States for about
$1/Ah as well (actually UK fans followed me). The trouble is,
we believed in published specs before experience indicated that
<200Ah TS cells are not really suitable for an EV. Not capacity wise,
but the battery power especially at low temps.
So those who for 200Ah are lucky ones. I have 90Ah cells and
capacity is more than enough for me, but I can't get it out
at the rate I need, R_int is too high. 100Ah ones are better,
but very marginal - thy are OK only for lightest custom vehicles,
normally not conversions.
200Ah can handle current demands without noticeable voltage sag.
I have an opportunity to get other LiIon type for ACRX now
(I removed 90Ah pack at the moment), but if I'd go with TS,
I'd use 200Ah cells - no less. This is my recommendation to
anyone going this route. Granted, don't even think using
raw cells without a BMS. A collection of the cells connected
in series is NOT a propulsion battery yet. It is a recipe
for disappointment.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
Peter Perkins wrote:
> As a TS Li-Ion (30x200ah) user for two years I am very happy.
>
> Range went from a pb cell knackering 30 miles to 75+ with relative ease.
> Possibly I could manage 100 if I tickled it along like Light foot Joe!
>
> I would recommend them to ev users now. I would never go pb again unless I
> was drag racing, which i'm not. They are also probably better now than
when
> I bought mine as part of the UK 2003 bulk purchase.
>
> They are actually fairly simple to manage with stock components.
>
> Cedric Lynch of Lynch Motors fame makes a nice idiot proof, simple and
cheap
> analogue Li-Ion cell protector which interfaces with most standard ev
> controllers and chargers.
>
> With some thermal management they give excellent range and reasonable
> performance for my town EV.
>
> Luckily I bought mine when they were $1.00 per ah.
>
> Regards
>
> Peter
>
> www.solarvan.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am TOTALLY building one that does not have these issues. Mine already
has a neat graphical display of deep cycle usage over the last 24 hrs,
it's not going to be that complicated to change the scale and time
period. The schematic modifications I wrote in would allow it to work
high side, low side, or anywhere in between equally well. It's floating
and optically isolated.
Actually I don't have an EV, but I can never resist a technical
challenge. Anybody want to try it?
Danny
Ryan Bohm wrote:
Hi Everyone,
Richard said:
This part is only rated at 167mA. Yet the Link 10 can require up to
225mA. How do you control this?
Richard
My e-meter's manual says it is 50-150mA, depending on lighting
conditions. This is the e-meter before it was the Link 10. It
peforms the same as far as I can tell. It's the same unit that
Grassroots EV has on their website for a very good price. I'd get one
from them before they run out!
Maybe the "Link 10" uses 225mA peak. Of course I haven't measured the
current draw, maybe it is higher than spec. Whatever the case, the
DC/DC I mentioned works good, and hasn't overheated or burned up.
In light of this, I'd recommend something like this, Mouser part
number 580-NDY1212
<http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?handler=displayproduct&lstdispproductid=234498&e_categoryid=100&e_pcodeid=58017>.
It's about double the price (~$17), but can take 9-18V on the input.
I had to build a simple circuit to verify that the voltage didn't go
over about 13.5V.
This part is rated at a maximum of 3W. The only problem I see is that
it's minimum current is about 60mA. That's about the minimum of the
e-meter, so I imagine it would work fine.
-Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
> An economizer is typically a cap and a resistor in parallel, hooked in
> series with the coil.
Good description of the most common kind of economizer circuit.
John Wayland described another type. The resistor and capacitor are in
series. The switch and coil are in series, and connected across the
capacitor. When the switch is off, the capacitor charges up thru the
resistor. When the switch turns on, the capacitor discharges into the
coil, rapidly pulling it in. But then the capacitor runs down, and the
resistor determines the steady-state holding voltage (which is usually
around 1/4th the supply voltage). This circuit is less popular because
it requires a bigger, higher voltage capacitor and you need connections
to both sides of the switch (neither side can connect to +12v or
ground).
The high-tech circuits described by Roger Stockton also work. They cost
more and take more design effort, but get rid of the power resistor and
the heat it produces, and are thus more efficient.
There are still other methods. The cheapest is a light bulb in series
with the coil. Its resistance when cold is very low, so the coil pulls
in with essentially full voltage. But then the bulb lights, its
resistance rises, and it limits the current. With the kilovac, I'd try
an normal car brake+tail light with both filaments in parallel.
Another efficient method (not applicable in this case) is to use a 24v
coil contactor with a 12v circuit. You also need a big capacitor, a
diode, and a DPDT switch. With the switch off, it connects the capacitor
to the 12v source and the coil is open (off). When you turn the switch
on, it connects the charged capacitor and the 12v source in series to
power the coil at 24v. When the capacitor runs down, a diode maintains
the coil current from the 12v source. This scheme eliminates any power
wasting resistors, but requires a more complicated switch.
There are still more, but they are special-case solutions (like
contactors with separate actuate and hold coils).
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes. The three Electravans I've worked with have standard 500 Amp, 50 mV
shunts.
On Wed, 3 Aug 2005 02:09:36 -0700, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
>Does anyone know if the Electravans made by JET used a standard 50mv shunt.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Alright so I'm getting really close to my Saturn conversion running and
something has started to nag at my mind. I had originally bought a 220 vac
version of the IOTA switching power supplies for a DC/DC converter because my
original plan was for a 192 volt conversion so I ordered it at the same time as
a bunch of other stuff (gotta love the wide voltage range of PFC chargers and
Zilla controllers). So now my conversion has come down to a 144 volt conversion
so I'm starting to wounder if it's going to work. I know the 220 vac version
can take pretty high input voltages, but does anyone know if it will work with
lower or has anyone tried this?
Later,
Ricky
02 Red Insight #559
92 Saturn SC2 EV conversion in progress
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark,
I got an endorsement for my site www.rideablecommunities.org fom your
town, Fincastle and from your state but it had my name on it. Is this a joke
you are doing with me and I don't undestand it. You are the only person I
know in Fincastle, VA. what's up, enquiring minds want to know :-)
Roderick
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.12/77 - Release Date: 8/18/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Does this device has an output to toggle when some conditions are met?
> For example can it shut off external charger if Ah rolls to zero?
Yes, if you get one with the external alarm option. It has two
switchable outputs, which you can program to switch at particular states
of charge or pack voltages.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> But Joe Average's buying behavior for things other than cars
>> does indeed seem to be to buy cheap, cheaper, or cheapest;
>> no matter what the consequences.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Do you follow this pattern too?
Sometimes. It depends on the circumstances. I suspect I'm like most
people. I'm inclined to buy based on price alone if I don't have the
money for something better, or I don't understand what I'm buying (can't
tell the more expensive one is better), or if it's a "mad" purchase
where it doesn't matter if it works or not.
> If you don't like this pattern, try to break it.
I try. All too often, I have no choice -- nothing BUT cheap junk is
available!
> If you take advantage of it, you're supporting and thus reinforcing
> it. Then, why complain about it?
Complaining is often the first step toward solving a problem. It's how
people come to realize there *is* a problem. If no one ever complained,
nothing would ever get fixed!
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can get more information from Arvind Rabadia ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) who
works for Stybrook Ltd. Stybrook sells the modules for Cedric. They're
about $25 each. Stybrook was nice enough to send me a sample installation
guide and overview about them, so you might be able to ask them for one.
Basically, the modules monitor for overvoltage and undervoltage. You wire
optos on all modules (one for overvoltage and the other for undervoltage)
together so that if any single cell goes over or under, a signal is sent.
For overvoltage, you would use this signal to cut back or turn off your
charger. For undervoltage, you'd use the signal to cut back on the
throttle.
Overvoltage is set at 4.25V, but between 4.2 and 4.25V, the module shunts
250mA. So when charging, the first cell to reach 4.2V starts to burn off
some of the charge. When it gets to 4.25V, it turns on the opto. The
simplest scheme is to turn off your charger whenever any cell is at 4.25V
and turn back on when the overvoltage signal goes off. Eventually, all
cells get charged evenly this way, though it takes a while.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ken Trough
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 1:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 100 mile range, Re: Alternative batteries
> Cedric Lynch of Lynch Motors fame makes a nice idiot proof, simple and
> cheap analogue Li-Ion cell protector which interfaces with most
> standard ev controllers and chargers.
Got a link? Thanks!
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How did GM get good acceleration and range with their Ovonic 13.2v 85Ah
NiMH batteries?
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter Perkins
> Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 8:37 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: 100 mile range, Re: Alternative batteries
>
> I agree with Victor
>
> 200ah cells should be minimum size for any ev or you will run
> into problems with available power not capacity.
>
> peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 18 August 2005 20:27
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: 100 mile range, Re: Alternative batteries
>
> Congrats Peter;
>
> We did a group purchase of TS cells here in the States for
> about $1/Ah as well (actually UK fans followed me). The
> trouble is, we believed in published specs before experience
> indicated that <200Ah TS cells are not really suitable for an
> EV. Not capacity wise, but the battery power especially at low temps.
>
> So those who for 200Ah are lucky ones. I have 90Ah cells and
> capacity is more than enough for me, but I can't get it out
> at the rate I need, R_int is too high. 100Ah ones are better,
> but very marginal - thy are OK only for lightest custom
> vehicles, normally not conversions.
>
> 200Ah can handle current demands without noticeable voltage sag.
>
> I have an opportunity to get other LiIon type for ACRX now (I
> removed 90Ah pack at the moment), but if I'd go with TS, I'd
> use 200Ah cells - no less. This is my recommendation to
> anyone going this route. Granted, don't even think using raw
> cells without a BMS. A collection of the cells connected in
> series is NOT a propulsion battery yet. It is a recipe for
> disappointment.
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
>
> Peter Perkins wrote:
> > As a TS Li-Ion (30x200ah) user for two years I am very happy.
> >
> > Range went from a pb cell knackering 30 miles to 75+ with
> relative ease.
> > Possibly I could manage 100 if I tickled it along like
> Light foot Joe!
> >
> > I would recommend them to ev users now. I would never go pb
> again unless I
> > was drag racing, which i'm not. They are also probably
> better now than
> when
> > I bought mine as part of the UK 2003 bulk purchase.
> >
> > They are actually fairly simple to manage with stock components.
> >
> > Cedric Lynch of Lynch Motors fame makes a nice idiot proof,
> simple and
> cheap
> > analogue Li-Ion cell protector which interfaces with most
> standard ev
> > controllers and chargers.
> >
> > With some thermal management they give excellent range and
> reasonable
> > performance for my town EV.
> >
> > Luckily I bought mine when they were $1.00 per ah.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > www.solarvan.co.uk
>
>
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Hello Folks,
My name is John J Januszewski. I've been lurking for about a month now and
would like to know if anybody can give me some titles and authors of some
books that might teach me more about the basics of this EV thing. Like an
EV101 course. I don't want to hang around and ask all the silly questions
and expose myself to the tyrannical rants that usually develop around here
after such things. I, and many others, don't have time for that. Just the
basics pertaining to what all the jargon and acronyms stand for.
I'm currently designing and building an EV. WarP 9 with a double 144V pack
and a Zilla Z1K I haven't decided on the batts yet. Orbitals maybe. Under
2000lbs total weight. Not really looking to drag race (hence the Z1K as
opposed to the Z2K) but I want it peppy. More of a cruiser than anything
else. I've built about a dozen airplanes with composites so I'm sticking
with what I know and the EV will be mostly glass and carbon graphite. Most
of it is still on the drawing board and that is why I want to get a handle
on the electrical part so I can make it all fit together before I start
mixing the sticky stuff.
Thank You For Your Time
John J Januszewski
www.jcomposites.com
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Snip> In several of the WarP motors, they are a drop-in replacement for ADC
Motors.
While possibly a bit higher-priced, take a look at the available
options! And while you're at it, take a look how easy it is to buy one with
all the options configured:
http://www.evsource.com/tls_motors.php. Cash discounts are available.
I would invite a rebuttal to this e-mail on the virtues of ADC motors.
As I said, I'm biased :)
Ill bite here. Being Im just a re-builder and not a sales rep for either and
it seems Im invited and all ; ).
First I want to say that Warp motors are Im sure equal to and in some cases
better than ADC. I find it funny though how your first sentence says it all.
They are drop in replacements for the ADC. My experience has been motors from
the forklift side and well, they were just copies of Prestolites and ADCs.
But the parts were not interchangeable, and this became frustrating (not an
issue for you guys). I have seen both the 8 Warp and the ADC 8 and there is no
discernible difference, so in fact they should run tit for tat (as long as you
advance the ADC). At that point it seems Advance chooses to cater to companies
were as Warfield / Netgain choose to cater to individual clientele, and this I
applaud, as I to am very customer orientated. Word of mouth means a great deal
and well Advance treats me very well and I invite any who are finding trouble
getting parts for any Advance motor to let me know.
Ive recently landed some really nice used 9 inch Advances and Prestolites and
will probably throw the Prestolites Does anyone out there use Prestolites?)
into my project and modify and sell the Advances. In fact either is just as
good, and I will hope to prove that if I can get my project off the ground. I
was born and bred Prestolite and well Im partial to many of their models also.
As a re-builder I see the weak links in all the motors types and well they all
have them. You dont think Ill be freaking out as John takes the Siamese
twins for their first ride. With as many mods and with John boosting his pack
to what ever godly amount it was at last count and adding to that a proto type
shaft Im scared as hell. But it will all come down to either John setting
some new records or destroying 100 hours of my work in under 11 seconds. At
this point I will give credit that they are in fact WarP 8s (which I hope he
doesnt kill) that I have merely modified. This was!
all in
good fun and well motors it seems are like art, you either love it or you
dont, lol.
Cya at Woodburn
Proud sponsor of Plasma Boy Racing
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Cwarman, Eric, and Everyone else that
will listen :)
I should have realized when I put those acronyms on the WarP motor pages
on EV Source that most people would wonder, just like I did, what they
meant. It looks like that question has already been answered - Counter
ClockWise when viewed from the Drive End and ClockWise when viewed from
the Drive End. I put a tooltip on the Shaft Rotation select for each
size WarP motor to clarify that.
On to Cwarman's question about why ADC vs. WarP motors.
I'm a bit biased since I deal WarP motors. But that's really the very
reason I prefer them. I'll explain. I contacted ADC awhile back with
interest to sell their motors. It seemed most people were using them in
their conversions at the time, and were happy with the performance. I
didn't get a single response from ADC. Granted, sometimes e-mails get
lost in the whole sea of mail. But Netgain has been a pleasure to deal
with from the very first e-mail conversation I had with them. They are
a living, breathing company that is out there to make EV motors! They
are dedicated to meeting the EV crowd needs.
In several of the WarP motors, they are a drop-in replacement for ADC
motors.
While possibly a bit higher-priced, take a look at the available
options! And while you're at it, take a look how easy it is to buy one
with all the options configured:
http://www.evsource.com/tls_motors.php. Cash discounts are available.
I would invite a rebuttal to this e-mail on the virtues of ADC motors.
As I said, I'm biased :)
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, WarP, and PowerCheq
All at the best prices available!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
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Hi all,
I have heard someone mentioning how they can get better performance by
advancing the timing of the ADC motors. How does that work and what sort of
performance am i expecting??
I got 6.7 inch K series.
Cheers
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Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Based on your discussion about AGM filling up I want to get a
> consensus (if exist :-) ) how it should be done "properly".
> I need to program one of the gadgets to do it. You were debating
> how long 2A current after CV stage should last and if there
> must be voltage limit. I didn't see a clear answer.
The problem is that the "best" charging algorithm CHANGES depending not
only on the particular type and model of battery, but also on its
condition and recent history. A charger that always applies the same
algorithm will be right sometimes, and wrong other times.
Imagine that *you* are the charger controller. Suppose I placed a heavy
cardboard box with two wires hanging out of it on your desk and said,
"Victor, charge this battery." How would you do it?
You might take my word for it, and blindly connect those two wires to
your bench power supply. But if I was wrong and it was a 6v battery, or
if I mis-labelled the + and - wires, it could destroy your power supply.
So you use a voltmeter to find out which lead is + and -, and check to
make sure it really does seem to be a 12 battery.
This is the first step of any good charging algorithm -- it makes sure
the battery is connected properly and of apparently the right voltage.
Now what? You don't know the battery type or amphour capacity, or its
temperature, or age, or state of charge. So you just start charging it
at whatever the maximum current your power supply can deliver.
This is the "bulk" step of most good chargers -- charge as fast as the
charger can go, on the assumption that the battery can take it.
But you'd better keep checking the voltage. The battery might already be
full, or has excessive internal resistance, or is cold, or just of too
low an amphour capacity to stand your bulk charging rate without
excessive voltage increase. So when the voltages goes above the gassint
threshold (around 2.37v/cell or 14.22v for a 12v battery), you start
backing the charging rate down to keep the voltage from rising too much
above this point.
This is the "finish" or "absorbtion" step of most good chargers -- as
the battery approaches full, limit the voltage so it doesn't gas or heat
up too much.
Now it gets entertaining. The battery is approximately full; but you
don't know exactly how full it is. You could back off the voltage to a
safe "float" voltage (about 2.25v/cell or 13.5v for a 12v battery). This
voltage can be safely left on for months; but it takes days to actually
reach 100% charged at this voltage.
This is the "float" or "maintenance" charging step that some chargers
have.
If you want to reach full sooner, you need to apply a higher voltage or
more current. But how much more? You have to guess. Here are some ideas:
- Apply a higher voltage for a fixed length of time. For instance,
1-2 hours at 2.5v/cell or 15v is usually enough to reach full for a
good battery that isn't too old or too cold.
- Apply a low current for a fixed time. For instance, 2-4 amps per
100ah of capacity. What you're trying to do is put in an extra
2% to 4% more amphours to allow for the charge efficiency being]
less than 100%. But for this to work, you need to know the battery's
actual amphour capacity.
- Call me, and find out how many amphours I took out. Add 2% to 4%,
and keep putting in power (and any reasonable voltage and current)
until that many amphours are returned. This is Hawker's 6-hour
charging algorithm. Few chargers actually do it, because they don't
actually know the amphours removed.
- Keep charging until the voltage stops rising, or the current stops
falling. It works by assuming that the battery temperature will
start to rise when it reaches full, and this will cause the charging
voltage and/or current to change the direction it was moving in.
This is the dv/dt or di/dt algorithm used in many large industrial
chargers. It works best for batteries that can tolerate mild
overcharging on a routine basis, like floodeds.
And there are lots more. Pulsing chargers, alternating charge/discharge
algorithms, ones that actually discharge the battery first so the
charger knows what state it is in, etc. Then there are algorithms that
assume something is wrong with the battery, and attempt to correct for
it. They are usually too brutal to do for every cycle, but may be
necessary once in a while for abused batteries.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Peter writes:
> > 200ah cells should be minimum size for any ev or you will run
> > into problems with available power not capacity.
Noel writes:
> How did GM get good acceleration and range with their Ovonic
> 13.2v 85Ah NiMH batteries?
Different chemistry.
Peter and Victor were discussing 200Ah cells as a minimum in the context of
*Lithium Ion* batteries, which have a lower useful discharge rate (relative to
cell size) than the other common battery chemistries.
Cheers,
Claudio
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Hey, you forgot battery temperature. The ideal charging algorithm will
change depending on battery temperature, which seldom seems to get
factored in. It changes the battery's open circuit voltage for one, so
a cold fully charged battery and a partially charged warm battery may
have the same cell voltage. And the ideal constant-voltage charge or
float varies is the opposite, it's higher for lower temps.
http://www.powerstream.com/SLA.htm
I'm really not sure how much it affects the charge cycle in the real
world, but the numbers certainly look significant since these are often
charged far from room temp, for lead acid at least.
Danny
Lee Hart wrote:
The problem is that the "best" charging algorithm CHANGES depending not
only on the particular type and model of battery, but also on its
condition and recent history. A charger that always applies the same
algorithm will be right sometimes, and wrong other times.
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Personally I don't like cents per mile, because it focuses on the
dollar cost of driving a vehicle.
I'm not building an EV because I want to save money. I'm trying to
reduce the other negative externalities of burning gasoline (pollution,
greenhouse gases, politics, terrorism, etc).
In other words, I consider a penny of gasoline to be much more
"expensive" than a penny of electricity.
I think cents per mile should only be used if it's included in a table
of other costs per mile, such as:
Energy per mile (Kwh, BTUs, gallons of gasoline)
Energy *wasted* per mile (well-to-wheels analysis required)
Atmospheric carbon added per mile (pounds or kilograms)
Global temperature increase per mile (degrees)
Deaths per mile (war+respiratory illness+cancer+etc.)
Tax dollars spent per mile (oil/electric subsidies, environmental
cleanup, infrastructure)
IQ points lost per mile (assuming the tax dollars had gone into
education instead)
Refueling time per mile (minutes)
etc.
Cost per mile is only one metric, and in my case, one of the least
important ones.
If I had to boil it down to one metric, it would be very subjective.
It would include the above, plus factors that are nearly impossible to
quantify such as enjoyment of the conversion process, convenience, and
national security. I'd call it Smiles Per Mile. If I lived in a
different country, I might call it Kicks per Klick.
On Aug 16, 2005, at 10:08 AM, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Cents per mile also helps when energy costs are different. In Seattle
you drive an electric for 1 cent a mile. In California it is 1.5
cents per mile. In N.Y. It is 3 cents etc.etc.....LR...........
----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Houck"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:44 AM
Subject: Re: [toyota-prius] MPG vs. NGM:Now cents per mile.
I agree that MPG limits the vocabulary. Using MPG narrows the range
of thought to one vehicle using one type of energy and limits easy
comparison. Cents per mile is better, frees us from talking about one
vehicle. How much per mile does it cost to EV? Bicycle? Take the
train? Bus?
Figure out your personal CPM and post it!
-HH (longtime lurker, longtime thinkerer)
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
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