EV Digest 4640
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) EV's used in the Lexus Hybrid commercial
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: SAMS CLUB GC2 STOWAWAY GOLF CART BATTERY
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: SAMS CLUB GC2 STOWAWAY GOLF CART BATTERY
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV's used in the Lexus Hybrid commercial
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV's used in the Lexus Hybrid commercial
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: adapter plate business...
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV's used in the Lexus Hybrid commercial
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: EV's used in the Lexus Hybrid commercial
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: RS232 isolation question
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted.
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: The Saturn is Alive!
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: testing used batteries
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Todd DC to DC Converter
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: E-Meter, Ah counters, who needs 'em?
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted.
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted.
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted.
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted.
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: adapter plate business...
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: John Wayland does Radio Talk Show
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted.
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: 75mpg Hybrid you can build.
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) So what does it take?
by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Safety - AC/DC, voltage, current
by "Ben Haines" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Safety - AC/DC, voltage, current
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: John Wayland does Radio Talk Show
by "Rick Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I tend to agree. The isolated sender doesn't need to send a lot of
information. I would tend to think just a low level SPI-type interface
can work just as well. OK, I haven't done EVs and I try to remember
that, but the data freq can be low, perhaps oversampled, and should
naturally be shielded so I don't imagine a big noise issue. Especially
if there is a sanity check on the data and a way to reset the bus.
I'm not familiar with RS-485, but assuming it's functionally similar to
RS-232 there's no specified support for multiple transmitters sharing a
bus though such a thing can be hacked together but in doing so it may no
longer be an industry standard bus. Multiple receivers would usually be
fine of course.
The logical answer to me would be a design-specific bus between the
isolated sender and the head unit. The head should logically be the
smart component that integrated current consumption over time rather
than the sender IMHO. The link with the sender is already going to have
some odd requirements on it due to the isolation requirements so I
wouldn't try to open that link up to just any use.
Danny
Lee Hart wrote:
If all you're doing is splitting an E-meter type device in half, all you
need are wires between them. It doesn't have to be a bus, since nothing
else ever ties to them.
A bus is only necessary if the product is not self-contained. An E-meter
doesn't need a bus. A charger doesn't need a bus. A controller doesn't
need a bus. They don't need to communicate with each other.
But, we can enhance functionality if they did communicate. For instance,
a charger can ask an E-meter how many amphours were removed, so it can
do a better job charging. The controller can find out if there's a low
battery, and cut back to avoid harming it.
If chargers, controllers, BMS sytems, GPS, Media players can all
use this bus, then redundent wiring is reduced.
Maybe; done badly, it would *add* extra wiring and create new problems
(higher cost, harder to fix, weird interactions and problems).
I know #2 is a very controversal item but it will be very difficult
if not impossible to enforce the implementation later.
It's very difficult if not impossible to establish now! :-)
A "bus" is only used when more than one device needs to tie into the
same signals. So there is no need for a bus in most EV devices.
A "standard" bus is only used when more than one COMPANY is going to
build devices to tie into that bus. Most companies oppose standard
buses, seeing them as limiting their sales and helping competitors. So
they only use standard buses when dragged into it, kicking and
screaming.
To get EV suppliers to use some standard bus, you have to find a way to
force them into it. There will have to be some device, not made by the
company, that *must* (at least in the eyes of marketing managers or
customers) be supported by your new product. For instance, if Victor's
Evision *must* talk to the Siemens controller for him to sell it, then
he has no choice but to use whatever bus Siemens used in their
controller.
Pick an existing standard that handles well many differnt suppliers and
users and would allow equipment to coexist on a buss
Establish a governing body that allows suppliers to register a company
code with.
Fine ideas; but they take a lot of time and money. Most EV suppliers are
"starving artists" that don't have the resources to support such an
effort.
so if Otmar has vendor code "D5 AA 96"
and Rich has vender code "D5 AA AD"...
I like this idea. It leads to a multi-master message-based network
rather than a master/slave based network. But it's harder to program;
programmers naturally resist it in favor of the simpler master-slave
system.
Side note (where the auto industry has actually done a good
job, because they were forced to by the service sector and
the government) is the ECU
Agreed; see above.
I have looked at data from my GM ECU and it is in this manner.
Yes; many CAN systems use this message-based approach.
about $100 from a wrecking yard. Has anyone thought about using
one of these [automotive ECUs] as a robust platform for charge
control or regen control or ....
It is certainly a good idea. But difficult to make work in practice. The
auto companies make these "black boxes" as inscrutible as they can. They
actively work to make them hard to "hack". The data we have on them is
mostly reverse-engineered or leaked by some sympathetic insiders.
But, you could pick one whose schematics, programming, and other data
technical data has escaped somehow "onto the net" so you can use it. It
would certainly be a lot more robust than trying to make some toy or
indoor office device work in a car.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm v e r y skeptical of this filming. After all, isn't Toyota
( and by association Lexus) the folks who dreamed up the S T U P I D
slogan.... " and you don't have to Plug it IN ! "
I mean what do all those FINE Pure BEV's and Solar Cars, have to do
with a new Lexus Hybrid.... if not to point out that "You don't have to
plug it in like all these funny True EVs driving by ( or worse
yet...being PASSED UP A T S P E E D by a new Lexus Hybrid...)
I hope we have not been duped.....
I hope.....
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think you'll find that Exide golf car batteries don't give as long a
service life as US Battery or Trojan products.
US Battery will sell at near-wholesale prices directly to EV hobbyists,
delivering either through a local Interstate dealer or shipping right to
your door. Contact me offlist (use the address below) for more information.
(Note: I am not affiliated in any way with US Battery.)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Around 1999 I ran on a set of Sam's GC batteries in my S10 conversion,
soon after I got it. The batteries lasted less than a year, but I don't
know how much was from abuse (high current draws) and/or lack of proper
care (charging and balancing). Six of the better ones that came out went
into an ElecTrak that my brother got a couple of years out of before
having to replace them. I have another ET that came with a used set of
these batteries and did OK, so the more gentle use is a better fit? The
new owner of the same converted S10 put in a set of Sam's' batteries a
couple of months ago, so I'll be curious to see how he makes out.
My only concrete complaint is that they didn't have the hook to attach a
handle when it comes time to take them out, making it hard to lift the
first one out.
Cwarman wrote:
Wonder if these batterys would work on my s10 conversion ? 144vlt
conversion..
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I remember a commercial when I was a kid. Showed 2 identical cars in a race
track. They started with the same amount of gas, one went 55, the other went
faster (but not sure how much faster).
The one going faster ran out of gas first and they filmed the slower one
lapping it and said "see, if you drive slower, you can drive FARTHER 0-o
No mention that the faster car had lapped the slower car first and it was
just catching up.
It didn't run long, guess someone finally went DOH!!, slapped their forhead
and pulled it as stupid propaganda (gah, took a few minutes to remember that
word) that anyone with a brain wouldn't believe.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 11:47 PM
Subject: EV's used in the Lexus Hybrid commercial
I'm v e r y skeptical of this filming. After all, isn't Toyota (
and by association Lexus) the folks who dreamed up the S T U P I D
slogan.... " and you don't have to Plug it IN ! "
I mean what do all those FINE Pure BEV's and Solar Cars, have to do with
a new Lexus Hybrid.... if not to point out that "You don't have to plug it
in like all these funny True EVs driving by ( or worse yet...being PASSED
UP A T S P E E D by a new Lexus Hybrid...)
I hope we have not been duped.....
I hope.....
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 30 Aug 2005 at 0:01, Mark McCurdy wrote:
> No mention that the faster car had lapped the slower car first and it was just
> catching up.
All things being equal, the slower car WILL go farther on a given amount of
fuel, whether that fuel is electricity or gasoline. The reason is
aerodynamic drag, which is always higher at higher speeds.
EVs have an efficiency edge already over ICEs, but in most cases it's much
more of an edge in stop and go driving (note that I say "most"). That's why
an EV's city cycle range is greater than its highway range (the opposite of
ICEs).
Range-test your EV at 30 mph and at 60 mph. I can tell you for sure at
which speed your range will be greater.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Well, let's just say that if I were in that situation, I'd just
publish the information on the web and maybe put up a Paypal link
if someone wanted to send me $10 for my trouble.
But then again, I'd like to see more EV's on the road, and that would
override the possible 2 or 3 sales I would see. Conversions cost a
lot of money as it is.
Tim
On Aug 29, 2005, at 4:43 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: August 29, 2005 4:42:59 PM PDT
To: [email protected]
Subject: adapter plate business...
Guy A had his car's tranny measured on CNC table for $300
(or whatever) so he had his adapter plate made using this data.
Guy B who wanted to convert own vehicle (same model), not to
reinvent a wheel and duplicate efforts, asked for the data,
so he can fabricate his own plate as well.
Should guy A give the data for free?
Should he charge every single one approaching him with this question?
What would *you* do in guy A's shoes?
Thanks,
Victor
(Disclaimer - this is not about me, my CRX or the plate for it).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is some but not the massive difference they were claiming.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 12:24 AM
Subject: Re: EV's used in the Lexus Hybrid commercial
On 30 Aug 2005 at 0:01, Mark McCurdy wrote:
No mention that the faster car had lapped the slower car first and it was
just
catching up.
All things being equal, the slower car WILL go farther on a given amount
of
fuel, whether that fuel is electricity or gasoline. The reason is
aerodynamic drag, which is always higher at higher speeds.
EVs have an efficiency edge already over ICEs, but in most cases it's much
more of an edge in stop and go driving (note that I say "most"). That's
why
an EV's city cycle range is greater than its highway range (the opposite
of
ICEs).
Range-test your EV at 30 mph and at 60 mph. I can tell you for sure at
which speed your range will be greater.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steven Lough writes:
> I mean what do all those FINE Pure BEV's and Solar Cars, have to do
> with a new Lexus Hybrid.... if not to point out that "You
> don't have to plug it in like all these funny True EVs driving by
> ( or worse yet...being PASSED UP A T S P E E D by a new Lexus
> Hybrid...)
Or some banal oxymoron like "You don't need to drive a funny car [enter EVs] to
'save' the environment [being passed by Lexus]"
> I hope we have not been duped.....
>
> I hope.....
I don't know whether the owners were duped or not (I imagine the motivation for
offering their EV's was $$ compensation -- not to advance EV interest), but it
seems to me the only reason a manufacturer would put other cars in an car-ad
(i.e. other than the one being promoted) is in order to make unflattering
comparisons.
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes.
Noise immunity.
It won't necessarily be quieter with it grounded or ungrounded in all
installations. Let the user choose to ground it or not ground it depending
on his application.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 4:26 PM
Subject: RS232 isolation question
> List,
>
> Does it make much sense to isolate RS232 ground from the car's chassy?
> If you think yes, why?
>
> Of course provided, it is isolated from the pack and any hi voltage stuff.
>
> Victor
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An ICE gas gauge can be inaccurate because the consequences are pretty
minor. Suppose your gas gauge says half-full and you think "that's enough
to take me to Portland and back." But halfway back the "low fuel" light
comes on. No big deal; there are filling stations every few miles (or
less).
But there are few public EV charging stations, so knowing with some degree
of certainty whether you can make that trip is ^much^ more important with an
EV.
I'm fine with using a reasonably accurate amp-hour counter for that.
Automotive consumers can be outstandingly ignorant, but I find it hard to
believe that most couldn't learn to use an amp-hour counter just as well as
you or I can. If you want, you can make it trivially easy for them by
designing the counter so it counts DOWN from nominal capacity (perhaps
recomputed periodically) to zero.
Maybe even better, provide a supplemental bargraph showing empty at say 20%
SOC and full at 100% SOC. That's an obvious measure of remaining "fuel." I
think they'd do just as well with that as they do a gas gauge - better,
since it's probably more accurate.
Hey, I have another idea!
Remember the pre-1963 VW Beetles? They didn't have gas gauges. Instead
they had a fuel reserve lever - if you forgot to the buy fuel and the car
ran out on the road, you flipped a lever down on the firewall to get another
few miles' worth of go juice so you could get to a filling station.
So, in your EV, set up your controller to talk to the amphour counter. Have
it shut down the car at, say, 35% SOC. Provide a "panic switch" that tells
the controller to run some more - say to 20% SOC - so the driver can get to
a charger.
I'm only half-joking!
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ricky Suiter wrote:
>think I can get by with just adding some of those rubber helper
inserts between >
>the springs.
A better option would to get a couple of these air bags and place them
inside the springs if they are big enough to fit the bag:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&Ntt=air+bag&N=314243&part=EIB%2D9310%2DABK
Or get some custom coils wound..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hawkers make fine EV batteries.
I have some 1996 Hawker EP 38s still in intermittent service.
They produce 60% of their nameplate rating in low current testing like your
seller had done. Mine do not produce 60% of their rating at hundreds of
amps.
You need to test them like you plan to use them. To get an accurate reading,
you need to do about three full cycle tests before you see their potential.
UPS batteries are intended for slow charges followed by long periods on
float, and occasionally being asked to produce some big amps for several
minutes.
The fast way to check their internal resistance is with a starting battery
crank tester. They draw several hundred amps for a few seconds and you read
the voltage at the end of the test. Test several batteries and find out what
is 'normal' for them. If the batteries for sale drop quickly, the internal
resistance is too high and they produce good voltage but will never produce
enough current to move a car.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Clifford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 1:28 PM
Subject: testing used batteries
> I am considering buying some surplus Hawker Genesis EP 70ah 12V batteries
that were removed from UPS service. The seller tested them by discharging
them at 4 amps and measuring the Ah. They are claiming near or over their
rating of 70ah. The series is 2001.
>
> Is this the way to test these?
>
> If I go to the sellers location, how can I test them without discharging
them?
>
> I know UPS batteries are not usually appropriate for traction
applications - but Hawkers are different - Right?
>
> Since they say I'm likely to murder my first pack anyway, I figure if I
can get it cheap and maybe squeeze 200 or 300 cycles out of it, why not?
>
> Thanks in advance for you input.
>
> Carl Clifford
> Denver
> tryin' to get that grin off the ground
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Todd converters are somewhat fragile.
-They don't like to get wet
-They don't like to get dirty
-They like to blow up at any voltage over 180 VDC (especially at end of
charge voltages)
-They are intended to be mounted on end and will overheat if mounted flat
and run at full current.
-They have a huge inrush when initially powered up.
They work fine as long as you:
1) Mount them on end or run them at less than full current.
2) Keep them in a clean, dry and cool location, and
3) Never put more than 180 VDC on them.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cwarman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 1:08 PM
Subject: Todd DC to DC Converter
> Are these a worthy Unit in anyone experience ?
>
> Some background on the system im putting together..
>
> 144vlt system
> Warp 9
> Zilla 1k Controller
> Not sure on Charger yet
>
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the reply, Steve.
On Aug 27, 2005, at 7:08 AM, STEVE CLUNN wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Weathers" >
What I want is not an amp-hour counter but a fuel gauge.
I hear this for allot of people who have not driven an ev with e meter
for 6 months , " All I want is something that will tell me how much
juice I have not allot of numbers " .
So you like the E-meter too.
This is pretty easy to make and you can use old rpm meters , or any
plane meter that masseuses milla amps . most analog meters when you
strip everything away will do. I'm going to talk about on for 12v
battery but could be used for any voltage . first you need some zenor
diodes a 9v ,10v and a 10.5v ( there cheep so even though you won't
be using both , get the to play with) . then some resistors , ( a 1k
resistor will drop 1v on a meter that takes 1 ma full scale ) . what
you want is the meter to read 0 at 10.5 volts and full scale at 15 v .
Now hook the ziner and to start 10 k and the meter all in series ,
getting the +'s and -'s right . a variable power supply is needed
also. Then as you turn up the supply ,also hooked to a militia meter
so you can see what voltage your measuring . watch what you analog
meter is doing and adjust it buy adding different resistors or adding
some plane diodes to raise the voltage that the meter will read 0 at .
. it takes some playing aroung to get it to do just what you want , I
would rather have a plan dmm and read numbers like 11.54 , but thats
me.
Thanks for the instructions - that's just the sort of information I
need.
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 00:50:20 -0400, "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>An ICE gas gauge can be inaccurate because the consequences are pretty
>minor. Suppose your gas gauge says half-full and you think "that's enough
>to take me to Portland and back." But halfway back the "low fuel" light
>comes on. No big deal; there are filling stations every few miles (or
>less).
For the OEMs it is a big deal because of the damage a persistent lean
condition can cause to the catalyst. This situation exists when the
EFI pump starts pulling air and the fuel rail loses pressure.
The apparent problem with the Prius notwithstanding, the cars I have
experience with are quite accurate. My 12 year old Caprice's gas
gauge is very accurate. When the needle lines up with "E", it's time
to start getting ready to walk. The manual says that when the low
fuel light comes on, I have about 50 miles left. When I tested it,
driving until I ran out of gas with a 5 gal gas can in the trunk, it
was almost exactly 50 miles.
My mom's 04 Lincoln LS has a "Miles to empty" display on the status
board. Best I can tell, it's right on the money. I ran it down to
under "5 miles left" once and the thing was cutting out on corners
which is about the last thing it does before quitting. Heck, even the
gauge in my 68 Fury is fairly close. "E" really does mean empty.
>Automotive consumers can be outstandingly ignorant, but I find it hard to
>believe that most couldn't learn to use an amp-hour counter just as well as
>you or I can. If you want, you can make it trivially easy for them by
>designing the counter so it counts DOWN from nominal capacity (perhaps
>recomputed periodically) to zero.
I suppose people could learn to use an amp-hour counter but why should
they have to? Computers are supposed to make our lives easier, not
more difficult. Yeah, it's going to take more work to make a "charge
remaining" gauge with any accuracy but so what? That's just part of
engineering, IMO.
>Hey, I have another idea!
>
>Remember the pre-1963 VW Beetles? They didn't have gas gauges. Instead
>they had a fuel reserve lever - if you forgot to the buy fuel and the car
>ran out on the road, you flipped a lever down on the firewall to get another
>few miles' worth of go juice so you could get to a filling station.
>
>So, in your EV, set up your controller to talk to the amphour counter. Have
>it shut down the car at, say, 35% SOC. Provide a "panic switch" that tells
>the controller to run some more - say to 20% SOC - so the driver can get to
>a charger.
Not a bad idea, really, but to make this work, the instrument would
have to compute the charge remaining fairly accurately. This would be
a feature to have in addition to the charge remaining indicator. Kinda
like the "check fuel" light on a conventional car.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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Batteries are strange beasts.
When they are cold, they act like they are nearly empty, but they're not.
They're just lazy.
One thing I noticed when I was recording all the emeter data from all my
commutes was that the battery impedance went up when getting near empty.
That made the pack sag when current was demanded. I noticed that the pack
was stiff just after being charged and from 90% SOC to 30% SOC the impedance
was pretty much constant. When I got low on charge, the sag got so bad the
car felt sluggish and I knew it was time to charge.
When the Mk 2 battery regulator was designed. A customer wanted a 'low batt'
indicator and a bus that would tell the controller to stop drawing high
currents. This feature was added and few people have used it.
The point I am trying to make is to watch the battery voltage under load and
compute a battery impedance based on the current and the sag. When the
impedance rises, the battery is nearly expended.
One quirk to this technique is that if the battery rests a few minutes, the
impedance drops again and produces a 'reserve' that can push the car several
blocks to reach a destination.
This technique also adjusts to the current being pulled from the battery.
You will get more Ampere hours of capacity when drawing fewer amps and the
indicator will automatically adjust for the difference in current draw.
This technique will not work in steady state driving because you need
changes in the current to measure the impedance.
When the battery gets near dead, it still has energy in it. You can't get
enough of it fast enough to push the car as fast as you want therefore it is
considered expended for your purpose.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 11:23 PM
Subject: Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted.
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 00:50:20 -0400, "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >An ICE gas gauge can be inaccurate because the consequences are pretty
> >minor. Suppose your gas gauge says half-full and you think "that's
enough
> >to take me to Portland and back." But halfway back the "low fuel" light
> >comes on. No big deal; there are filling stations every few miles (or
> >less).
>
> For the OEMs it is a big deal because of the damage a persistent lean
> condition can cause to the catalyst. This situation exists when the
> EFI pump starts pulling air and the fuel rail loses pressure.
>
> The apparent problem with the Prius notwithstanding, the cars I have
> experience with are quite accurate. My 12 year old Caprice's gas
> gauge is very accurate. When the needle lines up with "E", it's time
> to start getting ready to walk. The manual says that when the low
> fuel light comes on, I have about 50 miles left. When I tested it,
> driving until I ran out of gas with a 5 gal gas can in the trunk, it
> was almost exactly 50 miles.
>
> My mom's 04 Lincoln LS has a "Miles to empty" display on the status
> board. Best I can tell, it's right on the money. I ran it down to
> under "5 miles left" once and the thing was cutting out on corners
> which is about the last thing it does before quitting. Heck, even the
> gauge in my 68 Fury is fairly close. "E" really does mean empty.
>
>
> >Automotive consumers can be outstandingly ignorant, but I find it hard to
> >believe that most couldn't learn to use an amp-hour counter just as well
as
> >you or I can. If you want, you can make it trivially easy for them by
> >designing the counter so it counts DOWN from nominal capacity (perhaps
> >recomputed periodically) to zero.
>
> I suppose people could learn to use an amp-hour counter but why should
> they have to? Computers are supposed to make our lives easier, not
> more difficult. Yeah, it's going to take more work to make a "charge
> remaining" gauge with any accuracy but so what? That's just part of
> engineering, IMO.
>
> >Hey, I have another idea!
> >
> >Remember the pre-1963 VW Beetles? They didn't have gas gauges. Instead
> >they had a fuel reserve lever - if you forgot to the buy fuel and the car
> >ran out on the road, you flipped a lever down on the firewall to get
another
> >few miles' worth of go juice so you could get to a filling station.
> >
> >So, in your EV, set up your controller to talk to the amphour counter.
Have
> >it shut down the car at, say, 35% SOC. Provide a "panic switch" that
tells
> >the controller to run some more - say to 20% SOC - so the driver can get
to
> >a charger.
>
> Not a bad idea, really, but to make this work, the instrument would
> have to compute the charge remaining fairly accurately. This would be
> a feature to have in addition to the charge remaining indicator. Kinda
> like the "check fuel" light on a conventional car.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>
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> An ICE gas gauge can be inaccurate
It seems to me the gauge itself is very simple. What about it could
cause it to not be very accurate? What does it consist of and how
does it work?
Maybe it's the sending unit in the tank that is not accurate? When
driving down a bouncy street with a half tank or less; the fuel must
be sloshing around and my fuel gauge is not wildly reflecting that.
How did they make it not report with that type of accuracy?
For EV use, I think the gauge itself would be spot on accurate.
I've changed out so many of these senders in so many cars I hope I
never have to change out another one..
htthttp://www.international-auto.com/images/originals/34285000w2.jpg
The way that float is, I can only imagine it constantly bobbing up and
down when the vehicle is in use. No wonder they wear out.. Same
thing as a "pot box"?
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Typical errors come from:
-Resistance wire displaced in sender (overlapping wraps or broken wire)
-Incorrect part installed (12 inch sender in 16 inch deep tank)
-Bent float wire (siphon hose damage)
-Incorrect reference voltage in dash (darned thermal voltage regulators have
been replaced with silicon parts)
-Bad ground in dash.
My Van has 5 gallons above full and 2 gallons below empty.
My Ford truck I sold 14 years ago would run out of gas showing 1/4 tank.
My motorhome has 13 gallons above full and 12 gallons below empty. It used
to lose 1/4 tank of fuel when the headlights were turned on.
My GMC truck gauges are accurate because I pulled the senders out and
rewound the resistance wire to be evenly spaced. Before that, they were +/-
1/4 tank over the range.
Many gauges are thermal movements and integrate the reading over several
seconds to eliminate the bounce.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted.
> > An ICE gas gauge can be inaccurate
>
> It seems to me the gauge itself is very simple. What about it could
> cause it to not be very accurate? What does it consist of and how
> does it work?
>
> Maybe it's the sending unit in the tank that is not accurate? When
> driving down a bouncy street with a half tank or less; the fuel must
> be sloshing around and my fuel gauge is not wildly reflecting that.
> How did they make it not report with that type of accuracy?
>
> For EV use, I think the gauge itself would be spot on accurate.
>
>
> I've changed out so many of these senders in so many cars I hope I
> never have to change out another one..
>
> htthttp://www.international-auto.com/images/originals/34285000w2.jpg
>
> The way that float is, I can only imagine it constantly bobbing up and
> down when the vehicle is in use. No wonder they wear out.. Same
> thing as a "pot box"?
>
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Well, don't forget that the second guy still has to pay a machine shop
to fabricate the pieces. It's not like the first guy is making two
adapter plates and giving the second one away for free.
On Aug 29, 2005, at 6:34 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: August 29, 2005 5:58:18 PM PDT
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: adapter plate business...
It's not about me, so I can't "give someone a break".
It's about two guys (I don't know friends or not, I
don't know them, and they are not on the list)
wanting to do simialr cars and needing the dimensions.
So one is quietly waiting for another to get it (and 100%
pay for it) to have a free ride. I suspect the first one
does not realize that and will be paying "for himself"
since he needs it anyway (only to be approached later...)
According to most of responses, the first one must pay it
all and "give second one a break" since EVs are already
expensive enough".
But somehow this still doesn't seem fair.
I'm no judge, and can't suggest anything, just heard
the story I wanted to pass on.
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Anyone happen to have a clip of this call-in? I'd like to
hear the reaction of the radio host to this. :-)
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On 8/30/05, Joe Smalley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Batteries are strange beasts.
>
> When the Mk 2 battery regulator was designed. A customer wanted a 'low batt'
> indicator and a bus that would tell the controller to stop drawing high
> currents. This feature was added and few people have used it.
This feature, in conjunction with a decent Ah calculated "%" meter, is
all that my commercial EV has, and it's pretty usable. A picture of
the gauge is here: http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2/berlingo-dash.jpg
When the gauge goes below 20%, you need to be ready for the "limit"
light to come on - this is triggered by low battery voltage. By
driving gently and keeping the amps low, you can keep going even down
to 0% on the gauge.. but then the nicad voltage suddenly falls off a
cliff and you'll be down to walking speed. The sense of this is given
by the orange and then red zones on the dial.
--
EVan
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
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Ahh, now those are much more believable figures.
Thanks for the link.
> Here is the follow-up article...
>
> http://www.motherearthnews.com/top_articles/1980_September_October/Mother_s_Own_Hybrid_Car_
>
> Danny Miller wrote:
>
>> Anybody know the drag coefficient and rolling drag of that Opel? We
>> could calculate just how fast 5 hp would take you... in reality only a
>> portion of that hp will not make it to the wheels in such a setup
>> either.
>>
>> Not only does it brag of 75 mph, inside the article it mentions a 90
>> mph top speed. My question is, just how steep of a hill was it going
>> down at the time?
>>
>> Danny
>>
>> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>>
>>> Larence,
>>> That vehicle has been debunked numerous times. I believe even Mother
>>> Earth printed a statement indicating that they could NOT duplicate the
>>> authors claims.
>>>
>>> The controller doesn't work as described, and a 5hp lawnmower engine
>>> isn't
>>> anywhere near big enough to power that vehicle at highway speeds.
>>> I doubt it could go 75 miles (at highway speeds) on a gallon of gas an
>>> a
>>> full battery pack.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
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So, hypothetically, if I came out with a vehicle design and prototype
today, what would I have to do to get it approved by the DOT? Under
what quantity do I not have to get it approved by the DOT? What are the
requirements? Seatbelts? Airbags? Center labeling?
-Sam
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30mA is enough to kill you (hence RCD's trip at 30mA) which means even
low voltages can be deadly if they get a good path through you (for
arguments sake say you lick it or it brush up on a live terminal with
fresh cut with blood). The extra voltage only makes it more likely that
a larger current will flow :)
A 12 normal car battery is capable of several 1000amps if it has a low
enogh resistance path.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: Sunday, 28 August 2005 3:01 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Safety - AC/DC, voltage, current
Osmo Sarin wrote:
> Trying to make my mind whether to use AC or DC motor in my first
> conversion (yes, the holy battle again...).
Sort of depends on what's available to you and the prices. Have you
located any AC motors and inverters and seen their prices?
> So, I suppose high voltage/low currence is more dangerous than low
> voltage/high currence? But is there any major difference in let say
> 200-400 V range?
You don't want to get shocked at any voltage level.
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On 8/30/05, Ben Haines <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> A 12 normal car battery is capable of several 1000amps if it has a low
> enogh resistance path.
Yes, as a child I remember getting quite a kick off a car battery. I
think it had been brought into the house to warm up and there was
probably condensation on it.
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How about http://www.620knews.com/main.html ?
I am sure they would love to talk to you. I would contact Thom Hartmann.
Here is a link to a chat earlier this month:
http://www.thomhartman.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/5/t/001584.ht
ml#000026
Contact: AM 620 KPOJ
4949 SW Macadam Avenue
Portland, OR 97239
Main Station Phone: 503-323-6400
I'll bet you could spark some local interest in the upcoming Wayland
Invitational at PIR and Woodburn Drag events....
Rick Barnes
Aloha, OR
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 6:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: John Wayland does Radio Talk Show
I've been saying John or you Roderick or any number of quasi famous folk
like the Rev. Gadget. Those with some brains and speech skills. Get one or
all of you on Coast to Coast AM. This program has millions of listeners.
They talk about the cost of gas just about every night. That listener base
is very interested in technical subjects. They mention Hydrogen, diesel
etc. I blew Arts mind one night when I told him of the Tzero. He had no
idea and he is an electronics nut with an acre of ham radio antennas.
Anyone live near Pahrumph, NV or happen to know Art Bell. I bet if you drove
up to Art Bells house he might take a ride. The guy drives a Metro. He's
half way there. Pahrumph is near Las Vegas isn't it? Lawrence
Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 4:34 PM
Subject: John Wayland does Radio Talk Show
>I just got a call from my friend and fellow Amphead John Wayland. He
>played
>me a recording of a conservative talk show he called into and blew the
>hosts mind about performance EVs. He was one of these typical types that
>believes that EVs are gutless and slow. He even gave out Johns URL for
>Plasma Boy Racing. John told me the hits to his site were going crazy. Way
>to go, John! Maybe there will be a few more spectators at Woodburn this
>year to see for themselves.
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
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>
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