EV Digest 4677
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: RPM question
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Madman update
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Pickup aero with 25% range increase, Re: Closed tailgate of the truck
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Help on BMS Pricing
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV pulbicity Re: Montreal Gazette article today, Sept. 6
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 924 EV
by "Ray Brooks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: 924 EV
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: NEDRA race location change?
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Long range RE: Frustr. of AC vs. DC; batt. tech. for newbies;
philosophizing
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Help on BMS Pricing
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: 924 EV
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Considering two different van types as conversion candidates, who
knows about these?
by Paul Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Help with battery wiring
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Long range RE: Frustr. of AC vs. DC; batt. tech. for newbies;
philosophizing
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Long range RE: Frustr. of AC vs. DC; batt. tech. for newbies;
philosophizing
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Help with battery wiring
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: 924 EV
by Andrew Sackville-West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
google "tachometer circuit"
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Stefano Landi
Sent: September 8, 2005 4:37 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RPM question
A thread on this must have shot through the EVDL many a time, could someone
be so kind as to indicate the archive if you happen to know. I did Google it
but never came across anything, then again it was 3 AM when I did that.
Basically I'm looking for a circuit/idea for making an RPM for my upcoming
D & D / Altrax / 72V US battery Ford Festiva conversion.
Any help would be appreciated.
Stefano
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Rich I'll have it out to you either tomorrow or latest by monday. Hey what
can I say John breaks stuff faster than I can fix it (Although John blames Tim)
lmao. Also I was told that the springs and the holders can be powder coated.
I'm hoping for not only a nice insulation factor but a nice custom look which
will match the chosen housing color.
Cya
Jim
Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ummm Jim.....
I know you are having some fun...
But I need that field case and coils.... so I can break something for your
to fix also...
All you guys are making me feel guilty for not breaking something on Goldie.
Front Old Yts are out.... new Orbs are installed and kinda wired... Making
for really fast and easy Motor service.... AKA the modified motor can be
added.
Madman
---------------------------------
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Victor, Arthur and All,
Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Always better as making the truck bed "shallower".
That's a fairly broad statement as some covers on some trucks have
higher aero drag than a shut tailgate.
The cool thing with an EV is it's fairly easy to find out. Try with
a sheet of ply, with the gate open and it closed and just read the amps on the
same stretch of road at the same speed when the air is still like early in the
morning in some places.
I'd bet on most the closed tailgate will have the same or lower
than the cover and the open tailgate the worst drag.
Why is because like the engineer's letter on the earlier post said,
a bubble of slowed air forms above the bed because of the tailgate being closed
and makes a fairing above the bed allowing the air to come together ,
converging behind the truck rather than forming large diverging vortexes which
cause even more air to move and how much air you move and how far is what aero
drag is. Nothing else, just how much air you move.
The same thing is happening in front of a car/truck is the air slows
down in front of it many feet away and form a fairing that if not forced hard
like with a veritcal windshield, will self fair into the mid body which if
smooth and gently curves inward bringing the air back together somewhere behind
the vehicle, has very little drag.
However if the rear is rounded, it sheds diverging vortexes increasing
drag. But if cut off sharpely, Kammback style, it continues inward converging
a short ways behind the vehicle thus moving less air, thus having less drag.
The best way on a pickup is having a 1' larger shell than the cab with
rounded front corners that gather the airstreams which because they are
pressurized attach, then gently curves around to back inward with a sharpe
cutoff in the rear on both the top, sides will cut your drag 25% or more and by
far the cheapest way to get longer range in a pickup at 50mph or more.. Or cut
your batt pack, controller, motor size 25%+ for the same range. So your choice,
better aero or more money, weight. Someday EV'ers are going to actually wake up
to this. PS, this works on ICE trucks too.
But I'm not an aero engineer.
I'm not going to touch that one ;^D
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
Victor
arthur marquardt wrote:
> What about tonneau covers less or more drag?
>>Stay Charged!
>>
>>Hump
>>
>>
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
---------------------------------
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
I am curious how much you would pay for such a system
if I make it available. Please send responds directly
to me at EdAng at airlabcorp dot com.
http://www.airlabcorp.com/EWS_Sheet.pdf
Thanks.
Ed Ang
______________________________________________________
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Doug and All,
Doug Hartley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Jerry, Noel, and all,
Thanks for your encouragement!
I was called today to come into the CBC studio Saturday morning to be
interviewed for CBC Radio One, All in the Weekend program. It should be
another opportunity to spread the word some more.
Cool, take some more website URLs like Plasmaboy's, ect so they can
put them up on their website and talk about John's and Berbe's? Current
Eliminator dragster to help dispell the notions EV must be slow.. That with
your dispelling they are short range takes away their excuses against EV's.
Talk about small engined battery dominated hybrids would be good too.
Is it broadcast on the web?
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus"
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 3:40 PM
Subject: EV pulbicity Re: Montreal Gazette article today, Sept. 6
> Hi Doug and All,
> Way to go Doug !!
> There is starting to be a lot of EV related articles
> especially on the plug in Prius project that has did full page spreads and
> smaller articles and many mentions other the last month, Probably 30 times
> I noticed on TV or the paper.
> The Local TV talk show Kathy Fountain want me to be a
> show as soon as I have a Freedom EV running.
> So all you out there call in your local talk shows,
> write your local papers and tell them about the joys of EV's. .Mention
> the jobs, national, economic security aspects of it too as that gets the
> attention of many who wouldn't consider them before.
> Now is the time to counter act the misinformation the
> auto companies have been spreading.
> Thanks,
> Jerry Dycus
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The 924 & 944 have the engine & clutch in the front and the transaxle in the
rear.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 6:42 PM
Subject: RE: 924 EV
> Is not the 924 a front engined water cooled rear wheel drive car? If you
> wanted to put in a 911 or VW transaxle up front, would you end up making
it
> a front wheel drive? Yikes! That might be a bit of work!
>
> Or did you plan on putting the transaxle and motor in the rear? I expect
you
> would have to get out the cutting torch to replace a differential with a
> transaxle, they are quite a bit bigger.
>
> Do not forget you will have to rework all the shifting mechanism as well
as
> clutch mechanism. This is not easy work.
>
> If you want to do this simply to get around building a custom adapter
plate,
> don't bother. Adapter plates can be built very rough and crude indeed if
> you are too cheap to spend the money. See grassrootsev.com
>
> I am sure ElectroAutomotive or your local machine shop can set you up with
a
> quality adapter plate at the lowest possible cost.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Ray Brooks
> Sent: September 8, 2005 7:32 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: 924 EV
>
> I wonder how hard it would be to adapt a 911 or even a VW type 1 transaxle
> to the 924 chassis. The only real challenge would be the inner CV joints
and
> with a little luck those may either fit perfectly or require minor
fiddling.
> With the above mentioned transaxles the adaptor bits are readily
available.
> The electric motor would be mounted in the back of the car eliminating the
> weight of the forward bellhousing, driveshaft, etc.
>
> If the VW tranny would work it would save a lot of money vs the 911 trans
> and would probably have a more usable 4th gear.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In common definition, what exactly is the difference between
transaxle and transmission?
Don Cameron wrote:
Andrew, take a look at the motor power curves and calculate the torque at
various speeds for the wheels. You will soon see that you need some sort of
gear reduction. Once you do this, then plot the power curve with your fixed
gear, and you will realize that a single gear will be a compromise between
acceleration and top speed (sometimes a drastic compromise). This may be OK
for a NEV, but for a highway EV, it is too much of a compromise.
This is why most on-road and highway EVs use the transmission.
Don
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's a shame that more people don't attend NEDRA races at Woodburn. A
better venue would help but the basic problem is that not very many
people are interested in racing of battery electric vehicles.
What better way to get more people interested than to race at a venue
like PIR during some gas races? Wayland is making converts among those
most likely to race in the future (ie existing gasser racers). I think
that if more current street legal gas racers were exposed to NEDRA and
if events were held in a town with some decent population, we'd have
more new racers participating.
Staying out in the sticks at Woodburn with current racers like yourself
contemplating just giving up on electric drag racing seems like a
downward spiral. I'm convinced that Electric Drag Racing has an audience
and a market. It just has not been presented nor marketed well to date,
due to a current lack of resources and organization.
Again, just an opinion.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob, here is what my weak memory seems to remember of Lithium users: Check
the archives for more info.
- John Lussmyer and TS
- Jukka using TS for a motorcycle and maybe a car(??)
-- a fellow in the UK has his yellow solar van (with portable windmill)
using TS
- Lee Hart has some test TS, he might be using them in an EV project.
- Victor, of course, using TS with ultra caps
- Cliff at ProEV.com using Kokam
- Someone using TS for their motorcycle
Also search EVAlbum.com for "Lithium", there are a few other users listed.
As far as a BMS system goes, that I am not sure that one exists in
production form. Victor is working on one. John Lussmyer also is working
on one. Send them a note for current status. Valance batteries have one
built into their batteries. Some lithium battery manufacturers "suggest"
that they have them also. (www.splendidbattery.com)
You may also want to ask Cliff at ProEV.com on what BMS he uses for his
Kokam batteries. Although this is a high voltage AC system he uses, he may
have some helpful info on a practical BMS. He is really running the Kokam's
though their paces with his racing.
I **think** if you need lower voltage/higher amperage lithium (say for a low
voltage DC) cannot the cells simply be put in parallel/series for the
appropriate current/voltage? If a BMS had overvoltage protection per cell,
would this work for a series/parallel arrangement? I will let other with
this kind of knowledge comment.
As for actual batteries, I only have a few names, but I am sure many more
exist:
Thundersky www.thunder-sky.com - makers of the famed half-rated LiIon
Kokam www.kokam.com - makers of flat LiPoly batteries
Advanced Batteries www.splendidbattery.com - LiPoly batteries, not known if
any one on this list uses them
Valance www.valence.com - supposed safe Lithium batteries in Group form
using ultra whizzy Saphion technology
Keep us up to date on what you find out.
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Bath
Sent: September 8, 2005 4:56 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Long range RE: Frustr. of AC vs. DC; batt. tech. for newbies;
philosophizing
--- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jerry, good point. A lighter vehicle and or more aero vehicle is a
> great way to improve range.
I'm at 45 mi. range max with 144V of floodies in a _Honda Civic_. I have no
space left to safely (GVWR) put them!
> Don
>
> * People are using Lithium batteries with lower voltage DC systems.
>
Anyone want to steer me to a post on this? I'm ready to pony up more cash
for batts. and a regulator system, if they exist...
> * People are using Lead Acid with high voltage AC systems.
Of course, with careful BMS/regulation.
>
>
> I think your complaint is simple. It has little to do with AC or DC,
> high or low voltage. Your complaint is the standard: current battery
> technology sucks and does not allow us the range we get with our ICE
> vehicles. Either that, or better range is just too darn expensive.
>
> Let's see if I've got this straight...
>
> If we want longer range and less space/weight in our rigs taken up by
> batteries, the current solution is to move from flooded lead acid to
> LiPo.
>
> But LiPos can't have hard current pulls. So we have to compensate with
> higher voltages.
>
> But our DC series wound (cheap) motors can't take the higher voltages,
> but _are_ made for higher current.
>
> So we upgrade to an AC controller and motor that does _best_ with
> higher voltages & lower current.
>
> But the LiPo batteries also need careful thermal regulation on current
> both on driving, and on charging. And the controllers in some cases
> need water cooling, adding yet another layer of complexity.
>
> In summary, we either drive a $6-9,000 DC floodie EV with short range,
> or we drive a $50,000 AC LiPo EV using some parts from corporations
> (Siemens, Metric Mind), and others that either our fellow hobbyists
> are cranking out, or which we cobble together from a schematic
> ourselves.
>
> Ummm, door number three, people? (Bide our time for LiPo regulation to
> become more ubiquitous? Wait for the Subaru and Mitsubishi EVs to hit
> the
> markets?)
>
> If Toyota is sitting on a pile of cash, _they_ would seem to be the
> best candidate to (re)-introduce EVs, and eat some R&D startup costs,
> _not_ Mitsubishi heavy Ind. or Subaru...
>
> And what about the heat pumps that were in the RAV4_EV? Who made them?
> Where can we get them?
>
> Is that about where us on-roaders are, or am I missing something after
> 6 years on the list?
> peace,
>
>
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the
> steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ed, what do you propose for the BMS to do?
- per cell overvoltage protection?
- supplement charge low cells? During charge and discharge?
- allow pseudo real-time feedback of voltage monitoring to instrumentation?
I think if you first follow Victor's, Otmar's and Rich's lead on asking what
people want, then you may get a better idea of what will be paid for it.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Edward Ang
Sent: September 8, 2005 5:16 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Help on BMS Pricing
All,
I am curious how much you would pay for such a system if I make it
available. Please send responds directly to me at EdAng at airlabcorp dot
com.
http://www.airlabcorp.com/EWS_Sheet.pdf
Thanks.
Ed Ang
______________________________________________________
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Transaxles include a differential. Transmissions do not.
However, transaxles are often (incorrectly) called transmissions.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: September 8, 2005 5:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 924 EV
In common definition, what exactly is the difference between transaxle and
transmission?
Don Cameron wrote:
> Andrew, take a look at the motor power curves and calculate the torque
> at various speeds for the wheels. You will soon see that you need
> some sort of gear reduction. Once you do this, then plot the power
> curve with your fixed gear, and you will realize that a single gear
> will be a compromise between acceleration and top speed (sometimes a
> drastic compromise). This may be OK for a NEV, but for a highway EV, it
is too much of a compromise.
>
> This is why most on-road and highway EVs use the transmission.
>
> Don
>
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am thinking about doing a van conversion. I was very tempted by the
Subaru micro van on the Tradin' post, but I'm a little concerned about
the availability of mechanical parts for a car that was never an
official import for Subaru.
I am considering two different vans. The most plentiful is the 1980s
Toyota, before the Previa and Sienna. There were several models,
including a 4wd. So far, I don't have a curb weight or gross vehicle
weight so I don't know if they can haul batteries. I would want to put
the batteries under the floor so I'll need to measure ground clearance.
They have the engine mounted between the front seats in a box which
might make motor adaptors a little tricky. There are several web sites
for these vans, particularly the 4wd version.
The second van is a late 1970's/early 1980s Mitsubishi. So far I
haven't found a web site for these. They don't appear to be as aero as
the Toyota.
Does anyone have experience with either of these vans? If so, have you
looked inside the engine bay of the Toyota and can you give me a notion
as to the possibility of wedging a 9" ADC or similar in the space?
Paul Wallace
'91 Chevy S-10 full of SAFT nicads
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is probably a bad idea to run any high capacity wiring inside the
passenger area. I have chosen to run 2 outdoor rated conduits under the
floor of my car where the exhaust system used to be. I will be keeping the
positives and negatives apart, and they will provide routing for my battery
monitoring cable (multiconductor RS-232 cable), a 30 amp circuit for vacuum
pump, 12v chargers, etc.
Seems a lot safer to me, very economical to do and no need to pull up the
carpet.
Mark Ward
St. Charles, MO
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 11:16 AM
Subject: Re: Help with battery wiring
Ok, I have revised my drawing.
Now one last question (yeah right)
Do I run the cable down the hole for the fuel sending unit and under
the car where the fuel lines were to the engine compartment? Probably
best in a conduit.
Or
Do I run it under the carpet and find/make a hole thru the firewall to
the engine compartment?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Don and All,
You missed about the most sucessful based on mile, range with
Li-ions, Doug Hartley with his Li-ion/ AGM hybrid packs
http://us.f410.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter?MsgId=1363_97935_39932_2677_3931_0_265705_7736_2496986217&Idx=54&YY=53636&inc=25&order=down&sort=date&pos=2&view=a&head=b&box=Inbox
Well that's my first copy/paste of a URL, we'll see if it works
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Bob, here is what my weak memory seems to remember of Lithium users: Check
the archives for more info.
- John Lussmyer and TS
- Jukka using TS for a motorcycle and maybe a car(??)
-- a fellow in the UK has his yellow solar van (with portable windmill)
using TS
- Lee Hart has some test TS, he might be using them in an EV project.
- Victor, of course, using TS with ultra caps
- Cliff at ProEV.com using Kokam
- Someone using TS for their motorcycle
Also search EVAlbum.com for "Lithium", there are a few other users listed.
As far as a BMS system goes, that I am not sure that one exists in
production form. Victor is working on one. John Lussmyer also is working
on one. Send them a note for current status. Valance batteries have one
built into their batteries. Some lithium battery manufacturers "suggest"
that they have them also. (www.splendidbattery.com)
You may also want to ask Cliff at ProEV.com on what BMS he uses for his
Kokam batteries. Although this is a high voltage AC system he uses, he may
have some helpful info on a practical BMS. He is really running the Kokam's
though their paces with his racing.
I **think** if you need lower voltage/higher amperage lithium (say for a low
voltage DC) cannot the cells simply be put in parallel/series for the
appropriate current/voltage? If a BMS had overvoltage protection per cell,
would this work for a series/parallel arrangement? I will let other with
this kind of knowledge comment.
As for actual batteries, I only have a few names, but I am sure many more
exist:
Thundersky www.thunder-sky.com - makers of the famed half-rated LiIon
Kokam www.kokam.com - makers of flat LiPoly batteries
Advanced Batteries www.splendidbattery.com - LiPoly batteries, not known if
any one on this list uses them
Valance www.valence.com - supposed safe Lithium batteries in Group form
using ultra whizzy Saphion technology
Keep us up to date on what you find out.
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Bath
Sent: September 8, 2005 4:56 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Long range RE: Frustr. of AC vs. DC; batt. tech. for newbies;
philosophizing
--- Don Cameron wrote:
> Jerry, good point. A lighter vehicle and or more aero vehicle is a
> great way to improve range.
I'm at 45 mi. range max with 144V of floodies in a _Honda Civic_. I have no
space left to safely (GVWR) put them!
> Don
>
> * People are using Lithium batteries with lower voltage DC systems.
>
Anyone want to steer me to a post on this? I'm ready to pony up more cash
for batts. and a regulator system, if they exist...
> * People are using Lead Acid with high voltage AC systems.
Of course, with careful BMS/regulation.
>
>
> I think your complaint is simple. It has little to do with AC or DC,
> high or low voltage. Your complaint is the standard: current battery
> technology sucks and does not allow us the range we get with our ICE
> vehicles. Either that, or better range is just too darn expensive.
>
> Let's see if I've got this straight...
>
> If we want longer range and less space/weight in our rigs taken up by
> batteries, the current solution is to move from flooded lead acid to
> LiPo.
>
> But LiPos can't have hard current pulls. So we have to compensate with
> higher voltages.
>
> But our DC series wound (cheap) motors can't take the higher voltages,
> but _are_ made for higher current.
>
> So we upgrade to an AC controller and motor that does _best_ with
> higher voltages & lower current.
>
> But the LiPo batteries also need careful thermal regulation on current
> both on driving, and on charging. And the controllers in some cases
> need water cooling, adding yet another layer of complexity.
>
> In summary, we either drive a $6-9,000 DC floodie EV with short range,
> or we drive a $50,000 AC LiPo EV using some parts from corporations
> (Siemens, Metric Mind), and others that either our fellow hobbyists
> are cranking out, or which we cobble together from a schematic
> ourselves.
>
> Ummm, door number three, people? (Bide our time for LiPo regulation to
> become more ubiquitous? Wait for the Subaru and Mitsubishi EVs to hit
> the
> markets?)
>
> If Toyota is sitting on a pile of cash, _they_ would seem to be the
> best candidate to (re)-introduce EVs, and eat some R&D startup costs,
> _not_ Mitsubishi heavy Ind. or Subaru...
>
> And what about the heat pumps that were in the RAV4_EV? Who made them?
> Where can we get them?
>
> Is that about where us on-roaders are, or am I missing something after
> 6 years on the list?
> peace,
>
>
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
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> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the
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>
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'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
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Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry Jerry, no such luck on the URL - it says "your login has expired". I
presume you were pasting an email note? If so, it probably will not work as
this is private to your account. How about cut and paste of email note?
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of jerry dycus
Sent: September 8, 2005 6:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Long range RE: Frustr. of AC vs. DC; batt. tech. for newbies;
philosophizing
Hi Don and All,
You missed about the most sucessful based on mile, range
with Li-ions, Doug Hartley with his Li-ion/ AGM hybrid packs
http://us.f410.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter?MsgId=1363_97935_39932_2677_3931
_0_265705_7736_2496986217&Idx=54&YY=53636&inc=25&order=down&sort=date&pos=2&
view=a&head=b&box=Inbox
Well that's my first copy/paste of a URL, we'll see if it
works
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Bob, here is what my weak memory seems to remember of Lithium users: Check
the archives for more info.
- John Lussmyer and TS
- Jukka using TS for a motorcycle and maybe a car(??)
-- a fellow in the UK has his yellow solar van (with portable windmill)
using TS
- Lee Hart has some test TS, he might be using them in an EV project.
- Victor, of course, using TS with ultra caps
- Cliff at ProEV.com using Kokam
- Someone using TS for their motorcycle
Also search EVAlbum.com for "Lithium", there are a few other users listed.
As far as a BMS system goes, that I am not sure that one exists in
production form. Victor is working on one. John Lussmyer also is working on
one. Send them a note for current status. Valance batteries have one built
into their batteries. Some lithium battery manufacturers "suggest"
that they have them also. (www.splendidbattery.com)
You may also want to ask Cliff at ProEV.com on what BMS he uses for his
Kokam batteries. Although this is a high voltage AC system he uses, he may
have some helpful info on a practical BMS. He is really running the Kokam's
though their paces with his racing.
I **think** if you need lower voltage/higher amperage lithium (say for a low
voltage DC) cannot the cells simply be put in parallel/series for the
appropriate current/voltage? If a BMS had overvoltage protection per cell,
would this work for a series/parallel arrangement? I will let other with
this kind of knowledge comment.
As for actual batteries, I only have a few names, but I am sure many more
exist:
Thundersky www.thunder-sky.com - makers of the famed half-rated LiIon Kokam
www.kokam.com - makers of flat LiPoly batteries Advanced Batteries
www.splendidbattery.com - LiPoly batteries, not known if any one on this
list uses them Valance www.valence.com - supposed safe Lithium batteries in
Group form using ultra whizzy Saphion technology
Keep us up to date on what you find out.
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Bath
Sent: September 8, 2005 4:56 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Long range RE: Frustr. of AC vs. DC; batt. tech. for newbies;
philosophizing
--- Don Cameron wrote:
> Jerry, good point. A lighter vehicle and or more aero vehicle is a
> great way to improve range.
I'm at 45 mi. range max with 144V of floodies in a _Honda Civic_. I have no
space left to safely (GVWR) put them!
> Don
>
> * People are using Lithium batteries with lower voltage DC systems.
>
Anyone want to steer me to a post on this? I'm ready to pony up more cash
for batts. and a regulator system, if they exist...
> * People are using Lead Acid with high voltage AC systems.
Of course, with careful BMS/regulation.
>
>
> I think your complaint is simple. It has little to do with AC or DC,
> high or low voltage. Your complaint is the standard: current battery
> technology sucks and does not allow us the range we get with our ICE
> vehicles. Either that, or better range is just too darn expensive.
>
> Let's see if I've got this straight...
>
> If we want longer range and less space/weight in our rigs taken up by
> batteries, the current solution is to move from flooded lead acid to
> LiPo.
>
> But LiPos can't have hard current pulls. So we have to compensate with
> higher voltages.
>
> But our DC series wound (cheap) motors can't take the higher voltages,
> but _are_ made for higher current.
>
> So we upgrade to an AC controller and motor that does _best_ with
> higher voltages & lower current.
>
> But the LiPo batteries also need careful thermal regulation on current
> both on driving, and on charging. And the controllers in some cases
> need water cooling, adding yet another layer of complexity.
>
> In summary, we either drive a $6-9,000 DC floodie EV with short range,
> or we drive a $50,000 AC LiPo EV using some parts from corporations
> (Siemens, Metric Mind), and others that either our fellow hobbyists
> are cranking out, or which we cobble together from a schematic
> ourselves.
>
> Ummm, door number three, people? (Bide our time for LiPo regulation to
> become more ubiquitous? Wait for the Subaru and Mitsubishi EVs to hit
> the
> markets?)
>
> If Toyota is sitting on a pile of cash, _they_ would seem to be the
> best candidate to (re)-introduce EVs, and eat some R&D startup costs,
> _not_ Mitsubishi heavy Ind. or Subaru...
>
> And what about the heat pumps that were in the RAV4_EV? Who made them?
> Where can we get them?
>
> Is that about where us on-roaders are, or am I missing something after
> 6 years on the list?
> peace,
>
>
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the
> steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
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=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jeff,
Here is how I run all my cables and wires from the rear of the car to the
front. It will take a lot of modification, but you will find that as time goes
on, you will pulling more wire in and updating as needed.
I used black 3/4-inch, 1-inch, 1-1/2-inch and 2 inch black wire looms. The 3/4
and 1 inch is the standard split type, the 1-1/2 and 2 inch is not split.
The 1-1/2-inch and 2-inch is actually black plastic vacuum cleaner hose that
looks just like wire looms.
For my two heavy 4/0 cables that ran from the batteries to the motor bay, they
ran threw the 2 inch pipe inside the car right down the center between the
seats in the bottom of the center console. Ran a spare empty 2 inch, 1 inch,
and 2 3/4 inch for future use.
Also ran all my control wires in wire looms down inside this console, which
works as a wireway. I modified the console, so it extends all the way to the
firewall and all the way back to the rear. This console and wireway has all
removable covers for excess.
The firewall was holesaw for these 2 to 3/4 inch looms to stub into a cast
aluminum junction boxes that has set screw terminal strips and blocks. These
are are all color coded and number.
Ran 3/8, 1/2, and 3/4 wire looms out of these junction boxes to the Zilla and
all other devices by using black plastic box connecters which are design for
cables, but also fits the wireloom.
Some of these wire looms end up under the dash, which I design to hinge down.
Behind the dash plates that whole all the instruments is another set screw
terminal strip that is about 4 feet long.
The removable covers on the consoles are all the control switches which are
connected to small gangable Anderson plugs where I can remove a console panel
that has 42 switches on it by just unplugging it.
Under the extended wireway behind the console, there is a hinge cover that
excises 20 power circuit breakers for all the circuits of the car.
The wireway extends all the way to back and connects to a large enclosure that
is 15 inches wide by 12 inches high and 60 inches wide with covers that are
next and flush with the battery box covers.
In this rear enclosure, is groups of set screw terminals strips that are number
and label which correspond to all all numbers in any other terminal strip
through out the car.
This rear enclosure houses the PFC-50 charger, E-meter shunts, Dash Amp meter
shunts and Volt meter circuits, Charger AC input main circuit breaker, AC volt
and amp meters, Charger DC volt and amp meters, 12 VDC volt and amp meters, 12
VDC Smart charger, two 400 amp battery safety contactors, Battery charger
disconnect contactor, 150 CFM Blower fan to cool the charger. 50 CFM explosive
proof fan to exhaust the fumes out of the battery box, vacuum and pressure
limit switches control system to sense fan operation and finally a terminal
strip mounted fuse indication system, that indicates what fuse and circuit
faults.
All this I made for easy excess, by hinging up access covers and the
compartments light up if its dark and if its raining, there is a large hatch
cover that is over these excess covers.
Its best to design something to is maintenance ease and can be trouble shoot
using fault indicators if you can. Add spare conduits and wires for future
used, because you will be always updating.
If you do not have the room to run inside the car, than run large sealtite
conduit under the car, and fasten every 24 inches with 2 hole plastic conduit
straps. Terminated each end with sealtite box connectors install in to a
bracket or compartment. My first EV had this type of conduit. One 2 inch for
the power cables, and One 2 inch for controls. If you are running different
voltage control cables, these were also run in 3/8 to 1/2 wire looms and pull
through the sealtite conduit. The E-meter cable is double shield, so I ran
that as is through the same 2 inch conduit as the other control wires.
Roland.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Shanab<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: Help with battery wiring
Ok, I have revised my drawing.
Now one last question (yeah right)
Do I run the cable down the hole for the fuel sending unit and under
the car where the fuel lines were to the engine compartment? Probably
best in a conduit.
Or
Do I run it under the carpet and find/make a hole thru the firewall to
the engine compartment?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
Andrew, take a look at the motor power curves and calculate the torque at
various speeds for the wheels. You will soon see that you need some sort of
gear reduction. Once you do this, then plot the power curve with your fixed
gear, and you will realize that a single gear will be a compromise between
acceleration and top speed (sometimes a drastic compromise). This may be OK
for a NEV, but for a highway EV, it is too much of a compromise.
okay, that makes sense. thanks. back to lurking for a while.
Andrew
This is why most on-road and highway EVs use the transmission.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Andrew Sackville-West
Sent: September 8, 2005 3:56 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 924 EV
I've only been lurking a couple of days, but this addresses one of my early
questions... why the focus on what is a very critical alignment of motor to
existing tranny/tansaxle? why not dump the whole she-bang and bolt direct to
a CV joint/half-shaft? trannies burn power and are heavy, my very
rudimentary knowledge leads me to believe that two motors direct connected
to the flange where the cv joint connects to the transaxle would be easier.
This flange just has to be bolted up square and centered, but if the final
position is off a few fractions of an inch from where it was originally
attached its okay as the part is made to move anyway?
I had been working on how to spell this out more logically, but was caught
by how relevant the discussion below was, and so I ramble.
I realise there are many other issues which I will get to eventually, but
this was just off the top of my head. Of course, 1:1 drive ration may be a
problem?
thanks for indulging a total n00b!
Andrew
Don Cameron wrote:
Is not the 924 a front engined water cooled rear wheel drive car? If
you wanted to put in a 911 or VW transaxle up front, would you end up
making it a front wheel drive? Yikes! That might be a bit of work!
Or did you plan on putting the transaxle and motor in the rear? I
expect you would have to get out the cutting torch to replace a
differential with a transaxle, they are quite a bit bigger.
Do not forget you will have to rework all the shifting mechanism as
well as clutch mechanism. This is not easy work.
If you want to do this simply to get around building a custom adapter
plate, don't bother. Adapter plates can be built very rough and crude
indeed if you are too cheap to spend the money. See grassrootsev.com
I am sure ElectroAutomotive or your local machine shop can set you up
with a quality adapter plate at the lowest possible cost.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Ray Brooks
Sent: September 8, 2005 7:32 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: 924 EV
I wonder how hard it would be to adapt a 911 or even a VW type 1
transaxle to the 924 chassis. The only real challenge would be the
inner CV joints and with a little luck those may either fit perfectly or
require minor fiddling.
With the above mentioned transaxles the adaptor bits are readily
available.
The electric motor would be mounted in the back of the car eliminating
the weight of the forward bellhousing, driveshaft, etc.
If the VW tranny would work it would save a lot of money vs the 911
trans and would probably have a more usable 4th gear.
--- End Message ---
