EV Digest 4743
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Charging wires
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Microturbine generator on eBay
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: K&W Chargers
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Multiple message postings
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Have I found the ultimate EV discussion list?
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Solectria-Sunrise Body on eBay
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ron Freund)
7) RE: Rims on Bombardier EV
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV Tradin' Post and EV Album Back Online
by Danny Ames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Have I found the ultimate EV discussion list?
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Have I found the ultimate EV discussion list?
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Solectria-Sunrise Body on eBay
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Have I found the ultimate EV discussion list?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Have I found the ultimate EV discussion list?
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Have I found the ultimate EV discussion list?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Microturbine generator on eBay
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Multiple message postings
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Highway capable conversion on a budget?
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Solectria-Sunrise Body on eBay
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Have I found the ultimate EV discussion list?
by "Ray Brooks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Racing Battery Calculations
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Have I found the ultimate EV discussion list?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) 6 volt vs 8 volt GC batteries
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Is that a "yes it is ok" rich ?
<snide humor>
or is it a qualified yes....may damage the zilla or "don't drive while I
charge" disclaimer
</snide humor>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Capstone microturbine is 900degree exhaust temp w/o treatment. Waste it
or use it is the question. That is why they make great standby power
for processing plants that would use some of the electricity to heat
anyway. Perhaps the perfect co-generation setup at home. all the
electric ,hot water, heat and refridgeration(ammonia style) a set of 3
or 4 houses and their EV's need.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 20 Sep 2005 at 14:36, Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) wrote:
> What is the AH capacity of an Optima G31? How do you compute cost per
> mile?
The data and my computations are here:
http://www2.ald.net/~roden/ev/pages/saft.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 20 Sep 2005 at 22:58, Mike Barber wrote:
> Is anyone else getting messages in triplicate?
Looks normal here.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Subject: RE: Have I found the ultimate EV discussion list?
Mark, sounds like you have a good plan. Here are a few things:
- power steering. You can use a Toyota MR2 power steering pump, or since
you are going auto, have your main motor spin all the time and use the OEM
pump off the end shaft. Randy at CanEV.com did this with an echo
conversion.
Well not exactly, my motor will stop with the car because I won't be using
the torque converter so the transmission is like an auto shifting manual
with no clutch. Tell me about the MR2 pump. Is it electric?
- regen. Not sure if brushed DC motors can do this, something to do with
the
way the brushes are advanced. Check with others.
- AC. Nice feature, for some people in hot climates this is a must. For
me
(canada west coast), it is a luxury. You can run a seperate motor, or,
once
again, since you are going automatic, you can have the main motor run all
the time and power the compressor off the end shaft.
- Personally I am very interested in the protocol/interface to change the
shift points on the transmission. Let us know how it goes. I have not
read
many posts on interfacing with the ECUs.
Will do.
Mark
Good luck
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Grasser
Sent: September 19, 2005 5:55 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Have I found the ultimate EV discussion list?
This is incredible,
I signed up last night and tonight I have 45 minutes worth of EV emails. I
was beginning to think I was alone!!
First an introduction and short history.
Name is Mark Grasser
Live in Eliot Maine for 3 years now
Mostly lived in Kenosha, Wisconsin, a few years in Mount Clemens MI.
Background: too much to list. Mostly Marine Electronics, some industrial
test electronics. Machine work, Bridgeport and toolmakers lathe
experience.
Most of my life as an Electronics Design Engineer, Last five years as a
switching power supply / battery charger Design Engineer.
Project about to undertake: Electric 1996 Golf Automatic.
So here is my plan. I am looking for help and guidance, anyone that says I
can't have electric windows, air conditioning, alarm systems, Rear window
defogger and an Automatic transmission please don't bother. Well unless
you
have REALLY good information.
My plan so far:
Advanced DC motor 9" traction motor. Is this too big?
18 - 8 volt Trojan T-875 batteries.
Controller, My own, with regen, I find what's available ridiculously
expensive.
Battery charger, my own, Child's play, will be 3 step, variable rate
absorption, float, on demand equalization. PIC controlled.
Air conditioning, yes but not sure how yet.
PS and PB, vacuum pump for the brakes, not sure on the Power Steering.
Auto trans. why? Doesn't make sense to shift if this is a futuristic car.
(Born and raised on stick shift. This is the first auto in the family in
15
years)
VW Beetle auto has a final drive on 4.875:1. This equates to 5200 rpm in
top
gear at 70 mph. Beetle trans will fit into the Golf. Electric motor
connects
strait to the transmission, no torque converter used. Oil pressure will be
created using an external dc driven pump. Over drive gearing will be
discarded. VW trans is electrically shifted and already has it's own shift
computer which will be discarded and replaced with a PIC based computer to
change the shift points as needed. Can be programmed to upshift when
touching the brake lights the help with regeneration.
Batteries: I plan on cutting and welding on the body. A 10 battery box
under
the floor where the fuel tank and spare tire are, a box with three
batteries
under the rear seat and 5 more, not sure how yet under the hood with the
motor.
I have been in contact with EV of America, some of my choices are by his
recommendation.
I am not yet sure where to buy from, his prices are kind of steep, well so
are everyone else's that I have contacted.
Any info from the gods amongst you will be greatly appreciated. I need to
get this project done before all the gas stations close in the spring. :-)
If it is ok with you guy I am going to put this up large in the garage
"*BE*
the change that you wish to see in the world". -- Mahatma Gandhi
Says it all.
Thanks for your time.
Newby,
Mark Grasser
I am going to take a perfectly good
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sunrise Body For sale on Ebay
Just to let everyone know, there is a lightweight, all
Composite Sunrise Electric Vehicle Body for sale on Ebay.
This is the body design that was used for the 380 mile
record range run and the Boston - NYC highway speed run
without charging. It could drive at under 100Wh/mile.
It would make a really exciting build project for a group
of EV'ers, an EV club or just an experienced car builder.
It would also make an awesome base for a drag car because
of its very low=20 weight and great aerodynamics.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Solectria-Sunrise-All-Composite-EV-Car-Body-Chassis_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ36475QQitemZ8001625984QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In my case it all really depended on the offset. I am not aware of any 4 on 4"
wheels that have a 0 offset. The wheels I was finding had a 38mm offset so the
spacer cancelled that out to make it 0. The Bombardier may be different of
course, I don't know.
Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Ricky Suiter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> Well, might as well post this for everyone to have. The eBay
> user is "wheeladapters"
> http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQsassZwheeladapters
> They'll make anything, $70 for a pair, $140 for a set! There
> is a shop locally that makes these things and they are at
> almost $100 each for the same 4 on 4" to 4 on 100mm 1.5"
> spacer adapters that I got from them.
>
> With the adapters at least you don't modify the vehicle and
> therefore it can always go back with nothing special.
I'm a little puzzled why one would spend $140 on adapters so that they
can use a set of 4x100mm rims. 4x4" rims are available new or from a
junk yard, so as long as you have to buy a set of wheels for the vehicle
anyway, why pay for wheels and then pay another $140 for adapters
instead of just buying the proper wheels to start with?
Note that the adapters are 1.5" thick, which means that your wheels will
end up spaced 1.5" further out. If you are using wider than stock
wheels with appropriate offset to correct for this it may not be an
issue, but if you are just slapping on whatever wheels you can find you
could end up with tire and/or wheel bearing wear issues.
Cheers,
Roger.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
A Gigantic Thanks and to everyone who helped.
Danny Ames...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
?
My ideas:
Use the MR2 pump to supply pressure to the tranny and steering when the DC
9" is stopped. Once the car is underway the internal trans oil pump takes
over and the MR2 pump is shut off. A one way valve in the line from the
MR2
pump would be needed. Use the tranny oil pan as the MR2 pump's reservior.
I like this idea. Are the pressures compatable between steering and trans? I
would think the power steering pressure is a lot higher. If so the power
steering will not get as much as designed for but this would be a good mix
just the same.
Air conditioning regen. Once the evap core is cool you don't need to run
the
AC comp a whole lot. This would be a good way to do some "regen" down
hills
and when braking.
Um.... You need to explain this to me a little bit, went right by me.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark
Your subject line states: Have I found the ultimate EV discussion list?
The answer is, yes!
cool
Advanced DC motor 9" traction motor. Is this too big?
So far everyone says it's not too big. Guess it'll be a go on the 9" motor.
18 - 8 volt Trojan T-875 batteries.
144V - presumably in order to get enough volts to run the 9" up to the
RPMs you are looking at without adding too much weight. But the 8V
batteries have a reputation for being not as strong as 6V'ers, and teamed
up with a 9" may have a dissapointing life span.
Understood. It makes perfect sense that the 8 volters don't match up to the
6 volters in current, same size more voltage = less current. Anything about
their construction that makes the T875s loosers?
Yes,should be simple for someone with your background. What topology are
you intending to implement? Transformer? PFC? (another discussion for the
EVtech list).
I'm thinking 50khz switcher with programmed PIC for control. No pfc yet but
a good idea, would get my charging current up for when I'm away from the BIG
power at home.
Air conditioning, yes but not sure how yet.
Either a seperate motor that only runs when you want aircon, or a pump on
the main motor that you have to run the main motor to get aircon.
I think after reading the last day of emails that it can run when the car is
moving. It'll be ok at stop lights for that minute without, here in Maine
anyway.
PS and PB, vacuum pump for the brakes, not sure on the Power Steering.
I wonder if finding a pressure style power brake is a good idea, run it with
the trans and power steering pumps. I think Audi has one. Again, have to
check the pressures.
>>If it is ok with you guy I am going to put this up large in the garage
"*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world". -- Mahatma Gandhi
Lee Hart (a man you need to pay a lot of attention to) has that as one of
his tag lines. Quite appropriate for EVers.
Lee, TIA. Insperation is needed at this stage of the game.
What is your planned use for the vehicle? be dissapointing to build a
vehicle without the range or carrying capacity to do your daily duties.
Right now it's a 16 mile trip for me and a 22 mile trip for my wife. Round
trip. As long as I don't get a new job further away we should be good.
Thanks,
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ron and All,
Great find !! It would be a great EV. It' may be the mold they
made the production molds from as that is how it should be done, putting
together a structural body/chassis so when the tooling is done, everything fits.
With the battery tunnel still not installed you could modify it
to except whereever batt you wanted. Looks like the hood, trunk isn't there
and would have to be made.
One could with a small modifications, be able to make legal molds
from it and put it into production for a reasonable price which I would be
happy to help someone do.
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
Ron Freund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Sunrise Body For sale on Ebay
Just to let everyone know, there is a lightweight, all
Composite Sunrise Electric Vehicle Body for sale on Ebay.
This is the body design that was used for the 380 mile
record range run and the Boston - NYC highway speed run
without charging. It could drive at under 100Wh/mile.
It would make a really exciting build project for a group
of EV'ers, an EV club or just an experienced car builder.
It would also make an awesome base for a drag car because
of its very low=20 weight and great aerodynamics.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Solectria-Sunrise-All-Composite-EV-Car-Body-Chassis_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ36475QQitemZ8001625984QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Grasser wrote:
> >>PS and PB, vacuum pump for the brakes, not sure on the Power Steering.
>
> I wonder if finding a pressure style power brake is a good idea, run it with
> the trans and power steering pumps. I think Audi has one. Again, have to
> check the pressures.
The newer model Mustangs also use the power steering pump for the
"power" brakes. No vacuum powered brake booster. Not sure about the
94/95 model. Nearly certain about the 96-04. Not sure on the 05/06.
I like '93 on down. :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Pete,
Thanks for all the info. I'll read it again a third time to try to soak it
in. The big thing you are telling me is to forget regen. It makes the
controler simple, that's for sure. I am sticking to the auto though. I still
have to believe the start up currents will be a lot less thus helping with
mileage.
I'll keep everone posted.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The MR2 pump is 12V electric-hydraulic. You can find the details at
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_IndexOtherSystems.html
A number of people have had great success with this pump.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Grasser
Sent: September 20, 2005 4:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Have I found the ultimate EV discussion list?
Subject: RE: Have I found the ultimate EV discussion list?
> Mark, sounds like you have a good plan. Here are a few things:
>
> - power steering. You can use a Toyota MR2 power steering pump, or
> since you are going auto, have your main motor spin all the time and
> use the OEM pump off the end shaft. Randy at CanEV.com did this with
> an echo conversion.
Well not exactly, my motor will stop with the car because I won't be using
the torque converter so the transmission is like an auto shifting manual
with no clutch. Tell me about the MR2 pump. Is it electric?
>
> - regen. Not sure if brushed DC motors can do this, something to do
> with the way the brushes are advanced. Check with others.
>
> - AC. Nice feature, for some people in hot climates this is a must.
> For me (canada west coast), it is a luxury. You can run a seperate
> motor, or, once again, since you are going automatic, you can have the
> main motor run all the time and power the compressor off the end
> shaft.
>
> - Personally I am very interested in the protocol/interface to change
> the shift points on the transmission. Let us know how it goes. I
> have not read many posts on interfacing with the ECUs.
Will do.
Mark
>
>
> Good luck
>
> Don
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Mark Grasser
> Sent: September 19, 2005 5:55 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Have I found the ultimate EV discussion list?
>
> This is incredible,
>
> I signed up last night and tonight I have 45 minutes worth of EV
> emails. I was beginning to think I was alone!!
>
> First an introduction and short history.
>
> Name is Mark Grasser
>
> Live in Eliot Maine for 3 years now
>
> Mostly lived in Kenosha, Wisconsin, a few years in Mount Clemens MI.
>
> Background: too much to list. Mostly Marine Electronics, some
> industrial test electronics. Machine work, Bridgeport and toolmakers
> lathe experience.
> Most of my life as an Electronics Design Engineer, Last five years as
> a switching power supply / battery charger Design Engineer.
>
> Project about to undertake: Electric 1996 Golf Automatic.
>
> So here is my plan. I am looking for help and guidance, anyone that
> says I can't have electric windows, air conditioning, alarm systems,
> Rear window defogger and an Automatic transmission please don't
> bother. Well unless you have REALLY good information.
>
> My plan so far:
>
> Advanced DC motor 9" traction motor. Is this too big?
>
> 18 - 8 volt Trojan T-875 batteries.
>
> Controller, My own, with regen, I find what's available ridiculously
> expensive.
>
> Battery charger, my own, Child's play, will be 3 step, variable rate
> absorption, float, on demand equalization. PIC controlled.
>
> Air conditioning, yes but not sure how yet.
>
> PS and PB, vacuum pump for the brakes, not sure on the Power Steering.
>
> Auto trans. why? Doesn't make sense to shift if this is a futuristic car.
> (Born and raised on stick shift. This is the first auto in the family
> in
> 15
> years)
>
> VW Beetle auto has a final drive on 4.875:1. This equates to 5200 rpm
> in top gear at 70 mph. Beetle trans will fit into the Golf. Electric
> motor connects strait to the transmission, no torque converter used.
> Oil pressure will be created using an external dc driven pump. Over
> drive gearing will be discarded. VW trans is electrically shifted and
> already has it's own shift computer which will be discarded and
> replaced with a PIC based computer to change the shift points as
> needed. Can be programmed to upshift when touching the brake lights
> the help with regeneration.
>
> Batteries: I plan on cutting and welding on the body. A 10 battery box
> under the floor where the fuel tank and spare tire are, a box with
> three batteries under the rear seat and 5 more, not sure how yet under
> the hood with the motor.
>
> I have been in contact with EV of America, some of my choices are by
> his recommendation.
>
> I am not yet sure where to buy from, his prices are kind of steep,
> well so are everyone else's that I have contacted.
>
> Any info from the gods amongst you will be greatly appreciated. I need
> to get this project done before all the gas stations close in the
> spring. :-)
>
> If it is ok with you guy I am going to put this up large in the garage
> "*BE*
> the change that you wish to see in the world". -- Mahatma Gandhi
>
> Says it all.
>
> Thanks for your time.
>
> Newby,
>
> Mark Grasser
>
> I am going to take a perfectly good
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd want to make a hybrid electric using the microturbine in there...
and it has to be in the back of a Delorean. As such I'd a bit
disappointed that it doesn't sound like a jet taking off when throttling up.
The sheer usefulness of that is great. I mean, if you need a generator
that thing puts out 40 hp! I've seen how loud a 10 hp piston generator
can be. Some are better than others, the inverter generators are great,
but that exhaust noise carried for a mile or more and is really hard to
shield. All this needs is an inverter, or for incandescent lighting it
could be done with a really simple PWM. I could power an entire remote
site with that.
Danny
Rich Rudman wrote:
Really ???
That surprises me. I do not remember the the full power DB levels...
The same power level military Gen carts are ear Pro only.
But still I would love to have a Capstone to play with.
Madman
Actually, it just sounds like a gas furnace.The whine is similar to
the noise made by the draft inducer blower on a high eff. furnace.
Ok when I have 6K$ in mad money..... and no Debt...
sigh
Madman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Haven't noticed triplicate, but many are duplicated.
John Neiswanger
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Barber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 1:58 PM
Subject: Multiple message postings
> Is anyone else getting messages in triplicate?
>
> Mike Barber
> DakoCytomation
> 4856 Innovation Drive
> Fort Collins, CO 80525
> 970-226-2200 Ext 1261
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Again, thanks for your advice, Lee.
Lee Hart wrote:
>John's EV is a great example and role model to copy.
Imagine if it had 8-10 more batteries, a 9'' motor, and an
HV Zilla. TZero for 1/6 the cost...
>Bill Dube's "rule of thumb" is that 800 lbs of
>floodeds equals one gallon of gas. I.e. if you convert
>a car that originally got 20mpg and load it with 800
>lbs of floodies, you can expect 20 miles range.
>
>How many mpg did your Triumph get? I would guess about
>25 mpg? With the 940 lbs of batteries I suggested,
>this would be 940/800 x 25mpg = 30 miles.
I don't expect this rule of thumb to be too terribly
accurate, but if you're wondering, the GT6 will get 25 mpg
with a lead foot. Under sane driving on the highway it is
possible to coax 30-35 mpg out of them, but more typical is
about 28 mpg. The convertable Spitfire is practically the
same car minus top(less aero at .39 Cd for Mk I, II, III and
42 for Mk IV) with a smaller engine; Spitfire convertibles
routinely get 40 mpg.
So, using figures of 25 mpg for low estimate(GT6 with lead
foot driving) and 40 mpg for high estimate(Spitfire driven
normally), this 940 pounds of floodeds would net anywhere
from 29 miles range to 47 miles range. Both figures would be
very acceptable, as the longest commute I would make from my
house would be 30 miles(friend's house), but I don't ever
*need* to make that commute. That farthest 30 mile commute
would also have a charging opportunity. 30 miles range would
be just enough to get me to campus and back home on a single
charge, and if there is an opportunity to charge at campus,
30 miles would be twice what is needed. If I take side
streets instead of highway, I could get to and from campus
in 20 miles, but that would be slower than the highway.
>Optimas or other AGMs would be great if you can afford
>them.
Not yet. I'm going to start with floodeds.
However, I will later have AGMs. As many as I can fit. But
by that time the car would have evolved drastically from its
cheap low-budget state with bad boy charger, low output
controller, small motor, and floodies to a tire smoker with
Zilla 1k, AGMs, regs, PFC, race-prepped 9'' motor(maybe sent
to Jim and re-built for 9,000 rpm redline, 240V and 700
amps, which would do wonders for allowing 150 mph!), and
excellent range.
>Your 30 mile range at 50 mph requires discharging the
>batteries in less than an hour; AGMs are better than
>floodeds in this application. I was figuring floodeds
>because they are cheap, and easy to charge.
Indeed. I have told others about this general rule. But if
AGMs cannot initially be afforded, then floodies win by
default.
>If you can fit them(and get at them for maintenance
>and watering), they are a better choice
>for your "training wheel" batteries.
I'm not worried about the lengths I'd need to go to in order
to access the batteries at this point. If it's a cheap
conversion, that's what I'd expect. If anything, I'll make
every effort to make the battery boxes capable of catering
to both floodeds and AGMs for an easy swap later on, and I'd
have no problem with positioning a flooded pack as low as
possible into the car(permitting I don't have to throw them
onto their sides). If I have to spend an extra hour each
week getting to them, so be it. I've also expected to kill
my first pack anyway, so maybe floodeds are a good start, as
much as I'd like to have a set of AGMs. :-)
>Here's a trick for fitting batteries in odd locations.
>Make your battery boxes out of 1" styrafoam. It's easy
>to cut and fit it into the nooks and crannies. Then
>fiberglass it, inside and out. Now you have custom
>molded, insulated, acid-proof boxes that are tightly
>integrated into the unibody.
Bill Bishoprick, builder of the Swallow EV, recommended to
me a book called "Composite Construction For Homebuilt
Aircraft" by Jack Lambie as a good primer on working with
fiberglass. I've already done a few designs using the
principles you outlined above, but have no practical
experience with fiberglass itself. My only big concern is
how the fiberglass would fare in case of an accident. I
don't want batteries flying around!
I took a course on Statics that has helped quite a bit when
it comes to designing battery boxes, but I still have my
reservations. This first conversion should allow me to learn
a bit.
>They are old, and either used or surplus. The price
>can be anything from $100-$500. Burden Sales had a
>smaller 400-amp version of this motor for $179
>recently.
Thanks. I'll be keeping this motor in mind.
>That's reasonable. It's not the contactor controller
>itself that murders the batteries; it's the leadfoot
>driving! Like the bad-boy charger, a contactor
>controller (usually) has no protection against
>operator exhuberance or carelessness.
Since I plan to hand others the keys on occassion, I think I
would rather manage without the contactor controller. :-)
>They are reliable, but only slightly less expensive
>and have a lot less functionality.
I guess I'll initially go without instrumentation and get an
E-meter as soon as possible post conversion. That would only
take about two weeks.
>I don't see any reduction of used or surplus parts
>yet. Fact is, the vast amount of used and surplus goes
>unsold; Americans seem to prefer new, high-tech parts,
>no matter what they cost.
I was referring to used conversions, but I guess your point
still stands since there are other viable sources to mine
for inexpensive and/or used parts.
Thanks for your advice Lee. After I finish managing to pay
for all my text books I need, and install a new set of
floorboards, I'll practically be able to get started.
I hope by summer of next year or earlier to have a cheap
conversion on the road. Maybe by the end of 2006 or early
2007 to have upgraded to a larger motor and a Zilla, and
finally late 2007 when the floodeds die, to a PFC, regs, and
AGMs. This conversion is going to start as a modest slug,
but won't stay a slug forever.
In the meantime, I hope to visit Mark Ward to see his near
complete conversion and get some ideas on both what to do
and more importantly, what NOT to do.
I could get a cool $600(being very conservative) or more for
that rebuilt ICE-engine installed.
My conversion is going to be executed in various steps,
starting as the slug I detest but would still find handy. It
will be a step by step process where the improvements that
offer the greatest immediate benefit per unit of cost will
be implemented first. For example, I'm not going to
immediately switch to AGMs because that would need regs($),
a proper charger($$), plus the batteries themselves($$$$$$).
However, a weight reduction can be done in stages where with
each new paycheck, 5-10 pounds might be shaved from the car
with a new fiberglass body piece, sandpaper, paint, and a
few hours work.
1) Partial restoration: replace floorboards, some bodywork,
low quality paintjob/some rustproofing done myself ~$1,000
I am doing this right now.
2) Begin cheap conversion with floodeds for ~ $2,000 in
parts. Expected 96V DC.
After this point, the conversion will be operational and
perhaps be able to hit 65-70 mph on the highway, but even
55-60 mph top speed would be fine. Range should be 30 or so
miles to 80% doing 50. Weight would be about 2,200-2,300
pounds. Acceleration will be tepid and likely embarassing,
and I will not yet publically display that this car is
electric.
3) Instrumentation(E-Meter and such) and DC-DC converter,
~$500 for both
This will allow me to make the car drivable by others.
4) ADC/WarP 9'' motor and motor mount fabricated by me,
~$1,700 for both
This will boost range and performance some. Range should
increase about 10% with improved motor efficiency.
Acceleration will see a rather significant improvement, but
would still be quite slow. Weight will increase about 75
pounds.
5) LRR tires, aero mods, LeMans bonnet ~$2,000
This could perhaps increase range another 10-20%. Top speed
would gain about 10 mph. Weight will stay about the same,
the low weight of the fiberglass bonnet cancelling the added
weight from the bellypan, shaved door handle kit, ect.
6) Weight reduction with fiberglass parts and lexan windows,
LeMans style aluminum alloy wheels ~$2,000
Weight reduction by anywhere from 200 to 300 pounds. Boosts
in both acceleration and low speed range. A 5-10% range
increase would be in order. 0-60 mph should be around the 25
second region now, top speed around 75-80 mph.
7) Professional paintjob(perhaps with acid bath) and nice
stereo system ~$3,000
Now the car would be all show, no go. At least it would get
attention and look a hell of a lot more expensive than it
is!
8) HV Zilla 1k ~$2,700
This would drop the 0-60 time to the 17-18 second region
with a nice 0-30 mph acceleration boost under an imposed 450
battery amp limit. Still all show no go, but at least it
will be able to smoke its tires at this point and would have
no problems passing other cars.
This is the point where I would proudly display this car as
an EV, and order license plate holders displaying this car
as electric along with emblems displaying it as electric.
9) PFC-20 charger ~$1,500
Cut the charge time down a bit, but most importantly,
prepare the car for acceptance of AGMs.
10) AGMs, Regs, leaf springs, upgraded DC-DC converter
~$4,000
This would be the big upgrade and would necessitate new
battery boxes. Afterwards under the condition weight
reduction was earlier done, car should weigh about 2,400
pounds with a 300-336V pack of Exide Orbitals. Range may be
about 80-100 miles under careful driving in ideal
conditions, and with imposed 600 battery amp limit, 800
motor amp limit, and 170 motor volt limit, 0-60 will drop
nicely to about 6-7 seconds, 1/4 mile time to the high 14s,
and top speed increase to over 120 mph. Leaf springs would
allow car to go over GVWR some. Without weight reduction, it
would be in the 2,600 pound range, and I have decided I will
not let the car go above 2,400 pounds with me as
driver(although it could reach 2,600 pounds with another
passenger and some luggage).
11) Race-prep the ADC/WarP 9'' motor for high revs and
higher end horsepower ~$1,000+
This will significantly increase the top speed and drop the
0-60 time to the 5 second region if motor can be rebuilt to
handle 240V but with an imposed 700 motor amp limit. Range
under lead foot driving will be improved some, but top speed
would be about 150! 1/4 mile would be well into the 14
second region, if not high 13s.
So it would start out as a humble $2,000 conversion(Plus
some for the restoration and glider) to get my hands wet
with and wind up a $20k road demon a few years down the
road.
Perhaps after the AGMs wear out, I'll have a good job by
then and be able to afford a set of Kokam Li Poly, along
with a setup of twin 9'' motors, Dutchman rear end for
direct drive, a charger designed for Li poly, and a Zilla
2k. Wouldn't dropping that 0-60 mph time to 4 seconds, 1/4
mile time to the 12s or 13s, keeping the top speed, and
upping the range to 200 miles or more be nice? Ok, I'll quit
dreaming now.
The bottom line is, whatever I start with, I will keep
improving upon.
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--- Begin Message ---
I could be wrong, but was that the car that was on eBay a while back for
something like 50 grand? I'm thinking there was a completed custom solectria
car on there several months back that looked like that.
jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Hi Ron and All,
Great find !! It would be a great EV. It' may be the mold they made the
production molds from as that is how it should be done, putting together a
structural body/chassis so when the tooling is done, everything fits.
With the battery tunnel still not installed you could modify it to except
whereever batt you wanted. Looks like the hood, trunk isn't there and would
have to be made.
One could with a small modifications, be able to make legal molds from it and
put it into production for a reasonable price which I would be happy to help
someone do.
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
Ron Freund wrote:
Sunrise Body For sale on Ebay
Just to let everyone know, there is a lightweight, all
Composite Sunrise Electric Vehicle Body for sale on Ebay.
This is the body design that was used for the 380 mile
record range run and the Boston - NYC highway speed run
without charging. It could drive at under 100Wh/mile.
It would make a really exciting build project for a group
of EV'ers, an EV club or just an experienced car builder.
It would also make an awesome base for a drag car because
of its very low=20 weight and great aerodynamics.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Solectria-Sunrise-All-Composite-EV-Car-Body-Chassis_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ36475QQitemZ8001625984QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
Later,
Ricky
02 Red Insight #559
92 Saturn SC2 EV conversion in progress
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You will have to do some research to see if the ps and tranny pressures are
in the same ball park. A GM turbo 350 uses 150 to 160 and I would think
most trannies use similar pressures.
AC- Lets say you hook up a push button switch to activate the ac compressor.
You press the button to cool the cabin and once the cabin is cool you
release the button and the compressor clutch is disengaged. The ac blower
fan would continue to run and circulate cabin air through the ac evap core.
If you start to get warm you hit the button. If you have to slow down you
use the button to slow the car while also cooling the cabin.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: Have I found the ultimate EV discussion list?
> ?
>
>
> > My ideas:
> > Use the MR2 pump to supply pressure to the tranny and steering when the
DC
> > 9" is stopped. Once the car is underway the internal trans oil pump
takes
> > over and the MR2 pump is shut off. A one way valve in the line from the
> > MR2
> > pump would be needed. Use the tranny oil pan as the MR2 pump's
reservior.
>
> I like this idea. Are the pressures compatable between steering and trans?
I
> would think the power steering pressure is a lot higher. If so the power
> steering will not get as much as designed for but this would be a good mix
> just the same.
> >
> > Air conditioning regen. Once the evap core is cool you don't need to run
> > the
> > AC comp a whole lot. This would be a good way to do some "regen" down
> > hills
> > and when braking.
>
> Um.... You need to explain this to me a little bit, went right by me.
>
> Mark
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting figures.
The difference between our sims is that mine did not count
in the amount of energy used to accelerate the vehicle to
that speed, but simply calculated how much range it would
have using the minimum power requirements needed to maintain
that speed. It's the acceleration that eats up all the
energy and lets Peuklert's effect take its toll.
I'm more curious what your range will look like going 60-70
mph on the highway.
An EV with 15 lb/hp would accelerate like a gas car with 12
lb/hp. You'll have little problem eating Audi TTs and BMW
Z4s for lunch.
Happen to have a website or any place I can view your
conversion in progress?
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark
At 08:06 PM 20/09/05 -0400, Mark wrote:
So far everyone says it's not too big. Guess it'll be a go on the 9" motor.
Aah, don't forget that there is more than one choice in series DC motors of
that size. Advanced DC, Netgain, Warfield, GE and others. And don't forget
the Jim Husted special build options. Jim, have you a suitable motor available?
144V - presumably in order to get enough volts to run the 9" up to the
RPMs you are looking at without adding too much weight. But the 8V
batteries have a reputation for being not as strong as 6V'ers, and teamed
up with a 9" may have a dissapointing life span.
Understood. It makes perfect sense that the 8 volters don't match up to
the 6 volters in current, same size more voltage = less current. Anything
about their construction that makes the T875s loosers?
Not sure. Nawaz is a US battery (competitor to Trojan) guy who may have
some insights - may need to 'page' him with a post asking specifically
about battery comparisons.
Yes,should be simple for someone with your background. What topology are
you intending to implement? Transformer? PFC? (another discussion for the
EVtech list).
I'm thinking 50khz switcher with programmed PIC for control. No pfc yet
but a good idea, would get my charging current up for when I'm away from
the BIG power at home.
Correct on the PFC, (gloating here in the land of 240VAC house-power and
415V 3-phase). Rich Rudmans' PFC range of chargers are all analogue - no
micro. No Isolation, too, if that is important to you.
Air conditioning, yes
I think after reading the last day of emails that it can run when the car
is moving. It'll be ok at stop lights for that minute without, here in
Maine anyway.
Sounds OK, but that means you need a motor with a 'tail-end' shaft.
I wonder if finding a pressure style power brake is a good idea,
Your local transport inspection would probably need an engineering
certificate for that (go ask them). Adding a vacuum pump and staying with
the existing braking system may be much less hassle.
What is your planned use for the vehicle? be dissapointing to build a
vehicle without the range or carrying capacity to do your daily duties.
Right now it's a 16 mile trip for me and a 22 mile trip for my wife. Round
trip. As long as I don't get a new job further away we should be good.
Ooh, on 8V wet cells that may be a struggle. The only successful 8V user I
know of is Jeff Owen in Queensland, in a very small Honda and strict
110km/h maximum speed limits. Not sure what his range is, but if he is
lurking he may chime in.
Thanks,
Mark
Just trying to help
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> 18 - 8 volt Trojan T-875 batteries.
I wouldn't recommend 8V batteries.
In real life T-875 batteries are only good for about 350 amps, and that's
only when they are fairly new and fully charged. As they age/discharge
max current drops to 300, then 250 and then -near end of life or end of
charge- less than 200 amps.
This means that when new/fully charged this pack can produce roughly 46hp
and near end of life/charge less than 21 hp.
6 and 8 volt GC batteries have the same exact plates, and the same number of
plates. This is according to an email from Nawaz - for the US battery line.
I have also read (on this list) that the same is true for the Trojan T-105's
and T-875's.
The plates are just arranged in 3 groups ( 3 cells) for a 6V battery and 4
groups for an 8 volt battery.
That means that they can supply exactly the same power ( not current) and
will have the same life while supplying the same power.
But, if you draw the same current from 8 volters as 6 volters, they will
provide more power but have shorter life. This may be why 8 volters
generally don't last as long. If people don't use lower battery current
limits on the 8 volters, it would explain getting shorter battery life.
Also, if people are using fewer batteries, they are more likely to use 8
volters than 6 volters so as to have a higher pack voltage. This would also
contribute to more anecdotal reports of short 8 volt battery life - more
power drawn from each battery with a smaller pack ( fewer batteries).
6V batteries, on the other hand, can handle 400-600 amps. Much better
performance.
If 6 volters can handle 400 - 600 amps, then 8 volters can similarly handle
300-450 amps. (same current per plate for both situations)
And, the power per battery would be the same, so the performance should be
the same ( or very close - there might be subtle differences depending on
controller efficiency at different voltage inputs, and a change in optimum
shift points).
And, in general, higher voltage, lower current, systems are more efficient.
As an example, if you use 8 volters instead of 6 volters, you can reduce the
high current wiring size by one gauge ( and save a few pounds) and still
have slightly less power loss in the wire. Or, keep the same wire size, and
have 44% less power loss in the wiring
That's one reason car manufacturers are changing to higher voltage
systems for ICE cars. And, one reason why commercial EV's and hybrids use
higher voltage systems.
Phil
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