EV Digest 4875
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Where in the World is Clooneys Black Tango !!
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Freedom EV started and I'm back online plus Battery version of the
Autonomy/Hy-wire
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Scirocco advise needed
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: No Trasmission?
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Battery version of the Autonomy/Hy-wire skateboard
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) unsubscribe
by "Kevin Gundlach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) wiring the garage for EVs...
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Freedom EV started and I'm back online plus Battery version of the
Autonomy/Hy-wire
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: No Trasmission?
by "Rodney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: wiring the garage for EVs...
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: wiring the garage for EVs...
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Double Electronic Disasters in Kansas City
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Bits and Pieces - air vs water cooling
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Lithium Pack vs TMF Cells?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: No Trasmission?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Scirocco advise needed
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Standardization of wire gauge in advertising?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) shunts
by Calvin King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Scirocco advise needed
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Need Bob Salem's Email
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: shunts
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Freedom EV started plus Battery version of the Autonomy/Hy-wire
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Bits and Pieces - air vs water cooling
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: wiring the garage for EVs...
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: wiring the garage for EVs...
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Need Bob Salem's Email
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
27) Re: wiring the garage for EVs...
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
(I will not divulge my sources - you can send me to Jail !)
George Clooney is in the news these days, what with his
retro-black-n-white movie on Edward R. Murrow, etc. and he spent an
HOUR with Opera, last week. Much chatter about environment, and a
little about hybrids...Leonardo DeCapria CHIMED in with a PLUG for his
docu-movie on Global Warming.... BUT no mention of George's Black
Beauty TANGO..... HUMMmmmmm... So I did a little investigative
reporting and came up with this QUOTE...
"..I hear he drives it a lot. He's not a spokesperson for us. He paid
$108k for the car and seems to enjoy it a lot. That's all I know. I'm
busy trying to set up manufacturing here in Spokane now. " End Quote...
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Doug,
How did you go about designing the suspension and steering elements
for your cars?
-Mike
On 10/31/05, jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Doug, Mike and All,
>
> Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Oct 30, 2005, at 2:51 AM, Mike Ellis wrote:
>
> > There's a concept I've been thinking about for a few months. It was
> > inspired by GM's Autonomy/Hy-wire "skateboard" fuel cell platform.
> ...
> > Designing a frame from scratch would obviously be a lot of work, but
> > it seems to have great advantages. Has something like this ever been
> > discussed on the list?
>
>
> Actually, it's not that hard, it's all that stuff you put on it that
> takes all the work.
>
> Both the Freedom EV and it's 4 wh follow on are done basicly this way
> though much thinner and the batts are on top of it. One could encase it
> easily to be the same but that would greatly diminish the flexability of it.
> there is a lot to be said for a 1" thich chassis with the other stuff mounted
> to it.
>
> In the Freedoms, the upper body is permently glued to the chassis but
> would be very easy to make it where it is bolted, ect on so different bodies
> could be used.
>
>
>
> Well, it has finially started as the skin coat for the first body in
> the Freedom EV molds has been done and tomarrow I bring it home to start the
> rest of it with the body being done in about a week if all goes well..
>
> The chassis will be done right after the body is finished so within 2
> weeks a whole composite moncoque body/chassis will be done !!! Yeah !!!
>
> Been fighting with my computer but it's fixed now. Managed to do some
> horse trading with the local computer store to do the repairs.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jerry Dycus
>
>
>
>
> Yup. The exchange I remember (because I participated) is from late
> November 2004. There are other mentions. Search the archives for
> "Hy-wire" here:
>
>
>
> I posted:
>
> > I'd like to see the Ridek idea turned around. Something like the GM
> > Hy-Wire concept. I would prefer to own one chassis and several bodies
> > - sports car, minivan, mini pickup. Perhaps a body with a genset in
> > it for long trips, or one with an extra battery pack. Or maybe I'd
> > just buy one chassis and one sedan body, and rent the other bodies as
> > I need them. Or maybe I'd have two chassis - short range, high
> > performance and long range, low performance.
> >
> > Having the ability to put a different body on your chassis would make
> > it more reasonable to spend a lot of money on an exotic battery pack
> > and/or drive system. You get to use it in several different vehicles!
>
> >From the Yahoo archives:
>
>
>
>
>
> You left out the motors and electronics. I'd put them in the
> skateboard too, just to make things neat.
>
> >
> > -Mike
> >
> >
> --
> Doug Weathers
> Bend, OR, USA
> http://learn-something.blogsite.org
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
yes i do [EMAIL PROTECTED] where are you located ? i am in minnesota
-------------- Original message --------------
> Hi Ken,
>
> I was looking at a Scirocco conversion and even bought a 1984 in really good
> condition. What EA told me is that with their kit only the 1984's and earlier
> would work. They also mentioned that the 9" ADC would work as well.
>
> Now that I have the Force, the Scirocco project is dead. Anyone need a
> glider?
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Bob Bath"
> Sent: 10/31/05 3:52:41 PM
> To: "[email protected]"
> Subject: Re: Scirocco advise needed
>
> hi Ken!
> A 9" motor can be done on a Rabbit, but the motor
> mount basically goes right up against the side frame
> member of the car; ie, it is _tight_. Mike Brown did
> it that way on VoltsRabbit #2. As far as Scirocco,
> you'd probably be best off asking him directly, or
> www.electroauto.com.
> The 9" motor will yield significantly more torque.
>
>
> Best to you on your conversion!
>
> --- Ken Albright wrote:
>
> > I finally found a donor car for my conversion
> > project
> > - a 1986 VW Scirocco. I think it's pretty much a
> > sporty version of the Rabbit. Of course I have lots
> > of
> > questions.
> >
> > If anyone has any experience with a conversion of
> > this
> > vehicle, I'd really like to hear from you. Any
> > special
> > problems to watch out for, etc.
> >
> > Looking at some of the kits, it seems that the ADC
> > 9"
> > motor is too big (too long?) to fit the Rabbits. Is
> > it
> > also too big for the Scirocco? I also see that WarP
> > has a 9" that is shorter. Any idea whether that
> > would
> > work? If so, is it a good choice?
> >
> > Or would a 9" motor be overkill? I'd like a peppy
> > car
> > but not a dragster. I'm thinking 120v flooded to
> > keep
> > it simple. The beginning curb weight is about 2,200
> > lbs.
> >
> > The stock tires are 185/65-14. I reckon I should
> > change to narrower tires. Or would changing to LRR
> > be
> > sufficient? If I need to change size, does anyone
> > know
> > if Rabbit wheels will fit?
> >
> > I'll quit for now. It's exciting to be getting
> > started.
> >
> > Ken
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> wheel?
> Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rodney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 3:50 AM
Subject: No Trasmission?
Hey all
Is it possible to set up a DC system for a road going, high performance EV
without using a transmission?
Net Gain has a 13" motor that you can get with a turbo 400 type spline , it
is also set up so you can do series ,parellel switching . Don who came to
one of my EV rallys is getting one , but lives on the west cost , so I won't
get to see it for a while . Its not light at 330 lbs . Theirs also sombody
else on the list that is getting one , maybe they'll share :-) .
Now for regular driving depending on the car , hills ect , you really can
get by just leaving it in one gear , like 2nd , yes this may limit your
speed to 55 or so , and if your
steve clunn www.grassrootsev.com
I am looking at building a custom EV, not a
conversion, so it would be very nice not to put in a tranny/clutch at all
if
i can get away with it? Any ideas about using two DC motors with a Zilla
controller which switches them in series/parallel and if thats the same as
a
two speed transmission? Or what that all means in the 'real world' for a
street car?
Thanks in advance
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A screen grab from the show, that shows the prototype skateboard can be
found here:
http://www.mikeellis.org
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is electrician-oriented...
I'm planning to add an Avcon (ICS) charger and eventually a Magnecharger
to the barn/garage which is ~50 feet away from the house. Fortunately
the house has a 200 amp service feed :-)
The prior owner/builder did something weird running separate neutral and
ground wires out to the barn and then joining them together on a single
neutral bar once there. I'm sure this is wrong.
Question is what is right? Is it treated like a sub-panel in the same
building with separate ground and neutral wires from the house, kept
separate in the sub-panel? Or more like a service entrance with only the
neutral coming from the house and a new ground established from ground
rod(s).
(and yes I know that ground rods aren't always the greatest 'ground' but
that is what is accepted practice...)
For bonus points, the ICS units says it pulls 24 amps maximum (which
just happens to be 80% of 30 amps). Yet the installation directions say
to use a 40 amp breaker. Any reason to use the larger breaker and
wiring, rather than a 30 amp breaker?
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Oct 31, 2005, at 5:48 PM, Mike Ellis wrote:
Hi Doug,
How did you go about designing the suspension and steering elements
for your cars?
-Mike
Actually, you're thinking of Jerry. He's the one designing the Freedom
EV. I believe he's currently planning on using suspensions from other
cars, but it would be better to ask him for the details.
Sorry for the confusion,
Doug
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for all the info guys, leaves me a bit to think about.
The other possibility is using a CVT (continuously variable transmission)
which still eliminates clutches and changes, but keeps the possibility of
gearing up or down the CVT, so for hills, starts it can start low and then
move up (continuously!) to enable a much higher top speed?
Anyone used one, or know of any manufacturers of CVT's or the newer IVT
(enables reverse through the transmission, rather than contactors)?
Cheers
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 20:53:05 -0500, Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>This is electrician-oriented...
>
>I'm planning to add an Avcon (ICS) charger and eventually a Magnecharger
>to the barn/garage which is ~50 feet away from the house. Fortunately
>the house has a 200 amp service feed :-)
>
>The prior owner/builder did something weird running separate neutral and
>ground wires out to the barn and then joining them together on a single
>neutral bar once there. I'm sure this is wrong.
>
>Question is what is right? Is it treated like a sub-panel in the same
>building with separate ground and neutral wires from the house, kept
>separate in the sub-panel? Or more like a service entrance with only the
>neutral coming from the house and a new ground established from ground
>rod(s).
There can only be one service entrance, by definition, and that is
whatever panel receives power from the meter. The panel in your
garage is a subpanel. It should have a ground bar and a separate
neutral bar that is insulated from the box. Neutral bar kits are
available for all modern panels.
There are a number of reasons that the neutral and ground should not
be interconnected anywhere except the service entrance. The formation
of ground loops, surface currents that can affect livestock (if you
ever had any), voltage drop in the neutral raising the ground above
earth potential are just some of the reasons. You can install a
second ground rod at the subpanel, connected only to the earth ground
strip (green) but there is no technical reason to do so. Don't know
about the code, as I've not kept up with the last couple of revisions.
>
>(and yes I know that ground rods aren't always the greatest 'ground' but
>that is what is accepted practice...)
If a ground rod is properly installed and tested, then it IS a good
ground. The problem is that many ground rods are not installed
properly and even fewer are tested. Ground rods are tested with an
instrument called a ground impedance meter. If the rod isn't just
cosmetic (as most residential rods are) and is expected to carry
current then it should be tested and additional rods added if
necessary.
>
>For bonus points, the ICS units says it pulls 24 amps maximum (which
>just happens to be 80% of 30 amps). Yet the installation directions say
>to use a 40 amp breaker. Any reason to use the larger breaker and
>wiring, rather than a 30 amp breaker?
Very high inrush, perhaps? No idea without looking at the unit
schematic.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They may be anticipating a very poor power factor.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: wiring the garage for EVs...
> >For bonus points, the ICS units says it pulls 24 amps maximum (which
> >just happens to be 80% of 30 amps). Yet the installation directions say
> >to use a 40 amp breaker. Any reason to use the larger breaker and
> >wiring, rather than a 30 amp breaker?
>
> Very high inrush, perhaps? No idea without looking at the unit
> schematic.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hope Mike did not try to get his account re-instated by
logging in according the instructions in such a Phishing mail.
(That might explain why he can't get Yahoo access anymore)
I usually get them from banks that I do not even have an
account with ;-)
Though they are also sent as Ebay and Paypal spoofs, which
requires to stay alert as the websites look like the real
thing, only the URL is not, for example paypal.signin4229.com
Also the subject "Your Account" usually sets off alarm bells
as that and the way you are addressed "Dear Paypal user" is
a dead giveaway that they have no clue and are not genuine.
The key is to recognise them as being fake before even
clicking on the link and sending the original mail plus
headers to the spoof/scam investigation department of the
real organisation, so they can deal with them.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of David Chapman
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 5:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Double Electronic Disasters in Kansas City
Mike, I also have a Yahoo account for dealing with the various groups I
subscribe to. RE: the account suspension notice from Yahoo, were they in
your bulk inbox or your regular e-mail inbox? I have gotten a # of these
(like 2 dozen) in my bulk mail inbox and it turned out that they are spoofs
/ potential trojan horse. I cannot help but wonder if this might be related
to your computer problem. I foreward all of them to the yahoo spam unit and
they seemed to go away. HTH, David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 8:44 PM
Subject: Double Electronic Disasters in Kansas City
> Hi folks,
>
> This just hasn't been my week.
>
> Disaster number one. As most of you are no doubt aware, I am the
> webmaster of the EV Album and the EV Tradin' Post. You probably don't
> know I also created and moderate the C-Car egroup for Citicar and
> Comutacar owners, and I do the same for Mid-America Electric Auto
> Association egroup. Both groups are hosted by Yahoo. Anyway, this week I
> got a message from the yahoos at Yahoo telling me my account was cancelled
> for violating the Terms of Service. What exactly my violation was they
> didn't say, and so far I have utterly failed to get them to explain the
> problem, or even respond to my emails. The upshot of this is while I have
> several folks waiting to be approved to join these groups, I am not
> permitted to log in and do so. Meanwhile I seem to still be able to post
> and receive messages to these groups, which makes no sense at all.
> Fortunately, I use a different ID when servicing the chapter webpage and
> my personal EV pages which are hosted on Yahoo/Geocities so I can still
> access those. Does anyone know anything about getting a response out of
> the Yahoo folks? It would be nice to at least be able to hand over
> ownership of the groups to someone else so they could continue to grow.
>
> Disaster number two. About 5:00 this evening, my laptop, which is my
> primary PC, suddenly went black and displayed a warning of a problem and
> said to reboot. I did so and that was all she wrote. It looks as though
> the hard drive has died, taking all my data with it. All it does now is
> clack loudly. Setup doesn't even see it as being installed. As is always
> the case when this sort of thing happens, my most current backup is about
> 6 months old. All EV Album submissions and email since June have been
> lost. If it hasn't already been posted to the Album, it is gone. Adding
> to the fun, I also lost the email address and file number for the Yahoo
> issue.
>
> I have now made the old CAD PC I use for a home web server and print
> server my primary PC and have my email and web editing tools up and
> running on it. It has been a long time since dual PII 400 Zeons were
> cutting edge, and Intergraph no longer even makes PCs, but despite its age
> it still does a more than adequate job. I guess it is also time to shop
> for a new laptop hard drive.
>
> Anyway, three things to share from all this. First back up your PC
> frequently. Second, if you haven't got your EV in the Album, or have
> submitted it but not seen it posted, please submit it. Third, if you
> setup an egroup, make sure you have alternate moderators with full rights,
> even if they are just you with a different user ID and email address.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> '95 Solectria Force
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.361 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/148 - Release Date: 10/25/2005
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
More delicate and sensitive electronics gets coldest water first, then
it goes to the motor and back to radiator.
Victor
Jeff Shanab wrote:
Bravo Lee. You said it
My attraction to a water cooled system is at the system level. one
radiator in one location cooling all devices in compact but distributed
system.
I am trading potential single point failure for ability to have
compact,sealed components and ability to have only 1 mechanical fan
instead of 3 or 4.
My next question is then is this possible/good idea.
With a DC motor, water cooling the motor is just not practacal but if I
was talking about an AC system, would the heat from the motor raise the
water temperature too much and at just the wrong time to the controller?
Would 2 systems, one radiator in front of the other, be a better choice
than shareing the water.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
...
have an incredible discharge capability! I've not seen evidence that any
current lithium pack can match them in 'high rate discharge', again, not
to be confused with power density, but perhaps there are some that can.
Bill best described the Bolder TMF cells this way....a regular lead acid
battery lets you take the power out of them through a milkshake
straw....TMF cells let you use a firehose! A 2.1V TMF cell the size of a
roll of Lifesavers, could output a staggering 1000 amps for one
second!!!!! If my memory serves me right, that same cell could do 300
amps for 4 seconds.
Here's my take on this, and again, I'm open to criticism.....a 200-300
lb. pack of the original Bolder TMF cells would perhaps take White
Zombie as it currently is configured, into the high 10 second region.
Wouldn't that be a trip!
The key words here are "as it currently is configured".
I'm convinced the way to do it with lithium on the track is
to use ~900VDC system, It will provide more than 2000 motor amps
while taking less than 500A from the pack. But the biggest advantage
the motor keep receiving 2000A (or whatever) till the end of the
track - it will take a lot of back EMF to loose torque because
the battery voltage is too low. In other words, at 10k RPM you still
have nearly as much torque as at start. I have simulated this
in software.
I wish you John the best results, but I see clear fundamental
limitations making it exponentially more difficult to shave off
each next tenth of a second. So "current configuration" needs
to be different.
This is not criticism, just one of the ways to move forward.
Victor
--
'91 ACRX - something different
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--- Begin Message ---
On Oct 31, 2005, at 1:27 PM, James Massey wrote:
The other catch is how do you drive the speedometer?
In an EV without a transmission mark your tach in MPH.
Paul
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Oct 31, 2005, at 1:16 PM, Ken Albright wrote:
Or would a 9" motor be overkill? I'd like a peppy car
but not a dragster. I'm thinking 120v flooded to keep
it simple. The beginning curb weight is about 2,200
lbs.
There goes peppy, right out the window. Actually, that not totally
fair. You can get peppy with 10 flooded 12 volt batteries, but
generally their life span is not that great in an EV. Its not the motor
that will define peppy (unless its way to small to take the power) but
the voltage and amps you can toss at it. Golf cart batteries don't like
dishing out over 400+ amps. Their voltage starts to fall rapidly.
Combined with their weight (great for range) increasing your vehicle
weight the result is not peppy.
A 9 inch motor in with an ADC 8 inch length might be a very good
choice. Especially true for a long range VW EV. Golf cart batteries are
a good choice for a EV with a longer range. Inexpensive upfront cost
(compared to other options), good life (if you don't amp abuse them),
and one of the least expensive ways per mile to drive an EV. In fact,
its one of only a few choices that can make an EV less expensive to
operate overall than an equivalent ICE (NiCad's are another, but tend
to have a much greater up-front cost.)
The stock tires are 185/65-14. I reckon I should
change to narrower tires. Or would changing to LRR be
sufficient? If I need to change size, does anyone know
if Rabbit wheels will fit?
That is a good size. The Prius (first generation) ran a similar
175/65-14. In fact, 65 series tires seem to be showing up on a number
of modern vehicles. Manufactures care about fuel mileage (at least for
common models - to raise their CAFE.)
Paul
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--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Robison wrote:
Roger Stockton said:
So does the seller have no responsibility to know the product he's
selling? (I'm actually asking...)
Simply opening the box and looking would reveal that the conductor is
clearly not 4 gauge, and that the jacket is curiously thick for the size
of the conductor.
As I see it, no one promised 4 gauge conductor in a wire.
They promised 4 gauge wire. A wire includes conductor and
insulation.
Everyone assumes the gauge applies to the conductor itself
(and will be right). Legally though, it was not stated
(yes, a loophole allowing deception). So what do you want now?
You should have asked what gauge is the wire and what gauge
is the copper in that wire. After all a gauge is just a size.
No one specified a size of what exactly.
If you buy a normal jump start cables with huge alligators
in a common auto store, chanced to fall into this trap are
perhaps >50% if a wire is made and packaged in the far east.
Victor
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My 96 volt Jet does not have a shunt thus no place to connect the
meters. The manual calls for a 400 amp, 40mv.
Can the following Deltec model be used? Calvin
Deltec model MKB-500-50 Shunt, 500 Amp, 50 mv, for Ammeter item #
IN2514 (Ammeter sold separately. Also used with the Link-10 meter
(fomerly the E-Meter) items number IN2530 and IN2531
Calvin
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--- Begin Message ---
On 10/31/05, Ken Albright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I finally found a donor car for my conversion project
> - a 1986 VW Scirocco. I think it's pretty much a
> sporty version of the Rabbit. Of course I have lots of
> questions.
>
> If anyone has any experience with a conversion of this
> vehicle, I'd really like to hear from you. Any special
> problems to watch out for, etc.
http://www.sciroccoev.co.uk/ is a good place to start :)
Regards
Evan
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I need Bob Salem's email if anyone or Bob can get back to me.
Thanks
Chip
NEDRA Webmaster
--- End Message ---
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At 03:08 AM 1/11/05 -0500, Calvin wrote:
My 96 volt Jet does not have a shunt thus no place to connect the
meters. The manual calls for a 400 amp, 40mv.
Can the following Deltec model be used? Calvin
Deltec model MKB-500-50 Shunt, 500 Amp, 50 mv,
Yes, a shunt is just a low value, stable resistor, with an upper limit to
the guaranteed stable amperage.
a 400A, 40mV shunt is (ohms' law) 0.04/400 is 0.1milliohms. the 500A/50mV
shunt is 0.05/500, also 0.1 milliohms.
James
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Hi Mike and All,
Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Doug,
How did you go about designing the suspension and steering elements
for your cars?
-Mike
As Doug posted, you probably mean me.
I studied a fair amount only because I need to have the best solution
for my production units. Someone wanting to do just one would be best to just
take a production unit and use it as built. The problem is few non McPherson
strut units have been built in the last 20 yrs in the weight class we need so
that option wasn't good for me.
That's the front suspension, the rear is very easy and hard to get
wrong.
I've found a very strong core material that greatly increases the
chassis strength so eliminating other structures to take loads. As I learn more
I'll let others know about it. Taking the concentrated battery weight was going
to be interesting but this core seems to solve that problem easily.
http://www.mikeellis.org
If you note the Hy-wire chassis above has 2 problems, first is it's
thickness which translates into either less room or higher vehicle height and
makes a hard point just where the crash forces will be, making for a body,
chassis speration in a crash unless extra weight, engineering it included. In
general, this type will add about 10-15% more weight than a monocoque/unibody
vehicle would with it's increased EV drive/battery pack/chassis/body material
costs.
But as I said, the real work is in the hundred of body/systems details,
parts, not the chassis, EV drive which is well documented, understood and
available.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
> > There's a concept I've been thinking about for a few months. It was
> > inspired by GM's Autonomy/Hy-wire "skateboard" fuel cell platform.
> ...
> > Designing a frame from scratch would obviously be a lot of work, but
> > it seems to have great advantages. Has something like this ever been
> > discussed on the list?
>
>
> Actually, it's not that hard, it's all that stuff you put on it that takes
> all the work.
>
> Both the Freedom EV and it's 4 wh follow on are done basicly this way though
> much thinner and the batts are on top of it. One could encase it easily to be
> the same but that would greatly diminish the flexability of it. there is a
> lot to be said for a 1" thich chassis with the other stuff mounted to it.
>
> In the Freedoms, the upper body is permently glued to the chassis but would
> be very easy to make it where it is bolted, ect on so different bodies could
> be used.
>
>
>
> Well, it has finially started as the skin coat for the first body in the
> Freedom EV molds has been done and tomarrow I bring it home to start the rest
> of it with the body being done in about a week if all goes well..
>
> The chassis will be done right after the body is finished so within 2 weeks a
> whole composite moncoque body/chassis will be done !!! Yeah !!!
>
> Been fighting with my computer but it's fixed now. Managed to do some horse
> trading with the local computer store to do the repairs.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jerry Dycus
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
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ANY metal in the oil won't hurt the zilla at all. You are running the
coolant through a passage that is connected to the drivers but they don't
actually touch. Besides, oil is not really conductive. As for metal in the
tranny - you will always have some. My rule of thumb is if it is greater
than 1 tsp at the oil change interval than either something is wrong or I
have been power shifting too much. Usually it is me driving badly causing
the metal. Normal wear will cause metal particles to collect on the drain
plug anyways. As for a pump, you could hook it to the drain plug and have
the return go back to the fill plug.
-----Original Message-----
From: David Dymaxion [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 12:33 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Bits and Pieces - air vs water cooling
Several folks have said to not worry about chunks of metal in the
tranny oil, just to filter it out.
First, manual trannies don't have a pump. If you put a filter inline
with an automatic it'll lower its efficiency (autos use screens, not
fine filters like a motor oil filter). Some of the metals are not
magnetic, so won't be caught by a magnet.
Second, serious car nuts with valuable machines (like Ferrari owners)
have their oils spectroscopically analyzed every change. There are
always traces of metals in the oil, despite filtering. If the metal
content suddenly rises, then they start to worry something is
failing, and can fix it before it becomes a catastrophic failure.
So are these minute traces of metal enough to cause a problem in a
controller passing 100 kW of power? I don't know, but I'd be worried
about directly wetting the electronics with it! Next time I drain
tranny oil from my ICE I'll try to remember to measure the
resistance, or maybe two probes in the filler hole might work.
-----Original Message-----
From: David Dymaxion [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 12:28 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Bits and Pieces - air vs water cooling
Creative thinking! A warning, though, tranny oil is likely to have
bits of metal in it and may not be insulating, so I'd be nervous
about running it directly in contact with electronics.
__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com
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Jim,
Even though it is only pulling 24 amps it will be pulling it for a
long time. It would just be safer to have everything rated for 40 amps so
that you had room to grow or a healthy safty margin.
Jody
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Coate [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 8:53 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: wiring the garage for EVs...
This is electrician-oriented...
I'm planning to add an Avcon (ICS) charger and eventually a Magnecharger
to the barn/garage which is ~50 feet away from the house. Fortunately
the house has a 200 amp service feed :-)
The prior owner/builder did something weird running separate neutral and
ground wires out to the barn and then joining them together on a single
neutral bar once there. I'm sure this is wrong.
Question is what is right? Is it treated like a sub-panel in the same
building with separate ground and neutral wires from the house, kept
separate in the sub-panel? Or more like a service entrance with only the
neutral coming from the house and a new ground established from ground
rod(s).
(and yes I know that ground rods aren't always the greatest 'ground' but
that is what is accepted practice...)
For bonus points, the ICS units says it pulls 24 amps maximum (which
just happens to be 80% of 30 amps). Yet the installation directions say
to use a 40 amp breaker. Any reason to use the larger breaker and
wiring, rather than a 30 amp breaker?
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
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On 11/1/05, Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> For bonus points, the ICS units says it pulls 24 amps maximum (which
> just happens to be 80% of 30 amps). Yet the installation directions say
> to use a 40 amp breaker. Any reason to use the larger breaker and
> wiring, rather than a 30 amp breaker?
Perhaps they are allowing for the fact that the charger will typically
be located on the end of a long run. Since the cable sizing is
calculated from the voltage drop, which depends on the distance,
they're probably just allowing a reasonable margin so that you don't
have to work it out for each situation.
Regarding the wiring installation you've got there, it doesn't sound
correct. I would ask an electrician - the choice of what you should
do depends on whether your property is earthed with TN-S or TN-C-S or
TT, and what the Ze of the installation will end up.
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Chip,
If you get Bob's email, ask him if he wants to meet us in Hagerstown
this Saturday for an impromptu Fall Classic EV race.
-----Original Message-----
From: Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 04:04:44 -0500
Subject: Need Bob Salem's Email
Hi,
I need Bob Salem's email if anyone or Bob can get back to me.
Thanks
Chip
NEDRA Webmaster
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Hello Jim,
I used to teach this subject. This is only one section of Wiring methods and
overcurrent protection.
If you have one main service disconnect feed to one building and its sub-feeds
to another building using a branch circuit breaker, this is consider as a
branch circuit to that building.
The first panel that comes from the transformer, is call the service disconnect
panel. In a single phase service, they may be two lines and a neutral coming
in from the transformer. In this case, the neutral conductor connecting to a
insulated neutral bar is than jumper to a ground bar which is bonded to the
metal enclosure. This is the only time this is done which is at the first
service panel from a transformer.
This neutral to ground connection normally is done in the meter box, or a
combination meter and main circuit breaker box.
A ground rod is install below the meter box and a ground wire is install only
to the ground bar in the first service connect panel which is enclosed in
either a insulated conduit or a metal conduit that is ground bonded at both
ends. A painted conduit knock out connection does not make a good connection
for grounding a metal conduit.
If you have any copper water pipes in the building, then they shall be bonded
with a ground wire to the first ground bar that the ground rod is bonded to.
You then will run 4 wires from the service disconnect, which is two line wires,
a neutral wire and a ground wire from now on. The neutral bar in each
sub-panel shall be a insulated neutral bar that is insulated from the panel
enclosure. The ground bar is a non-insulated bar that is bond to the panel.
To sub-feed a second panel, either in the same building or another build, this
is from a branch circuit breaker from the main panel. You then continue to run
a 4 wire branch circuit with separate neutral and ground wire going to each
connection bars.
You said, that a neutral and ground was run to a separate building, so all you
have to do, is to install a ground bar or two ground bar, one on both sides of
the panel. This is so you do not to cross from one side to the other with
ground wires. If you used two ground bars in one panel, than the branch feeder
ground wire is connected to one bar and a jumper wire of same size is jumper to
the other ground bar.
At the main circuit breaker panel or call the first service disconnect panel
coming in from the transformer, has only a single meter base which is not a
combination outside meter main panel, then the neutral and ground coming from
the ground rod may be connected together at the main service panel.
In this case, the neutral bar is bonded to a steel panel with a bonding screw.
This was how the older services were done. If we do any rewire in this panel,
we than install ground bars in this panel and pull the bonding screw that
grounds the neutral bar to the panel, to make it a insulated neutral bar.
We than run a wire jumper from the grounding bars to the neutral bar or If the
meter is remove in the rewire, than we install a larger set screw grounding lug
in the meter box where a jumper wire is connected to the meter neutral, another
wire to the ground rod wire and a the service entrance ground to the main panel.
The connection of the ground conductor to a grounding electrode at a separate
building that is sub-feed with a branch circuit breaker from a service
disconnect shall not be made.
If a second building service is tap right off the service conductors, not going
threw a branch or main breaker or meter base at the service entrance, than the
second building shall be consider as the first service disconnect, where the
neutral and ground rod wire is bonded together at the second main panel.
This normally comes right off the transformer service conductors. If this went
through only one meter base feeding both buildings, than the conductor feeding
the second building must be the same size as the service wires coming from the
transformer. This is normally not done with under ground feeders from the
meter base. We always install a second main breaker either from the first
service panel or a combination meter-circuit breaker panel.
If the second panel is more than 30 feet from the main panel, (30 foot walking)
then the sub or branch panels, need to have a main circuit breaker in it. This
distance will vary with the local codes.
The interrupting rating of circuit breakers for branch breakers, power panel
breakers, and service mains, shall be rated so that the branch breaker has a
lower interrupting rating then the next one up the line.
Normally a standard branch breaker will a interrupting rating of 5000 amps
while the mains have a 10,000 amps for residential electrical. We now used
interrupting rating of 10,000 amps for branch breakers and 22,500 or 65,000 for
service mains
There are also special circuit breakers that are the same size as your branch
circuit breakers that are design for different loads from resistance and
inductance circuits for ballast type lights, transformers and welders.
You normally used a wire for 125% for the current it is using. A 30 amp
circuit breaker for 24 amps on a No. 10 AWG wire that the length I prefer is to
be not over 30 feet from the panel.
Welders or other transformers may draw over 200% of its name plate rated
ampere, but because of its duty cycle, (pulse on-off) it can be wire and
circuit breaker for the name plate rated ampere, but the correct circuit
breaker is required for a high interrupting circuit.
A standard 30 amp circuit breaker may hold for awhile for a 24 amp load with a
interrupting of 5000 amps. We normally used a circuit breaker that could range
from 10,000 to 22,500 amp interrupting rating with a service entrance breaker
set at 65,000 to 250,000 amp interrupting.
You can get the info from a circuit breaker manual from the same electrical
supply house that handles your type of breaker panel. A circuit breaker that
will be design for the application you want could be rated at 30 amps on a 24
amps load.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Coate<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 6:53 PM
Subject: wiring the garage for EVs...
This is electrician-oriented...
I'm planning to add an Avcon (ICS) charger and eventually a Magnecharger
to the barn/garage which is ~50 feet away from the house. Fortunately
the house has a 200 amp service feed :-)
The prior owner/builder did something weird running separate neutral and
ground wires out to the barn and then joining them together on a single
neutral bar once there. I'm sure this is wrong.
Question is what is right? Is it treated like a sub-panel in the same
building with separate ground and neutral wires from the house, kept
separate in the sub-panel? Or more like a service entrance with only the
neutral coming from the house and a new ground established from ground
rod(s).
(and yes I know that ground rods aren't always the greatest 'ground' but
that is what is accepted practice...)
For bonus points, the ICS units says it pulls 24 amps maximum (which
just happens to be 80% of 30 amps). Yet the installation directions say
to use a 40 amp breaker. Any reason to use the larger breaker and
wiring, rather than a 30 amp breaker?
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com<http://www.eeevee.com/>
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