EV Digest 4912
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Robin Reliant move over
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Battery Beach Burnout (FL Race) Update(OT: RAV4 acceleration)
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) affordable kit option for scratch builders
by Carl Clifford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Just Joshin' Electric-car driver was not an eco-terrorist, FBI admits,
comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) World's Fastest Indian
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Motor com banding, was Re: Motor pic site up
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) CalCars Visit to Seattle a Resounding Success
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Motor com banding, was Re: Motor pic site up
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: affordable kit option for scratch builders
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Solar Recharging Station for EV's
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) EV knowledge in Belmont, WI? [Electric powered farm cart]
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Motor com banding, was Re: Motor pic site up
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Range extending
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Solar Recharging Station for EV's
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Motor com banding, was Re: Motor pic site up
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Range extending
by Chris Martens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Traction Control with DC??
by "Rodney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV Confidential Update
by toltec <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
TOWN OF HILLSBOROUGH
San Mateo County
Thomas M. Kasten, Mayor 1600 Floribunda Avenue
Catherine U. Mullooly, Vice Mayor Hillsborough, CA
94010
D. Paul Regan
John J. Fannon
Christine M. Krolik
HILLSBOROUGH CITY COUNCIL
Monday, November 14, 2005, 6:00 p.m.
Hillsborough Town Hall, 1600 Floribunda Avenue,
Hillsborough
11. RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING $19,729 FOR THE PURCHASE OF
TWO ZAP XEBRA ELECTRIC VEHICLES, AND ACCEPTING THE BAY
AREA AIR QUALITY MANAGEMENT DISTRICT'S $2,000
REIMBURSEMENT (Public Works Director)
Summary: Staff proposed in the 2005/06 budget the
acquisition of two electric vehicles for $15,000 in
the Public Works Administration budget to serve as
pool cars. Electric vehicles were considered as an
option in order to reduce noise generated by vehicles
traveling in and out of the Municipal Service Center
and minimize operation costs. Employees using the
vehicles will include clerical staff, inspectors and
others who will limit their travels within the Town's
jurisdiction.
Several vehicles and manufacturers were considered
before soliciting a proposal. The class of vehicle
studied is called Neighborhood Electric Vehicles or
NEV's, which is typically used for short commutes in
residential areas. Most NEV's are mechanically
regulated to a limited speed of 25 mph. Because of
Hillsborough's topography, the power of the vehicles
to climb steeper grades was closely evaluated. The
vehicle that most closely matches the Town's budget
and needs was the ZAP Xebra, which is a 3-wheeled,
4-passenger vehicle. The vehicle is manufactured in
Santa Rosa, and will be serviced from that location.
Average cost of operation per year is estimated at
$300. A full discussion of the vehicles evaluated is
in the attached letter from William Boenig of CSG who
researched the acquisition of the vehicles. ZAP has
also committed to allowing the return of the vehicles
if they do not perform adequately when placed into
service in Hillsborough.
The Xebra is sold exclusively by the manufacturer ZAP
Inc. of Santa Rosa. Because there are no other
distributors of the vehicles, no other proposals were
solicited. The bid price for the two ZAP Xebras is
$19,729 including tax, license and delivery fees.
Staff applied for and received grant vouchers from the
Bay Area Air Quality Management District to reimburse
the Town $1,000 per NEV ($2,000 total), which would
reduce the Town's total cost to $17,729.
Recommendation: Staff recommends adoption of the
resolution authorizing $19,729 for the purchase of two
ZAP Xebra electric vehicles, and accepting the Bay
Area Air Quality Management District's $2,000
reimbursement vouchers.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Charles Whalen wrote:
>I am not interested in any type of racing, however,
>since with an anemic 17 second 0-to-60 time, there's
>really not much point in that!
Toyota could have put in a 107 horsepower Siemen's AC
motor/inverter and not only dropped the 0-60 time to about
11-12 seconds(about what the stock RAV4 achieves, and on par
with a typical car), but made the vehicle cheaper to produce
as well...
The NiMH pack probably could have handled it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a heads up - i'm not affiliated, just thought it might interest someone.
Here's a clean looking kit that fits on a beetle pan and it's quite
affordable. If you drop 1000 lbs using it and then add it back with batteries,
maybe you don't need any suspension/brake mods and parts are cheap.
http://bluesteelperformance.net/
Carl Clifford
grinless in Denver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Roderick Wilde wrote:
On another note, Monster Garage will be doing an EV episode. I have
been contacted by them as well as several other ampheads. It seems
they may want performance.
Yeah, I've also been contacted. It would be great to have EVs presented
in a positive light on a hotrodder's show with a large audience. We'll
have to wait to see what the producer has in mind. So far, it appears
they want a hi pro type EV build, so I'm all ears! I'm hoping that if
they peruse the Maniac Mazda and Plasma Boy webpages, the concept of
electric performance will hit them like a sledge hammer, right between
the eyes!
See Ya....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
'We didn't blow things up, so you might have to'
Correction: I guess there was that little arcy-sparky thing at Woodburn :-)
http://plasmaboyracing.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: Just Joshin' Electric-car driver was not an eco-terrorist, FBI
admits
> On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 12:17:02 -0800, "Lawrence Rhodes"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >FROM THE DAILY GRIST
> >
> >
> >The FBI will issue a rare "letter of regret" and pay environmentalist
Josh
> >Connole $100,000 after mistakenly arresting him for domestic terrorism.
His suspicious
> >activities included living communally with fellow vegans, installing
solar
> >panels, protesting the Iraq war, and (horrors!) driving an electric car.
> (Snip a bit)
> Hmm, seems like a case where a little FBI-administered brutality was
> completely justified. Too bad they didn't shoot him. Maybe they'll
> lace the money with anthrax spores before they give it to him.
>
> John
I saw the sarcasm here, a mourning chuckle<g> Next, a "No Fly" excuse
why ya cant fly out to Woodburn for the races? If anybody cought the Amtrak
hearings on C Span last nite?It went like the above stuff. Fire David
Gunn,as Amtrak CEO, ! He was doing a good job! Gotta get RID of him. Bettya
they(FBI) followed him, to get a bad skinny , to defame him??
Seeya
Bob
> ---
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This movie looks pretty good, <http://www.worldsfastestindian.com/>,
check out the trailer. I'm especially excited to see it, since I plan
to race on the Salt Flats myself (less than a 2 hour drive from my
house).
I can see my own version of this movie now. Keanu Reeves plays David
Dymaxion in "The World's Fastest Electric Conversion." You hear
excited screams of "Yes! Yes!" and then the camera pans to me/Keanu
in front of a computer, finger on a particular number in a screenful
of numbers, and then he excitedly types out an email message
announcing the sim shows he can get into the 130 club. Pan out to the
Salt. Tech is a non-event. The run itself is smooth and quiet. In
lieu of NASCAR cheerleaders his young daughter jumps up and down and
yells "Yay daddy!"
Well, maybe not the most exciting movie, but it is my dream!
__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 06:17:48 -0800 (PST), jerry dycus
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't understand why people use Kevlar for this as it has a
> fairly low melting point !! One would be much better off using either
> fiberglass or Carbon fiber with melting points in the 1,000's instead of
> Kevlar in the hundreds.. Personally I'd use fiberglass and a high temp
> epoxy.
> I'd also twist it so it takes less room so more metal to disapate
> heat.
Kevlar doesn't have a melting point. It starts to decompose at about
400 deg C. (750 F). If a motor gets that hot, there are more problems
than the Kevlar breaking down.
Some poop on Kevlar:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A791291
I don't use carbon because a) it is conductive, b) it has very low
impact strength, c) Kevlar is more resilient than either carbon or
fiberglass and d) it is very abrasive. Another reason is that the
binding agent (epoxy or whatever) doesn't bond at tightly as it does
to Kevlar without special surface energy prep that I can't do in my
shop.
Fiberglass is much weaker and much heavier than Kevlar, both important
on rotating devices. The lighter fiber makes creating an imbalance a
little less likely.
I do use a high temperature epoxy that is rated to 500 deg C. I can't
pull the brand name off the top of my head but I can find out if
anyone is interested.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rodric:
The Folks from CalCars HAVE contacted Toyota from time to time. They
said that TOYOTA used to say (about PHEV's) "No Way !" but now, NOW
they are saying..."Lets take another look"
The THING I would like to see CalCars or some one do, is to have a
large data-base type questionare sent out to as Many Toyota Prius Owners
as they could afford, Where the Following Questions would be Asked:
-----------
If you could have bought your Toyota Prius which would PLUG IN,thereby
giveing you TWO energy input sources, and average OVER 100 mpg on a
weekly basis, would you have paid ??
A: $7500. extra
b. $5000. extra
c. $2500. extra
d. only if it were no extra.
------------
Then with 10 or 20 thousand responses IN HAND, Turn the DATA over to
TOYOTA ( And of course all News Outlets Possible....)
I think THAT would make Toyota Stand UP and take notice.
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Jerry, Neon, all
The unbaked banding may look like packaging tape but is a glass strand
banding wrap. It's strong and class H insulation and is standard fare for
armatures. I've been contacted and asked about other banding materials but
they are notthing I've ever delt with. The picture with the little guy next to
it shows the existing banding the armature came with. The other pic shows
where I intend to bring the banding to, and that is, right to the riser edge
(see Wayland's armatures, I banded them to edge on the Siamese 8). This comm
really needs that extra banding as it is what I call a stacked riser and is a
larger comm. in diameter. A stacked riser means there is no copper in riser
which the windings are fitted into but are instead laid on the comm. and tigged
into place. I have alot of buddies in the industry and one of my most trusted
has told me that if not tig'd right it can lead to loose bars and blown comm's.
Now as to banding the comm. edge, first I need someone to give permission for
me to cut their comm. to try it. heres are a couple of problems that face
those who would like to try this. First the banding needs to be baked (to
harden it) at least, and really should be dipped before baking it. Now the
groove or cut down shoulder would need to be deep enough to allow the
undercutter blade to cut the mica slot and not saw through the banding. The
second issue is that there is usually not enuogh comm edge (that sticks passed
brushes) to allow this, so one would need to space the brush ring further up
with a washer. That is if there is room to do that. I've even thought I could
make a groove and band in the center of the comm. where on an ADC there is a
small area where there is no brush contact, but this just might cuase a weak
area like a hing where the comm would pry at the outer edge of the banding and
break there. I'm less than a year into facing the challenges you a!
ll have
faced for years, so much needs to be tested and worked on. I'm all ears for
those wanting me to hack up their comm's (any takers??) LMAO. Even if I was to
try this on a junker motor I have, most are smaller than the 9 inch (if I had
those I'd sell to you guys rather than kill it) but then we would need a second
as a base unit to see if it helped or hurt. Knowing what works is 99 % of the
battle. In huge degrees it's a catch 22 and for everything one does it just
pushes the weak link to another area (it will not remove it), just something to
think about. We all know money talks and if one was to throw enough at a motor
you could increase those weak area to a much higher threshold. Most of us here
are more of a shoe string budget kinda people. Much of my focus has been in
ways one can improve the limits of these motors at a reasonable cost, or even
by yourself (which is why I'm posting what we are doing here). I'd like to
thank all those here for the kind words. Mark!
and
Chris actually went out and grabbed some Hi-Torque domains for me (how cool is
that) so that I might better serve, thanks so much guys. Glad you have enjoyed
the site I'll post pics as things move along.
Hope this answered some of your questions
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi John, Jim and All,
Neon John wrote: Great start, Jim. I really enjoy motor pix :-)
I have some questions.
In the Warp 9 photo series, you show some unbaked banding. That looks
like filament packing tape. Is that what you're using?
Referencing the same photo, have you given any consideration to
banding the bearing end of the commutator, perhaps by machining a
groove at the end and wrapping with kevlar thread and epoxy? I'm
I don't understand why people use Kevlar for this as it has a fairly low
melting point !! One would be much better off using either fiberglass or Carbon
fiber with melting points in the 1,000's instead of Kevlar in the hundreds..
Personally I'd use fiberglass and a high temp epoxy.
I'd also twist it so it takes less room so more metal to disapate heat.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
thinking about doing that to my hotrodded CitiCar motor to make it
more likely to withstand high RPM operation. I'm interested in your
thoughts.
I've kevlar banded both ends of the windings down to the comm bar
risers and have observed the armature with a Strobotach while running
it at 8000 RPM on the bench. I saw absolutely no movement. I'm still
concerned about the bearing end of the comm, particularly when it is
hot.
In the last photo in the TinyTim series, you show a Warp 9 armature
next to the little motor. Is the white band in the center of the Warp
9 armature banding? Is this something you added or does the Warp
armature come that way?
On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 13:56:03 -0800 (PST), Jim Husted
wrote:
>Hey all
>
> I've been trying to get a web site up where I could at least share with you
> all some pic's of motors and stuff. Do to my stupidity I won't have modem
> internet again till the 19th. I finished up-loading some pics today at the
> shop via dial-up (OMG). I decided to go ahead and give you guys a link rather
> than wait till I add the latest, and some older pics. I tried to make it as
> dial-up friendly but some of the pics take a bit to load but not to bad I
> hope. I think you all should find it a useful tool as we discuss motor stuff.
> There are some "glad I'm not that guy" pics up but I have alot more to post
> when my cable is back up this weekend. Anyway I hope you all enjoy the site.
> www.freewebs.com/hitorqueelectric/
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
>---------------------------------
> Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, I like the e-mail address at the bottom, too
" [EMAIL PROTECTED] "
LOL
--- Carl Clifford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just a heads up - i'm not affiliated, just thought
> it might interest someone.
>
> Here's a clean looking kit that fits on a beetle
> pan and it's quite affordable. If you drop 1000 lbs
> using it and then add it back with batteries, maybe
> you don't need any suspension/brake mods and parts
> are cheap.
>
> http://bluesteelperformance.net/
>
> Carl Clifford
> grinless in Denver
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Robert
I have been involved with a couple of charging station projects.
More info-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/CSpage.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/trailerpage.html
http://www.renewables.com/
http://www.renewables.com/Shelter/bipv.htm
HTH!
Robert Chew wrote:
Hi All,
I am writing to express my interest in a solar re-charging station for
EV's.
I know this sounds very inefficient, but using a bank of batteries charged
from a solar array, to top up the batteries of the EV. Most of us are out
during the day so cannot take in the solar energy directly. And most of us
do not have enough space on our roof to put large solar modules on that
would be of benefit to re-charging.
And the price of electricity here in Australia is dirt cheap compared to
rest of the world. But still, its green power we are using here. And yes,
the embodied energy of solar modules and the re-melting of the lead plates
for new batteries is large..
Anyone shine some light on this topic.
.
Roy LeMeur
Olympia WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Someone contacted me from my website, looking for suggestions on an
electric farm cart project. I'm thinking electric scooter parts and
maybe hub wheels? Details below.
If anyone is near Belmont, WI and would like to speak to the farmer
directly and possibly lend a hand and EV knowledge, let me know (off
list) and I'll send along his contact info.
-------- Original Message --------
<snip>
I am a small vegetable farmer in Wisconsin interested in building an
electric-powered cart for use in transplanting, harvesting, and
hand-weeding. This cart would have 2 axles, four wheels, a frame, and a
massage-chair-like seat which would allow the user to ride face-down in
a prone position. The two wheels on each axle would be wide enough to
straddle a bed, and the frame would be high enough to allow the user to
ride over a bed and work from the prone position. The wheels would be
powered by electric motors and a battery. The user would control the
speed of the motors via foot pedals, with one foot pedal controlling the
speed of the wheels on each side of the cart to permit steering.
Basically I am hoping to duplicate a machine called the Crawler,
manufactured in Finland (www.elomestari.fi -->
http://personal.inet.fi/yritys/elomestari/english/crawler.htm) and very
expensive to import.
I can build the frame but I will need to learn more before I can select
and install motors and battery. Do you know of any print or web
resources which can educate me on this topic? Do you know of any
knowledgeable people who could educate me?
Hoping you can point me in the right direction - thanks for your time.
Chris
Belmont, WI
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:12:54 -0800 (PST), Jim Husted
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hey Jerry, Neon, all
>
> The unbaked banding may look like packaging tape but is a glass strand
> banding wrap. It's strong and class H insulation and is standard fare for
> armatures. I've been contacted and asked about other banding materials but
> they are notthing I've ever delt with.
Can you give me a little more info on the material? I moonlight at my
friend's electric motor shop. They don't have anything like that in
stock. They don't do high power DC armatures, instead, they farm them
out. They also don't do any performance work. In fact my friend just
sorta stares at me with that 1000 yard look when I talk about
hotrodding a motor :-) But I do get to use the shop tools.
> Now as to banding the comm. edge, first I need someone to give permission
> for me to cut their comm. to try it. heres are a couple of problems that
> face those who would like to try this. First the banding needs to be baked
> (to harden it) at least, and really should be dipped before baking it. Now
> the groove or cut down shoulder would need to be deep enough to allow the
> undercutter blade to cut the mica slot and not saw through the banding. The
> second issue is that there is usually not enuogh comm edge (that sticks
> passed brushes) to allow this, so one would need to space the brush ring
> further up with a washer. That is if there is room to do that. I've even
> thought I could make a groove and band in the center of the comm. where on an
> ADC there is a small area where there is no brush contact, but this just
> might cuase a weak area like a hing where the comm would pry at the outer
> edge of the banding and break there.
I think I'm going to give it a try. On the GE motor I'm working with,
there is a little more room at the edge of the comm. It doesn't need
it right now but if I needed to cut the mica, I'd do it before
wrapping.
I use a Kevlar flat tape that I order from Aircraft Spruce for
wrapping the winding and commutator. I'll use some Kevlar thread for
the comm. I use a high temperature epoxy. It requires a low
temperature (~200 deg) bake but nothing like a varnish dip. I've done
this to RC car motors with success but I was interested in your
thoughts about a large comm.
I like the idea of another wrap between the brushes. I think I'll do
that too. Maybe the center of the armature as in the Warp. This
motor may have to spin as high as 10k rpm to achieve the vehicle speed
I want. I've spun it at 8K at room temperature and watched it with a
strobotach and saw no movement at all so 10k should be doable, I
think.
>I'm less than a year into facing the challenges you a!
> ll have
> faced for years, so much needs to be tested and worked on. I'm all ears for
> those wanting me to hack up their comm's (any takers??) LMAO. Even if I was
> to try this on a junker motor I have, most are smaller than the 9 inch (if I
> had those I'd sell to you guys rather than kill it) but then we would need a
> second as a base unit to see if it helped or hurt. Knowing what works is 99
> % of the battle. In huge degrees it's a catch 22 and for everything one does
> it just pushes the weak link to another area (it will not remove it), just
> something to think about. We all know money talks and if one was to throw
> enough at a motor you could increase those weak area to a much higher
> threshold. Most of us here are more of a shoe string budget kinda people.
> Much of my focus has been in ways one can improve the limits of these motors
> at a reasonable cost, or even by yourself (which is why I'm posting what we
> are doing here). I'd like to thank all those here for the kind words. Mar!
k!
hey, this is shoestring hotrodding! Mod it until something breaks,
then back off and try something else until that breaks and keep it up
until your wallet screams for relief :-)
I sure would like to know how fast Jeff's motor got before it
exploded. Jim, can you give me the major dimensions of that armature?
Weight, overall length, diameter, length of the iron, etc. If Jeff
can tell me about how fast the motor was going and how much throttle
when he hit the clutch then maybe I can simulate it and at least get
to an order of magnitude on the speed. I could at least generate a
plot of time vs speed.
While I'm on the subject, is there any other damage to Jeff's
armature? Bulged end coils, slot boards coming out, anything like
that?
Thanks,
John
> and
> Chris actually went out and grabbed some Hi-Torque domains for me (how cool
> is that) so that I might better serve, thanks so much guys. Glad you have
> enjoyed the site I'll post pics as things move along.
kewl!
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Stefan and All,
"Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Chris wrote:
> This has the advantage of running the gas motor at full throttle when
it is
> running, greatly increasing it's efficiency.
Very true Chris. And a main reason a series hybrid drive works
well besides much less weight.
Watch out for decreased engine life... you will need to keep the engine
at 40-60% redline RPM for it to last very long, perhaps with mixture
settings/intake heating - see http://cpl.usc.edu/throttleless/ for a
possible idea.
Lets see, 1000 hrs at 60 mph equals 60,000 miles !! Just how much
life do you need?
If you are going for a battery dominated hybrid, the motor will be
run very little if you have decent range of 60+ miles. And that's why it is
much better, more eff than carrying a larger motor, trans around all that time
you don't need it, wasting much power and making the EV drive, batts more
expensive.
The engine will only be seeing a limited RPM range in actual use, the
throttling action should be small. Engines can be adjusted to run at
different RPM/intake restriction efficiencies.
Just the throttle plate make a fair amount less eff and one
reason diesels are more eff as no throttling losses. And to carry a larger
engine, transmission so you can run it at part throttle increases weight,
lowering eff.. It also increases costs in many ways .
Compression ratios, valve
timing, and mixture settings are typically the way to do this. Hunt
around for tech info on large compressor/hight duty cycle fixed
generator setups. They have done alot of good research in this field to
eek out every last drop of fuel in these kinds of installations.
I'm just not sure that the increase in efficiency of running a
specialized ICE setup will make up for the comparative loss in
efficiencies when running a series configuration..
I am and building one which I expect to get 100 mpg from which to me
is eff enough for the few times I'll need it. My generator will weigh about 120
lbs total and can be removed until needed. With a 100 mile unlimited range, it
won't be needed much.
. (a simple mechanical
coupling can run at almost 100% power transmission eff., AFAIK
generators+wires+batteries are quite there yet) Hey, I may be completely
wrong here, so it's good to have ppl pushing the practical envelopes of
both configs ;)
Jerry wrote:
> Robin/Subaru motors are more eff, cleaner. Also the 3cyl Metro motor
only weighs about 100 lbs with even cleaner, more eff power.
I have heard that about Robins from other kart stands, but no one I met
so far can attest to the durability of these. (anyone?)
It has the best rep of all the industral engines. It's a long life
motor and even has ign advance for better eff.
How big is the 3
cyl Metro? But more importantly, can I buy one new (or slightly used)
and get ample parts down the line?
Lots available cheap. It's about 2/3 the size of the Rotax and more
eff, lower emissions. Many small experimental aircraft use it instead of the
costly Rotax.
Heck, if money was no object, I would be tempted to get a Rotax (912UL -
134LB, 50HP/55FtLB/4.2GPH @ 4800RPM, 81HP/72FtLB/6.3GPH @ 5800RPM) :D
But alas, I'm looking for practicality over performance.
I'm demanding both at a reasonable cost.
> Unless you go to the larger motors, it's better to go series hybrid
and save the cost, hassle of mechanicly coupling it to the drive wheels.
> For a low drag aero EV, I go for 5-7hp/1,000lbs of vehicle for
continious driving.
Yup, those are the figures I'm using. So for a 2,000lbs vehicle, that
means 6HP from the ICE, 6HP from the electric motor.
Not going to work !! EV hp is much more powerful than ICE hp as the
series EV motor makes 5x the rated hp and 9x the rated torque. And 12 hp cont
will barely get you 60 mph on the flat, no wind and take minutes to get there.
What I meant was the hp driving the generator. The EV will have at
least 24 rated hp, thus much more for acceleration which the ICE can't do, not
even close. My EV, sometimes hybrid, weighs about 1500 lbs complete.
Hmm... when I
tallied it up, the cost and complexity of series setups came out much
higher:
Lets see,
Series: ICE, ICE Control,
On-off switch, not very hard, either full throttle or off.
Generator, Coupling, Wiring, Charger/Regulator
Direct drive and sized to be correct, thus no control other than the
motor on/off switch and unlimited range.
Parallel: ICE, ICE Control,
Fairly complicated, hassle, very low power output, much more
expensive as much larger, heavier motor, transmission required and must stop
and charge batts after 2 hrs in your case..
Clutch/Coupling (to electric motor
drivetrain, not wheels)
Same thing !! Replaced by 2 wires in the series setup.
This is given that that Charger/Regulator cost comes in close to the ICE
cost! (if you actually want to keep your batteries, especially with AGM)
Do you have any ideas to lower those cost?
Yes, turn it off when it isn't needed. No controls needed other than
an on/off switch. You could have a high voltage cut off if you like but that's
very simple.
Now as far as "better", that is what we are not sure of at this point.
There just have not been enough real-world implementations of either
setup to convince me one way or another, especially with ELECTRIC
hybrids instead of GAS hybrids (electricity being the prime mover
instead of gas). We can guess and assume all we what, still doesn't
necessarily make any of us right ;)
This is such a infantile field of study, who knows what we will find out
as we all experiment with it. I think that the more diverging paths of
research and fiddling at the beginning, the better for all further down
the road (pun intended). And the "better" setup will change over time as
other new tech is introduced from other fields of study. I'm simply
going with what I'm good at (mechanical drive systems, embedded
microprocessor control systems). This ensure that I have at least a
chance of doing it well. There are some gear-heads/computer techs among
us after all... an atlantic series engine humming along at 8000RPM is
still a mighty beautiful thing to me ;) Something about
100HP/100MPH/Liter is vaguely seductive. I don't see ICE as evil, just
not "what's next". Those of you familiar with electrical systems,
generators, battery management and the like would probably find more
success with a series setup.
You, like many others here just want gadgets, KIS. You only need the
average power with a series hybrid vs 4-8x's as much for a parallel one. Your
choice.
So, anyone with alternative clutch ideas?
Centrifical, variable pully, electric, manual ect.
> Only Ni-cads will do that much, Derate lead batts 35% or more.
> Just what car are you going to have at that weight?
See how little I know about batts? I thought some of the Trojans went
over 200Ah when running an hour? Did I miss your point perhaps?
Trojans and other good GC batts will put out about 130-150 amphrs
at the 1 hr rate.
The car is a 1968 Datsun 2000 Roadster, and that IS the complete weight
of the car right now in my garage (sans original ICE and related gunk,
gas tank, electrical, wheels/tires). I bought it from someone who had it
setup for racing, so it has already been lightened and stiffened and
plenty of suspension added for
the extra weight. I removed all the extra racing safety stuff and found
myself at that weight on the jackstands.
What is it's weight that way? you'll need 50 to 100% of the cars
weight without batts, in batts for 50 to 100 mile range.
The 2000 isn't very aero so maybe more if you want range at speed.
A good aero hardtop would help along with other mods.
> The 8" or 2- 6.7" Since you will be going much longer than an hr, you
need a bigger motor to handle the longer power.
Actually, I checked and a 8" w/tailshaft will fit nicely in there
(couple inches on either side), with plenty of headroom above for a
typical 250cc-ish ICE. The goal is to go around 2 hours a run, and I
would like this car to last quite a long time, if possible. Thanks for
the info!
Well, better go out and check to see if the fiberglass on my body
has set up.
Your welcome,
Jerry Dycus
--
Stefan T. Peters
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
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--- Begin Message ---
Kewl. You mentioned making your own concrete support posts. did you
use a pre-stressed design or just concrete and rebar? That has me
thinking about a building I'm about to erect.
John
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:54:21 -0800, "Roy LeMeur"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Hi Robert
>
>I have been involved with a couple of charging station projects.
>
>More info-
>http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/CSpage.html
>http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/trailerpage.html
>http://www.renewables.com/
>http://www.renewables.com/Shelter/bipv.htm
>
>HTH!
>
>
>
>Robert Chew wrote:
>>
>>Hi All,
>>
>>I am writing to express my interest in a solar re-charging station for
>>EV's.
>>I know this sounds very inefficient, but using a bank of batteries charged
>>from a solar array, to top up the batteries of the EV. Most of us are out
>>during the day so cannot take in the solar energy directly. And most of us
>>do not have enough space on our roof to put large solar modules on that
>>would be of benefit to re-charging.
>>
>>And the price of electricity here in Australia is dirt cheap compared to
>>rest of the world. But still, its green power we are using here. And yes,
>>the embodied energy of solar modules and the re-melting of the lead plates
>>for new batteries is large..
>>Anyone shine some light on this topic.
>>
>.
>
>
>
>
>Roy LeMeur
>Olympia WA
>
>My Electric Vehicle Pages:
>http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
>
>Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
>http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
>
>EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
>http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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Hey Neon
If you look at the OUCH photo album you'll see a blown Warp 9 armature, well
thats Jeff's armature, Thanks Jeff ; )
No other damage was suffered by the blowout as the armature is concered, the
rest of the motor is pretty FUBAR though. Armature laminations, fan, and shaft
are the only true survivors. I'll take some pics with a tape measure for
referance after Saturday and post it there and record the measurements on the
pic bio.
The banding part number through Electrical Insulation Suplliers (EIS) is
76870 made by Insulating Materials Inc. for those interested. I'm sure EIS
has some stats on it also if one were to look. My book shows 220 degrees C and
1000 tensile strength LB. Min. and a 27 % resin content.
Been a busy day with E-mail catch-up and EV calls so this ends my time
allotted to play here till at least end of day
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:12:54 -0800 (PST), Jim Husted
wrote:
>Hey Jerry, Neon, all
>
> The unbaked banding may look like packaging tape but is a glass strand
> banding wrap. It's strong and class H insulation and is standard fare for
> armatures. I've been contacted and asked about other banding materials but
> they are notthing I've ever delt with.
Can you give me a little more info on the material? I moonlight at my
friend's electric motor shop. They don't have anything like that in
stock. They don't do high power DC armatures, instead, they farm them
out. They also don't do any performance work. In fact my friend just
sorta stares at me with that 1000 yard look when I talk about
hotrodding a motor :-) But I do get to use the shop tools.
> Now as to banding the comm. edge, first I need someone to give permission for
> me to cut their comm. to try it. heres are a couple of problems that face
> those who would like to try this. First the banding needs to be baked (to
> harden it) at least, and really should be dipped before baking it. Now the
> groove or cut down shoulder would need to be deep enough to allow the
> undercutter blade to cut the mica slot and not saw through the banding. The
> second issue is that there is usually not enuogh comm edge (that sticks
> passed brushes) to allow this, so one would need to space the brush ring
> further up with a washer. That is if there is room to do that. I've even
> thought I could make a groove and band in the center of the comm. where on an
> ADC there is a small area where there is no brush contact, but this just
> might cuase a weak area like a hing where the comm would pry at the outer
> edge of the banding and break there.
I think I'm going to give it a try. On the GE motor I'm working with,
there is a little more room at the edge of the comm. It doesn't need
it right now but if I needed to cut the mica, I'd do it before
wrapping.
I use a Kevlar flat tape that I order from Aircraft Spruce for
wrapping the winding and commutator. I'll use some Kevlar thread for
the comm. I use a high temperature epoxy. It requires a low
temperature (~200 deg) bake but nothing like a varnish dip. I've done
this to RC car motors with success but I was interested in your
thoughts about a large comm.
I like the idea of another wrap between the brushes. I think I'll do
that too. Maybe the center of the armature as in the Warp. This
motor may have to spin as high as 10k rpm to achieve the vehicle speed
I want. I've spun it at 8K at room temperature and watched it with a
strobotach and saw no movement at all so 10k should be doable, I
think.
>I'm less than a year into facing the challenges you a!
> ll have
> faced for years, so much needs to be tested and worked on. I'm all ears for
> those wanting me to hack up their comm's (any takers??) LMAO. Even if I was
> to try this on a junker motor I have, most are smaller than the 9 inch (if I
> had those I'd sell to you guys rather than kill it) but then we would need a
> second as a base unit to see if it helped or hurt. Knowing what works is 99 %
> of the battle. In huge degrees it's a catch 22 and for everything one does it
> just pushes the weak link to another area (it will not remove it), just
> something to think about. We all know money talks and if one was to throw
> enough at a motor you could increase those weak area to a much higher
> threshold. Most of us here are more of a shoe string budget kinda people.
> Much of my focus has been in ways one can improve the limits of these motors
> at a reasonable cost, or even by yourself (which is why I'm posting what we
> are doing here). I'd like to thank all those here for the kind words. Mar!
k!
hey, this is shoestring hotrodding! Mod it until something breaks,
then back off and try something else until that breaks and keep it up
until your wallet screams for relief :-)
I sure would like to know how fast Jeff's motor got before it
exploded. Jim, can you give me the major dimensions of that armature?
Weight, overall length, diameter, length of the iron, etc. If Jeff
can tell me about how fast the motor was going and how much throttle
when he hit the clutch then maybe I can simulate it and at least get
to an order of magnitude on the speed. I could at least generate a
plot of time vs speed.
While I'm on the subject, is there any other damage to Jeff's
armature? Bulged end coils, slot boards coming out, anything like
that?
Thanks,
John
> and
> Chris actually went out and grabbed some Hi-Torque domains for me (how cool
> is that) so that I might better serve, thanks so much guys. Glad you have
> enjoyed the site I'll post pics as things move along.
kewl!
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
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> Very true Chris. And a main reason a series hybrid drive works
> well besides much less weight.
> Watch out for decreased engine life...
I've been tooling around with the car making the adapter plate, I'm happy to of
found a local who can provide the materials cheap. I saw a 2000KW generator on
sale for $180. It's rated to run at 50% load for 9 hours on 1.35 gallons of
gas.
That sounds pretty efficient.
I wounder if it's possible to modify the generator to make 60 volts, what I need
to charge my 48 volt system. I want to have a rapid on-board charging system
that's rated about 1200W, that generator would be right in line. What would
happen if I ran the generator to charge the batteries while I'm on the street
running? Sounds pretty inefficient, I'd rather convert it to a DC charger.
Chris
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Just wondering if anyone has any ideas about how to get traction control
working on a DC system? AC systems have these in built, but I would love to
get this working on a DC setup. Any ideas would be appreciated!
Cheers
Rod
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--- Begin Message ---
> On another note, Monster Garage will be doing an EV
episode. I have been contacted by them as well as several other
ampheads. It seems they may want performance. I will keep you all posted.
really?! wow - this means I might actually watch that show for the
first and only time ever!!
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