EV Digest 4916
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EVLN(AAA Offering cleancarmaps Refuel Info)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: PFC-20/30 charger as a External Portable Charger?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: AWD electric car??
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: GE Motor specs? GE control spec
by England Nathan-r25543 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Riddle me this (newbie)....
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Low rolling resistance tires
by Danny Ames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Low rolling resistance tires
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Low rolling resistance tires
by Chris Martens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Range extending
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: 8" vs 7" motor
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Range extending
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EVLN(AAA Offering cleancarmaps Refuel Info)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 8" vs 7" motor
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) EV insurance
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Range extending (Biodiesel in TDI???)
by "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nick?=" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Range extending
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Range extending (Biodiesel in TDI???)
by "Paschke, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Range Extending
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) List of drag coefficients
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) OT, RE: Range extending (Biodiesel in TDI???)
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) ACP twin motor setup
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
From: Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter, EV List News Editor
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Attention: Jenny Mack, AAA
I applaud AAA's intent to offer AFV information, but they have
hitched themselves to the wrong wagon.
CALSTART's cleancarmaps web site has been around since the 90's
and everyone in the EV community knows not to use their
listings as fact. cleancarmaps is fraught with errors and bogus
entries.
When cleancarmaps was notified of the errors, they were not
corrected. Year after year their site has not been maintained to
have their listings verified on a regular basis.
Example: bring up cleancarmaps ; select conductive EV charging;
select Santa Clara County. The very first listing has been on
their site since the 90's. It was wrong when it was entered,
and despite repeated attempts to get it removed, it is still on
thier site:
http://www.cleancarmaps.com/home/result.php?search=l&type=CND&county=Santa%20Clara
The above listing says they have 4 AVCON chargers. Because it is
on a public web site, the public will think it is a public EV
charging station (available 24 hours a day).
When in fact it is a private residence, there are no AVCON
chargers at all, and it is only available to fellow EAA members
( eaaev.org ). This is not a pubic EV charging site and should
not be publicly listed at all.
Another listing on that page is Stevens Creek Honda. Even when
Honda was leasing EV Pluses, that dealership did not offer public
use of their charger. When Honda stopped the leasing of their EV,
Stevens Creek Honda completely stopped access to their EV
charger. But the listing still persists dispite repeated
attempts to communicate to cleancarmaps to remove it:
http://www.cleancarmaps.com/home/fuelsite.php?id=0000000256
These erroneous listings go on and on. And that is only the
conductive EV section. One should also assume there are errors
all over the other parts of the un-maintained cleancarmaps site.
The EV Community knows that of all the EV charging map web sites
on the Internet, evchargernews.com is the most accurate (99%) as
it is maintained by an EV driver. One who actually drives an EV.
AAA would wise to use evchargernews.com for EV charging inquiries
until cleancarmaps has cleaned up and maintained their site.
There are nonprofit AFV organizations, like eaaev.org , where
AAA can obtain the latest EV information. Then AAA will be an
accurate AFV information source.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
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. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I tune up and down chargers All day. It's pretty easy. And really doesn't
take much time or effort.
That said... we have a couple of ways to handle the many battery flavors
that we deal with..
Our test gear has a Digi pot, Thumbwheel programming resistor. flick it up
and down...Wherever you need to be. This is about a $ 40.46 Pot.
Bourns 3680 series 652-3683s-1-103 is what we use. With a voltage regulator,
and it plugs into the "expansion port" 20 pin header on the back of the
controller PCB.
The hard part is this item is NOT small , and I don't have a lot of
spare room inside the PFC charger's cases.
But it could be ...stuffed into the case..for parts and a small installation
fee.
I will be installing this kind of control pot as the main voltage setting
control on our 75Kw charger.
We have a few square ft of display pannel... Plenty of room.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hastings" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 6:32 AM
Subject: PFC-20/30 charger as a External Portable Charger?
> It has gotten to the point that I need 3 chargers for different voltages
and I have a pretty poor selection of outlets with no room to add a circuit.
($1200 is the lowest price for a new subpanel and new outlets)
> With that in mind I was dreaming of a PFC charger instead as it may save
money in the long run. I have a russco with a boost converter which treats
me well enough but is too weak to equalize my 126volt pack with my electric
service. I have a 5amp variac for charging my 48volt mower by hand which I
guess I could use for my 72+ volt motorcycle when it gets done.
>
> On http://www.manzanitamicro.com/chargers3.htm it says "The charger output
can be adjusted for any charging voltage from 12 volts to 450 volts with the
twist of a 20 turn trimmer pot"
> I know it is more meants for when you change voltage on the vehicle it is
mounted in but could this be used to charge 3 different voltages routinely?
> 126 volts, 72 volts, 48 volts?
> It would mostly be 126 or 72 depending on what I was driving that week.
Once a week during mowing season it would be 48volts. I can really only use
one charger at a time due to only having one outlet. Has anyone used the PFC
with multiple packs? Is it an easy thing to do on an ongoing basis? Any
tricks to making it more foolproof so I don't roast my packs by turning the
dial wrong. I know powerwise I won't get all the PFC could put out but at
least I can get all I can out of the outlet with it.
>
> Thanks,
> Mark Hastings
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Umm John..
when you have the weight transfer that can do a wheelie.. you don't have any
need for the front drive.
One of GP's hang ups is when the back drive really bites hard, it lifts
the fronts enough that they smoke, and add little to the acceleration.
A good lauch on Gp is a still unfound mix of front amps and back amps,
such that Rod doesn't find the Stands or the concrete wall.
It's fun to have this much power. As Rod is finding out, it's another
matter to do something usefull with it, without
damage.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 6:20 AM
Subject: Re: AWD electric car??
> Hello to All,
>
> > It has already been done. "Gone Postal" www.suckamps.com runs all
> > wheel drive. Two Zilla Z2ks, three motors, and four twelve inch wide
> > Nitto extreme drag radials and weighs well over two tons and still
> > boils all four tires. We still have traction problems to deal with now
> > that we stopped breaking axles. I believe Shawn Lawless runs a four
> > wheel drive dragster where all four wheels are in the rear and two in
> > front.
>
> And for the other point of view.....White Zombie is rear wheel drive and
> routinely trounces 400+ hp all wheel drive Eclipses and Subes off the
> line. Their 60 ft. times are in the 1.90-1.85 area, White Zombie has
> pulled 1.59, and typically is in the low 1.6 region!
>
> The above said, so as to keep the record straight, I'm a fan of all
> wheel drive, as witnessed by the Wayland Family's all wheel drive Sube
> Legacy wagon and Jeep 4 X 4 race car tow rig. The Sube spanks the Jeep
> in bad weather traction and capability, hands down.
>
> In theory, all wheel drive 'should' rule at the strip, but in practice,
> it's still rear wheel drive that plants a car best off the line. I
> suppose that if no extra weight and drive train efficiency losses were
> added in the process, White Zombie might benefit from powering the front
> wheels if we could keep them on the ground :-)
>
> See Ya....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
>
> http://www.plasmaboyracing.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Hanson wrote:
The field fets on the club car & yamaha controls had some marginal shoot
through
(H-bridge) so I put 4 1n4148 diodes in parallel with the gate resistors
to widen the dead time but they didn't want to spend the 8c per unit.
Mark
Nathan Asked:
Where was the shoot through from? Was it from freewheel FETs or when the unit
switched from motor to generator?
M.G. wrote:
I forgot to mention this motor is a separately
excited motor.
The fields have approx ten times the windings and
use 1/10 the
current as a series wound motor.
That is even better!
Nathan Asked:
What is the amperage of the armature compared to a series motor?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Could the Motor be 'donated' by all of us on this list who are interested in
seeing this venture fly? I'd be willing to put in $50 to start things
rolling. Also, I could talk with George at NetGain about having a couple of
motor options ready and waiting.
Torquingly yours,
Richard
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Paschke, Stephen
Subject: RE: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
*The biggest expense would be the motor.* Need a big series motor for drag
racing. 1/4 mile range - use starter batteries. Why use a transmission?
Use a simple contactor controller with 2 or 3 steps.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.4/175 - Release Date: 11/18/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This has got to be a maxi Zombie. A Camaro with two 9's stright to the rear
end will do it. One string of Optima's, Exides or Hawkers will do the job.
Just a simple two motor monster. I think one of the reasons Zombie is so
fast is because it is simple. No tranny to break. Look at all the fast
EV's Most all are 2 motor setups. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 7:42 AM
Subject: RE: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
Chip Gribben wrote:
The build team won't know until the first day of the project. They
are looking for an EV expert and they plan to bring on a muscle car
expert. The others will be mechanics and fabricators.
Hmmm.
Could be problematic, stemming from the ignorant belief that cars is
cars, and an EV has to be just like an ICE to be considered "normal".
It seems to me that how this should be played will come down to budget
and weight. If this is a street custom, not a dragster, you can play up
the EV's strength by making it a holeshot monster. The problem is that
muscle cars aren't light. Sufficient torque is readily available (twin
GEs or Kostovs?), but getting it to the ground won't be cheap.
Maybe you could build some tension by having the EV crew mercilessly
beat Jesse with verbal abuse about the wimpy drivetrain parts in the
typical "muscle" car. "Jesse! I said *800* foot pounds of torque! Do
the freakin' math!" Jesse doesn't believe it, the car gets built with
standard stuff and the EV crew proceeds to snap the axle internals like
a pretzel.
Impressive to some, but not a visually satisfying a conclusion. Whoever
gets picked for this should run through some possible scenarios so
they're ready for the situation they are ultimately presented with.
Lead times should also be considered. A Warp 13 might be decided upon,
but how long does it take to get one?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't think consumers would mind if the results were more
accurate. All they have to do is redesign the window stickers so
consumers can see the difference. After all, the auto industry
didn't collapse when they went from BHP to SAE ratings, and consumers
were better off.
It's the auto industry who wants to keep the status quo. Testing at
higher speeds reduces mileage, which reduces the manufacturers' CAFE
numbers. They have a vested interest in keeping the EPA tests right
where they are, i.e. at 55 mph instead of 65 or 70 mph. (And if the
test is even more unrealistic for hybrids, so much the better for
manufacturers.)
In the meantime, drivers (and the environment) lose out. Many cars
can meet their current CAFE numbers at a higher speed by tuning the
engine powerband and/or gearing, but today's drivers get the short
end because cars are tuned to get their best mileage at EPA test
speeds, not at speeds we actually drive.
Tim
On Nov 14, 2005, at 9:52 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: November 14, 2005 5:03:05 PM PST
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Riddle me this (newbie)....
I imagine when the EPA wants to modify its testing criteria, it
ends up confusing a lot of people. I.E. your 2005 hybrid gets a
rated 70 mpg and the new improved 2006 model with 10% better
economy gets rated 60 mpg, but only because the changed the testing
method, a lot of people will be dismayed. They're not going to go
back and rerate all the old vehicles ever made so any attempt to
chart mpg of vehicles sold over different years would be virtually
meaningless due to these flaws. I bet some congressmen would
assume the industry is backpedalling and raise a stink about it.
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FYI. found this link on the Solectria_EV group.
Nice report on the greenest tires out their.
Danny Ames
http://www.greenseal.org/recommendations/CGR_tire_rollingresistance.pdf
Below is from part of the pdf
BRAND MODEL SIZE LRR AVERAGE PRICE COMPOSITE BUYAGAIN WEAR SCORE
Bridge tone B381 185/70R14 0.0062 $62 .00 8.00 5.96 6.98
Nokian NRT2185/70R14 0.0085 $67.00 8.00 5.72 6.86
Sumitomo HTR 200 185/70R14 0.0092 $36.00 8.15 8.30 7.05 7.83
Dunlop Graspic DS-1 185/70R14 0.0092$46.00 7.50 7.90 6.60 7.33
Dunlop SP40 A/S 185/70R14 0.0103 $41.00 8.00 7.18 7.59
Bridge tone Blizzak WS-50 185/70R14 0.0103 $68.00 7.91 8.70 6.04 7.55
Goodyear VIVA 2185/70R14 0.0104 $47.96 7.00 6.52 6.80
Continental ContiTouring Contact CH95 205/55R16 0.0083 $64.00 7.46 6.10
7.29 6.95
Michelin Pilot Alpine 205/55R16 0.0090 $125.00 7.56 8.60 8.00 8.05
Michelin EnergyMXV4 Plus 205/55R16 0.0090 $118.00 7.64 6.00 6.87 6.84
Dunlop SP Winter Sport M22 05/55R16 0.0102$98.00 8.55 7.80 8.17
Michelin Arctic AlpineXL 235/75R15 0.0081 $79.00 8.10 8.50 7.10 7.90
Dunlop Axiom Plus WS 235/75R15 0.0088 $43.00 8.00 5.88 6.94
BF Goodrich Long Trail T/A 245/75R16 0.0092 $76.00 7.94 6.20 7.11 7.08
Michelin XPS Rib LT245/75R16 0.0101 $167.90 6.70 8.10 8.00 7.60
Michelin LTX M/S 245/75R16 0.0103 $139.00 7.97 8.30 7.37 7.88
Bridge tone Dueler A/T D693 245/75R16 0.0103 $104.00 8.00 7.20 7.60
Christopher Tromley wrote:
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
So if heavy sidewalls are out looks like LT's are out. They are
heavily
built. I could get Hercules tires 14" LT's. The only small truck LT
made(85psi) or a set of Potenza's. There are a few others but I am
still
trolling for the right tire. I'd like to see someone's data to
support my
tire choice. 14inch 185's 25.5 inch diameter. I just looked at the
Hercules site and it seems they dropped their 14 inch LT line.
Lawrence
Rhodes.......Still looking..........
Hi Lawrence,
We're oversimplifying here. The goal (or one of them anyway) is to
reduce the drag caused by the sidewalls flexing. Stiff sidewalls flex
less, so that's a viable approach. (This is proven by the fact that the
vehicle with probably the lowest rolling resistance is a train - cast
iron wheels on rails flex almost not at all.) Very flexible sidewalls
might flex more, but offer very little resistance when they do - another
viable approach.
Tires are one subject where almost anything you say can be "proven"
right or wrong by listing individual examples. You simply can't make
blanket statements and expect them to be valid. There are too many
overlapping factors affecting the same characteristics.
The only solution is to measure the rolling resistance and report it.
The tire companies have this information, but certainly aren't going to
publish it. Consumer Reports supposedly measures it, but they only
offer those idiotic dots meaning poor/fair/average/good/excellent. No
numbers, no indication of the spread from poor to excellent, not even a
test method. Might someone contact their engineers to get more details?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I keep them at 45 psi front and 42 psi rear. I have done this since the
car was new. The max pressure is 50 psi according to the side wall.
Paul "neon" G.
I wonder what the recommended pressure is? Did you notice bad handling in
the rain or any other negative issues like road noise? LR......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a low budget tire that is recommended by some studies (sorry I lost the
link):
Sumitomo HTR 200
Apparently, "high performance" SUMMER times have the least resistance as a
category.
Chris
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I keep them at 45 psi front and 42 psi rear. I have done this since the
> > car was new. The max pressure is 50 psi according to the side wall.
> >
> > Paul "neon" G.
>
> I wonder what the recommended pressure is? Did you notice bad handling in
> the rain or any other negative issues like road noise? LR......
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Nov 18, 2005, at 1:20 AM, David Roden wrote:
Or you might do as some other Deep Green folks
I know do, get an old Rabbit diesel and convert it to run on vegetable
oil
as your long distance vehicle.
No need to get an "old" diesel VW - VW sells them new that will run
just fine on biodiesel (including a New Beetle model). Look for models
with "TDI" in the name.
Plus there are vehicles like the Jeep Liberty diesel, and pickup trucks
and SUVs, although now we've stopped worrying about efficient
transportation. Still, some people need big vehicles. Here's a list
of diesel vehicles for sale in the US.
<http://www.dieselforum.org/where-is-diesel/cars-trucks-suvs/diesels-
for-sale-in-the-us/>
Biodiesel can be purchased (including my relatively small town of Bend,
OR), or made at home out of waste vegetable oil. I have a friend here
in town who's doing just that. He built his own processing system and
can produce about five gallons per week, which is way more than he
needs.
<http://www.planetbiodiesel.com/making.asp>
I don't want to reignite a flame war about the pros and cons of burning
WVO. Been there, done that, got the archives. I'm just noting that if
you want a range extender for an EV, you might want to consider a
separate diesel vehicle. It's definitely on *my* list of options.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Doug Weathers
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
Bend, Oregon, USA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, I checked Uve's calculator for an arbitrary fixed speed 72V Dinglframus
Mobile and came up with:
7" L9104003 8" 203-06-4001
9" FB1 4001
$810 $1200
$1400
8k rpm's max 8k rpm's max
7k rpm's max
44MPH 46MPH
52MPH
12hp 16hp
18hp
85lbs 107lbs
143lbs
So apparently, they all have the same number of poles and the larger motor
actually spins faster probably due to more torque as well but speed limits
sooner. A guy who drove a Cushman with a 7" for 10 years said it would do
39mph on the flat with a 7" motor, but UVE's gives a relative difference
showing the trend of larger is more rpm's at a given ratio, voltage & load. I
could use 50% field weakening for a 20% speed increase on the 7" though, but
may not work if the torque drops substantially.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Hanson
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 9:02 AM
Subject: 8" vs 7" motor
Hi,
I was curious on a direct drive 1400lb 72V vehicle whether it would be better
for a 7" or 8" motor. The Cushman ZEV originally came with a GE 6.7" motor so
I was wondering whether to stay with that (an Advance DC 6.7" series motor) or
go with an 8" for better torque. There are two 6.7" one rated at 10hp and the
other at 13hp which I assume is better. Also I think a 6.7" motor would spin
faster without problems than an 8" 16hp, BUT the 8" would have better initial
torque in startoff but would it be OK at the high end 4k-5k rpms?
Thanks, Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 18 Nov 2005 at 11:23, Doug Weathers wrote:
> No need to get an "old" diesel VW - VW sells them new that will run
> just fine on biodiesel (including a New Beetle model). Look for models with
> "TDI" in the name.
Sorry, I should have explained the reason for that suggestion. VW will void
the warranty if they're run on US soy bio. They only honor it if you use
European (rapeseed) biodiesel. This is straight from VW. That's why I
recommend running an old one that's out of warranty, but it's up to you.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter, EV List News Editor
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Attention: Jenny Mack, AAA
I applaud AAA's intent to offer AFV information, but they have
hitched themselves to the wrong wagon.
CALSTART's cleancarmaps web site has been around since the 90's
and everyone in the EV community knows not to use their
listings as fact. cleancarmaps is fraught with errors and bogus
entries.
When cleancarmaps was notified of the errors, they were not
corrected. Year after year their site has not been maintained to
have their listings verified on a regular basis.
Example: bring up cleancarmaps ; select conductive EV charging;
select Santa Clara County. The very first listing has been on
their site since the 90's. It was wrong when it was entered,
and despite repeated attempts to get it removed, it is still on
thier site:
http://www.cleancarmaps.com/home/result.php?search=l&type=CND&county=Santa%20Clara
The above listing says they have 4 AVCON chargers. Because it is
on a public web site, the public will think it is a public EV
charging station (available 24 hours a day).
When in fact it is a private residence, there are no AVCON
chargers at all, and it is only available to fellow EAA members
( eaaev.org ). This is not a pubic EV charging site and should
not be publicly listed.
Another listing on that page is Stevens Creek Honda. Even when
Honda was leasing EV Pluses, that dealership did not offer public
use of their charger. When Honda stopped the leasing of their EV,
Stevens Creek Honda completely stopped access to their EV
charger. But the listing still persists dispite repeated
attempts to communicate to cleancarmaps to remove it:
http://www.cleancarmaps.com/home/fuelsite.php?id=0000000256
These erroneous listings go on and on. And that is only the
conductive EV section. One should also assume there are errors
all over the other parts of the un-maintained cleancarmaps
web site.
The EV Community knows that of all the EV charging map web sites
on the Internet, evchargernews.com is the most accurate (99%) as
it is maintained by an EV driver, one who actually drives an EV.
AAA would be wise to use evchargernews.com for EV charging
inquiries until cleancarmaps has cleaned up and maintained their
site.
There are nonprofit AFV organizations, like eaaev.org , where
AAA can obtain the latest EV information. Then AAA will be an
accurate AFV information source.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But then I look at the motor curves and test data and it appears the opposite,
at same 190 amps, 20hp the 9" is 3900 RPM's, the 8" is 4800 RPM's and the 7" is
5200RPM's. It seams like either UVE's is wrong or the test data is wrong. OK
I'm confused.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Hanson
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: 8" vs 7" motor
Hi, I checked Uve's calculator for an arbitrary fixed speed 72V Dinglframus
Mobile and came up with:
7" L9104003 8" 203-06-4001
9" FB1 4001
$810 $1200
$1400
8k rpm's max 8k rpm's max
7k rpm's max
44MPH 46MPH
52MPH
12hp 16hp
18hp
85lbs 107lbs
143lbs
So apparently, they all have the same number of poles and the larger motor
actually spins faster probably due to more torque as well but speed limits
sooner. A guy who drove a Cushman with a 7" for 10 years said it would do
39mph on the flat with a 7" motor, but UVE's gives a relative difference
showing the trend of larger is more rpm's at a given ratio, voltage & load. I
could use 50% field weakening for a 20% speed increase on the 7" though, but
may not work if the torque drops substantially.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Hanson
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 9:02 AM
Subject: 8" vs 7" motor
Hi,
I was curious on a direct drive 1400lb 72V vehicle whether it would be
better for a 7" or 8" motor. The Cushman ZEV originally came with a GE 6.7"
motor so I was wondering whether to stay with that (an Advance DC 6.7" series
motor) or go with an 8" for better torque. There are two 6.7" one rated at
10hp and the other at 13hp which I assume is better. Also I think a 6.7" motor
would spin faster without problems than an 8" 16hp, BUT the 8" would have
better initial torque in startoff but would it be OK at the high end 4k-5k
rpms?
Thanks, Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know this goes around semi-regularly, and I know that the outcome
depends a lot on who happens to answer the phone, but...
Has anyone has success insuring an EV specfically with either Geiko or
with Travelers? Anyone in NY state? (Both companies have said they can't
handle a Solectria Force...)
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey, I use Biodiesel in my old Peugeot, but the local business that makes it
told me that using Biodiesel in a new VW TDI does NOT void the warranty. He
seems to have put a lot of research into it (he does sell the stuff, after all)
so is he grossly misinformed, or are there more subtleties to the Biodiesel
issue than just "yes it voids the warranty" or "no it doesn't"???
Nick
> -------Original Message-------
> From: David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Range extending
> Sent: 18 Nov '05 19:50
>
> On 18 Nov 2005 at 11:23, Doug Weathers wrote:
>
> > No need to get an "old" diesel VW - VW sells them new that will run
> > just fine on biodiesel (including a New Beetle model). Look for
> models with
> > "TDI" in the name.
>
> Sorry, I should have explained the reason for that suggestion. VW will void
> the warranty if they're run on US soy bio. They only honor it if you use
> European (rapeseed) biodiesel. This is straight from VW. That's why I
> recommend running an old one that's out of warranty, but it's up to you.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to the "from" address above may not reach me. To
> send me a private message, please use evdl at drmm period net.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Chris Martens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Well, I'm very curious what the emissions would be like. If I was to go
that
route, I intended to hook the exhaust through the original system. I'd
move the
cat up much closer to keep it hot, and it would take care of any unburnt
fuel.
If you do that you will likely destroy the CC in short order. I'm assuming
that your generator engine will not have been designed for use with a CC,
and will not have the necessary sensors ( oxygen sensor, in particular) so
that it's computer can continually adjust the mixture to reduce unburned
hydrocarbons to the absolute minimum. That is what the CC requires to
survive. Is the engine even computer controlled?
All that complexity and sophistication ( as well as being designed from the
ground up for minimum emissions) is necessary in a modern ICE car engine,
partly to keep from murdering the CC.
No matter what you do with a cheap, low-tech generator engine, you will
produce MANY times the polluting emmisions of a modern ICE car ( on a
per/mile basis).
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I heard from the VW dealership that it does NOT void the warranty. My wife is
looking at buying a 2006 Jetta TDI.
> Stephen Paschke
> Senior Consultant
> Keane, Inc.
> Office 303-607-2993
> Cell 303-204-9280
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 2:12 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Range extending (Biodiesel in TDI???)
Hey, I use Biodiesel in my old Peugeot, but the local business that makes it
told me that using Biodiesel in a new VW TDI does NOT void the warranty. He
seems to have put a lot of research into it (he does sell the stuff, after all)
so is he grossly misinformed, or are there more subtleties to the Biodiesel
issue than just "yes it voids the warranty" or "no it doesn't"???
Nick
> -------Original Message-------
> From: David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Range extending
> Sent: 18 Nov '05 19:50
>
> On 18 Nov 2005 at 11:23, Doug Weathers wrote:
>
> > No need to get an "old" diesel VW - VW sells them new that will run
> > just fine on biodiesel (including a New Beetle model). Look for
> models with
> > "TDI" in the name.
>
> Sorry, I should have explained the reason for that suggestion. VW will void
> the warranty if they're run on US soy bio. They only honor it if you use
> European (rapeseed) biodiesel. This is straight from VW. That's why I
> recommend running an old one that's out of warranty, but it's up to you.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to the "from" address above may not reach me. To
> send me a private message, please use evdl at drmm period net.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know a guy who makes a pretty decent twin motor set-up, ; )
Dont think I could donate a pair though. At least not this year ; (
Jim
Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
This has got to be a maxi Zombie. A Camaro with two 9's stright to the rear
end will do it. One string of Optima's, Exides or Hawkers will do the job.
Just a simple two motor monster. I think one of the reasons Zombie is so
fast is because it is simple. No tranny to break. Look at all the fast
EV's Most all are 2 motor setups. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Tromley"
To:
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 7:42 AM
Subject: RE: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
> Chip Gribben wrote:
>
>> The build team won't know until the first day of the project. They
>> are looking for an EV expert and they plan to bring on a muscle car
>> expert. The others will be mechanics and fabricators.
>
> Hmmm.
>
> Could be problematic, stemming from the ignorant belief that cars is
> cars, and an EV has to be just like an ICE to be considered "normal".
>
> It seems to me that how this should be played will come down to budget
> and weight. If this is a street custom, not a dragster, you can play up
> the EV's strength by making it a holeshot monster. The problem is that
> muscle cars aren't light. Sufficient torque is readily available (twin
> GEs or Kostovs?), but getting it to the ground won't be cheap.
>
> Maybe you could build some tension by having the EV crew mercilessly
> beat Jesse with verbal abuse about the wimpy drivetrain parts in the
> typical "muscle" car. "Jesse! I said *800* foot pounds of torque! Do
> the freakin' math!" Jesse doesn't believe it, the car gets built with
> standard stuff and the EV crew proceeds to snap the axle internals like
> a pretzel.
>
> Impressive to some, but not a visually satisfying a conclusion. Whoever
> gets picked for this should run through some possible scenarios so
> they're ready for the situation they are ultimately presented with.
> Lead times should also be considered. A Warp 13 might be decided upon,
> but how long does it take to get one?
>
> Chris
>
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, just in case anyone is interested:
I got all the numbers together and ran it through Uve's calculator.
Given ALL the factors (Cd, frontal area, weight, tires, gear ratios,
etc), it states a needed 30 ft-lbs of torque into the tranny at 2800 RPM
with a 2% incline at 50MPH. Going with a 84v pack, that gives a battery
draw of 212A (ouch!).
Adding a stock Robin EX27 with a torque output of 13.74 ft-lbs @ 2700RPM
running at the recommended continuous 80% max output would yield an
electric motor demand of around 20ft-lbs. The calculator reports a
battery draw of about 130A at that torque/rpm level, and using 14 T125's
would net a potential highway cruise range of just over 30 miles instead
of 22.
Not cool :(
Well, switch that to a Robin EH34. That leaves me with a electric motor
demand at 16ft-lbs (the half-way mark) on the flats. That lowers the
draw to 100A and a range of 35 miles.
Not quite...
Ok, now all the way to a Robin EH41 (actually much easier to get a hold
of and quite inexpensive). The numbers come in at a 13ft-lbs (about 60%)
electric demand, which results in a 81Amp battery draw. Now it's at
46miles.
That sounds like a good starting point to me: Just under 50 miles range
at 50MPH with less then 1000lbs of batteries, a two-three year battery
life, 1.2 gallons an hour when cruising, 75dB ICE engine noise (72dB is
the sound level a typical newer car engine generates at 3000RPM) with
CARB tier II compliance and plenty of room to upgrade for more power and
range (volts). And that's much quieter and as clean as the engine that
would've gone in it ;)
I've started a CAD workup using the Robin EH41 + ADC 203-06-4001 + AXE
7245. This way I can try different clutch configurations as I get more
info on those. If I can fit it in this engine bay (50" front track), it
should fit in almost anyone's.
I can't wait to see your setup when it's about done Chris. Nice blog Jerry!
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a set of aero tables that includes model and year info, as wheel
as HP used at speed by Cd > 100MPH curves...
http://www.mayfco.com/tbls.htm
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Stephen and All,
Next yr when they remove the sulfur from US diesel by law,
they will put in 2% biodiesel to replace the lube for fuel pumps, injectors
that the sulpur had done before so all diesel will be using part biodiesel.
I own a Rabbit diesel I'm starting on blended waste veg oil,
gasoline as biodiesel is not available here yet.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
"Paschke, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I heard from the VW dealership that it does NOT void the warranty. My wife is
looking at buying a 2006 Jetta TDI.
> Stephen Paschke
> Senior Consultant
> Keane, Inc.
> Office 303-607-2993
> Cell 303-204-9280
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 2:12 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Range extending (Biodiesel in TDI???)
Hey, I use Biodiesel in my old Peugeot, but the local business that makes it
told me that using Biodiesel in a new VW TDI does NOT void the warranty. He
seems to have put a lot of research into it (he does sell the stuff, after all)
so is he grossly misinformed, or are there more subtleties to the Biodiesel
issue than just "yes it voids the warranty" or "no it doesn't"???
Nick
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks talk about throwing cubic dollars at EV drag racing.
After going thru the ACP website again after not seeing it for a long time,
I threw together some numbers.
The drives I am talking about are the _tweaked_ versions, able to output
220hp each (according to ACP).
Here are some weight comparisons-
Pack HABs 12V 29ah ea. @ 360v- 720
2 motors 220
2 control units 60
__________________________________
Total weight 1000 lbs
440 hp
------------------------------------------------------
Pack HGs 12V 16ah ea. @ 360V- 405
2 motors 220
2 control units 60
____________________________________
Total weight 685 lbs
440 hp
------------------------------------------------------
Pack HGs 12V 13ah ea. @ 360V- 324
2 motors 220
2 control units 60
____________________________________
Total weight 604 lbs!
440 hp - 1/4 mile range :^D
---------------------------------------------------------
Hawker Genesis 12V 13ah 10.8 lbs ea
Hawker Genesis 12V 16ah 13.5 lbs ea
Hawker AeroBatteries 12V 29ah 24 lbs ea
Seems like a pretty good power to weight ratio to me.
Also, each drive provides 20kw of charging capacity
The [reductive] 20kw chargers add _3 lbs_ to the weight of each drive.
Check out the power and efficiency curves-
http://acpropulsion.com/Products/AC150_efficiency.gif
.
Roy LeMeur
Olympia WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
