EV Digest 4918
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV production! Who's interested in figuring out how to make $ at this!
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Advice on motor brushes
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Riddle me this (newbie)....Thanks for the replies
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Monster garage
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: The new Sting-Ray Electric
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: The new Sting-Ray Electric
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV production! Who's interested in figuring out how to make $ at this!
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Battery Charging
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: ACP twin motor setup
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: EV production! Who's interested in figuring out how to make $ at this!
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Smart Car crash test video
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Smart Car crash test video
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: ACP twin motor setup
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Hercules LT vs Bridgestone B381 on an Electavan.
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Range Extending
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) OT, Re: Range Extending
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: The new Sting-Ray Electric
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV production! Who's interested in figuring out how to make $ at this!
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Smart Car crash test video
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: EV production! Who's interested in figuring out how to make $ at this!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Smart Car crash test video
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bruce,
This has been kicked around on the list more times
than you can imagine. During '97-04, the traffic on
the list came to the conclusion that after one paid
for the EV electronics (8K), and the "glider" (shell
of a car with a blown engine, 3K), and some labor,
(3-4K) that the cars are out of the reach of people
without a big heart for doing "the right thing". The
uptick in oil prices changed all of that for four
months, and now we're back in the doldrums for awhile,
waiting for prices to tick up. Evidence the
discussion about a RAV-4EV selling for $53K, and
personally, I received a call regarding my Civic,
which isn't even for sale.
Peripheral issues:
-all that needs "fabricating" on an EV are the battery
racks, and the adapter plate. Because each model has
a different trunk and a different body style, you
either need to have to be willing to build on a
variety of primarily subcompact, manual transmission
vehicles, or stick to just one model.
-how many people can insure a 3rd party conversion?
Feel free to check out Wikipedia, (electric vehicles),
or my webpage (below). And welcome to the list!
--- bruce bogusz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Is it possible to start and run a small EV
> production line and at least eck out a small profit
> at it?
>
> I just inherited a 2 plant metal fabricating
> business that we are in the process of selling off
> or closing down. It however struck me that maybe I
> should use one plant to produce a low-cost EV.
> Anyone have any interest or thoughts on this?
>
> Plant that would be used is located in Clarksville
> Iowa, just northwest of Cedar Falls/Waterloo. Not
> looking for any investment from potential partners,
> but would need one or more individuals knowledgeable
> in EV's. I just bought my first electric car and am
> learning about them on the fly so to speak.
>
> Please respond either in this public list or you
> may private email me.
>
> Think about it. Am in the process of developing a
> rough business plan and would like to explore any
> ideas that are feasible.
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in
> one click.
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey John
STOP IMMEDIATELY!
If you do not, you will develop grooves where those leads contact the comm.,
and fast.
It does kind of suck that you loose that amount but you are also losing
spring tension when the brush is that low to. At 1/2 X 1 it sounds like you
are using a Prestolite MGP12A brush. They have a slant attack on the comm,
sound right?? Contact me and I can get a set out Monday if you would like.
Also, a brush needs to be bonded to the shunt lead. No matter whether it's
rivited or glued it needs X amount left on the brush for that connection, along
with the fact that the spring tension is all but lost by then anyway.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
John Luck Home <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Could I ask the collective wisdom of the EV list about carbon brushes.
In my EV I have a 4 pole DC motor that has two 1'' x 1/2'' brushes per pole.
These brushes have the connecting wire embedded in them for about the first
half an inch of their total 1.25 inch length when new.
Is it O.K to run the brushes when the ends of the copper are visible at the
end of the brush that is in contact with the comm ?. Or should I cease use
immediately until I can get replacements.
Otherwise it seems a bit rough that a brush is only useable for about 2/3rds
of its length.
John
www.bedfordev.flyer.co.uk
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stan,
Do what I am going to do. I have two 1990 Nissan 240SXs. Both cars
are identical. My commute is 17 miles each way. I plan to use my gas 240
to do the 17 mile commute. The electric 240 will do EVERYTHING else. The
electric will do all my in town driving which it will perform well. I
assume that my gas car, my motorcycle, and the EV will make for a well
rounded cheap driving experience. Also all 3 vehicles will be quite fun to
drive in their perspective uses. All will have great acceleration and be
rather efficient. My bike gets 36 mpg, the gas 240 gets 25, and the
electric 240 will get between 30 and 40 miles per charge. Trying to get an
EV to directly match a gas in every use just won't work. Compromise and use
an EV in a specific area of your driving needs and reap the benefits it can
offer. Insurance on an extra car won't be that bad either. My insurance
went up I think $12 a month for a second car and I will assume it will go up
about the same for a 3rd.
Jody
-----Original Message-----
From: Stan Helton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 8:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Riddle me this (newbie)....Thanks for the replies
Thanks to all who replied to my post...
A little more info about my specific scenario... My daily commute is 20
miles each way. I have no place to plug in at work. Other than that, an EV
would be suitable for all my around town needs. I'd only need the ICE for
trips to the in-laws, etc.
I'm thinking about converting my 1998 Honda Civic hatchback. I'm not sure
it can be done and fit my commuter needs. But, best case scenario I can
somehow fit 144v-worth of batteries to ensure I can get back and forth to
work (big hill too). I have gathered that 6v batteries provide more range
than the equivalent in 12v, true? Anyway, I was looking around online and
noticing that 6v AGM batteries at some places were more than $200 a piece.
So, anyway $5000 was another worst-case estimate. I really have no solid
idea how long batteries last, so...
As far as maintainence on my current vehicle, I've had it since '98 and it's
got 103,000 miles on it. Had it tuned twice, maybe? Maybe only once.
Other than that oil change is $30 probably every 3 months. Never had
anything else done. Oh yeah, new tires. I'll spend probably $60/mo on gas.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a dumb question, Why keep the tranny or rear end if they are that weak?
In the space of the gas tank floor of a trunk and rear end, couldn't we
fit a gonepostal style rear setup? The alum box would be a little
longer reaching down to where the diffy was and provide mounting for
lower control arms, the rest of the setup wuold then be like a bar link
setup.
Would the motors provide a differential action in both series and
parallel modes?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I bought one in good condition & am chopping it up to fit a nice little pump
motor. I paid 100 bucks for the glider. LR.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: The new Sting-Ray Electric
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
http://www.schwinnstingray.com/pr_electric_sting-ray_launch.html
~$400 if anyone wants one..
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3599968
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not to put a damper on anyones ideas here but this is
a little kids bike. 8-12 year olds. It is suppose to
be a motorcyle replica similar to the pedal cars. It
will not hold a 150 lbs plus person without bending
the frame.
Schwinns are usually heavy and over built. However this bike isn't for
kids. The Izip is ridded by adults. The Schwinn is very simular. It has a
different back fender. I had to chop it a bit to fiit in a good size motor.
The Aluminium is stout and I easily rode it home. The Big Boa tire is the
size of many motorcycle tires and holds 36psi. This bike is definitely over
built. I'll be riding it around at 20 to 30 mph. I did take the precaution
of installing disc brakes. I'll post pictures when I'm done. Lawrence
Rhodes......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bob, Bruce and All,
Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Bruce,
This has been kicked around on the list more times
than you can imagine. During '97-04, the traffic on
the list came to the conclusion that after one paid
for the EV electronics (8K), and the "glider" (shell
of a car with a blown engine, 3K), and some labor,
(3-4K) that the cars are out of the reach of people
without a big heart for doing "the right thing". The
uptick in oil prices changed all of that for four
months, and now we're back in the doldrums for awhile,
waiting for prices to tick up.
Bob is correct here as doing conversions is not the way to go
because of costs and bad performance as an EV due to way to many compromises,
extra weight amoung other reasons.
Evidence the
discussion about a RAV-4EV selling for $53K, and
personally, I received a call regarding my Civic,
which isn't even for sale.
Yet this clearly proves there is a rather good market for EV's. Used
EV prices are going up fast and if a good one, sold rather quickly.
The best way by far is to make new EV's designed, built as EV's in
their own catagory. If you convert, it will always be compared to the price of
the used donor car.
My suggestion is going with a good kit car like the Fiberfab Valkrie
built near you, or the Ford Cobra Coupe, both of which are lightweight, plenty
of room for batts, looks great and good aero. And done correctly to show car
standards and with a tire smoking high powered EV drive, they would easily
bring a $40-50k price as your ICE competition would be even more expensive.
These could be made for about $20k easily so very good profit. Make a few body
mods for lower aero drag so you have a unique one so you can call it your own
brand. Your competition will be Vipers to the new
Ford GT-40, ect. It can be built to beat them on the drag strip too.
Another would be pop a fiberglass mold from most any car that with
cosmetic mods, could be your own but still use things like doors, windshields,
suspension, ect. Redesigned in composites, it can be much lighter, easier to
build, thus much more suitable to EV use. I like doing the body/chassis in one
composite unit to save weight, parts, labor, thus cost and increase crash
protection.
Or go my route, design, build one from scratch making it very eff,
fast, long range and reasonably priced. Luckily for me I have decades of boat
design, production that lets me do this at a low price.
By designing from scratch, you can optimise it for much less weight,
thus much lower cost for both body/chassis materials, EV drive, Battery and can
cut the hrs needed to build it greatly. This allows building a good 2seat, 80
mph, 100 mile range EV sportswagon that can be sold for $13k at a good profit.
As it has 3wheels with one in the rear, it's considered a MC thus little fed
regs you have to deal with in a 4 wheeler.
Peripheral issues:
-all that needs "fabricating" on an EV are the battery
racks, and the adapter plate. Because each model has
a different trunk and a different body style, you
either need to have to be willing to build on a
variety of primarily subcompact, manual transmission
vehicles, or stick to just one model.
-how many people can insure a 3rd party conversion?
Feel free to check out Wikipedia, (electric vehicles),
You'll find me there under
http://www.evproduction.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page , check under
Freedom EV for the mock up pics and lastest progress for pics of the production
molds. I'm currently building the first body/chassis.
If I can help you let me know, there is plenty of room for eveyone !!
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
or my webpage (below). And welcome to the list!
--- bruce bogusz wrote:
> Is it possible to start and run a small EV
> production line and at least eck out a small profit
> at it?
>
> I just inherited a 2 plant metal fabricating
> business that we are in the process of selling off
> or closing down. It however struck me that maybe I
> should use one plant to produce a low-cost EV.
> Anyone have any interest or thoughts on this?
>
> Plant that would be used is located in Clarksville
> Iowa, just northwest of Cedar Falls/Waterloo. Not
> looking for any investment from potential partners,
> but would need one or more individuals knowledgeable
> in EV's. I just bought my first electric car and am
> learning about them on the fly so to speak.
>
> Please respond either in this public list or you
> may private email me.
>
> Think about it. Am in the process of developing a
> rough business plan and would like to explore any
> ideas that are feasible.
>
> Bruce
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Install a vent fan in the upper part of the garage ceiling that is wired to
start when the car is charging to vent the gas to the outside. To be safe
it would have to be a spark friendly unit - perhaps a blower fan from a
boat. You could use a 12V wall wart to power the fan and a 12V relay to
actuate it from a switch either mounted on the wall or some kind of
automatic switch designed to operate when the charger was on. I believe
www.smarthome.com has an automatic switch that detects current and switches
on another circuit.
-----Original Message-----
From: Danny Miller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 2:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Battery Charging
The problem would be opposite. Propane, gasoline vapor, etc are all
heavier than air but the gas emitted from lead acid batteries would be
hydrogen, which is lighter than air and will thus have a tendency to
rise and collect near the ceiling. Thus ignition sources low to the
ground would not be of special concern but perhaps ignition sources in
the ceiling might be. Perhaps a heater or bug zapper?
Realistically I suspect hydrogen would mix readily with the air on the
way up (since it wants to traverse a greater distance) and result in a
mixture far too lean to ignite. But it's hard to predict just what can
happen, especially when the battery type, charging scheme, and possible
failure modes of the charger are not known.
Danny
Roland Wiench wrote:
>It could be as dangerous as a gas car park in a garage that may be venting
gas fuels. Some building codes do not allow have a flame producing device
in a garage that is mounted low. Some natural gas units with outside air
feed can be mounted high at 8 foot off the floor.
>
>Roland
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a clarification.
You can't really send your warp to the manufactureer to be fixed if
you are in california. Althought they have a plant out here, they will
only fix them back east.
Shipping has changed from $100 (a year and a half ago) to $350 each
way. Someone said just trash my new motor and buy another one, it
wasn't worth the shipping both ways. The good news is there are options.
take the motor apart and ship UPS, they allow 150Lbs/package now. ship
it ground, from a buisness address that has regular pickups and it costs
1/2 as much as shipping as an individual from a home address. And most
importantly, Jim of hi torque electic is on this coast. It only cost me
$65 to ship my motor in 2 boxes to Jim; (of course it had lost a little
weight :-) but 1 box at 90 and one at 75 lbs)
partial comparison of systems Victor please jump in with MES and Seimans.
AC
DC
ACP box 176 Lbs 1604 in^3 zilla 1k
~2650 21 291 in^3
ACP motor 110 Lbs PFC 50
~3000 42 lbs 1330 in^3
100amp
dc-dc ~449 8 lbs 227 in^3
25,000 Contactors
~1000
warp 9
~1650 165 Lbs
$25,000 286 Lbs 1604 in^3 electronics
$8749 236 lbs 1848 in^3
NEITHER system includes transmission
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> This has got to be a maxi Zombie. A Camaro with two 9's
> stright to the rear end will do it.
Maybe.
So which would be more interesting from a Jesse James 'make it wild' half
hour TV show perspective----twin 9's, series connected to the rear diff, or
a Dave Cloud 8-ETEK chain-driven special?
Recall that even with cheap used batteries, no controller and only 96v,
Cloud delivered something like low 14's and 95mph (?) at Woodburn with this
arrangement in a body-mod'd Geo. Many on this list scoffed at the idea. It
was a sight to see. Dave proved many of you wrong.
Mechanically it was amazing.
What would viewers rather watch?
This September there was a Monster Garage episode where a team was slated to
build a steamboat out of a 1950's era Chris Craft runabout. One of our more
noted NW steamboaters (and machinist) joined the team.
The show wasn't about performance, but more about crafting something kind of
amazing and out of the ordinary---a frickin' steamboat---and of course, it
had to have a killer paint job. In the end, there was a race, late
September in the Sacramento Delta at the annual steamboat meet there.
Jesse's monster steamboat took 2nd place in the race. It looked like he had
a lot of fun on that project despite the low HP and slow speeds.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry Dycus is doing this with the Freedom EV and will be working on the
Solectria Sunrise vehicle at a later date. He has a yahoo list called
EVProduction (I think).
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of bruce bogusz
Sent: November 19, 2005 4:48 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EV production! Who's interested in figuring out how to make $ at
this!
Is it possible to start and run a small EV production line and at least eck
out a small profit at it?
I just inherited a 2 plant metal fabricating business that we are in the
process of selling off or closing down. It however struck me that maybe I
should use one plant to produce a low-cost EV. Anyone have any interest or
thoughts on this?
Plant that would be used is located in Clarksville Iowa, just northwest
of Cedar Falls/Waterloo. Not looking for any investment from potential
partners, but would need one or more individuals knowledgeable in EV's. I
just bought my first electric car and am learning about them on the fly so
to speak.
Please respond either in this public list or you may private email me.
Think about it. Am in the process of developing a rough business plan and
would like to explore any ideas that are feasible.
Bruce
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
> safety cage is definitely doing the best job it could do.
Substantial crash. Situation and reality is though: even with the
body strapped in place and even if the person had a helmet on and it
was restrained to the seat as to not move forward; the brain can't be
restrained.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What an awesome crash. I'm working on two smart fourtwo conversions right
now and it makes me feel good to see there is some hope of survival.
Smart in KY
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 11:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Smart Car crash test video
NSFW due to ads on the page. For those who don't get the lingo, that's
Not Safe For Work.
The little silly-looking econo Smart Car smashes directly into a
concrete barrier at 70 mph and the cabin is still completely intact. Of
course the decelleration even into an airbag is quite dangerous, but the
safety cage is definitely doing the best job it could do.
http://www.muchosucko.com/viewlink10619.html
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why wouldn't you ship it by truck? Has to be cheaper then UPS.
Mark Grasser
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: ACP twin motor setup
Just a clarification.
You can't really send your warp to the manufactureer to be fixed if
you are in california. Althought they have a plant out here, they will
only fix them back east.
Shipping has changed from $100 (a year and a half ago) to $350 each
way. Someone said just trash my new motor and buy another one, it
wasn't worth the shipping both ways. The good news is there are options.
take the motor apart and ship UPS, they allow 150Lbs/package now. ship
it ground, from a buisness address that has regular pickups and it costs
1/2 as much as shipping as an individual from a home address. And most
importantly, Jim of hi torque electic is on this coast. It only cost me
$65 to ship my motor in 2 boxes to Jim; (of course it had lost a little
weight :-) but 1 box at 90 and one at 75 lbs)
partial comparison of systems Victor please jump in with MES and Seimans.
AC
DC
ACP box 176 Lbs 1604 in^3 zilla 1k
~2650 21 291 in^3
ACP motor 110 Lbs PFC 50
~3000 42 lbs 1330 in^3
100amp
dc-dc ~449 8 lbs 227 in^3
25,000 Contactors
~1000
warp 9
~1650 165 Lbs
$25,000 286 Lbs 1604 in^3 electronics
$8749 236 lbs 1848 in^3
NEITHER system includes transmission
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence wrote:
> The Bridgestone is 16 pounds the Hercules LT is 25 pounds. Max pressure for
> the Hercules is 50 vs 44 for the Bridgestone. The tire I have on now is
> 25.25 inches in diameter. The Bridgestone is 24.3 and the Hercules is 25.7.
Get the Bridgestone since it's lighter weight(improved performance,
better braking, better acceleration), and also since it's a shorter
tire, it will give you slightly lower gearing for better acceleration.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Nov 19, 2005, at 2:27 AM, David Roden wrote:
On 18 Nov 2005 at 19:30, jerry dycus wrote:
This is misleading as many cars now have cleaner
exhausts than
the air that goes into them
I hear this a lot. It's actually been advanced as a reason to AVOID
developing EVs! I find it difficult to believe.
Snip rant!
This is way Off Topic for the EV list and known flame bait. Please move
the discussion off list.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David and All,
David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 18 Nov 2005 at 19:30, jerry dycus
wrote:
> This is misleading as many cars now have cleaner exhausts than
> the air that goes into them
I hear this a lot. It's actually been advanced as a reason to AVOID
developing EVs! I find it difficult to believe.
There are many reasons to develop EV's other than pollution though
that is a big reason. But here we are not comparing to an EV, but to an EV and
an ICE car that would be needed to match my sometimes hybrid in utility. And
I'd like to see the ICE car that gets 100+ mpg !!
I'm not a chemist or physicist, but it seems to me that much depends on how
one defines "cleaner." If the definition is limited to, say, CO and HC,
maybe. I can see how a catalytic converter could actually reduce the CO
and/or HC content in extremely contaminated air, though I have yet to see
concrete proof that such really happens.
Look at the PZEV EPA car credits, results for some Honda's, ect.
Besides, even if it is so, look what it's turning them into: CO + O2 = CO2;
HC + O2 = H2O + CO2. True, CO2 is an atmospheric gas. But should the
exhaust of a vehicle be considered cleaner than ambient air when it has a
much higher than normal proportion of CO2? Again, it's a matter of
definition.
If you define CO2 as a pollutant, then the mentioned type of hybrid
beats the PZEV emissions cars as it puts out less than 1/3 of the CO2 they do
due to much greater eff. Now include the EV battery charged trip portion, and
it's even much less.
What about NOx? How are these reduced when air in which they are
significant components is used for ICE combustion? (I'm asking: I just
don't know.)
Depending on the engine, it can be tuned out or using a fuel like
10% ethanol or EGR. Or one can spray ethanol/water into the intake or use
ethanol, propane or NG as a cooler burning fuel.. But as these small motors run
cool, it's not as much a problem. And there are cats for these small engines
now. and I'll be happy to make engines to those fuels.
Then there are the unregulated compounds, such as
formaldehydes, hydrogen sulfide, sulfuric acid vapor, and many others.
Formaldehydes, ect, are HC's and correctly tuned, are burned up.
Sulfur comes from the fuel which is removed in the fuel production process now
so not present today.
These can make a "clean" exhaust (by EPA definition) pretty darn dirty. Go
stand behind an ICE, especially during warmup. There's definitely SOMETHING
coming out of that tailpipe with a distinctive, sharp odor.
That was a problem in the late 70's, early 80's before they found out
that hotrodding the engines cleaned them up by burning everything. You won't
find that odor in new engines or in mine. And my small motor warms up much
faster than a reg car motor as much less mass, No?
I would invite anyone who believes that ICEs clean the air to shut his
garage door and have a nice, comfy seat next to his idling car while it's
cleaning the air in his garage. ;-)
You'll find out many are having a problem commiting suicide this
way nowdays. Not good for one but still.
> Trees, people literally put out HC's too ...
Sure, but what's the point? Does that make it OK for vehicles to emit them
in larger than necessary quantities?
You need to look at the overall emissions here. Just how much
emissions does building a second car make ? Why won't you answer that question?
If modern ICE emission controls can
reduce them to level X, how is it progress to fit a hybrid vehicle with an
engine that emits at 3X or 5X or 10X?
Explained earlier as emissions get close to zero, comparisons like
that lose practical meaning. Yet you refuse to reconize the emissions benefit
of not having a second car and the money needed and the emissions to earn that
money for it don't you?
I really think that we hamper the argument for EVs when we allow these kinds
of rationalizations to creep into the discussion.
They are not rationalzations, but facts. You refuse to look at all
the facts, cherry picking those that just support your already made up mind
even if they are not applical.
An ICEV is not, cannot be, a zero emission vehicle. (Forgive me, but the
"PZEV" designation for certain "hybrids" is literally laughable.)
Let's see, a PZEV that puts out 1/3 of a reg cars emissions is
laughable? I though the idea was lower emissions. Since you would need a second
car vs just 1 EV, rarely hybrid I'm advocating, you are saying it should be
more polluting reg car and not a ZPEV?
Furthermore, a motorcycle or industrial engine is not as well controlled for
emissions as a modern automobile engine. How the MC or industrial engine is
tuned is immaterial.
Just how do you think cars emissions are achieved? Tuning !! No?
Then please explain to me how they do it in detail?
It will never attain the same level of emissions
reduction as a modern ICE automobile, because it just isn't designed to do
so.
That's your opinion. Add the pollution of building the second car,
it's CO2, other emissions and it is many times more than the minute emissions
of the rarely used sometimes hybrid motor of my type. No?
Designing a vehicle drivetrain - it's a mater of integrated design, not
just engine design - for low emissions is not trivial.
These are facts and they can't be rationalized away.
You seem to be rationalizing much more than I do. I try to stick
to facts, actual emissions based on EPA tests, my experience passing them,
manufacturing emissions for the second car and it's costs, emissions of the
money needed to buy, maintain it..
No matter how much one wants to think that some hybrid design based on an
industrial or motorcycle engine is "clean," without extensive engine
redesign it is not, cannot be, as clean as a normal production ICE-based
vehicle. And it is clearly much dirtier than a pure EV.
But you still don't include the second car and the emissions it
causes that would be nessasary to replace that hybrid motor. Without including
that, your point is incomplete, isn't it?
IMO, to suggest
otherwise is disingenuous - particularly when one is offering such a vehicle
for sale.
My motors will be low emissions as I will make them that way thru
hotrodding,ie more eff, and good tuning, especially overall compared especially
to an EV and an ICE that it replaces that I tell others to and how to do..
Later, as I get more money, I'll make ones that gets even less emissions.
Just because you don't understand true and total emissions output,
doesn't make you right. You take a few facts and expoilate them to places they
don't belong. That's just what Detroit does with EV facts, not good company.
I've made my points and this is my last post on this as it's getting
OT. I'd like to hear your answers to my questions though, it should be
entertaining.
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
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On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 03:46:55 -0800 (PST), Bruce Weisenberger
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Not to put a damper on anyones ideas here but this is
>a little kids bike. 8-12 year olds. It is suppose to
>be a motorcyle replica similar to the pedal cars. It
>will not hold a 150 lbs plus person without bending
>the frame.
I'm not so sure about that. One of the neighborhood drunks who's lost
his license rides one of the non-electric ones to and from work every
day. I see him pass the restaurant several times each day. He's not
a large guy but definitely an adult.
I'll have to say that the riding position looks to be miserable. He
looks like he's laboring even on level ground.
John
>
>--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>>
>> >
>>
>http://www.schwinnstingray.com/pr_electric_sting-ray_launch.html
>>
>> ~$400 if anyone wants one..
>>
>>
>http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3599968
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
>http://farechase.yahoo.com
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 05:44:22 -0800 (PST), Bob Bath
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hi Bruce,
> This has been kicked around on the list more times
>than you can imagine. During '97-04, the traffic on
>the list came to the conclusion that after one paid
>for the EV electronics (8K), and the "glider" (shell
>of a car with a blown engine, 3K), and some labor,
>(3-4K) that the cars are out of the reach of people
>without a big heart for doing "the right thing".
Of course not, no more than one could build a gas car by buying a
glider, a general purpose engine from A, a general purpose
transmission from party B, lashing them together with adapters and
hoping to make a profit while competing with the integrated products
from the OEMs.
IMO, the company that builds a reasonably priced EV will be the one
that integrates from bumper to bumper, either designing or working
with strategic partners to design every component specifically for the
application. This will, of course, take a very large capital
investment. I read somewhere that both Ford and GM spend in excess of
a billion bux to bring a totally new platform to market. I don't
doubt it, especially after working with both companies and observing
just a little bit of what is involved.
Looking past the nose candy and the financial shenanigans, I think
that DeLorean approached the process correctly. Of course, he was one
of the top men in the auto industry and so knew what he was doing.
The following is solely for those on the list who are somewhat
mentally addled and can't otherwise recognize it:
<Sarcasm alert>
I find it interesting that none of the so-called celebrity True
Believers has seen fit to put up any of their money to help make a
production EV a reality. After all, Bruce Willis has put up a
megabuck of his own money on the head of that terrorist leader in
Iraq, plus he's spent another small fortune on GI health and welfare
issues.
Four or five of 'em could dip into their fortunes for a few megabucks
and start a nice little EV company. Perhaps not build a "car for the
people" but at least get a low luxury-priced one to market. Oh, wait,
I forgot. This type of person is into OPM and OPB (other peoples'
money and other peoples' business.)
/sarcasm alert>
Bruce,
I'd be interested in working on electrical/electronic design problems.
No altruism involved, though. I'd have to be paid in real time. OTOH,
I work quite cheaply on projects I'm interested in. :-) Contact me
off-list if you're interested.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 11:16:31 -0600, Ryan Stotts
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Danny Miller wrote:
>
>> safety cage is definitely doing the best job it could do.
>
>Substantial crash. Situation and reality is though: even with the
>body strapped in place and even if the person had a helmet on and it
>was restrained to the seat as to not move forward; the brain can't be
>restrained.
>
(I don't know how this list gets off on these crazy tangents.)
Anyway..
People routinely survive collisions from those speeds. I'm one. In
1975 while driving my brand new 280Z home from work, I was struck
head-on by a drunk who though he was dropping into a non-existent turn
lane on the 2 lane highway we were on. Reconstruction showed that we
both were going about the same speed. I was doing 65 when I saw him
drop out of a string of cars. I only got about 20 ft of skid marks so
I was still going perhaps 60 at impact. This was an equal-momentum
collision, as we came to a stop within 20 ft of the initial impact
point.
My Z had none of this silly passive "protection" stuff and yet I got
out and walked away with no injuries other than a blister where the
shoulder harnass burned my chest. As I found out later what is
typical in such wrecks, the frictional heat in the seat belt melted it
to form a semi-rigid structure that would support its weight when held
out horizontally.
I ended up sitting on the engine. Everything was gone forward of the
firwall. I barely had time to brace myself against the wheel as I had
practiced for car racing crash prep. My forearms bent the wheel down
around the steering column. The seat was partially ripped out of the
floor mounts, along with a goodly chunk of the unibody. The CB radio
that I had laying on the rear deck because I'd not had time to mount
it make a large dent in the back of the seat.
Yet I walked away unharmed. I didn't even have much of a headache.
The Datsun engineers really did their jobs on occupant protection and
I did mine by using the seat belts.
An air force medical doctor proved that the human body can survive
forces in the area of 50 Gs without serious injuries. Maj. John P.
Stapp, M.D is one of my heros, a true gonzo researcher. He conducted
this research on himself using the rocket sled at Muroc AFB. His most
famous intentional run was an 48 G ride where he stopped from 88 mph
in 18 ft. He later unintentionally sustained almost 60 Gs when
someone made a math error. He suffered detached retinas in that one.
Fortunately they healed spontaneously.
Here is a brief biography of his work.
http://www.edwards.af.mil/moments/docs_html/47-12-10.html
Googling on his name will turn up many other stories about his life.
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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On Saturday 19 November 2005 07:48 am, bruce bogusz wrote:
> I just inherited a 2 plant metal fabricating business that we are in the
> process of selling off or closing down. It however struck me that maybe I
> should use one plant to produce a low-cost EV. Anyone have any interest or
> thoughts on this?
The EV business is embryonic at best. I don't think anyone is making any real
money in it. Most do it as a labor of love, or in the hopes of making a
profit sometime in the future.
The *people* are the greatest asset in a business. What are the skills,
experience, motivation, and goals of the people working at the plant? The
plant itself is just a tool for helping them to get the job done.
If they happen to be interested in EVs, great! Do some brainstorming, turn 'em
loose, and see what they can do! More likely, they aren't interested in EVs,
but maybe there *is* something they really liked doing and would like to do
more of.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 19 Nov 2005 at 11:16, Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Situation and reality is though: even with the
> body strapped in place and even if the person had a helmet on and it
> was restrained to the seat as to not move forward; the brain can't be
> restrained.
>
I'm convinced that a ^well designed^ small car can protect its occupants as
well as or better than ^SOME^ large vehicles, particularly older trucks with
rigid frames not designed for energy absorption. (Note that I'm not arguing
that ^every^ small car is safer than ^every^ truck.)
However, the tiny Smart just hasn't much crush zone. There's not a lot of
time or space in front of the cabin for absorbing the enormous forces
involved in a 70mph crash. Yes, the cabin itself remained intact, but
imagine the force on the occupants when the cabin boundary hit the barrier.
I don't think a dummy would have fared well in that car (to say nothing of a
human). But I would love to see dummy tests prove me wrong.
That said, I'm all for making Smart EVs. Remember that the car was
originally intended to be an EV! One might play the odds, realizing that
especially as an EV these cars will seldom be driven at speeds over 45 mph
so in many cases collision forces will be lower than this spectacular crash.
But make sure that you as a converter carry plenty of liability insurance!
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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