EV Digest 4962
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Connecting Muliple 12V battery chargers?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Batteries: Can you explain what happens?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Washington State & Bainbridge Island
by "Kim Bottles" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Link-10
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool
by "Jake Oshins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: How Hot Does a Terminal Get?
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: KTA Services Website
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Washington State & Bainbridge Island
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: KTA Services Website
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Am I Killing Batteries?
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Any one have experience shipping wet cells?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Washington State & Bainbridge Island
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: KTA Services Website
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) E-meter prescaler option
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Washington State & Bainbridge Island
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV digest 4960
by Calvin King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Conversion kit platforms
by Chris Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: KTA Services Website
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Washington State & Bainbridge Island
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:55 AM 3/12/05 -0800, Michael wrote:
I realized this was asked before, but I'm still
confused.
Over here:
http://www.autobarn.net/vec1095bd2.html
There's this 12V battery charger "25A" They sell them
at my local sam's club for $50.
Hi Michael
They are electronics-chargers, not transformer chargers. They are designed
for automotive battery charging - I would expect the failiure rate to be
high if asked to charge EV-sized batteries. If you were to use them, it
would be one charger across two 6 volt pairs. I wouldn't use them.
For $500 you should be able to find a forklift charger and get it rewound
to suit the voltage, or a secondhand 'real' charger. Better to take a deep
breath & get a charger designed for the job.
Just my 0.02
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Dec 3, 2005, at 7:54 AM, Michaela Merz wrote:
The truck ran great for about 8 Miles. I was running at approx. 180 A
for
50 Mph @ 112V (on the voltmeter). Suddenly the voltage went down and
within 3 Miles dropped all the way to about 98 V. I stopped the truck
and
measured an idle voltage of about 108 V. After a few minutes, voltage
was
back to 121 V and I was (barely) able to make it back to the shop.
Sounds like a bad battery or two. I would drive it until that behavior
just starts (staying near home) and then park it and put some load on
the pack (about 25 amps of heaters would be good.) Then check the
voltages of each battery under load. The stinker(s) should show up.
Recording the resting voltage after a drive (waiting long enough that
the voltage doesn't climb more than 0.01 volt in the time it takes to
check all the batteries) and voltage under modest load (waiting long
enough for the voltage to stabilize again) and posting that info for
all your batteries here will almost certainly get you some answers.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is the 5k a limit to fit in the shows theme? who is gonna watch a show
where the two teams have unlimited funds. The premise of a fixed "do it
yourself" level budget may be to help "relate" to the audience. The fact
that they don't know 5K isn't enough for a Decent EV is ignorance or
sadly, also the state of affairs on something so "new"
(I can't believe I said that, the first cars were electric, right?) Lets
say "non-mainstream"
No-one said it had to be efficient or smooth, just powerfull.
4 motors and series parallel pack and motors, that is how many
speeds? only one contactor needs to break amperage, rest can be switched
of-line
how about clutch to big ass mechanical contact filled with oil.
shifter to interconnect board for the different speeds.
push on clutch and stick it in 48V pack and 4 forklift motors
in series
push on clutch and "shift" to 2+2 series parallel motors
4 parallel
motors
96V pack
junkyard war stuff.
I think if they are really starting filming next week, they have
already got all the stuff lined up. they have already decided on the
outcome they want.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello EV List,
I just bought a Solectria Force (it is currently being trucked to
Washington State from Missouri.)
I noticed the Missouri title I received from the seller indicates it is
a Chevy Geo Metro and the VIN number indicates a 4 cyl gas engine.
First question is "did Solectria buy the Geo with or without the
gasoline drive train?"
Second question is "does Washington State recognize EV's on their titles
and if so what will I have to do to get it registered as such when I go
to the licensing agent next week when it arrives?"
Last question is "are any of you list readers on Bainbridge Island?" If
so I would like to know who you are so I start to know who the support
system might be for this first venture into an EV. (My wife thinks I may
have lost my mind here with this purchase, however most of what I do
seems to amuse her, so why not an EV?)
Cheers!
Kim Bottles - K7IM
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.grassrootsev.com/monitor.htm
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Link-10
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 23:18:29 +0800
I am looking for a Link-10 (previously E-meter) for a 144V system. Ideally
it
would have the RS-232 connector. I tried EVparts and they said they can't
get
the prescalers required for 144V. Anyone got any idea where I could get
one?
Regards, Rod Dilkes
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is fantastically off-topic. So I'll keep this really brief.
The "I/O DLL" mentioned below is a shaky way to get Windows to allow an
application to manipulate hardware. It probably works as advertised,
but I'll bet that it's less than 100% reliable and it certainly weakens
the security model in Windows. (I am aware that most users run Windows
unpatched and with administrator rights, which makes the security thing
moot. So don't bother to point that out.)
I'm mentioning this here only because I'm perfectly willing to help any
EV enthusiast out there to get Windows to control any relevant piece of
hardware that you might encounter, in ways that are a little more
architecturally sound. I write Windows drivers all day long.
Contact me off-list if you're interested in help.
- Jake Oshins
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Andre' Blanchard
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 8:52 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool
At 07:50 AM 12/1/2005, you wrote:
>I'd like to hear what you did on the software side. Recently I ran a
>test of reading a radio shack meter with a serial port as a daemon in
>linux. It worked fine except the data transmitted from the meter is
>which elements on the display are on and the meter's resolution is
>really too coarse for reading a shunt.
>
>I discovered in windows it takes a fair amount of code to create a
>"driver" as they run in "kernel space" but if you don't the program can
>be eaisily ignored, shut down, corrupted. And if you do it must be
>rebooted to install it or restart it. At least for development the
>linux route is simpler, the daemon is startable and stoppable without
>reboot because it runs in "user space", I can forego the gui(i found
out
>how to avoid the gui in windows also) and get a bootable system off of
a
>floppy( not possible wiht windows) or better a USB drive(no moving
>parts) As a really wild idea, people are putting a small linux on used
>linksys routers to serve out pages.
I just found this program (DLL) and have not had any chance to look into
how well it works but anyone trying to do low level IO operations from
Windows may want to look into it. The description sounds interesting
and
the price is hard to beat, unless you want the source code.
http://www.geekhideout.com/iodll.shtml
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Even if the speed would be limited to 9600 and there are 32
batteries or other devices on the bus, each could send up to
300 bits per second, while the typical amount of data of a
single voltage measurement takes 1/10 of that number of bits.
So there still is an order of magnitude more bandwidth than
the application needs. What was the problem again?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 7:32 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool
> Neon John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> It's not an either-or situation in most cases. Bandwidth is
>> cheaper'n dirt now. Not excuse whatsoever to run a bus at a
>> snail's pace like 9600.
>
>> As far as ASCII packet, YES, YES, YES!!!
>
> This is the problem with the question having been posed out of context.
> The context is that of having several (up to 32-34) devices all sharing
> a common 9600bps serial bus to exchange data. The desire is to support
> ASCII format data to make it easy to troubleshoot and to monitor data
> exchanges with off-the-shelf serial terminal software and a simple
> hardware adapter between the bus and the RS232 port. However, the
> bandwidth available is limited to 9600bps, so ASCII format data packets
> place significant constraints on the data transfer rates that can be
> achieved. If essentially unlimited bandwidth could be assumed, then it
> is a no-brainer to go with ASCII format data packets, but unfortunately
> in this case the bandwidth is quite limited.
Ok we need more info. Why is the bandwidth limited to 9600?
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> M Bianchi wrote:
> > I'm going to put non-reversable temperature-indicator labels
on the
> > terminals of my traction pack... How hot will a _properly_
connected
> > battery terminal get, at say 250 Amps. I'm _guessing_ that
170 degrees
> > F might be a reasonable number, but if anyone on the list can
say
> > something more certain, I would appreciate it.
>
> Bob Rice riffed on the topic.
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
> > I'd say the "overtemperature" limit should be between 140
deg.F and 200 deg.F.
> > The low end is very safe, but might falsely trip on a hot day
after a long
> > high-current run. The upper end is just short of the point
where you are
> > going to have to walk home!
>
> I'm not planning on putting any sort of temperature cut-off
switch, which you
> answer suggests. I'm just looking for a means to detect the
"hot spot".
>
>
> John De Armond wrote:
> > I'm not sure I'd go as high as 200 deg. I'd be looking at
the
> > softening/creep temperature of the battery case plastic. The
first
> > damage would be the terminal loosening in the case and
allowing acid
> > to creep out. Further plastic creep could let an internal
connection
> > break or plate move about.
> >
> > I have 120 deg "tattletails" on a few of my battery
terminals. I've
> > never had one trigger, even at the 400+ amps my Citi pulls
from the
> > battery on hills.
>
> This is exactly what I have in mind! But see below.
>
> > My personal limit is "comfortably warm". If I feel a
terminal and
> > find it more than slightly warm then I start looking for the
reason.
>
M Bianchi wrote:
> I had non-reversable temperature-indicator labels on the
battery blocks and
> major electronics boxes in the Solectria Force for 10 years.
They ALL
> registered 125 degrees F, but none of them measured 150. I
take 125 to be the
> temperature under the hood, in the trunk and in the battery
boxes on hot summer
> days in the sun. The labels on the batteries were on the
plastic, but it
> occurred to me that the most likely failure would be a loose
terminal
> connection, hence putting labels on the terminals.
>
> So, I'm guessing a 5-spot label (140 - 180 degF), 0.5 inch
diameter, would be
> a good choice.
>
> Thanks all!
A little behind on my EVDL reading (as usual), but I wanted to
comment. I had posted a while back querying about temperature
dots for terminals. I followed up on Neon John's suggestion (or
one of his suggestions) of going to omega.com. I ordered up some
of the 150-degF Celsi-Dots and placed them on a few of the posts
of my old pack (swapped out last May), and already knew I had one
hot post (ouch!, eventually it got to be, after coming up the
hill at 350A for about 45 sec, eventually forcing me to wait for
five minutes in the lower apt complex). Towards the end, I could
see the melt-able heat shrink tubing on the cable starting to
pull back and the boot was starting to gain a circular impression
of the post. I just made it to the end of that pack. Later, on
my new pack, I found with a Celsi-Dot that I had apparently
damaged that cable, since the new post still would still turn the
dot black (indicating the temperature had been reached), so I
saved the old cable for a rainy day or a less demanding app than
hill climbing.
With my new pack, I recall being surprised by only one 150-degF
Celsi-Dot turn black, and that was in October on a sunny day when
I was out for 40+ miles and about 1500-2000 feet of hill
climbing. A new Celsi-Dot (since they are non-reversible) placed
on that post has not changed, so it may have just been a one-off
thing in Oct, a defective Celsi-Dot, or I may just have a post
that finally gets warm enough under that kind of stress.
Neon John indicates omega's stuff is expensive. A 50-pak of
TL-S-150-50 Celsi-Dots at omega.com is only $9, which I don't
find objectionable at all. Heck, the shipping and handling is
almost as expensive as the Celsi-Dots.
Lee had indicated back when I initially asked about dots that
most of his had finally slid off his posts. I haven't had too
much trouble with that - I'll occasionally have one fall apart or
stick to the bottom of the cable boot. Of course, it helped that
I could apply them to nice new shiny battery terminals
(automotive), and that I cleaned up any errant noalox out of my
cable boots, so that the dots wouldn't stick to the insides of
the boots.
For the price of admission, so far I'm happy and my blood
pressure is lower. I have something keeping an eye on those
posts ALL THE TIME (and don't have to run random touchy-feely
experiments), so I'm more likely to get a heads up before I melt
a post on a hill (something I have yet to do :-) ).
Chuck
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I do tend to agree with Ken when it comes to answering inquiries by
telephone and not email (He doesn't even offer an email address. Wise
move. Can you say wasted time?). You can spend endless amounts of time
answering emails. (many are from the clueless and folks looking to you to
endlessly educate them for free, and/or engineer their projects for them
for free. And a large percentage of them have no intention of purchasing
anything) Most of them will be non-productive. I have long experience in
this area. :-0 I would betcha that one in a thousand email inquiries
concerning EV conversions actually bears fruit.
Sorry, Roy. Based on years of experience, I have to respectfully
disagree. I would guess that at least half of our sales begin with email
conversations. I thank God for email every day. I can answer a dozen
emails in the time it takes for a single phone call. Many people ask the
same questions: Can my (fill in the blank) be converted? Do I need the
clutch? How much will it cost? How far can I drive? Etc. (Even though
most of this info is already on the web site. Oh, well!) I have form
responses I can answer these with in 30 seconds. Then there's "I want to
know everything about electric cars." Try answering THAT one on the
phone! Or the guy who wants to tell you about his perpetual motion
invention. Email: 30 seconds. Phone: 30 minutes to half a day. Sale: none.
We could never handle the amount of inquiries we get purely by phone. (As
for the spike since August, nothing short of cloning ourselves would help,
but that's another story.) On a good day, I can answer 30-40 emails. In
fact, we had to put on a phone answering machine in self defence, because
it was the only way we could get anything done EXCEPT phone calls - like
actual production.
Phone, snail mail, or email, there are a hundred inquiries (at least) for
every kit sale. Answering them all takes a lot of time, and you can't tell
which ones will become sales. Some of the most unlikely have ended up
buying kits, and others that sounded like they already had their checkbooks
open have mysteriously vanished.
I'll take email, thank you!
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3 Dec 2005 at 14:44, Kim Bottles wrote:
> First question is "did Solectria buy the Geo with or without the
> gasoline drive train?"
Most of the Forces were converted from complete Metros. I heard that
Solectria used to have a huge stack of nearly new exhaust systems,
radiators, and such behind the shop.
For just a few years late in production, Solectria was able to get gliders
from GM. This reduced the price of the Force considerably.
Sorry, I can't help you with the other questions.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Electro Automotive:
Have you thought about maybe doing free install on anything you sell?
Or free conversions if the person buys the parts from you? Or make
some converted vehicles and put them up for sale?
I think what is really needed, is an updated conversion kit for a more
modern vehicle.
What exactly were the qualities of the Rabbit that made it the
conversion choice in the first place? What car today has those
traits?
Maybe the Civic or Eclipse? Or even a kit for small trucks or SUV's?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Roger Stockton wrote:
Which Trojan specs are you charging to? What they publish on their
website for general use is *not* what they recommend for traction
applications.
--and--
For traction applications, Trojan recommends equalising anytime you
have any cell under 1.260 at the end of charge.
So, in addition to this, what exactly does Trojan recommend for
traction applications that differs from their general
specs/recommendations?
Thanks,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I did not ship my AGMs, the manufacturer did.
They used Saia motorfreight: www.saia.com
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Patrick Maston
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 4:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Any one have experience shipping wet cells?
Well I didn't ship them, but US Battery shipped me a pallet of wet
lead-acids (20) in a semi-trailer. I think they used Yellow Freight
(it's been a while so my memory has faded). They were just set on a
pallet in two layers with cardboard in between, then wrapped in clear
plastic wrap.
Blue skies,
Patrick
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/1/05 2:07:30 PM >>>
I am attempting to ship some SAFT STM nicads across country. Has
anyone
done this? I need to know what shipper you used and what the packaging
requirements were. I am trying to find out now if USPS will handle
them. UPS looks like a no go for non contract shippers.
I would ship them completely discharged with the end cell water
connections plugged. The electrolyte should be completely absorbed in
this charge state. I'm attempting to get individual battery shipping
boxes from SAFT.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Paul Wallace
'91 Chevy S-10 full of SAFT nicads
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Dec 3, 2005, at 2:44 PM, Kim Bottles wrote:
Second question is "does Washington State recognize EV's on their
titles
and if so what will I have to do to get it registered as such when I go
to the licensing agent next week when it arrives?"
Yes, fuel code is E for electric. If you don't get that changed you
will have a problem passing the smog test <g>.
To change the fuel code you have to make an appointment to take it to a
state patrol inspection station. I live in Everett and my closest one
was just north of Marysville. The inspection should be painless, at
least my experience was that they didn't check anything except for
verifying the lack of ability to propel it with fuel. They fill out
some forms you take to your local licensing agent. The vehicle is
registered normally and you have the small extra fee to have the state
send you a new title (fuel type is a title recorded item.)
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3 Dec 2005 at 18:52, Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Have you thought about maybe doing free install on anything you sell?
> Or free conversions if the person buys the parts from you?
I don't speak for EA or anyone of that ilk, but it seems to me that's a lot
of labor to provide for free. It's already pretty darn hard to make a
living at EV sales to hobbyists.
> Or make some converted vehicles and put them up for sale?
Dozens or maybe hundreds of conversion companies have failed doing this.
Consider the cost of inventory and storage against the limited demand.
>
> I think what is really needed, is an updated conversion kit for a more
> modern vehicle.
> What exactly were the qualities of the Rabbit that made it the
> conversion choice in the first place? What car today has those
> traits?
This is a subject that's been discussed quite extensively in the past on the
list. You might want to check the archives to read some of that discussion.
It's not trivial to develop a kit for any vehicle, and the situation is made
appreciably more difficult by the rounded shape and low hoodlines of current
cars. Most batteries are still rectangular, tall, and bulky.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rod and EVeryone,
I am looking for a Link-10 (previously E-meter) for a 144V system. Ideally it
would have the RS-232 connector. I tried EVparts and they said they can't get
the prescalers required for 144V. Anyone got any idea where I could get one?
Regards, Rod Dilkes
I don't have any connection to the company, and don't know the price or
any other details (i.e. haven't used the product), but found a possible
prescaler alternative here:
http://www.belktronix.com/emeter.html
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Free Shipping on *all* items in our store for December!
Includes Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kim Bottles" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 2:44 PM
Subject: Washington State & Bainbridge Island
(stuff snipped out)
Last question is "are any of you list readers on Bainbridge Island?" If
so I would like to know who you are so I start to know who the support
system might be for this first venture into an EV. (My wife thinks I may
have lost my mind here with this purchase, however most of what I do
seems to amuse her, so why not an EV?)
You might be the only list member on Bainbridge Island. I don't think
I've ever seen anyone else on this list who said they were from Bainbridge.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
This is not true in all cases. A specific example is Trojan's new J150
12V battery:
This battery uses the same plates as the T105, but arranged as a 12V
150Ah battery instead of a 6V 225Ah battery.
Does this mean that I could use 10 - J150's and get better results
than my current set up of 16 T105's, that is better milage per charge
and better execration?
Calvin King
'81 Jet Electica
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know all of the reasons for choosing the Rabbit, but one of them
is the long run the model had with the same body design year after year.
And that is a characteristic that doesn't exist in modern cars today, as
far as I'm aware. You often have designs change in the middle of model
years these days. Designing a kit for a modern car means accepting that
you will soon be redesigning it if you want it to keep selling.
I agree though ... it would be nice to have kits available for more
modern, attractive and desireable cars.
--chris
On Sat, 2005-12-03 at 18:52 -0600, Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Electro Automotive:
>
> Have you thought about maybe doing free install on anything you sell?
> Or free conversions if the person buys the parts from you? Or make
> some converted vehicles and put them up for sale?
>
> I think what is really needed, is an updated conversion kit for a more
> modern vehicle.
>
> What exactly were the qualities of the Rabbit that made it the
> conversion choice in the first place? What car today has those
> traits?
>
> Maybe the Civic or Eclipse? Or even a kit for small trucks or SUV's?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:52 PM 12/3/05 -0600, you wrote:
Electro Automotive:
Have you thought about maybe doing free install on anything you sell?
Or free conversions if the person buys the parts from you?
Only if I want to go completely broke very, very fast.
Or make
some converted vehicles and put them up for sale?
Absolutely not. Huge investment of time and money, which we don't have to
spare. Then, if you don't get a buyer right away, the batteries are going
stale. We recommend against mechanics building cars except with a firm
order and deposit in hand.
I think what is really needed, is an updated conversion kit for a more
modern vehicle.
That would be nice.
What exactly were the qualities of the Rabbit that made it the
conversion choice in the first place? What car today has those
traits?
None. The qualities that made the Rabbit a good choice were: 1. Very
popular conversion choice already, 2. Good space available for batteries,
and 3. Long production run ('74 - '92 counting Cabriolets) with very few
changes. The last item is the real kicker. Most modern cars make
significant changes every 3 years or so, so it is impossible to standardize
a kit for a large number of model years.
Maybe the Civic or Eclipse? Or even a kit for small trucks or SUV's?
It took us building 2-3 complete cars (for which we had very patient
customers) to develop and proof each kit, and hundreds of hours of time:
design, document, fit, redesign, redocument, etc.
We are running as hard as we can to keep up with the business we've already
got. We can't take off what would amount to a full-time month to do
something like this.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey
I grew up down on the Rock.
I have two EV in Kitsap co.
Have the power class changed to E for electric on the registration, and
Washington State wilk be happy.
Use JRO up in Poulsbo... they have taken care of it for me once.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kim Bottles" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 2:44 PM
Subject: Washington State & Bainbridge Island
> Hello EV List,
>
>
>
> I just bought a Solectria Force (it is currently being trucked to
> Washington State from Missouri.)
>
>
>
> I noticed the Missouri title I received from the seller indicates it is
> a Chevy Geo Metro and the VIN number indicates a 4 cyl gas engine.
>
>
>
> First question is "did Solectria buy the Geo with or without the
> gasoline drive train?"
>
>
>
> Second question is "does Washington State recognize EV's on their titles
> and if so what will I have to do to get it registered as such when I go
> to the licensing agent next week when it arrives?"
>
>
>
> Last question is "are any of you list readers on Bainbridge Island?" If
> so I would like to know who you are so I start to know who the support
> system might be for this first venture into an EV. (My wife thinks I may
> have lost my mind here with this purchase, however most of what I do
> seems to amuse her, so why not an EV?)
>
>
>
> Cheers!
>
>
>
> Kim Bottles - K7IM
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yea And I feel that I am that "Expert" and time is the one thing that can
make this fail.
Oh well I can do only what is possible.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
> Here's the deal on Monster Garage. They start shooting
> Monday morning. They will waste half a day on intros
> and the guys will be lucky to get much done without
> parts. Usually they have met with some "expert" who
> has them figure out what they might need. The builders
> will work like crazy, trying to get the thing done on
> time while the crew and producers try to keep up with
> them. There is no amount of armchair quarterbacking
> that can help them now! They are on their own. I'm
> sure whatever they do will make great TV and hopefully
> pique interest in EV's.
>
> Gadget
>
> visit my websites at www.reverendgadget.com, gadgetsworld.org,
leftcoastconversions.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hold on Guys... let the production folks do thier magic ont he parts
procurment... that's thier Job
And filming starts Monday morning.....
So... Let us figure it out with what they have, the calls for
heroics...needs to be held onto for a few more days.
Keep in mind that they most likley won't let me say much here on the list
until it is all in the CAN.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 3:53 PM
Subject: RE: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage
> This is a good idea. If we could put together enough for a Z2K, that would
> make a great donation, and would make sure that the money doesn't get
> blown on useless junk.
>
> Perhaps I could set up a page with a Z2k as a monetary "goal" and folks
> could see an updated display on how close we are?
>
> How long do we have? When does filming start?
>
> --chris
>
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> > <<<<But here's how I see it. We aren't calling the shots. They are. They
> > may
> > have an agenda here, either to really see what can be done with electric
> > power or to make fools of EV supporters and make us all look stupid. We
> > don't know their rationale or motivations, and at any rate we have no
> > control over it. Though it would be cool, we won't get to tell them how
to
> > do the race at the end of the show.>>>>
> >
> > Better gather money and offer an EV part (Z2K, Warp 9, whatever) rather
> > than any
> > money itself. If we knew what they were doing, and if it did fit the
NEDRA
> > class, it would certainly be more of his style for JJ to race the class
> > record
> > holder, don't you think? Someone email him a challenge!
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OOoo Non linear...on of my favorite lines.....
My object is to keep madman in the bottle for as long as I can... Hopefully
not getting screaming tool throwing mad might keep me out of Jail...
We all know how dry my humor can be when faced with certain reaccuring
issues...
There should be enough comments to show my thoughts, without using Madman's
Dark side skill set..
Let the story begin... with the week of guessing and List designs, and the
Passing the hat for a multi Million Buck operation...
Heck keep your change, and Buy my chargers!!
Ooops...
Anyways it will be entertaining... one way or the other...
Rich Rudman
Madman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 4:44 PM
Subject: RE: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage
> Christopher Robison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Well, this is totally pie-in-the-sky but if I could raise
> > enough to buy a Z2k, I'd use it to buy myself another next
> > year and the team can have mine. I sure won't be needing it
> > for a while yet, at the pace my project is going.
>
> My gut feeling is that your heart is in the right place, but that we'd
> be best off accepting that MG will do what they want, and the project
> will succeed or fail regardless of any outside assistance.
>
> Let's say you manage to get them the best possible controller; they can
> still screw the conversion up in any number of ways. Having experts on
> hand telling them that they are going to screw up if they do X isn't
> going to change the fact that they may have no choice but to do X. E.g.
> they insist on using some totally inappropriate battery type because
> that is all that they are able to get within their budget on time. Or,
> they insist on a totally inappropriate pack voltage because they can't
> get a large enough qunatity of batteries for whatever reason. A Z2K
> ain't gonna make up for using a 48V pack in a 3000lb vehicle with a
> motor that wants 120V. Getting the drivetrain electrically right
> (perfect even) but sticking huge gumball tires on such that the frist
> time they punch it the axles snap, etc. because the wheels can't break
> loose is still going to be a disappointing conclusion. There are just
> too many ways for this project to fail no matter what anyone outside
> wants to see happen.
>
> Worst possible case is that after some effort you manage to arrange to
> donate a key component to them, such as your Z2K, and they don't even
> use it for some reason; it just disappears into the black hole. Sure,
> you may not be out any money, but now you've got to wait for another one
> to be built for your project.
>
> I figure that they've had enough knowledgable people warning them of
> things that they need to consider in advance to be able to pull this off
> that they either have heeded the advice because they want it to succeed,
> or no matter who tells them what, or supplies what, they have something
> in mind and are determined to do it their own way regardless of the
> outcome.
>
> This is TV, not reality; sit back and be entertained! If they are
> really going to screw it up, we should at least get to enjoy watching
> the Madman go non-linear on them! ;^>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
> It very well could be done for 5 k. A two motor VW using two 72v AXE
> controllers. The adapter is simple. It could be copied from from a
> wilderness adapter which are cheap. Copy the adapter in mirror image
> putting both motors above the axles. It'd be light if you went with a VW
> pan & a dune buggy body. Hell I bet it'd be real fast & light if you
made
> it with 12 group 31 Optimas. I'd donate the motors. Two real nice ND
> traction motors from a Toyota Electric forklift. But if I donated the
> motors I'd want a cameo. Lawrence Rhodes.......
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 12:00 PM
> Subject: RE: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
>
>
I wonder What Damon's blood pressure would do, When seeing his founding
partner driving his NOW off road product
On TV with a very big name riding along...
Damon got out of On road cotrollers, years ago... I would not use a Altrax
on road for about 10 reasons. Plus I would need about 10 of them to get the
job done.
A Raptor.... or a T-Rex...OK.
Lets keep in mind I have done this a few times....
Rich Rudman
Madman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
NOPE.
$5K is what the controller is worth...
Most of us are not going to donate our pride and joy, that took a 1/2 a
years profit to con off of Ot's hands.
The best line in this thread is Why should the little guys pay for the Big
TV guys play toys?
If they want something really fast they need to buy the team the right gear.
they have lists of e-mails telling them what they need, and they also have
Me at least... So there's not going to be a lot of difference in what they
really do need.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "England Nathan-r25543" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 12:15 PM
Subject: RE: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
> So basically Monster Garage can buy a professional performance EV from the
EV enthusiasts for $5000 and this includes all parts and labor? All they
need to do is televise what they bought and who built it?
>
> Nathan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:16 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
>
> <snip>
> As a side note, all items used on the build become their property.
> <snip>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
List folks.
Mg has a rather well equiped shop... We won't be needing tools.
I don't need a collection....unless I get to make a 12 second street car for
myself...
Keep in mind I have all the parts I need, and not enough time already....
I really appreciate the efforts to try to dredge up motors and controllers
from this list... But It's the production companies wishes that
will prevail.
I could show up with a twin 8s and a Z2K out of my current toy chest.
They didn't ask for them... So I am not bringing them.
It's very humbling to realize that this list would basicly donate a world
record setting drive train to me.. If I asked.
I am NOT asking for this kind of support.
But Thanks all for trying.
I will tell my story of this EV event, in good time. I have to keep in mind
that I need to NOT offend the guys that are doing this,
And.. the story of the story is going to be the best drama out there.
I am going to have a lap top, but I won't be posting from the Shoot. I hope
to do a day by day of the more memorable events... But ... they already
don't want me to
speak of this in the list, until they actually air the show.
So.. I am going to get quite... and sparse starting about 8 am in the
morning.
And... please don't call me Unless you really have a hard charger question.
I may be at a TV segment shoot But I am not behind enemy lines or on the
Moon.
Joe Smalley will be doing Manzanita Micro charger Tech support while I am
out of the loop.
I have clothes that need to be washed and packed... gotta go play Madman for
the Cameras..
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage
> > If you want to donate, I'd suggest that to donate to Madman or the other
> > as-yet-nameless amphead to ensure that they are tooled, which then
> > may/should have a flow-on effect to other EV builders.
> >
> >
>
> Although he'd probably accept whatever money you send his way, I'm sure
the
> Madman doesn't need us to buy any tools for him. If the producers say he
can
> bring whatever is needed for EV construction, then he more than likely
already
> has the right tool(s) for the job. Just sit back and cross your fingers,
'cuz I
> doubt there's anything the rest of us can do about the finished product.
>
> It helps that there are a couple NEDRA members to tell JJ what already has
been
> converted, like the fact there's already a Mustang conversion
("electrified
> pony car"). They've got to cover new ground, right?
>
--- End Message ---
