EV Digest 5009
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: float charging GC batteries?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Vs: Re: Clutchless shift with rpm-matching?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: generator to power TAL inductive charger?
by paul wiley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: float charging GC batteries?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Has DC Reached its Limits?
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: float charging GC batteries?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Has DC Reached its Limits?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Mini Cooper EV weight
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Predictions for the Monster Garage '62 Electric Chevy?
by "BadFishRacing" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: MG,
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: float charging GC batteries?
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Predictions for the Monster Garage '62 Electric Chevy?
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Predictions for the Monster Garage '62 Electric Chevy?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Fw: I stepped on my cord and now I don't know the polarity of my charger
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Failure Modes (was Re: Motor control for direct drive setup)More Stuff.
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Mini Cooper EV weight
by "Monty McGraw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: I stepped on my cord and now I don't know the polarity of my
charger
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Failure Modes (was Re: Motor control for direct drive setup)M
ore Stuff.
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Viper Torque Correction
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
jmygann wrote:
> So, on a 36 volt system (6 - 200 amp batteries) what amp setting
> would be considered a float ? 5 amps ??
On new 6v batteries at 77 deg.F, float them at 2.25c/cell x 18 cells = 40.5
volts. Once they are fully charged, they will draw less than 1 amp at this
voltage.
If the temperature is higher, reduce the voltage. For example, at 100 deg.F,
use 2.18v/cell x 18 = 39.3v.
As the batteries age, reduce the voltage. For example, with 5 year old 6v
batteries, use 2.18v/cell x 18 = 39.3v.
If they are at 100 deg.F *and* are 5 years old, use 2.11v/cell x 18 = 38v.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seppo Lindborg wrote:
> But then the logic must know which gear is the next one. I mean, let's say
> I have third gear on. I need a different RPM in the motor depending if I am
> going next to switch to second gear, or if I am going to switch to fourth
> gear.
Yes. I think you would need switches on the gear shift lever to indicate what
gear you were moving the shift lever towards. The transmission's
synchronizers will prevent you from actually going into that gear until the
speeds match. The switches warn the logic to start forcing the motor speed to
the correct rpm to mesh as soon as possible.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Charles,
Your first choice should power it. However, running it so close to the limits
puts a strain on everything. Thus, possibly reducing the life of the generator.
Buy the bigger one if the money permits. I have learned the hard way in
generators for our stand by telecom stations. MY moto GO BIG and stay running
longer!
paul
> In the aftermath of hurricane Wilma this fall, our local grid was down for
> a
> week and a half, during which time we had no way to charge our two
> RAV4-EVs
> and had to go back to driving our old Honda Civic, which now only serves
> as
> a standby back-up for just such kinds of emergency needs. Last year the
> grid was down for two 1-week periods after hurricanes Francis and Jeanne,
> so
> this has unfortunately become an annual ordeal. I am looking to buy a
> portable diesel generator to use for powering a few essential household
> circuits (e.g. refrigerator, a few lights, and hopefully even one of our
> two
> 19.5-SEER CAC units) plus also for powering the TAL inductive charger
> (although when using the TAL, that would be the *only* circuit connnected
> to
> the generator, i.e. everything else would be turned off and disconnected).
> The reason I want to use a diesel generator and not a gasoline generator
> is
> two-fold. First, it would allow me to use a renewable fuel -- B100
> biodiesel, as opposed to non-renewable gasoline, which is something that
> we
> are purposely trying to move away from and minimize in our lives. Second,
> I
> don't really have any good place to store a large amount of (smelly,
> volatile, and dangerous, especially in 95 degree heat) gasoline on my
> property for an extended period of 4-6 months, which is how long our
> hurricane season runs here. But I can definitely store B100 biodiesel
> [which of course is just trans-esterified (i.e. thinned-out) vegetable
> oil]
> in 55-gallon drums inside our air-conditioned garage studio. Two
> 55-gallon
> drums would likely power all of our essential needs for about 8 days or
> so.
>
> In a quick internet search, I found the following two 6.5kW portable
> diesel
> generators:
> (or semi-portable, I guess I should say, as these things weigh around 520
> lbs., so I'm not sure how easy they are to push around, even on the wheel
> kits that come with them as accessories, which kind of begs the question
> of
> how would I even be able to lift them up and turn them over to install the
> wheel kit on them in the first place)
>
> Kubota GL7000
> http://generator.kubota.jp/gl/gl_7000_usa.html
>
> Yamaha EDL6500S
> www.yamaha-motor.com/outdoor/products/modelhome/452/0/home.aspx
>
> Both of these generators have 4-stroke, 2 cylinder, liquid-cooled diesel
> engines, and both have a maximum continuous output rating of 27.1A at
> 240V.
> If I'm not mistaken, I believe the TAL draws a continuous 27A. So my
> question is: would these generators be able to power the TAL, or would
> 27.1A not provide enough headroom (at only 0.1A) above the 27A that the
> TAL
> needs to be able to run?
>
> I temporarily ran the TAL off of my 30A dryer circuit without any problems
> for the first month that I had it until I got a new 40A, 240V circuit
> installed, so I know that as little as 3A is enough headroom for it to run
> OK, but 0.1A leaves me wondering and somewhat doubtful. Anyone know?
>
> Or would I need to move up to Kubota's next highest model, which is the
> 10kW
> GL11000 that has a maximum continuous output rating of 41.7A at 240V?
> (and is even heavier at 650 lbs!)
> http://generator.kubota.jp/gl/gl_11000_usa.html
>
> (Yamaha doesn't have a higher output model above its 6.5kW diesel
> generator.)
>
> Does anyone have any experience with either Kubota or Yamaha diesel
> generators and/or know anything about their quality and reliability?
>
> Thanks for any advice.
>
> Charles Whalen
> Delray Beach, Florida
>
>
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Dec 19, 2005, at 12:33 PM, jmygann wrote:
So, on a 36 volt system (6 - 200 amp batteries) what amp setting
would be considered a float ? 5 amps ??
None! Float is by nature a constant voltage at the low end of what
could charge a battery (it prevents discharge.) A constant voltage
source of about 40 volts is needed. My idea is to use 3 of the little
wall wart powered constant voltage float chargers. The one I have in my
hand right now seems to be a pretty stable 13.25 volts. I will be
giving it a bit more of a test (to determine actual current limit and
if it is damaged by that.) The idea is to use 3 of them, on 2 GC
batteries each.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Vehicle, 13" motor, Z2K, biggest pack voltage Zilla can handle, direct
drive, 9", correct gearing, slicks, properly setup suspension.
How do I make it go faster?
If you need to be faster AND quicker, you might want to consider another
motor and another Z2K. That's what the NEDRA guys do. Multiple motors
are getting to be the standard for fast electric cars.
You could probably get your motor rewound for more speed (at the cost of
quickness).
Hope this helps!
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Dec 19, 2005, at 9:31 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
There is a range of voltages to deal with temperature and the age of
the
batteries. For new batteries at 25 deg.C (77 deg.F), use 2.25v/cell.
As the
battery ages, and as the temperature rises, reduce the voltage
accordingly.
On float, the batteries will draw very little current; well under 1
amp. A
tiny little "wall wart" type power supply is all it takes.
The cheap 2.2vpc wall wart powered constant voltage trickle charger
I've got in my hand (about 1/2 amp max) sounds like it will work
(provided it passes a torture test.) Thanx Lee!
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ligher vehicle
Better Aerodynamics
Two Warp 13s
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: December 19, 2005 11:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Has DC Reached its Limits?
Roderick wrote:
> Has DC reached it's limits? Your kidding, right?
Here are my concerns about it:
Vehicle, 13" motor, Z2K, biggest pack voltage Zilla can handle, direct
drive, 9", correct gearing, slicks, properly setup suspension.
How do I make it go faster?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One option is to use the front subframe from a Mini modified for a VTEC. Or
you can build the VTEC frame yourself. Search for Mike Smith and VTEC, he
did a lot of blogging on the subject. If you use a VTEC from subframe, use
a Honda transaxle and not have to deal with the A Series transmission. It
is a fair bit of work.
Also, check the EV Album, there is a Mini pickup floating around eastern
Canada that has been converted. Might even be using lithium.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Compton
Sent: December 19, 2005 12:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Mini Cooper EV weight
Advice on converting a BMC Mini;
DON'T!
It's a nightmare.
The underslung trasmission is a real pain to connect up to.
There's very little room for batteries, or indeed anything else.
Even if the shell is in PERFECT condition, they're not very strong.
Yes, it's been done, but that doesn't mean it's a particularly good idea.
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.compton.vispa.com/the_named
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, would cost a lot less than $62K. But if I shave my pack from 88
pounds to 50 pounds? Guess it isn't worth the cost. Now for the next bike?
300volts at 600 amps? Oh yeaahhhh. Just gotta convince the wife when the
house finally sells that we need to downsize instead of upsize.
BadFishRacing
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: Predictions for the Monster Garage '62 Electric Chevy?
> Darin,
>
> 100 amps at 12 volts is correct. It sort of makes the guy programming
> the batteries nervous when I tell him to allow for 100 amps though.
> Given this, how many does your bike need for 1/8 mile run?
>
> Shawn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BadFishRacing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:32:03 -0500
> Subject: Re: Predictions for the Monster Garage '62 Electric Chevy?
>
> I've tried to calculate the ability of ONE pack, but I guess I'll ask.
>
> If each pack is good for 1200 watts, is that 100amps @12V (sagged down
> from
> 28V)?
>
>
> BadFishRacing
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 6:44 AM
> Subject: Re: Predictions for the Monster Garage '62 Electric Chevy?
>
>
> > John,
> >
> > As I said previously, the packs (as they are configured) are only good
> > for a peak of 1.2kw each x 384 pcs.= 612 Hp.
> > To put it another way 3200 amps at 144 volts total. I believe the
> > cells are capable of more but the configuration we used was never
> > intended to be punished the way we are treating them. When you see
> the
> > show you, and others, will immediately see the weak link in the
> battery
> > system. I base my performance numbers on the above figures because I
> > know them to be attainable, (at least for short bursts).
> >
> > Assuming I can get the cells for my personal use let's try to get to
> > Dennis' numbers.
> > Here's what we know.
> >
> > 384 pc battery pack = 612 peak hp and 1000lbs, (including very heavy
> > interconnects)
> > We strip the cells from their heavy casings and replace connections
> > with more efficient design
> > Revised battery pack = 612 peak hp and 400 lbs
> > OJ 2 chassis with 12 Lemco's and no battery or driver = 750lbs
> > Non beer drinking Driver= 100 lbs
> > Total GVW = 1250 lbs.
> > Peak Wheel HP = 460 hp
> >
> > Now we're getting somewhere.
> >
> > My calculator shows 8 flat is feasible. If I can keep the brush gear
> > from melting, the front end on the ground at least once in a while,
> > etc, etc.....
> >
> > I think it would take the reactor from the Ronald Reagan Aircraft
> > Carrier to get this 62 Chevy as it is into the 8's.
> >
> > Shawn
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: [email protected]
> > Sent: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 21:41:31 -0800
> > Subject: Predictions for the Monster Garage '62 Electric Chevy?
> >
> > Hello to All,
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > >With 2 zillas and the >power to feed them from the lithium pack the
> > 4700lb chevy with all the good >suspension work should run 8.64
> seconds
> > in the qt.mi. at 157mph.I would not >expect this in your 1st run out
> > but after 5-8 passes. These #s come from the VERY >predicitable
> > Speedworld horsepower calc. on their site, but do not include my
> > >multipiler. With that multiplier in the equa.you will run 8.48 in
> the
> > qt.mi. >What a difference a little NITRO makes!!!! Dennis Berube
> > > >
> >
> > Whoa, Dennis' ET predictions for the Monster Garage project Chevy sure
> > seem 'optimistic'! I respect Dennis, he's a great competitor, a
> friend,
> > and quite a character, too! He's still the top dog as far as having
> the
> > quickest electric ET, too. However, as excited I am about the rad one
> > week conversion that friends Rudman and Lawless did, these guys, the
> > ones that helped build the thing, both feel low to mid 13's are more
> > realistic, certainly not 12's....it's too heavy and there's just not
> > enough raw power to get the job done.
> >
> > To investigate Dennis' predictions, I've done some research of my own,
> > and offer the findings as balance to what I feel is a wild prediction
> > of performance I personally, don't think is even close to being
> > correct...no offense is intended. I have tried very hard to keep past
> > predictions of performance as accurate as possible, whether it's my
> own
> > car, or someone else's. As an example, when Matt Graham first
> contacted
> > me more than a year ago about his proposed twin motor electric Nissan
> > 240SX, I predicted it would run easy 14's, and that it could get into
> > the 13s'....he ran a 14.2 first time out. I've been pretty much right
> > on the mark with my car all along, too.
> >
> > OK, here we go.....I plugged in a known performance spec list from my
> > own White Zombie, at three different 1/4 calculator sites. The first
> > one, Simple Horsepower Calculator, is at:
> >
> > http://www.dsm.org/tools/calchp.htm
> >
> > This site has open boxes where you can enter data:
> >
> > (1) Vehicle Weight (including driver weight)
> > (2) 1/4 Mile ET
> > (3) 1/4 Mile Trap Speed
> >
> > I entered my accurate data of 12.151 for the ET and 106.25 for the
> mph,
> > and my estimated data of 2550 lbs. for vehicle (2350 lbs. & 200 lb.
> > driver) weight. Historically, I've been within 50 lbs. on my electric
> > conversion weights. The calculator came up with this:
> >
> > (1) Based on the ET, 281 hp
> > (2) Based on the mph, 239 hp
> >
> > Since drag racing EVs typically have a lower top end speed as does a
> > gasser running the same ET, I tend to lean toward the mph based hp
> > levels.
> >
> > The second site, Horsepower Calculator, is at:
> >
> > http://www.s-series.org/htm/calc/hpcalc.htm
> >
> > This site has open boxes where you can enter data:
> >
> > (1) Known 1/4 mile ET
> > (2) Vehicle Weight (including driver weight)
> > (3) 1/4 Mile MPH
> > (4) 60 ft. Time
> >
> > Note that this site adds a box for the 60 ft. time, which I feel
> really
> > improves the accuracy.
> >
> > I entered the same accurate data of 12.151 for the ET, 106.25 for the
> > mph, and added 1.59 for a 60 ft. time, plus the estimated data of 2550
> > lbs. for vehicle (2350 lbs. & 200 lb. driver) weight. The calculator
> > came up with this:
> >
> > (1) RWHP (rear wheel horsepower) from entered ET of 280.93 hp
> > (2) RWHP from MPH of 238.71 hp
> > (4) Break hp from ET of 337.116 hp
> > (5) Break hp from MPH of 286.452 hp
> >
> > The third calculator site, National Driveline, is at:
> >
> > http://www.nationaldrivetrain.com/calcs/dragcalc.html
> >
> > This site has open boxes where you can enter data:
> >
> > (1) Vehicle Weight (including driver weight)
> > (2) Vehicle hp
> > (3) RPM through the finish line
> > (4) Tire diameter
> >
> > I used the same 2550 lbs. vehicle weight, and since the 239 hp from
> the
> > first site and the 238.71 hp that the second site were pretty much
> > identical, I rounded it to 240 hp, 6900 rpm from our tach data and
> > calculations using the rear end ratio and tire diameter, and 24 inches
> > as the current diameter of the Goodyear Drag Radials (before we burned
> > them down, these were actually 24.3 inch tires). The third performance
> > calculator came up with this:
> >
> > (1) 1/4 Mile ET of 12.23
> > (2) 1/4 Mile Top End Speed of 106.52 mph
> > (3) Ideal Gear Ratio of 4.63
> > (4) 1/8 Mile ET of 7.79 seconds
> >
> > This data is surprisingly accurate. Compare the results to what the
> car
> > actually did:
> >
> > Predicted ET of 12.23....actual ET of 12.151
> > Predicted top end speed of 106.52 mph....actual top end speed of
> 106.25
> > mph
> > Suggested ideal gear ratio of 4.63....actual gear ratio is 4:57
> > Predicted 1/8 mile ET of 7.79 seconds....actual ET of 7.602 mph
> >
> > OK, now that I've demonstrated how accurate the three sites are with a
> > known vehicle's performance, let's now use the first site, Simple
> > Horsepower Calculator, the one that seems to have nailed my car's hp
> > pretty darn well, and see how Dennis' predictions of 8.48 seconds and
> > 157 mph come out:
> >
> > Again, this site has open boxes where you can enter data:
> >
> > (1) Vehicle Weight (including driver weight)
> > (2) 1/4 Mile ET
> > (3) 1/4 Mile Trap Speed
> >
> > I entered the Chevy's 4900 lb. estimated weight (4700 lbs. + 200 lb.
> > driver) and Dennis' 8.48 ET and the 157 mpg figures. The calculator
> > came up with these outrageous results:
> >
> > (1) Based on the ET, 1588 hp!!
> > (2) Based on the mph, 1480 hp!!
> >
> > I'm told the Chevy's incredible battery pack can deliver 3800 amps at
> > around 170 volts, or a whopping 646 kw!
> > Now, though that's a huge amount of delivered power, in the real world
> > of DC motors at BIG amps, a best case scenario is figuring 75%
> > efficiency, so for every hp generated (746 watts) the motors will
> > actually suck 1000 watts....this comes in at 646 hp, tops.
> >
> > OK Dennis, where do you come up with at the least, 1480 hp? Where do
> > you get 157 mph? Where on earth, do you get 8.48 seconds?
> >
> > At the National Drivetrain site, I entered the Chevy's 4900 lb.
> > estimated weight (4700 lbs. + 200 lb. driver) and the more realistic
> > 646 hp figure, plus 5000 rpm and 26 inch tires. The calculator came up
> > with these results:
> >
> > (1) 1/4 Mile ET of 10.98
> > (2) 1/4 Mile Top End Speed of 119.18 mph
> > (3) Ideal Gear Ratio of 3.25
> > (4) 1/8 Mile ET of 7 seconds
> >
> > Note, that if I'm off on the rpm or the tire size, it still doesn't
> > change the ET or the MPH figures. Of course, a scorching 10.98 would
> > make us all proud! However, an 11 second ET is a far cry from a
> > predicted 8.48 seconds! Likewise, the 119 mph is a far cry from the
> > predicted 157 mph! If the battery pack can't actually deliver the full
> > 3800 amps, or if at that level the voltage falls below 170, or if both
> > are on the optimistic side of things, then the actual horsepower will
> > be less. With 3600 amps from twin Zilla 1800 amp controllers and
> > keeping the pack sag to 170 volts, it comes in at 612 kw, and the car
> > would run an 11.17 @ 117 mph. Still killer, but approaching 3 seconds
> > slower and a full 40 mph shy of Dennis' predictions.
> >
> > Dennis, care to correct me on any of this? Did you slip up with your
> > figures, or were you merely using Neutrino logic and cold fusion
> > calculations here?
> >
> > See Ya.....John Wayland
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 12/18/05 4:59:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: MG,
Date: 12/18/05 4:59:32 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Dennis,
I'm being a little more conservative, hoping for low 13's.
Peak power per pack is about 1.2kW x 384 =612 Battery HP.
I don't think we'll get the ok to crank it up to that level though.
The front end is shot on this car and the X-frame chassis is rusted
through something terrible.
Just hitting the accelerator gets it all twisted up.
The only place that is decent is right behind the motor where it was
leaking oil.
It will be a CHALLENGE just to keep it in one pc for a decent run or 2.
Something ironic(albeit fun) about spinning $3000 wheels on a $300
chassis.
I know your not a team guy but you would have enjoyed it.
***Shawn,You are wrong about me being a team player,I have a couple of crack
machinets,2 chassis builders and a few alki/nitro teams that give support
here in Arizona.I just like to choose my own teamates.
Shawn
>>
Again Shawn and Rich great work in such a short time frame.Looking foward to
the results
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul, you'll probably want to be careful with the temperatures. I'm guessing
Sun City, or the Phoenix area? If these are being stored in a garage they can
easily reach 120 degrees in the summer. On my house there is a solar powered
fan that sucks air out of the garage and makes a huge difference. Either way,
just make sure you take in to account temperature compensation and water them
before leaving them for the season.
"Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I was wondering what is the typical
current to float charge 6v golf
cart batteries. My father wants to store his golf cart over the summer,
around 7 months between the time my parents leave AZ to the time they
return. Is float charging a GC battery at 6.6 to 6.7 volts a really bad
idea? It seems like a better idea than letting them sit unattended over
an AZ summer.
Paul "neon" G.
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's been interesting to read people's estimates of how fast the
Monster Garage Chevy will be. It might be even more interesting
to speculate on how FAR it will go before it dies. Will it go for
a quarter mile? Will its rear wheels make it across the starting line?
I'm concerned that the people producing the show might rather have
the car fail in a spectacular way than suceed as an EV.
----- Original Message -----
From: "BadFishRacing" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: Predictions for the Monster Garage '62 Electric Chevy?
Well, would cost a lot less than $62K. But if I shave my pack from 88
pounds to 50 pounds? Guess it isn't worth the cost. Now for the next
bike?
300volts at 600 amps? Oh yeaahhhh. Just gotta convince the wife when the
house finally sells that we need to downsize instead of upsize.
BadFishRacing
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: Predictions for the Monster Garage '62 Electric Chevy?
Darin,
100 amps at 12 volts is correct. It sort of makes the guy programming
the batteries nervous when I tell him to allow for 100 amps though.
Given this, how many does your bike need for 1/8 mile run?
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: BadFishRacing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:32:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Predictions for the Monster Garage '62 Electric Chevy?
I've tried to calculate the ability of ONE pack, but I guess I'll ask.
If each pack is good for 1200 watts, is that 100amps @12V (sagged down
from
28V)?
BadFishRacing
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 6:44 AM
Subject: Re: Predictions for the Monster Garage '62 Electric Chevy?
> John,
>
> As I said previously, the packs (as they are configured) are only good
> for a peak of 1.2kw each x 384 pcs.= 612 Hp.
> To put it another way 3200 amps at 144 volts total. I believe the
> cells are capable of more but the configuration we used was never
> intended to be punished the way we are treating them. When you see
the
> show you, and others, will immediately see the weak link in the
battery
> system. I base my performance numbers on the above figures because I
> know them to be attainable, (at least for short bursts).
>
> Assuming I can get the cells for my personal use let's try to get to
> Dennis' numbers.
> Here's what we know.
>
> 384 pc battery pack = 612 peak hp and 1000lbs, (including very heavy
> interconnects)
> We strip the cells from their heavy casings and replace connections
> with more efficient design
> Revised battery pack = 612 peak hp and 400 lbs
> OJ 2 chassis with 12 Lemco's and no battery or driver = 750lbs
> Non beer drinking Driver= 100 lbs
> Total GVW = 1250 lbs.
> Peak Wheel HP = 460 hp
>
> Now we're getting somewhere.
>
> My calculator shows 8 flat is feasible. If I can keep the brush gear
> from melting, the front end on the ground at least once in a while,
> etc, etc.....
>
> I think it would take the reactor from the Ronald Reagan Aircraft
> Carrier to get this 62 Chevy as it is into the 8's.
>
> Shawn
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 21:41:31 -0800
> Subject: Predictions for the Monster Garage '62 Electric Chevy?
>
> Hello to All,
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >With 2 zillas and the >power to feed them from the lithium pack the
> 4700lb chevy with all the good >suspension work should run 8.64
seconds
> in the qt.mi. at 157mph.I would not >expect this in your 1st run out
> but after 5-8 passes. These #s come from the VERY >predicitable
> Speedworld horsepower calc. on their site, but do not include my
> >multipiler. With that multiplier in the equa.you will run 8.48 in
the
> qt.mi. >What a difference a little NITRO makes!!!! Dennis Berube
> > >
>
> Whoa, Dennis' ET predictions for the Monster Garage project Chevy sure
> seem 'optimistic'! I respect Dennis, he's a great competitor, a
friend,
> and quite a character, too! He's still the top dog as far as having
the
> quickest electric ET, too. However, as excited I am about the rad one
> week conversion that friends Rudman and Lawless did, these guys, the
> ones that helped build the thing, both feel low to mid 13's are more
> realistic, certainly not 12's....it's too heavy and there's just not
> enough raw power to get the job done.
>
> To investigate Dennis' predictions, I've done some research of my own,
> and offer the findings as balance to what I feel is a wild prediction
> of performance I personally, don't think is even close to being
> correct...no offense is intended. I have tried very hard to keep past
> predictions of performance as accurate as possible, whether it's my
own
> car, or someone else's. As an example, when Matt Graham first
contacted
> me more than a year ago about his proposed twin motor electric Nissan
> 240SX, I predicted it would run easy 14's, and that it could get into
> the 13s'....he ran a 14.2 first time out. I've been pretty much right
> on the mark with my car all along, too.
>
> OK, here we go.....I plugged in a known performance spec list from my
> own White Zombie, at three different 1/4 calculator sites. The first
> one, Simple Horsepower Calculator, is at:
>
> http://www.dsm.org/tools/calchp.htm
>
> This site has open boxes where you can enter data:
>
> (1) Vehicle Weight (including driver weight)
> (2) 1/4 Mile ET
> (3) 1/4 Mile Trap Speed
>
> I entered my accurate data of 12.151 for the ET and 106.25 for the
mph,
> and my estimated data of 2550 lbs. for vehicle (2350 lbs. & 200 lb.
> driver) weight. Historically, I've been within 50 lbs. on my electric
> conversion weights. The calculator came up with this:
>
> (1) Based on the ET, 281 hp
> (2) Based on the mph, 239 hp
>
> Since drag racing EVs typically have a lower top end speed as does a
> gasser running the same ET, I tend to lean toward the mph based hp
> levels.
>
> The second site, Horsepower Calculator, is at:
>
> http://www.s-series.org/htm/calc/hpcalc.htm
>
> This site has open boxes where you can enter data:
>
> (1) Known 1/4 mile ET
> (2) Vehicle Weight (including driver weight)
> (3) 1/4 Mile MPH
> (4) 60 ft. Time
>
> Note that this site adds a box for the 60 ft. time, which I feel
really
> improves the accuracy.
>
> I entered the same accurate data of 12.151 for the ET, 106.25 for the
> mph, and added 1.59 for a 60 ft. time, plus the estimated data of 2550
> lbs. for vehicle (2350 lbs. & 200 lb. driver) weight. The calculator
> came up with this:
>
> (1) RWHP (rear wheel horsepower) from entered ET of 280.93 hp
> (2) RWHP from MPH of 238.71 hp
> (4) Break hp from ET of 337.116 hp
> (5) Break hp from MPH of 286.452 hp
>
> The third calculator site, National Driveline, is at:
>
> http://www.nationaldrivetrain.com/calcs/dragcalc.html
>
> This site has open boxes where you can enter data:
>
> (1) Vehicle Weight (including driver weight)
> (2) Vehicle hp
> (3) RPM through the finish line
> (4) Tire diameter
>
> I used the same 2550 lbs. vehicle weight, and since the 239 hp from
the
> first site and the 238.71 hp that the second site were pretty much
> identical, I rounded it to 240 hp, 6900 rpm from our tach data and
> calculations using the rear end ratio and tire diameter, and 24 inches
> as the current diameter of the Goodyear Drag Radials (before we burned
> them down, these were actually 24.3 inch tires). The third performance
> calculator came up with this:
>
> (1) 1/4 Mile ET of 12.23
> (2) 1/4 Mile Top End Speed of 106.52 mph
> (3) Ideal Gear Ratio of 4.63
> (4) 1/8 Mile ET of 7.79 seconds
>
> This data is surprisingly accurate. Compare the results to what the
car
> actually did:
>
> Predicted ET of 12.23....actual ET of 12.151
> Predicted top end speed of 106.52 mph....actual top end speed of
106.25
> mph
> Suggested ideal gear ratio of 4.63....actual gear ratio is 4:57
> Predicted 1/8 mile ET of 7.79 seconds....actual ET of 7.602 mph
>
> OK, now that I've demonstrated how accurate the three sites are with a
> known vehicle's performance, let's now use the first site, Simple
> Horsepower Calculator, the one that seems to have nailed my car's hp
> pretty darn well, and see how Dennis' predictions of 8.48 seconds and
> 157 mph come out:
>
> Again, this site has open boxes where you can enter data:
>
> (1) Vehicle Weight (including driver weight)
> (2) 1/4 Mile ET
> (3) 1/4 Mile Trap Speed
>
> I entered the Chevy's 4900 lb. estimated weight (4700 lbs. + 200 lb.
> driver) and Dennis' 8.48 ET and the 157 mpg figures. The calculator
> came up with these outrageous results:
>
> (1) Based on the ET, 1588 hp!!
> (2) Based on the mph, 1480 hp!!
>
> I'm told the Chevy's incredible battery pack can deliver 3800 amps at
> around 170 volts, or a whopping 646 kw!
> Now, though that's a huge amount of delivered power, in the real world
> of DC motors at BIG amps, a best case scenario is figuring 75%
> efficiency, so for every hp generated (746 watts) the motors will
> actually suck 1000 watts....this comes in at 646 hp, tops.
>
> OK Dennis, where do you come up with at the least, 1480 hp? Where do
> you get 157 mph? Where on earth, do you get 8.48 seconds?
>
> At the National Drivetrain site, I entered the Chevy's 4900 lb.
> estimated weight (4700 lbs. + 200 lb. driver) and the more realistic
> 646 hp figure, plus 5000 rpm and 26 inch tires. The calculator came up
> with these results:
>
> (1) 1/4 Mile ET of 10.98
> (2) 1/4 Mile Top End Speed of 119.18 mph
> (3) Ideal Gear Ratio of 3.25
> (4) 1/8 Mile ET of 7 seconds
>
> Note, that if I'm off on the rpm or the tire size, it still doesn't
> change the ET or the MPH figures. Of course, a scorching 10.98 would
> make us all proud! However, an 11 second ET is a far cry from a
> predicted 8.48 seconds! Likewise, the 119 mph is a far cry from the
> predicted 157 mph! If the battery pack can't actually deliver the full
> 3800 amps, or if at that level the voltage falls below 170, or if both
> are on the optimistic side of things, then the actual horsepower will
> be less. With 3600 amps from twin Zilla 1800 amp controllers and
> keeping the pack sag to 170 volts, it comes in at 612 kw, and the car
> would run an 11.17 @ 117 mph. Still killer, but approaching 3 seconds
> slower and a full 40 mph shy of Dennis' predictions.
>
> Dennis, care to correct me on any of this? Did you slip up with your
> figures, or were you merely using Neutrino logic and cold fusion
> calculations here?
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 12/19/05 7:08:55 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: Predictions for the Monster Garage '62 Electric Chevy?
Date: 12/19/05 7:08:55 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tom Shay)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
It's been interesting to read people's estimates of how fast the
Monster Garage Chevy will be. It might be even more interesting
to speculate on how FAR it will go before it dies. Will it go for
a quarter mile? Will its rear wheels make it across the starting line?
I'm concerned that the people producing the show might rather have
the car fail in a spectacular way than suceed as an EV. >>
**A concern I have talked to Rich about!!! The last MG show goes out with a
bang and flash.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I pulled the wires out of my Currie Fast charger. It's looks like the EV
Warrior charger. 24v Microphone plug. Black wires with one striped white.
Which is positive? I wired it white positive plugged it in real quick no
response so I pulled it out. Quickly. Thanks for any help.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Dec 19, 2005, at 6:32 AM, Bob Rice wrote:
I like a linkage setup that can pull
apart an anderson connecter. It probably zorch it to death in a few
uses?
But it would givya peace of mind.
Lee Hart has posted that Anderson connectors are not supposed to be
opened under load. They have a tendency to weld together as the
contacts slide past each other.
That said, I bought one of these for my car, but not for emergency
disconnects. It's for maintenance. There are two pieces, one for each
connector.
<http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?
id=215&product_id=1841>
<http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?
id=215&product_id=1843>
For peace of mind, I intend to rely on fuses and a circuit breaker.
Seeya
Bob
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
According to the minimania website, the later model classic minis are around
700kg or 1540lbs. The original MK1 is listed as 587kg!
http://www.minimania.com/web/SCatagory/PANELS/DisplayType/Technical%20Information/DisplayID/596/ArticleV.cfm
Monty McGraw
'88 Pontiac Fiero GT EV
'70 GE I-5 Elec-Trak Electric Garden Tractor
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 2:18 PM
> Subject: Mini Cooper EV weight
>
> Are you sure the Mini-Cooper is only 1500 lbs? My Cushman is only 1400
lbs
> but my wife says to keep the goofy Cushman since it's more of a
chick-magnet
> :-)
>
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Monty McGraw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 1:54 AM
> > > Subject: PFC Charger - will it work for a NICAD Mini Cooper EV?
> > > ...
> > >> convert my mini to an EV. Since the car is well under 1500 pounds,
I'm
> > >> thinking of a much smaller battery pack - but better energy density
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >>
> > >> Monty McGraw
> > >> '88 Pontiac Fiero GT EV
> > >> '70 GE I-5 Elec-Trak Electric Garden Tractor
> > >>
> > >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
White stripe usually indicates positive.
Is cord loose from other end too?
Plug charger in and measure voltage...
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 7:32 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Fw: I stepped on my cord and now I don't know the polarity of
my charger
>I pulled the wires out of my Currie Fast charger. It's looks like the EV
>Warrior charger. 24v Microphone plug. Black wires with one striped white.
>Which is positive? I wired it white positive plugged it in real quick no
>response so I pulled it out. Quickly. Thanks for any help.
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> 415-821-3519
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well,
There is a simple way to rely on fuses AND have a safety stop
mechanism, in case the safety DIS-connect is not very feasible
due to high DC voltages involved, the other way to kill an EV
is to short the battery. Blow a fuse. Safety short-circuit.
Personally I do not like this solution, because it is destructive,
but if all else fails, it may be better to have a destructive
(to the fuse, not the switch or battery!) disconnect than none.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Doug Weathers
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 6:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Failure Modes (was Re: Motor control for direct drive
setup)More Stuff.
On Dec 19, 2005, at 6:32 AM, Bob Rice wrote:
> I like a linkage setup that can pull
> apart an anderson connecter. It probably zorch it to death in a few
> uses?
> But it would givya peace of mind.
Lee Hart has posted that Anderson connectors are not supposed to be
opened under load. They have a tendency to weld together as the
contacts slide past each other.
That said, I bought one of these for my car, but not for emergency
disconnects. It's for maintenance. There are two pieces, one for each
connector.
<http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?
id=215&product_id=1841>
<http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?
id=215&product_id=1843>
For peace of mind, I intend to rely on fuses and a circuit breaker.
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>
>
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fowler's law of direct electric drive:
If you have enough torque to break a transmission, you don't need a
transmission.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Robison
> Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2005 6:33 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Viper Torque Correction
>
>
> On Mon, December 19, 2005 9:27 am, John Wayland said:
>
> Thanks for the clarification, John!
>
> When I was looking at manual transmissions some time ago, I
> was dismayed
> to find that the strongest one I could find (that could be
> purchased by
> itself off the shelf) was the 6-speed Borg Warner T-10, rated
> variously at
> 600-650 ft-lbs input torque, with the enhanced unit that DC
> uses in the
> Viper being a bit stronger. I think I confused the Viper
> transmission's
> input rating with the engine's maximum output, and even still
> I may have
> overstated the case.
>
> At any rate, this is what made me realize that my only solid
> transmission
> options are a Powerglide, or a Lenco or similar planetary racing
> transmission, and that therefore the money just isn't there
> to make that a
> part of my initial design. So, for now, direct-drive it is.
>
> --chris
>
>
>
> > Hello to All,
> >
> > While I'm on my 'keeping stats and performance predictions
> accurate as
> > possible' kick, I wanted to correct this, from a bit more
> than a week ago:
> >
> > Chris ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>the 1100+ ft-lbs I'm predicting from this motor at 2000A
> >>-- while impressive versus e.g. a Viper's 700ft-lb V-10 --
> >>
> >
> > The most badass production Viper to date, is the current
> 510 hp version.
> > No way, does it's V10 engine make 700 ft. lbs. of torque.
> It makes a max
> > of 535 ft. lbs. @ 4200 rpm.
> >
> > See Ya....John Wayland
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
