EV Digest 5043
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Madman is back from MG
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Zombie at DragTimes Web Site - voting
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Monster Garage Electric Chevy runs a 14.53 @ 93 mph!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Bella Da Red - what's under the hood????
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Mac tool box
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Mac tool box
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) MG Bakersfield
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: Festiva or Metro
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: If I build it, will it perform? Or, do I need to go with "more power"
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: If I build it, will it perform? Or, do I need to go with "more power"
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Zombie at DragTimes Web Site - voting
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Mac tool box
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Zombie at DragTimes Web Site
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Still needing prof. battery advice. The numbers:
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Still needing prof. battery advice. The numbers:
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
...
Step one is to make the casual builder AWARE that there is a problem.
He's likely to charge into it blind, not knowing (for example) that
transistors fail "on", or that micros "crash". Some will just ignore the
warnings, and proceed anyway. They are the ones that will create buckets
of blown parts, or make new exits in their garage walls. They may still
succeed (and may even have a lot of fun and excitement doing it). But
more likely, they will get discouraged, or hurt, or give up.
Step two is to discuss HOW to avoid these pitfalls. This list is a great
source for this kind of information. In fact, that's what we are doing
in this thread!
You have given me a list of headaches to watch out for... now *that* is
good data (punny!)
I always find myself a bit argumentative when someone tells my the
"what" without the "why". Thanks for filling in the details!
;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
I just want to see if something else besides the seemingly sacred
PWM is a possibility for DC series motors in a traction application.
PWM just means Pulse Width Modulation; i.e. cyclic on/off control rather
than a huge adjustable resistor. PWM isn't the controller itself; the
controller is a "converter" that happens to use PWM as one of its
components.
Look up circuits for "converters" -- you will find that the are dozens,
perhaps hundreds of different ones. Only a few have been used in EVs;
mainly the "buck" converter and 3-phase H-bridge. But many others are
feasible and perhaps even practical. They just haven't been explored
nearly as much.
Yes, I realize what PWM means. Which is actually a specific subset of
cyclic control methods. Modulate the width of the pulse to vary the
average "on" time, thus the average voltage and current. And I didn't
say PWM Controllers, just PWM. And they use PWM as a control method, not
component. I meant it as I said it. I've yet to find a modern
commercially successful DC motor speed controller that does not employ
PWM as it's primary power control method. Definitely none you can buy at
our esteemed EV parts merchants...
Which isn't a bad thing, PWM is an great power control method, used all
over the place. It's just a reason for me to spend time & money on
experimenting with radical alternatives. I've never liked the concept of
"putting all your eggs in one basket", so to speak. IMHO the more
technology branches on the tree, the better in the long run.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yea I am Back...
a Little hacked off... Still amazed at what we did... and that we are all
alive with no burns...
I have to do some reading to catch up on a LOT of threads...
The abuse didn't stop... the MG crew just kept the crap coming.
The West Coast Chopper crew were the fine professionals you would expect.
They deserve a heart felt thanks, they get to straiten out the things the MG
teams don't get right.
We took about 2.5 hours of thier time...We had one of the cleanest builds
they ever had.
The paint guys were under the impossible time limits we were, They got there
at the crack of dawn like we did... And Busted Butt.
If we were not at the paint booth at 6:15 am we would not have had a chance
to remove and charge the Z28 Lions. We got very lucky by getting up early.
That would be Shawn and I.
John was still in the air I don't think he even got any sleep coming in from
Milwaukee.
After we unloaded the Batteries, Shawn had to run and pick up John Zick from
Millwaukee at the airport.
This was all happening on Thursday... the day we were supposed to have the
Car from Dawn To dusk for our EV tune ups and testing... Yea... Right...
At 11:20 am we had all the Z28 Lions charged... and no car to load them
into...
The only reasonable thing to do... was simply get Messed up Drunk.
We did that with Team spirt... 100 flavors of Tequila. At Tequila Jack's
down on the Long Beach water front. 6800 air miles... and No car to work
on.
We got there at 11:32... two minutes after opening... Right on time I would
say.
They take away our one day to clean stuff up....Nice..... Gimme another one.
Sara, the Blonde California Barmaid Goddess... did a real good job of
keeping the EoTH flowing...
I got tossed the Keys at about 3pm... I was dry by 5pm .... Shawn and
John... were... getting sloppy by that time.....
And doing dangerous things with cell phones and Monster Garage phone
lists...
Oh Boy....What fun...
We got out of the Bar at about 5 pm... got back to the motel...where I hear
they had the bar set up ....without the Check in guy's help...
We all had a glass of wine ready to go... then Shawn's cell phone rings...
Hey the cars Ready!! Clearly they knew we were drunk... and in no shape to
drive,
'Cept for one thing...Madman was Still Clean ... I never downed that glass
of wine. Shawn says Great see ya in 10 minutes with the fresh batteries...
I think I could hear the MG guy laughing...when shawn shut his Phone off.
Kill mode on.... We all jumped back into the Sub...thank God Shawn upgraded
the Rental!... we were at MG in about 4 minutes...yea I was driving...
loaded up the 384 Z28 Lions..
And were at West Coast Choppers in about another 2 minutes... Just in time
to see the MG Guy pull out and leave in haste....
What the Heck???
We drove into the Paint booth ....just in time to see the paint guy spraying
the Clear coat on..... That kept us off the car until morning....
Nice here we go again....now we don't even have a late night thrash... The
paint guys have been busting Butt all day. The car is a Sharp Milwaukee Tool
RED with logos and letters. it looks sharp!
Again the folks at West Coast have done the impossible... But now we are out
of time with 900 lbs of Lions in the back of the Sub.....Our only work slot
is from 5 am on Friday to 7:45 amp when it HAS TO BE on the trailer to the
Track.....160 miles up the road.
So..What do we do..... more drink... lets get some real food instead of ...
the liquid kind...Off to Green Banks Brizillian Steak House... more
Margaritas... and more Red meat.
We were back by 10 something to get up at 4:30 to do our best with what time
we had.
This is just Day one down there....
Day two Starts at 4:15 with Shawn and I planning the day in the dark... Not
a LOT of sleep ,just enough...
More later...
MADMAN.
My Redhead is trying to keep me dry on Newyear's Eve.... I really do need to
clense the body... But I am still just a bit to....
Oh you get the idea.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Happy New Year to All,
John Wayland wrote:
You can go directly to the top 100 page here, then click on the one
for White Zombie, this morning now with 152 votes and at # 49 in the
top 100:
http://www.dragtimes.com/top50.php
Keep those votes coming! Those who voted yesterday can vote again
today. Let's send the performance gas car crowd a message that EVs can
be fun and exciting.
White Zombie is now up to 212 votes and is now #32 of the top 100 cars!
Being that it's the end of December, and with the start of this voting
thing just a few days ago, there's no hope for an electric car being the
featured car of the month for January, of course. I've exchanged emails
with the site owner, who informs me that the voting thing is cumulative,
so where ever we leave off as January begins, more votes will continue
to make the Zombie's total rise and rise.
There are two goals to strive for to start off '06. The first shorter
term goal, is to get the Zombie's total more than 344, so that it can
bump the 15th car off the opening page's 'Top Contenders for January'
section (assuming that car won't start climbing any higher), only it
will probably say 'Top Contenders for February' pretty soon. Getting the
votes into the mid 300s will ensure that each time someone goes to this
drag racing web page, they'll see an electric car as a contender for the
February spotlight! That should raise a few eyebrows! The site keeps the
top 15 cars listed in the lower right corner of the opening page.
The second goal, is to get more than 1478 votes to overtake the current
2nd place car, that in theory, will be the top contender for February
after the Corvette at the current count of 1969 votes is awarded the
January spotlight. If we pushed the Zombie to 212 votes in just three
days, it seems this is an achievable goal. If everyone who's taken the
time to vote so far, continues to vote each day in January, we could see
2000+ votes pretty easily.
What's important here, is that once a car has been crowned the 'Featured
Drag Racing Timeslip for the Month of xxxx', it stays immortalized and
goes into the 'Past Featured Drag Racing Timeslips', archived and
viewable here:
http://www.dragtimes.com/featured-drag-racing-timeslips.php
How cool is it, that an EV might be the featured car at a place like
this? We need to continue this fun exercise to get another EV
highlighted for the next month, and so on. With the combined membership
of the EVDL, we 'can' make this happen, especially if list members call
on their non EVer family and friends with on-line computers to vote
every once in a while, too. I called my brother Roger, and as he and I
were on the phone together, watched my computer screen as DragTimes.com
counter for the '72 Datsun 1200 electric car changed from 211 to 212 as
he hit the vote button!
Matt's Nissan 240SX EV is a very exciting machine, and it's a fresh face
on the EV drag racing scene. I predict his dual 9 inch Zilla powered
ride will hit a 13.3-13.4 at the Battery Beach Burnout races in January,
so don't forget to throw votes towards Matt's car, too.
I hear Rod Wilde's Maniac Mazda's low 11 second times are bing submitted
as well. Heck, now that the Madman has the time slips in his hand for
the Monster Garage Chevy (yes, he thought ahead and absconded with
them), that car in all its outrageousness would really be cool to have
as a featured EV, too.
The site owner has already mentioned, that if he gets enough EVs, he'll
start a special EV section...how cool is that?
We can have some real fun with this in the coming new year, and it goes
a long way to show the world how united we EVers can be.
See Ya all next year....John Wayland
Thanks for the votes so far :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nitto 555D on over sized rims.
We needed DOT legal drag tires.
The track was so sticky that I could not walk without loosing my Deck shoes.
It was total amazing how really sticky it was that Guys could NOT hook up.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 6:22 PM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage Electric Chevy runs a 14.53 @ 93 mph!
> What kind of tires did it have?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Widow Maker... was mentioned at various times....
More than 5000 lbs..
Ummm Watch the Show...
I have to leave some stuff for the TV folks to cover...
BEST guess is 3 rd week of Feb '06.
Happy new years East Coast...
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 7:57 PM
Subject: Bella Da Red - what's under the hood????
> Rich, John and crew,
>
> I am very curious as to the specs for your dragster.
>
> >From what I understand from all the postings:
>
> name - bella da red
> donor car - 1962 Chevy
> motor - ??
> controller - ??
> batteries - (384) 28V 3Ahr Lithiums from Milwaukee cordless tools wired
for
> a total of 96 Ahr @ 336V nominal
> tires - Nitto 555D
> gearbox - ??
> contactors - ??
> vehicle weight - 4500lbs
>
>
> inquiring minds want to know!!!
>
>
> thanks
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of John Wayland
> Sent: December 30, 2005 6:16 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Monster Garage Electric Chevy runs a 14.53 @ 93 mph!
>
> Hello to All,
>
> OK, I just got off the phone with a slightly happier Madman. Before I go
on,
> I need to correct an omission. Along with Rich and Milwaukee Power Tool's
> John, our own Shawn Lawless was also part of this latest ordeal....sorry
for
> leaving you out, Shawn, but it's all Rudman's fault...he didn't tell me
you
> were there, too.
>
> OK, here's the scoop. They got 5 runs in. The first run was a bust, as all
> four of the 250 amp circuit breakers let go! The team did a quadruple
bypass
> around the breakers, and the car was ready to run again. 2nd run....the
> tranny slipped out of gear :-( 3rd and 4th runs had severe traction
> problems, this, on a very sticky track! The 5th run was the best, and even
> after burning both rear tires for 200 feet, the 4700 lb. beast ran a
strong
> 14.53 @ 93 mph! The LiIon cordless tool batteries rocked, giving the best
> time after 5 runs without a single recharge! The 426 Hemi? Sadly it ran a
> 13.5 and beat the EV :-(
>
> I'm sure Shawn and Madman will give a much better, more informed report,
but
> the guys wanted me to post something for everyone right away.
>
> Would've been fun to sneak onto the track with a certain little white
Datsun
> I know of...spank, spank Hemi :-)
>
> See Ya....John 'Monster Garage rejectee' Wayland
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey listers...
I got my Mac tool box from Mg...
Anyone want to see the photo... of the large door stop that appeared while I
was gone???
It's 335 lbs and I have to tip it to get my Santa Claus frame into my own
office.
It's 36.7K, and I don't really want to send it to the whole list....
I don't have access to my website from here..
Madman
do I send it to all of us??? or just those interested??
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd be happy to host the picture, as well as any others.
At first I thought you meant it cost $36,700. Now I'm disappointed :-(
Happy New Year! and congratulations on the newfound fame, or whatever
one would call it!
- Arthur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sat, 2005-12-31 at 22:41 -0800, Rich Rudman wrote:
> Hey listers...
>
> I got my Mac tool box from Mg...
>
> Anyone want to see the photo... of the large door stop that appeared while I
> was gone???
> It's 335 lbs and I have to tip it to get my Santa Claus frame into my own
> office.
>
>
> It's 36.7K, and I don't really want to send it to the whole list....
>
> I don't have access to my website from here..
>
> Madman
>
>
> do I send it to all of us??? or just those interested??
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
I'm sure madman will go to the nth degree in his posts but let me just
lay down my final overall impressions from my MG experience.
1. The car is a MONSTER. It is capable of running 5-10 - 13-14 second
1/4 mile runs with ONE charge. The Milwaukee batteries are that good.
They were not the weak point in the build, neither were the amazing
Zilla's. Hat's off to OT and Milwaukee for delivering the mail. We
had a FIRE burning directly beneath the front Zilla 30 seconds before
the last 14.5 run. NO time for cold water. No time to cool the motors.
Jesse wanted full power every run, ( 3600 motor amps, 3000 battery
amps, 240 motor volts was what he got. We came up short of catching
thre Hemi not because of lack of HP, (I think the show will provide
vidence that we actually out powered the nitrous hemi, ( or at least
out torqued it), but by lack of refinement and execution. On one run we
had the hemi by a full second at 330 ft. Unfortunately, the last minute
shifter we could get was for a 3 speed auto not a 2 speed powerglide
and it kicked out of 2nd on Jesse at about 1/8 mile. From then on he
held it in 2nd. We consistently burned the tires 200 ft. Things like
that were limiting factors. I was so busy trying to keep the car
running that I didn't adjust tire pressure like the hemi guys and
achieve better launches each time. I can not tell you how impressed I
am with the consistent performance level of the batteries.
2. The show's production crew ( with the exception of a very few) are
LOSERS. They redeaming factor in this is that they are as of today all
looking for work. The thought of some of them struggling just to eat
makes me feel all warm inside.
3. The guys at West Coast are not only very good but very professional
as well. I would buy a bike from them.
4. It was a very draining experience and one I wouldn't have missed.
5. Personal Highlight was hitting the front motor with the fire
extinguisher and watching it catch fire again during the last run but
still pulling hard. Those GE motors are amazing.
Happy New Year from OHIO
Shawn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.festivamotorsport.com/ This might be of some help if you want to
go Festiva or Aspire. LR........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Letton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 7:51 AM
Subject: Re: Festiva or Metro
Ed-
Did your Metro originally have the 3-cyl engine or the 4-cyl engine? What
year is it?
thanks,
Andrew
Ed Koffeman wrote:
I have a 9" ADC in my Metro. It's right up against the side of the engine
bay, though (bolted to it).
Ed Koffeman
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 3:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Festiva or Metro
If you were converting a "small car" today, would you rather used a late
model Ford Festiva or Geo Metro. I looked at both cars earlier today and
I
believe the Festiva to be a superior conversion candidate. But, I am
interested in
what others have to say, and why other people aren't choosing the
Festiva.
In my opinion, advantages of the Festiva:
There is at least 2.75" more length to fit a motor which opens up a lot
more
options than the 8" ADC.
- You could even easily fit a Warp 9" for some serious
performance.
Battery mounting appears to be easier, especially if you take out the
rear
seat, which is very easy
Currently, you may be able to get a donor car pretty inexpensively
In my opinion, disadvantages of the Festiva:
No off the shelf kit, as far as I know
Few examples to work from
Parts availability - 5 years from now - is questionable
The cars are generally older and more difficult to find in low mileage
Stock brakes seem a little small - from what I could tell from the
disassembled car
I would like to know what others think, and why they decided to go with
the
Metro rather than the Festiva. I think the Festiva with the 9" motor and
14 x
12 V AGM batteries and a 1k Zilla controller locked in 2nd gear would
make
a
great car. I think better than a comparable Metro which would be limited
to a
8" ADC and 12 x 12 V batteries (I've heard space issues). Anyone need to
correct me?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't do the Sam's club batteries. Use US Batteries. Should cost around 60
each. Use the 14 batteries. Put them in the engine bay and make a battery
box for the back of the car in the wheel storage area. The EV1 is bullet
proof. You should have good range and performance with the Festiva. .
Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 8:52 AM
Subject: If I build it, will it perform? Or, do I need to go with "more
power"
I'm considering my options on the "small car" commuter EV that I was
planning
on building. Having owned 3 "poor performing" EVs in the past 6 years, I
don't want to repeat that situation. If if won't perform, I won't build
it. My
goals have been and still are:
1. Good acceleration - 0 - 45 MPH in ~15 sec or less (faster is better!)
2. Speed - Capable of 55 MPH, even though I don't plan to take it over 45
MPH
3. Hill climbing - We have them, and it needs to be able to make it up a
"decent grade" at 35 MPH
4. Range - 15 miles round trip - same route every day 25 - 45 MPH city
traffic. Stop signs about every 0.75 - 1 miles. Actual mileage = 6.2
miles each
way, but 15 miles gives me a buffer for stopping at a store on the way
home.
5. Late model - parts still available for at least the next 5 years.
I already have the following parts:
1. Series wound 7.2" x 15" fork lift motor
2. GE EV-1B controller - 84 V with 1A bypass (I have no idea what the
continuous rating on the controller is, but I am guessing about 150 A). I
wanted to
build my own 144 V / 600 A controller, but I have been talked out of it.
3. Main contactor
4. Other misc parts left over from my other cars
Two options:
First option - "The less expensive car"
1992 Ford Festiva - I actually like the way is looks and low curb weight
manual trans - retain clutch - use 2nd and 3rd gear only
EV-1B controller (150 A cruise, 84 V / 500 A full power for acceleration /
steep hill climbing)
- I realize this controller will reduce battery life because of the 300
Hz SCR switching speed, but maybe I can help it with some caps.
84 V - 14 x 6 V golf cart batteries (Sams Club)
- Dispersed around the car
- 4 in far rear - sunk low through cut out in floor
- 4 center of car behind front seats (remove rear seats) - floor
level
- 2 where front pass seat was - floor level
- 4 in front where radiator was - sunk low
- Not the best batteries, but usable. Maybe I'd spring for some
T-125's.
Charger
- www.northerntool.com, 72 V / 10 A charger + 1 12 V deep cycle 10 A
charger
Modifications
- I didn't plan to modify the suspension or brakes with only 800 lb of
batteries dispersed around the car, sunk low front and rear, I think it
will be
OK with stock suspension and brakes.
Cost (parts only):
$500 - donor car - 1992 Festiva - 130,000 miles - running condition
$200 - batt boxes - home made
$140 - controller + two main disconnect contactors one on the +ve and
one
on the -ve (already have them)
$50 - pot box (used)
$50 - main fuse and contactor drivers + other spare parts (salvage lift
parts)
$160 - motor (I already have it)
$265 - motor coupler and mounting plate - my design - material only -
labor not included
$200 - Charger #1
$40 - Charger #2
$125 - 2/0 welding cable + terminals (I'm not sure about this cost)
$770 - batteries - ~$55 / ea including tax
$65 - aux battery
$2565 Total
-$320 Tax credit (12.5% - 10% State of GA + 2.5% Federal for 2006)
$2245 Net cost
Notes:
- NO DC - DC convertor
- Little to no instrumentation (although I can get current reading off the
EV-1, and voltage off the pack)
With all that said and detailed out, I have several concerns.
1. I don't want to build an "electric jalopy". I've owned 3, and have no
need for another.
2. Is the motor at 7.2" undersized to much?
3. Only 84 V ? Can I meet my acceleration requirements with the EV-1B and
1A
bypass?
4. The charger - really may be too slow to recharge 12 miles of range over
a
12 hour period. It may not work for that reason.
5. Handling if I don't modify the suspension / brakes.
Second Option:
- 1993 Ford Festiva (last year made), Chevy Metro 2 door (last year
made), Honda Civic hatchback (early 90's)
- 9" Warp or ADC
- 14 x 12 V = 168 V Optima batteries
- 1k Zilla controller
- PFC 20 Charger
- DC - DC convertor
- power steering off aux motor
- bower brakes off vac booster
- retain two front seats - remove others
- sink batts low for low CG center, front and rear - that's a lot of
cutting through the floor.
- e-meter with instrumentation
- some type of suspension and handling upgrades dependent on donor car
Projections:
Acceleration - FAST! - And I would look forward to that!
Top Speed - 80+ MPH
Range - >30 miles
Cost - Parts ~$7500 (Please correct me if I am way off)
The question becomes, what direction should I take? One option is to
build
with the 9" motor, but still use the 84 V controller with bypass and 14 x
6 V
batteries and inexpensive charger. Later upgrade if "used parts" become
available.
But, if the first option can give me decent acceleration, it may work just
fine for meeting my original needs. So, my question is: Does anyone have
any
experience using the EV-1 with bypass at 84 V with a 7" x 15", 36 V lift
motor?
It may work just fine. But, if I build it, I'd sure like to be sure it
will
work.
Suggestions?
Thanks,
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't even have the larger battery option with no DC/DC in my Electravan
and have no trouble running lights, wiper, contactor, radio & fan. Just
has to be a bit big. I think my Trojan 12v is around 84ah. Weighs 50 or so
pounds. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: If I build it, will it perform? Or, do I need to go with "more
power"
In either case, ask yourself if the batteries are 1/3
of the weight. Personally, I wouldn't go with
anything under 128V system, but that's just me. I'd
never think of going without a DCDC converter. Once
you've had a fuse blow and been down to just the aux.
battery, you'll know why. Please check out my
website, and look at the costs and info I have posted.
Sincerely,
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm considering my options on the "small car"
commuter EV that I was planning
on building. Having owned 3 "poor performing" EVs
in the past 6 years, I
don't want to repeat that situation. If if won't
perform, I won't build it. My
goals have been and still are:
1. Good acceleration - 0 - 45 MPH in ~15 sec or less
(faster is better!)
2. Speed - Capable of 55 MPH, even though I don't
plan to take it over 45 MPH
3. Hill climbing - We have them, and it needs to be
able to make it up a
"decent grade" at 35 MPH
4. Range - 15 miles round trip - same route every
day 25 - 45 MPH city
traffic. Stop signs about every 0.75 - 1 miles.
Actual mileage = 6.2 miles each
way, but 15 miles gives me a buffer for stopping at
a store on the way home.
5. Late model - parts still available for at least
the next 5 years.
I already have the following parts:
1. Series wound 7.2" x 15" fork lift motor
2. GE EV-1B controller - 84 V with 1A bypass (I have
no idea what the
continuous rating on the controller is, but I am
guessing about 150 A). I wanted to
build my own 144 V / 600 A controller, but I have
been talked out of it.
3. Main contactor
4. Other misc parts left over from my other cars
Two options:
First option - "The less expensive car"
1992 Ford Festiva - I actually like the way is looks
and low curb weight
manual trans - retain clutch - use 2nd and 3rd gear
only
EV-1B controller (150 A cruise, 84 V / 500 A full
power for acceleration /
steep hill climbing)
- I realize this controller will reduce battery
life because of the 300
Hz SCR switching speed, but maybe I can help it with
some caps.
84 V - 14 x 6 V golf cart batteries (Sams Club)
- Dispersed around the car
- 4 in far rear - sunk low through cut out
in floor
- 4 center of car behind front seats (remove
rear seats) - floor level
- 2 where front pass seat was - floor level
- 4 in front where radiator was - sunk low
- Not the best batteries, but usable. Maybe I'd
spring for some T-125's.
Charger
- www.northerntool.com, 72 V / 10 A charger + 1
12 V deep cycle 10 A
charger
Modifications
- I didn't plan to modify the suspension or
brakes with only 800 lb of
batteries dispersed around the car, sunk low front
and rear, I think it will be
OK with stock suspension and brakes.
Cost (parts only):
$500 - donor car - 1992 Festiva - 130,000 miles
- running condition
$200 - batt boxes - home made
$140 - controller + two main disconnect
contactors one on the +ve and one
on the -ve (already have them)
$50 - pot box (used)
$50 - main fuse and contactor drivers + other
spare parts (salvage lift
parts)
$160 - motor (I already have it)
$265 - motor coupler and mounting plate - my
design - material only -
labor not included
$200 - Charger #1
$40 - Charger #2
$125 - 2/0 welding cable + terminals (I'm not
sure about this cost)
$770 - batteries - ~$55 / ea including tax
$65 - aux battery
$2565 Total
-$320 Tax credit (12.5% - 10% State of GA + 2.5%
Federal for 2006)
$2245 Net cost
Notes:
- NO DC - DC convertor
- Little to no instrumentation (although I can get
current reading off the
EV-1, and voltage off the pack)
With all that said and detailed out, I have several
concerns.
1. I don't want to build an "electric jalopy". I've
owned 3, and have no
need for another.
2. Is the motor at 7.2" undersized to much?
3. Only 84 V ? Can I meet my acceleration
requirements with the EV-1B and 1A
bypass?
4. The charger - really may be too slow to recharge
12 miles of range over a
12 hour period. It may not work for that reason.
5. Handling if I don't modify the suspension /
brakes.
Second Option:
- 1993 Ford Festiva (last year made), Chevy
Metro 2 door (last year
made), Honda Civic hatchback (early 90's)
- 9" Warp or ADC
- 14 x 12 V = 168 V Optima batteries
- 1k Zilla controller
- PFC 20 Charger
- DC - DC convertor
- power steering off aux motor
- bower brakes off vac booster
- retain two front seats - remove others
- sink batts low for low CG center, front and
rear - that's a lot of
cutting through the floor.
- e-meter with instrumentation
- some type of suspension and handling upgrades
dependent on donor car
Projections:
Acceleration - FAST! - And I would look forward
to that!
Top Speed - 80+ MPH
Range - >30 miles
Cost - Parts ~$7500 (Please correct me if I am
way off)
The question becomes, what direction should I take?
One option is to build
with the 9" motor, but still use the 84 V controller
with bypass and 14 x 6 V
batteries and inexpensive charger. Later upgrade if
"used parts" become
available.
But, if the first option can give me decent
acceleration, it may work just
fine for meeting my original needs. So, my question
is: Does anyone have any
experience using the EV-1 with bypass at 84 V with a
7" x 15", 36 V lift motor?
It may work just fine. But, if I build it, I'd sure
like to be sure it will
work.
Suggestions?
Thanks,
Steve
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL - Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are happy EV men, i WANT EV drag racing in france !
Stop waiting , let's make it happen !
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 5:40 AM
Subject: Re: Zombie at DragTimes Web Site - voting
> Happy New Year to All,
>
> John Wayland wrote:
>
> >> You can go directly to the top 100 page here, then click on the one
> >> for White Zombie, this morning now with 152 votes and at # 49 in the
> >> top 100:
> >
> >
> > http://www.dragtimes.com/top50.php
> >
> > Keep those votes coming! Those who voted yesterday can vote again
> > today. Let's send the performance gas car crowd a message that EVs can
> > be fun and exciting.
>
> White Zombie is now up to 212 votes and is now #32 of the top 100 cars!
>
> Being that it's the end of December, and with the start of this voting
> thing just a few days ago, there's no hope for an electric car being the
> featured car of the month for January, of course. I've exchanged emails
> with the site owner, who informs me that the voting thing is cumulative,
> so where ever we leave off as January begins, more votes will continue
> to make the Zombie's total rise and rise.
>
> There are two goals to strive for to start off '06. The first shorter
> term goal, is to get the Zombie's total more than 344, so that it can
> bump the 15th car off the opening page's 'Top Contenders for January'
> section (assuming that car won't start climbing any higher), only it
> will probably say 'Top Contenders for February' pretty soon. Getting the
> votes into the mid 300s will ensure that each time someone goes to this
> drag racing web page, they'll see an electric car as a contender for the
> February spotlight! That should raise a few eyebrows! The site keeps the
> top 15 cars listed in the lower right corner of the opening page.
>
> The second goal, is to get more than 1478 votes to overtake the current
> 2nd place car, that in theory, will be the top contender for February
> after the Corvette at the current count of 1969 votes is awarded the
> January spotlight. If we pushed the Zombie to 212 votes in just three
> days, it seems this is an achievable goal. If everyone who's taken the
> time to vote so far, continues to vote each day in January, we could see
> 2000+ votes pretty easily.
>
> What's important here, is that once a car has been crowned the 'Featured
> Drag Racing Timeslip for the Month of xxxx', it stays immortalized and
> goes into the 'Past Featured Drag Racing Timeslips', archived and
> viewable here:
>
> http://www.dragtimes.com/featured-drag-racing-timeslips.php
>
> How cool is it, that an EV might be the featured car at a place like
> this? We need to continue this fun exercise to get another EV
> highlighted for the next month, and so on. With the combined membership
> of the EVDL, we 'can' make this happen, especially if list members call
> on their non EVer family and friends with on-line computers to vote
> every once in a while, too. I called my brother Roger, and as he and I
> were on the phone together, watched my computer screen as DragTimes.com
> counter for the '72 Datsun 1200 electric car changed from 211 to 212 as
> he hit the vote button!
>
> Matt's Nissan 240SX EV is a very exciting machine, and it's a fresh face
> on the EV drag racing scene. I predict his dual 9 inch Zilla powered
> ride will hit a 13.3-13.4 at the Battery Beach Burnout races in January,
> so don't forget to throw votes towards Matt's car, too.
> I hear Rod Wilde's Maniac Mazda's low 11 second times are bing submitted
> as well. Heck, now that the Madman has the time slips in his hand for
> the Monster Garage Chevy (yes, he thought ahead and absconded with
> them), that car in all its outrageousness would really be cool to have
> as a featured EV, too.
>
> The site owner has already mentioned, that if he gets enough EVs, he'll
> start a special EV section...how cool is that?
> We can have some real fun with this in the coming new year, and it goes
> a long way to show the world how united we EVers can be.
>
> See Ya all next year....John Wayland
>
> Thanks for the votes so far :-)
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As shiny than this one ? ;^)
http://i18.ebayimg.com/02/i/05/aa/40/36_3.JPG
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 7:41 AM
Subject: Mac tool box
> Hey listers...
>
> I got my Mac tool box from Mg...
>
> Anyone want to see the photo... of the large door stop that appeared while
I was gone???
> It's 335 lbs and I have to tip it to get my Santa Claus frame into my own
office.
>
>
> It's 36.7K, and I don't really want to send it to the whole list....
>
> I don't have access to my website from here..
>
> Madman
>
>
> do I send it to all of us??? or just those interested??
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't forget to vote ! se message below for direct links
White zombie: 226 votes, position: 29.
240SX Electric: 77 vote, position: 77.
and counting...
:^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 11:04 PM
Subject: Re: Zombie at DragTimes Web Site
> I also made a comment as a response to a comment from someone else. John
> votes have almost doubled since this morning. He is currently at 82 votes.
> We still have a way to go to get him on the front page. To vote for John's
> car go to http://www.dragtimes.com/Datsun-1200-Timeslip-7484.html, to vote
> for Matt's car go to
> http://www.dragtimes.com/Nissan-240SX-Timeslip-7382.html
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 12:02 PM
> Subject: Re: Zombie at DragTimes Web Site
>
>
> >I voted! I also made a comment/question for the gassers who see John's
car
> >(everyone on this list already knows the answer ;^)
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >>From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>Reply-To: [email protected]
> >>To: <[email protected]>
> >>Subject: Re: Zombie at DragTimes Web Site
> >>Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 08:29:28 -0800
> >>
> >>John's "White Zombie" now has 42 votes. 8 more and he will be listed in
> >>the top 100. Come on folks, even if you don't believe in EV drag racing
> >>these are still electric cars and this does increase the awareness of
> >>them. Go here to vote for John's car
> >>http://www.dragtimes.com/Datsun-1200-Timeslip-7484.html and go here to
> >>vote for Matt's Nissan 240SX
> >>http://www.dragtimes.com/Nissan-240SX-Timeslip-7382. We must have more
> >>than 42 EV enthusiasts on this list.
> >>
> >>Roderick Wilde
> >>"Suck Amps EV Racing"
> >>www.suckamps.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>No virus found in this outgoing message.
> >>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >>Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/216 - Release Date:
12/29/2005
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/216 - Release Date:
12/29/2005
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/216 - Release Date: 12/29/2005
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This was taken as the charger stuck at 171.8V, around
14A. (It was fluctuating, hence the "around").
SG readings are on 2nd or 3rd squeeze of the bulb.
Battery Volts SG cell 1 SG cell 2 SG cell 3
SG cell 4
1 9.78 1265 1275 1285
1275
2 9.51 1285 1275
1285 1265
3 9.51 1265 1275
1300 1265
4 9.54 1265 1300
1265 1265
5 9.69 1275 1300
1282 1262
6 9.54 1282 1265
1265 1265
7 9.73 -did not take. Would
suspect same type-
8 9.48 1260 1275
1270 1270
9 9.60 did not take.
For anyone joining my problem, the charger no longer
takes the batteries to 189V per USB specs. (2.587VPC)
I thought I had equalized by upping the voltage
slightly, and holding it there for a couple of hours
repeatedly.
The batteries are 1.3 years old, and by these stats,
have never been properly equalized. My hunch is that
I have serious sulfation, and high internal
resistance.
Even with upping current to C/10, which is 17.8A, hold
it for four hours, all I do is heat up the outside of
the battery cases, and (I'm gathering) get very little
done on the inside. Eventually, the highest battery
drops a bit, and the others get a bit closer. I'm
getting a carbonated soda (gassing) fizz, but not
using much water at all, even after doing this for the
better part of the day.
On the bright side, I may be on the right track,
because the voltages _were_ as much as .4 off between
top and bottom, and as you can see now, they are .3
off
There is another pack of 9 in back, and the voltages
are much closer there; have not taken SGs yet.
Suggestions?
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year.
http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Bob,
What I would do, is to charge the lower voltage batteries with a separate
charger until they are the same voltages as the others. Years ago, my old
batteries that had about 10 years on them would have the same amount of
difference you batteries had.
Today, I used a 6 to 12 volt smart charger that has a digital readout that I
got from Wal Mart so I can match the lower voltage batteries with the highest
voltage ones. I have charge 8 and even 6 volt batteries with a 12 volt charger,
but you have to watch the voltage rise anyway to get a match.
My batteries are now about 4 years old and they are still in with 0.02 volts of
each other. The electrolyte is very clear and they don't bubble much at a 50
amp charge.
It was recommended by my battery company to used the highest ampere-hour
battery that I can get into my EV which are 260 AH for the longest life you
want. The highest charge that a battery can take is 20 percent of the
amp-hour. In my case, this would be 52 amperes. I normally charge from 40 to
50 amperes and still there is very little gassing.
If you only discharge a battery to 80% and charge it to 95%, according to there
graphs, it should go 4000 cycles!!!. This would be 29 years on a battery, but
I think battery age would get to it.
Roland
The reason may, that I been adding a battery additive which you can get by the
gallons from JC Whitney. I add this additive when the batteries where new and
about every 4 years. It dissolves sulfation and prevent sulfation formation.
Another reason, which I was told by my battery company if you want a long
battery life, is not to discharge the batteries below 80%!!! and never charge
it above 95% every day, except about once a month to 100% for equalization.
I normally charge the battery between 75 to 80% because my driving range is
very short. It takes about 4 days of driving to get down to 75%.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Bath<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 7:27 AM
Subject: Still needing prof. battery advice. The numbers:
This was taken as the charger stuck at 171.8V, around
14A. (It was fluctuating, hence the "around").
SG readings are on 2nd or 3rd squeeze of the bulb.
Battery Volts SG cell 1 SG cell 2 SG cell 3
SG cell 4
1 9.78 1265 1275 1285
1275
2 9.51 1285 1275
1285 1265
3 9.51 1265 1275
1300 1265
4 9.54 1265 1300
1265 1265
5 9.69 1275 1300
1282 1262
6 9.54 1282 1265
1265 1265
7 9.73 -did not take. Would
suspect same type-
8 9.48 1260 1275
1270 1270
9 9.60 did not take.
For anyone joining my problem, the charger no longer
takes the batteries to 189V per USB specs. (2.587VPC)
I thought I had equalized by upping the voltage
slightly, and holding it there for a couple of hours
repeatedly.
The batteries are 1.3 years old, and by these stats,
have never been properly equalized. My hunch is that
I have serious sulfation, and high internal
resistance.
Even with upping current to C/10, which is 17.8A, hold
it for four hours, all I do is heat up the outside of
the battery cases, and (I'm gathering) get very little
done on the inside. Eventually, the highest battery
drops a bit, and the others get a bit closer. I'm
getting a carbonated soda (gassing) fizz, but not
using much water at all, even after doing this for the
better part of the day.
On the bright side, I may be on the right track,
because the voltages _were_ as much as .4 off between
top and bottom, and as you can see now, they are .3
off
There is another pack of 9 in back, and the voltages
are much closer there; have not taken SGs yet.
Suggestions?
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html<http://www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html>
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year.
http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/<http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/>
--- End Message ---
