EV Digest 5059
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: White Zombie in 4th place
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: AIR Lab EWS (was Re: battery monitor suggestions)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Otmars new home
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Next-Gen Lead-Acid Firefly Batterie
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Otmars new home
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Electric Indy Racer on eBay
by "Roy Nutter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: White Zombie almost in 4th place
by Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: White Zombie almost in 4th place
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Otmars new home
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: AIR Lab EWS (was Re: battery monitor suggestions)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Interpoles was Reverseing a siamese motor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Interpoles was Reversing a Siamese motor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) EV Gatherings, was Re: Otmars new home
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Geo Metro EV on a budget
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Electric Indy Racer on eBay
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Otmars new home
by Matt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
It will be cool to ask for name modification as only White zombie have
indicated name as an electric car !
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 4:19 PM
Subject: White Zombie in 4th place
> I just voted and pushed "White Zombie" into 4th place. Aaron, you should
> note that you can vote every day for all three electrics. The direct URLs
> are all on the front NEDRA page at www.nedra.com. We now have two
electrics
> in the top fifteen with one in number four. How cool is that folks. Thanks
> again for all your support. The "Maniac Mazda" is in 30th place and moving
> up daily. It would be great if we had three of the top fifteen places.
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 6:48 AM
> Subject: RE: White Zombie almost in 4th place
>
>
> >I could be wrong......> For Rod's Maniac Mazda -
> > "http://www.dragtimes.com/voteprocess.php?slipID=7519";
> >
> >
> > Original Message -----------------------
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Aaron NMLUG-EV
> > Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 9:15 AM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: White Zombie almost in 4th place
> >
> > On Thu, 2006-01-05 at 07:08, Jim Husted wrote:
> >> Hey all
> >>
> >> On second look I believe someone else got to push WZ to 5th but
looking
> > just now Johns just 6 volts out from 4th already. I believe John said
> > yesterday that we have all month to get the guys to first, second, and
> > third. The fun part will come as we determine the pecking order of the
3
> > EV
> > there, LMAO.
> >> Cya
> >> Jim Husted
> >> Hi-Torque Electric
> >>
> >> Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> I voted the White Zombie into tie for 5th. Someone put him over :-)
> >> I'm stoked for you guys. I'm watching the EV's march up by 10's of
> >> votes and the leaders up 1 every once in a while.
> >> When is the cutoff for voting for the February Featured Car of the
Month?
> >
> > I'm giving WZ all my votes.
> > Try to get ONE car of the month into the archive/record section.
> >
> > If they don't change the voting system... I just need to choose who to
> > support in February....
> > --
> > Aaron Birenboim \ I have an inferiority complex,
> > Albuquerque, NM, USA \ but its not a very good one.
> > aaron at birenboim.com \
> > http://aaron.birenboim.com \
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.13/221 - Release Date:
1/4/2006
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.13/221 - Release Date: 1/4/2006
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
> Best way would be 50 wires going to a single node that collects all the
> sensor data and then sends an isolated signal to a dash monitor. This
> is cake.
50 separate wires, all coming to one point, each coming from a high voltage,
nearly unlimited current source... That can be a disaster waiting to happen!
Danny, let us know when you have actually built such a system, and gotten it
to work after a few mistakes during installation, and a few failures on the
road.
As they say, the devil is in the details. I've hooked up such systems a few
time, and believe me, it is a pain in the butt! Batteries don't turn off, so
you're working on a circuit that is "live" all the time. There are so many
parts and so many connections that you're tempted to leave off parts or skimp
on their ratings to save money. But if you do, any little mistake and ZAP
there go your parts! It's in a car; one of the worst operating environments
around. Things that work fine on the bench work terrible when wet, dirty,
hot, cold, or in the presence of many kilowatts of noise.
> Physically separate modules is doable, but it ends up more expensive.
> The PCB is not as dense and the case alone costs a few bucks and always
> requires some form of machining.
"Expensive" in this case is not set so much by the parts themselves; but
rather in the time it takes to install them, find and fix the problems, and
keep them working over a period of time. Something that is simple to install,
idiot proof, and reliable is worth far more than a cheap circuit.
Individual modules are likely to be easier to install, and easier to fix
problems as needed. A failure only affects one battery, so it is obvious
which one is the problem.
Modules pretty much have to be potted or waterproof if you expect them to
survive for long. This could be anything from potted in epoxy to stuck in a
zip-lock baggie.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do Electric cars disappear there? LR.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 5:44 AM
Subject: Re: Otmars new home
--- Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hey Victor, all
I hope no one took offence to the electric triangle statement.
Anyway I meant no disrespect to all you wonderful EV'ers who
live outside the Electric Triangle, Damn it I did it again.
Peace
Jim Husted
Jim
Nothing to appologize for. You guys have got a great thing going out
there, and we all benefit
from it. (Kinda wish I could move West.) By being so close to each other
you feed and support each
other and keep the momentum going. That's why I have a nice Z1k for my
conversion, and I'll bet
dollars to doughnuts my charger will come from out West too. That is, if I
ever get my adapter
plate built...
While we do have a small but enthusiastic EV community in the East (Bob R,
Fortunat, Hump, Chris,
Jerry, etc.), you guys have a big edge for component production. But
Florida may soon counter
balance with EV production of their own. And while I enjoy all the emails
about drag racing in the
Northwest, I also look forward to the ones about cutting grass in the
Southeast. And there's a lot
of EV activity everywhere in between and around the world. Be proud of the
fact that you're taking
part in a good thing. People notice what you guys are doing and appreciate
it.
</sappy rant>
Dave Cover
PS: Keep up the good work. I'm looking forward to the brush timing advance
retrofit kit you
develop. If you could start with one for ADC 9 incher, that would be
great!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is from the ET list. Panasonic has high energy density batteries or
did. I wonder when another company will figure it out and get this to
market. Lawrence Rhodes........
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 01:10:48 -0000
From: "Noel Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Next-Gen Lead-Acid Firefly Batteries
Editors Note: lots of exciting announcements coming from Firefly.
Firefly Energy Expands Board of Directors
Peoria, IL - January 3, 2006 - Firefly Energy Inc.,
(http://www.fireflyenergy.com) formed to create the next generation of lead
acid battery technology based on a material sciences innovation discovered
by Caterpillar Inc., today announced the addition of two new members to its
board of directors. They are Mark Pflederer, vice president with
responsibility for the Technology & Solutions Division and chief technology
officer of Caterpillar and Mak Mirhakimi, general manager for Caterpillar's
OEM Solutions Group.
"It is clear that Mark and Maks' extensive engineering and new product
development experience will be invaluable to Firefly Energy," said Edward F.
Williams, CEO of Firefly Energy. "Both executives have fostered a culture of
excellence within Caterpillar, contributing to this company's industry
leadership position. We look forward to their tenured knowledge enhancing
Firefly Energy's strategies and execution as we bring innovative battery
products to market."
Pflederer and Mirhakimi join six other prominent leaders from industry,
finance and government on the Firefly Energy board.
About Firefly Energy (http://www.fireflyenergy.com)
Firefly Energy Inc. ("Firefly") is in the business to produce and license
advanced lead-acid battery technologies, which hold the opportunity for a
major impact in the $30 billion worldwide battery market. The battery
technology can deliver a combination of high performance and extremely low
weight along with reduced cost using a traditional but non-corrosive
lead-acid chemistry.
Firefly's technology delivers a performance associated with advanced
materials (Nickel Metal Hydride & Lithium) at a cost similar to lead acid
batteries.
The company was launched as a spin-out from Caterpillar
(http://www.cat.com) on May 1, 2003, and is headed by co-founders Edward
Williams (CEO), Mil Ovan (Senior VP), and Kurtis Kelley (Chief Scientist).
Investors include Caterpillar (NYSE: CAT),
BAE Systems
(http://www.baesystems.com)
(London Stock Exchange over the counter symbol: BAESY),
Chicago-area Venture Capital firm KB Partners
(http://www.kbpartners.com),
the State of Illinois' Illinois Finance
Authority, and Electrolux
(http://www.electrolux.com)
(SSE: ELUX-B).
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doug Weathers wrote:
Very cool! When I first started thinking seriously about building an
EV, I had in mind a modular, distributed power system (I'm a computer
network guy too). You might find some mostly incoherent posts from me
on the subject in the archives. For example, here, at the bottom of
the page:
<http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg04460.html>
At the time I didn't know about the BatPack system, or the Tango's
distributed chargers.
I will make sure to peruse that resource. I find that even incoherent
viewpoints can be enlightening at times.
Just some questions.
1) How will this scale? My car has twice that many batteries.
I'm sorry, I seem to have posted the specs of the second prototype (the
in-car one). I have to get the motor mounted and an appropriate
circuit/code safety audit performed before that. The specs of the bench
prototype are as follows:
Speed Controller - same
Power Modules - micro-supervised 4x5A MOSFET/bypass diodes (20A current
limit)
Batteries - 6V sealed lead-acid 8Ah (UPS take-offs)
Subnet Switch - micro-supervised 120V DPDT 50A relay w/50A shunt
Motor - TBD 6-48VDC 50A load (suggestions?)
The scale should be only limited by the bus used - Access.bus is
comfortable with 64, no problem. The Speed Controller has to tell the
devices that are currently on to shut off, then query what the voltage
of each one is, then tell some of them to turn on. As long as there is
enough bandwidth/low enough latency to do that at least 100 times a
second, then there should be no fundamental limit. I'm writing the
software with a 255 (one bytes worth) code limit on the number of Power
Modules.
2) How flexible will it be? Could it for example deal with batteries
of different chemistries and capacities in the same pack? (Seems like
it's just a matter of sofware.)
That is the fun one. Potentially a lot of math there... If they are
different sizes (nominal voltages). The software doesn't really care
about storage depth (capacity), the fundamental nature of it is
adaptiveness. Use a battery until it's off-state voltage hits a lower
threshold. I'm sure the "pick which one" algorithm will need much
refinement as it's gradually put into use. As for the different
chemistries - it's *possible*, if you change the reported voltage to a
rating scale instead. Say 0 = lowest voltage for this battery allowed
and 255 = highest voltage for this battery allowed. Seems like a simple
enough change to push that decision out to the Power Module.
3) How easy would it be to add modular charging to the package?
I have been looking at the charging issue. You actually need to add some
hardware to each Power Module to allow for string charging (charging as
a series), but the big benefit is supervised charging of each battery
individually. Now charging each battery with it's own charger can be a
piece of cake using properly isolated charges.
4) Where can you stick the DC/DC converter?
Hehehe... that is one stumbling block I've been unable to completely
address at this time. When you're foot is off the gas, the pack is
fundamentally unable to generate any current. One way to deal with it is
to use a wide range DC/DC converter (12V - Max Voltage) connected to the
output of the Subnet Switch and depend on the aux battery during
stoplights. Or incorporate an idle function in the Speed Controller
where the pack still generates at least 12V each string with the Subnet
Switch disconnecting the Motor. Then use one DC/DC for each string and
parallel the outputs. That has the benefit of 48V -> 12V DC/DC
converters being cake to find. Or just use one DC/DC for each string
without any idle function and depend on the aux battery as above. Or
just use an Aux Battery by itself. The most ambitious idea is: install
a small 12V isolated switching regulator/converter on each battery and
parallel them together on a "Aux Power Bus". This has the benefit of no
single DC/DC converter to go bad on you, leaving you stranded
http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&productId=217234&pa=217234PS
Is one tough little fully encapsulated isolated converter with great
efficiency, for example. 2"x2.0"x0.6", 25W output, 1000VDC isolation,
10.8V - 13.2V adjustable output, remote ON/OFF, 0.22lbs. Should work nicely.
Any more suggestions?
5) (related question) How about Lee Hart Battery Balancer functionality?
Hmmm... are you sure that you understand the BatPack concept? There is
no real need for a separate discharge balancer functionality. It's
inherent in how the system operates, the batteries should remain
balanced with normal use. Although you could add a couple bits of
silicon and some programming to perform "at-rest" balancing, I would
just use Lee's excellent setup (if they play nice alongside the Power
Modules).
Anyway, I hope your project goes well, and I really hope that it
eventually results in hardware I can buy.
This is for a "public domain" setup... so you could build it. I think it
would be awhile before anyone starts to offer kits (I can only dream, eh?)
Thanks for all the encouragement. There is a thread in the EVForge.net
forums that I'm posting all the schematics and test data to. Feel free
to contribute or criticize ;)
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, they disappear really fast, hehehehe. I think it maybe connected to a
warp phenomenon, parden the pun.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Do Electric cars disappear there? LR.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover"
To:
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 5:44 AM
Subject: Re: Otmars new home
> --- Jim Husted wrote:
>> Hey Victor, all
>>
>> I hope no one took offence to the electric triangle statement.
>> Anyway I meant no disrespect to all you wonderful EV'ers who
>> live outside the Electric Triangle, Damn it I did it again.
>> Peace
>> Jim Husted
>
> Jim
>
> Nothing to appologize for. You guys have got a great thing going out
> there, and we all benefit
> from it. (Kinda wish I could move West.) By being so close to each other
> you feed and support each
> other and keep the momentum going. That's why I have a nice Z1k for my
> conversion, and I'll bet
> dollars to doughnuts my charger will come from out West too. That is, if I
> ever get my adapter
> plate built...
>
> While we do have a small but enthusiastic EV community in the East (Bob R,
> Fortunat, Hump, Chris,
> Jerry, etc.), you guys have a big edge for component production. But
> Florida may soon counter
> balance with EV production of their own. And while I enjoy all the emails
> about drag racing in the
> Northwest, I also look forward to the ones about cutting grass in the
> Southeast. And there's a lot
> of EV activity everywhere in between and around the world. Be proud of the
> fact that you're taking
> part in a good thing. People notice what you guys are doing and appreciate
> it.
>
>
>
> Dave Cover
>
> PS: Keep up the good work. I'm looking forward to the brush timing advance
> retrofit kit you
> develop. If you could start with one for ADC 9 incher, that would be
> great!
>
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays,
whatever.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The BattPack will create much stronger charge balance issues by my
understanding
If one pack is sagging after 50 AH consumed, and decide to favor another
pack- which appears to be the whole principle of the BattPack strategy-
then say we pull 60 AH off the other batteries. OK, what now? If that
battery sagged because it wasn't fully charged to start with for
whatever reason you're ok, but the more likely case is it's aged and has
a reduction in overall capacity. Or it was located in a cold spot on
the vehicle or its terminals were not up to snuff. In these cases
giving it 60 AH is an overcharge. The BattPack schematic showed no way
to switch batteries on and off of a string when charging, only
discharging. So the options are to overcharge the sagger by 10 AH or
undercharge the rest of the whole string by 10 AH.
Danny
Stefan T. Peters wrote:
5) (related question) How about Lee Hart Battery Balancer functionality?
Hmmm... are you sure that you understand the BatPack concept? There is
no real need for a separate discharge balancer functionality. It's
inherent in how the system operates, the batteries should remain
balanced with normal use. Although you could add a couple bits of
silicon and some programming to perform "at-rest" balancing, I would
just use Lee's excellent setup (if they play nice alongside the Power
Modules).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is DEFINITELY NOT a Formula lightning. This would not come close
to passing the rules for FL.
...Roy Nutter
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Date: 1/4/06 6:51PM
Subject: RE: Electric Indy Racer on eBay
This looks very much like the formula lightening racers built at the
Universities. Although a quick search for a racer marked "Apex" did
not
turn up anything.
Maybe check out the "formula lightening" projects to see what transaxle
they
use.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: January 4, 2006 2:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Electric Indy Racer on eBay
Bet I could get a tag in TN :-)
Anyone have any idea what kind of transaxle they used? That looks like
it
could be useful on other cars.
On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 13:46:05 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Can't make it street legal, I suppose...
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=460128382
>8
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of
little
minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roy S. Nutter, Jr. , Professor
West Virginia University
933 Engineering Sciences Bld
POB 6109, Lane Dept of CSEE
Morgantown, WV 26506-6109
Tel: (304)-293-0405 x2510
Fax: (304)- 293-8602
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> The fun part will come as we determine the pecking order of the 3
>> EV there, LMAO.
> Try to get ONE car of the month into the archive/record section.
Do they do this EVery month?
Maybe we can try to get a different EV into the top 5 EVery month?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Aaron NMLUG-EV wrote:
I'm giving WZ all my votes.
Try to get ONE car of the month into the archive/record section.
You can vote once per car per day per IP... so go ahead and vote for all!
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Husted wrote:
> I've had the pleasure of meeting and working with some of the most
> awesome people this year... excited about Otmar being closer as I
> believe his insight will have direct effect to improvements. Wayland's
> input speaks for itself. In fact I'd like to get everyone together
> here do some BBQ and brainstorm about EV's.
That's how I feel about this EV list. Without it, we'd be a bunch of isolated
nuts tinkering in our garages. No matter how brilliant and talented a person
is in one area, there are other areas where he is totally ignorant and
incompetent.
Building a successful vehicle requires that you get it "right" in *many*
different areas at once. It has to be fast AND look good AND be reliable AND
have good range AND be efficient AND be affordable. Otherwise, you'll be
viewed as a "failure" by those around you. Working by yourself, you'll never
find all the problems or their solutions, and won't get any support from
those around you, Eventually, you're likely to get discouraged and give up.
But when you can connect with other EVers, you have a "support group". We can
help each other for mutual benefit. What I don't know, someone else does.
What I can't do, someone else can. What I can't afford, someone else can sell
me used. We *all* get better!
At some point, I hope we can start having an EV "convention", where ordinary
people can get together. Something like the EAA (Experimental Aircraft
Association) "fly in" in Oshkosh WI every year, where home aircraft builders
get together to show off, trade parts, run training seminars, etc.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
> *nod* I should try optoisolators. The problem though is my solution used
> a single bi-color LED that would go red-off-green-yellow based on
> battery voltage (10.8 red, 14.7 green, 15.6 yellow).
I believe I posted a version of that circuit that used two optocouplers per
battery in place of the red/gree LEDs. The isolated outputs of these
optocouplers were then routed back to your dashboard display.
To cut down the wiring tangle, it used a row-column matrix. For 32 batteries,
you'd have 64 optocouplers; these would be wired in an 8x8 matrix, so a
16-wire flat cable would go to each battery monitor. Jumpers at each battery
monitor determined which row and column it was in.
> I might be mis-understood, I was thinking a cost of a 50 battery monitor
> with all frobs to be $500-$1,000.
For things like the Badicheq, Zivan Smoother, Powercheq, Rudman Regulator,
et.al. it works out to be about this expensive (or more)! My Battery Balancer
has a Control board that costs about $500 and covers up to 80 batteries. It
works with a Relay board (each one supports 8 batteries) that is about $10
per battery.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Husted wrote:
> Thank you for that understandable description.
You're welcome. Glad it helped!
> the Allis Chalmers motor has larger interpoles in the ¼ size to main coil
> range you describe. Does this produce the highest level of self-adjustment?
For "perfect" cancellation, you'd distribute the interpole winding over the
entire field circumference. These become pole face windings where you have a
field pole, and interpoles where you don't have a field pole (in the space
between poles). But this level of perfection is complicated and expensive to
build. You'll only see it where cost is no object, and performance is all
that matters.
> The main coils are wound series, well actually all large motors I see are
> field wound series. Could one re-plumb the coils to series / parallel on
> an interpoled motor for a higher RPM output if low end torque was already
> more than needed?
Mostly, they wire all the fields in series because this guarantees the same
current in all windings, thus the same field strengths. If you parallel them,
you have to be sure your connections are solid and low enough in resistance
so the current divides equally between coils. This can be hard to do with
external wiring an contactors.
> Another feature the Allis Chalmers has is the laminations and slots on
> the armature body are slanted. I was told this is for a smoother rev-up.
> What is the true reason they do this?
If the laminations are all lined up in a stack, there are slight torque
pulsations as the rotor advances from one "bump" to the next. There are still
dozens of "bumps" per rotation, so the torque is pretty smooth anyway. But if
you are trying to make the motor as quiet and smooth-running as possible,
they skew the laminations by one slot width from end-to-end to eliminate this
effect.
> How do you think this will serve in a racer?
I don't think they would notice it at all.
> You stated that the increase of bars between brushes allows for a higher
> current to pass without arcing
No; the number of bars between brushes limits the *voltage* the motor can
stand. You need more bars to get to higher voltages.
> Better put, what is the con to adding bars to a comm?
More bars makes each one smaller, thus lowering the current rating. Fewer bars
allows more current, but lowers the maximum voltage rating. So there's the
old tradeoff; do you want high voltage or high current?
The number of bars is also related to the number of turns needed for the
desired voltage and current. It's simpler to build the armature if the number
of slots = turns = commutator bars. That way you have exactly one wire per
slot, and one pair of wires connect to each bar. But the voltage you're after
might dictate multiple turns per slot, or push you towards some other number
of commutator bars.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Doug Weathers wrote:
> What feature of the ADC motor makes negative brush advance (brush
> retarding) not feasible?
I think it is because the optimal brush position moves *a lot* in an ADC
motor. Probably something they did in the design to simplify construction.
> Can Jim fix it?
Don't know until someone tries! :-)
> I've been musing over ways to mechanically vary the brush timing on my
> own motor in concert with the accelerator pedal. Perhaps if I can get
> this working we can compare it to an interpole system.
Given a motor that wasn't designed for interpoles or adjustable brushes, it's
probably easier to retrofit adjustable brush rigging.
Look at some of the old 1900's motor designs that had adjustable brushes. An
automatic system would be the best, because the driver is going to be too
busy, or lack the knowledge of where it should be positioned.
One that strikes me as reasonably retrofittable involved adding an extra pair
of small "pilot" brushes at the leading and trailing edges of a main brush.
Basically, these are just tiny brushes, touching the commutator bar that is
just about to reach the main brush. If the brushes are properly positioned,
the voltage between the pilot brushes should be zero.
The pilot brushes were connected to a little low-voltage PM motor. This motor
drove a screw thread to move the main brushholder. If the pilot voltage was
positive, the little motor ran one way, retarding the brushholder. If the
pilot voltage is negative, the little motor ran the opposite direction, to
advance the brushholder. Thus, it automatically positioned the brushholder
for minimum voltage.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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On Thu, January 5, 2006 1:35 pm, Lee Hart said:
> At some point, I hope we can start having an EV "convention", where
> ordinary
> people can get together. Something like the EAA (Experimental Aircraft
> Association) "fly in" in Oshkosh WI every year, where home aircraft
> builders
> get together to show off, trade parts, run training seminars, etc.
I think the closest thing we have to this right now is the annual EAA
(Electric Auto Association) Chapters Conference.
In 2005, we (AustinEV) hosted the 4th annual conference, with a car show
(the Texas Plug-In) in northern San Antonio, which was the first time to
my knowledge that all the chapters in Texas have gotten together in a
single event. The consensus at the time was that the show should be an
annual thing, and while I've fallen behind in my efforts to get running
with that torch again for 2006, it was a groundbreaking occasion to get
everybody together, as we also recognized we had sufficient interest to
form a new San Antonio chapter.
On Sunday of that weekend we held talks at the Austin Energy building,
where attendees got to hear before anyone else the plans that Austin
Energy unveiled publically in August, about spearheading a campaign to
build a large purchase order for plug-in hybrid cars. We had speakers
including Chelsea Sexton and Bryan Woodbury.
I definitely plan on going to the 2006 chapters conference, hosted in the
Chicago area by Fox Valley EAA. These conferences may not be quite at the
level you're familiar with that other EAA :o) but I think it makes for
worthwhile travel plans nonetheless.
--chris
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--- Begin Message ---
My family has always tolerated my EVs as a harmless eccentricity. "Fine for a
nut like him, but I don't want no weirdo car."
Well, the times they are a-changin'. Over Christmas, one of my relatives said
"I got a dead 1994 Geo Metro in the garage. I'm sick and tired of $3 gasoline
and wars and ICE stuff that breaks that I can't fix. How do I convert it into
an EV?"
I gave him an outline of what was required, figuring that would scare him off.
I gave him some websites to look at, prices for the parts, and the amount of
work it would take to see if he was serious.
He called back today. He looked at the websites, but is a high-school dropout
and considers anything that smacks of reading as torture. He's your classic
Joe Sixpack; he doesn't mind spending time on it but wants to keep the budget
under $1000.
He lives 20 miles from work, and can probably charge there. He asked the guys
that maintain the forklifts, and they thought it was a great idea; something
they'd always wanted to try. They gave him a 48v traction motor. He knows my
first EV was a low-budget special that used a dozen golf cart batteries, 24v
aircraft generator, contactor controller, and homemade charger; so he's out
to do something like that.
Unfortunately, he lives 500 miles away in southwestern Michigan, so I'll have
to assist by remote control. Can we come up with the parts and design so he
(or anyone else for that matter) can throw together a quick-and-simple EV
conversion that a beginner can build and get working?
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Roy, pray tell... why?
Inquiring minds like to learn!
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roy Nutter
Sent: January 5, 2006 12:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Electric Indy Racer on eBay
This is DEFINITELY NOT a Formula lightning. This would not come close to
passing the rules for FL.
...Roy Nutter
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Date: 1/4/06 6:51PM
Subject: RE: Electric Indy Racer on eBay
This looks very much like the formula lightening racers built at the
Universities. Although a quick search for a racer marked "Apex" did not
turn up anything.
Maybe check out the "formula lightening" projects to see what transaxle they
use.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: January 4, 2006 2:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Electric Indy Racer on eBay
Bet I could get a tag in TN :-)
Anyone have any idea what kind of transaxle they used? That looks like it
could be useful on other cars.
On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 13:46:05 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Can't make it street legal, I suppose...
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=460128382
>8
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little
minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Roy S. Nutter, Jr. , Professor
West Virginia University
933 Engineering Sciences Bld
POB 6109, Lane Dept of CSEE
Morgantown, WV 26506-6109
Tel: (304)-293-0405 x2510
Fax: (304)- 293-8602
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
The BattPack will create much stronger charge balance issues by my
understanding
If one pack is sagging after 50 AH consumed, and decide to favor
another pack- which appears to be the whole principle of the BattPack
strategy- then say we pull 60 AH off the other batteries. OK, what
now? If that battery sagged because it wasn't fully charged to start
with for whatever reason you're ok, but the more likely case is it's
aged and has a reduction in overall capacity. Or it was located in a
cold spot on the vehicle or its terminals were not up to snuff. In
these cases giving it 60 AH is an overcharge. The BattPack schematic
showed no way to switch batteries on and off of a string when
charging, only discharging. So the options are to overcharge the
sagger by 10 AH or undercharge the rest of the whole string by 10 AH.
Danny
This relates to the "how are we going to charge this setup" question.
You could just walk around the issue entirely and charge each battery
with an individual isolated charger (like a Soniel 7A or 10A). This does
allow for mixing different chemistries (just use an appropriate charger
for each battery) rather easily. We don't have to worry about the
single-charger-failed-and-battery-reverses-under-load problem, and the
Speed Controller could throw a "check charger/battery warning" next time
you drive it because it can't use a particular battery (not
charged/failed). Or you could also have a Power Module start beeping if
the charger isn't working. BTW, this is how I'll be testing the bench setup.
I'm not sure how a BatPack-type setup will work under a string charging
situation, or the modifications (if any) to allow it to switch batteries
in/out while charging... I'm a code guy, not an electronics guy, sorry.
Anybody with some ideas?
--
Stefan T. Peters
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Well one thing to bring up is that the MOSFET switch has an internal
diode. For example if you hook up the charger to the string but leave
the MOSFET gates off, the transistors will still conduct as per a
diode. This will be bad since the transistor is probably only sunk to
dissipate the heat of a low impedance switch, not a 0.7v-1v drop. So
the gates must be on for charging if the current goes through them to
get to the battery (a parallel charger may not have this liability). It
is impossible for the battery to be switched out of series during
charging with the diode where it is. It would take I think 3
transistors to switch it out of the string if I drew it correctly. The
existing transistor would have to be changed for 2 back-to-back ones so
the intrinsic diodes can't conduct in either direction if the gates are
off. The diode would need to be replaced with a transistor. Putting a
diode in parallel with the MOSFET's internal diode may be a problem as
well (long story), and using the internal diode of the MOSFET in place
of the diode may also present problems (also a long story). So it might
even be necessary to replace the diode with another 2 MOSFETs. As you
can see this is pretty complicated! That's just my original look at the
situation anyways.
Danny
Stefan T. Peters wrote:
I'm not sure how a BatPack-type setup will work under a string
charging situation, or the modifications (if any) to allow it to
switch batteries in/out while charging... I'm a code guy, not an
electronics guy, sorry. Anybody with some ideas?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
The BattPack will create much stronger charge balance issues by my
understanding
If one pack is sagging after 50 AH consumed, and decide to favor
another pack- which appears to be the whole principle of the BattPack
strategy- then say we pull 60 AH off the other batteries. OK, what
now? If that battery sagged because it wasn't fully charged to start
with for whatever reason you're ok, but the more likely case is it's
aged and has a reduction in overall capacity. Or it was located in a
cold spot on the vehicle or its terminals were not up to snuff. In
these cases giving it 60 AH is an overcharge. The BattPack schematic
showed no way to switch batteries on and off of a string when
charging, only discharging. So the options are to overcharge the
sagger by 10 AH or undercharge the rest of the whole string by 10 AH.
Danny
Sorry for the double reply, but an additional point came to mind. One
reason why I like this general idea so much is that it's modular. Anyone
could design their own Power Module, or Speed Controller, or Subnet
Switch with differing capabilities/features. A 6-18V/400A/MOSFET-based
basic one, and a 12-24V/600A/whatever-based one with charge balancing,
and even a 2-7V/50A one just for L-ion/poly batteries. You could even
mix-and-match them (to a degree). So a person performing an EV
conversion could pick whatever parts (from various kits/retailers,
likely based on $$$) and have only the level of functionality that they
need.
Sounds perfect for the "open-source" EV setup, eh?
--
Stefan T. Peters
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--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
... So it might even be necessary to replace the diode with another 2
MOSFETs. As you can see this is pretty complicated! That's just my
original look at the situation anyways.
I started down that road with my research, and when I got to the "gee,
it sure seems complicated" phase, I decided to use separate chargers and
concentrate on getting a working Power Network running without series
charge capabilities. I'll leave that (modification or redesign) up to
others much more capable then I. This is an "open-source" project, and
since I will post the full schematics and code of a working prototype,
feel free to use/contribute as you see fit ;)
--
Stefan T. Peters
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--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:35:37 -0500, you wrote:
Speaking of an isolated nut tinkering in my garage. This seems to
be the perfect post for my introduction. NEWBY ALERT! My name is
Matt Milliron, I live in Lubbock Texas. I just bought a 1981 Jet
Electrica that has been garaged for 17 years. I promise to ask a LOT
of really basic questions. As far as I know I am it in Lubbock. I am
all ready talking to someone about an S-10 for my next, modern EV.
Thank you in advance.
>
>That's how I feel about this EV list. Without it, we'd be a bunch of isolated
>nuts tinkering in our garages. No matter how brilliant and talented a person
>is in one area, there are other areas where he is totally ignorant and
>incompetent.
>
>Building a successful vehicle requires that you get it "right" in *many*
>different areas at once. It has to be fast AND look good AND be reliable AND
>have good range AND be efficient AND be affordable. Otherwise, you'll be
>viewed as a "failure" by those around you. Working by yourself, you'll never
>find all the problems or their solutions, and won't get any support from
>those around you, Eventually, you're likely to get discouraged and give up.
>
>But when you can connect with other EVers, you have a "support group". We can
>help each other for mutual benefit. What I don't know, someone else does.
>What I can't do, someone else can. What I can't afford, someone else can sell
>me used. We *all* get better!
>
>At some point, I hope we can start having an EV "convention", where ordinary
>people can get together. Something like the EAA (Experimental Aircraft
>Association) "fly in" in Oshkosh WI every year, where home aircraft builders
>get together to show off, trade parts, run training seminars, etc.
--- End Message ---
