EV Digest 5066
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Federal EV tax credit
by "Don B. Davidson III" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Peukert effect - clarification wanted
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Votes
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Neg supply for E-meter
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Making progress! RE: battery advice.
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Neg supply for E-meter
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Making progress! RE: battery advice.
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Fw: Geo Metro EV on a budget
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) False alarm! RE: battery advice.
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Why is it ramping back voltage before cutback point?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Breaking in ADC Motor
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: New to the group
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
Supercaps (aerogel, usually) are high capacity but poor ESR. Ultracaps
(Maxwell, but there are some other types) are phenomenally low ESR,
orders of magnitude lower than other technology. The [EMAIL PROTECTED] one is
0.0016 ohm at 1KHz.
http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/products/large_cell.html
50A is hardly trivial! Just browsing the Digikey catalog you've got the
big screw terminal computer caps and those are giving figures like 10A
max ripple. Not that 50 amps is not achievable but it may be out of the
design range of a stereo cap which only really delivers surges a few
times a minute. Caps can actually be overheated by simple ESR heating.
Simple wear may manifest itself as a higher ESR, which in this app would
probably just mean the cap stops absorbing the current surges.
Danny
Stefan Peters wrote:
Those Maxwell's are sweet, (58F!) but they can have a rather high ESR.
I only need 12V, am going to give a couple of those "audio
application" caps a whirl. Those are supposed to have a very low ESR,
and made for the 100Hz constant pulsing usage (think of all that bass,
and some guys are pushing almost 10kW from a couple of those buggers
for years). The good ones (competition rated) usually run $100-$150
each. You can get no-names for under $50 (good for testing).
Given that I will be pulsing only 50A per battery to get 100A @ 48V
motor current with a 96V pack at half throttle (which is where most of
my driving is, and the same stress any PWM controller will dish out in
the same situation), I'm not sure that they will be needed. Only
on-road testing will tell just how much time is spent in that area of
heavy-current-per-battery, relatively inefficient low PAM output. But
I'll install caps on one of the two strings anyway, just to see what
difference it makes.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
Supercaps (aerogel, usually) are high capacity but poor ESR.
Ultracaps (Maxwell, but there are some other types) are phenomenally
low ESR, orders of magnitude lower than other technology. The
[EMAIL PROTECTED] one is 0.0016 ohm at 1KHz.
http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/products/large_cell.html
Virtually all of the "audio grade" caps are < 0.0016 ohms, but we are
talking about 1-5F, not 350F. The capacitance might be too low, though.
I guess the real question becomes whether it's worth the $150 for me to
test 'em. That almost buys me two more Trojan 105s! That might be the
better miles-per-buck decision given what I make a note of below:
50A is hardly trivial!
I meant that I might not need caps given that I will be pulling 50A per
battery on a 96V pack when delivering 100A @48V to the motor, which is
what a standard controller does. Not that smoothing 50A is easy. The
caps will only make any difference when the PAM (voltage step) is low
(12V, 24V, and maybe right after the switchover at 60V and 72V, but you
usually don't draw a lot of current at those voltages anyways)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm following this line of thought with great interest.
Last fall I "inherited" from my father's estate two EV's
One is a Bradley GT Electric with 100 miles on the odometer, assembled in
1983-never registered. The other, a 1980 Jet Electravan-registered in
Florida and used quite extensively over the years-with 35,000 miles on the
odometer.. I reside in New York State. What, if any, tax incentives might I
look for with these vehicles? When I eventually register either of them in
NY State, I am curious how I will be charged for registration as I won't be
paying the gas tax at the pump.. NY State charges registration via weight of
vehicle, so this will help me decide on the number and type of batteries
used.
Don Davidson
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 1:44 AM
Subject: RE: Federal EV tax credit
> On 6 Jan 2006 at 19:50, Mueller, Craig M wrote:
>
> > It sounds like you have to get a new car from a mfg without the ICE
> > installed, trailer it home and commence with the conversion.
>
> I'm hardly an expert on this, so I encourage anyone who's done it to post.
> However, from what I've read, insisting on a new glider pretty seriously
> limits your candidates. Large auto companies have all the sales they need
> or want and aren't interested in dealing even with small conversion
> companies, much less with individuals. These days you pretty much can't
> even buy an ICE car with accessories a la carte the way you used to; now
you
> get to choose from among 3 or 4 packages. Given that, it's hard to see
how
> you could get them to make the engine and gas tank optional.
>
> >From what I've read, in the few cases in which automakers have supplied
> gliders, they've applied standards and requirements similar to those they
> use in dealing with other upfitters, such as van conversion operations and
> truck and RV builders. It took years of Force production before Solectria
> could convince GM to sell them Metro gliders - and then the US-spec Metro
> went out of production a few years later. By that time Solectria's sales
> had been killed by (from what I've heard) the cat-and-mouse games of GM
and
> Ford. Fleet and utility buyers stopped buying Forces, believing they
could
> get major-brand-supported EVs from the big guys instead.
>
> There've been a few cases in which small-scale conversion operations have
> been able to buy gliders, but AFAIK always from smaller auto companies.
US
> Electricar of Athol MA reportedly bought gliders from Renault and Fiat in
> the late 1970s and early 1980s. More recently (maybe 10-15 years ago)
> someone out west was able to import gliders from a car company in one of
the
> Eastern European countries (I don't recall which one) which had no US
> presence and no dealers. Seems to me that Gary Flo (then) of Innevations
> may have been involved with this, but my memory might be playing tricks on
> me. Was anybody here connected with this deal?
>
> Imagine the spares headache with a car never sold in the states! (If
you've
> ever owned a Jet van you don't have to tax your imagination very hard. ;-)
> The other problem with this is that cars not currently being imported as
> ICEs usually don't meet NHTSA standards.
>
> Still, you might be able to do something similar. I suspect you'd have to
> fib about your intentions, suggesting that you intended to go into serial
> production and wanted to buy one glider as a prototype. Again, I stress
> that I'm hardly an expert on this, but I suppose you might try (again)
auto
> manufacturers in the Eastern European countries, Russia, China, and
perhaps
> Thailand and Korea. Be prepared to spend a lot of money on overseas phone
> calls, airplane tickets, and possibly translators and negotiators.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger and other experts, could you clarify this?
Roger Stockton wrote:
When the battery is being discharged there are strong electromotive
forces present to force the ions in the electrolyte to move in a given
direction, but when it is resting there are much weaker forces available
to move the ions around into a more uniform distribution.
...
In any event, we may debate the exact mechanism at work, but the
undebatable end result is already well-established by EVers in the 70's
and 80's: a low-frequency controller that subjects the batteries to high
current discharge pulses results in greatly reduced capacity (precisely
as predicted by Peukert) and reduced cycle life compared to a
high-frequency controller (with bus caps) that subjects the batteries to
the average current instead.
Cheers,
Roger.
This brings the question about Ah counter calibration routines I'm
implementing.
To do it as accurately as possible I need to understand this, may be
someone had practical experience.
Hypothetical example: one has 100Ah battery (20h rate).
1. With constant, say, 100A draw you got, say, 70Ah capacity before
voltage *under load resulting this 100A draw* falls to commonly accepted
limit of 10.5V for 12V battery.
2. With heavier load, say, 150A you have, say 60Ah capacity, again,
before the voltage drops to 10.5V under that new load.
Question 1: if at "100%DOD" you release throttle in case 2 to
lower draw from 150A to 100A, the voltage will raise from 10.5V
to some higher value allowing to drive some more.
Will that "some more" equal exactly additional 10Ah so you end up
with the same 70Ah out of the battery (yes, while covering
less miles, but this isn't the question).
Another question I can't quite figure out answer for:
Take case 1 above, but in the middle of discharge
increase rate to 200A, say for 10 min, and then return to
100A as before. As I understand, due to Peukert effect
during this 10 min total capacity appeared lower, but after
that - again the same as before heavier discharge.
Is this capacity difference permanently lost and total
capacity out at the end is lower than with steady 100A
discharge all the way? I suspect yes, but where the "lost"
energy went?
In other words, should I keep track of instantaneous
Peukert coeff (based on inst. current) and integrate
Peukert over time as depleting to arrive to 10.5V
at predicted time? Suppose I know exact Peukert exponent
for any current - is this enough to predict 100%DOD time
*provided the driving pattern (amps consumption over
time and so Peukert exponent) is known ahead of time*?
As I understand it is easy to calculate *exact* Ah spent
since full charge and predict exactly how much left
at any *known* consumption, because final capacity
is known then. I do realize it's impossible to predict
future driving pattern and so remaining range,
but at the end if I "average" driving current over
entire discharge time would that current with associated
Peukert mathematically result in the same capacity as
real driving one?
I also understand pure "Averaging" isn't good since exponent isn't
linear so 0A-100A-0A-100A isn't equal 50A steady draw,
but rather 65 or so my guess). In other words,
if I accelerate at 100A 10sec and coast at 0A 10 sec, I'll get
as far as if I draw, say, 65A steady, not 50A which is pure average.
So I put "averaging" in quotes.
To put it simpler, varying current is harder on the battery
than drawing steady mathematical average current from it,
but big question is by how much harder?
For the software to work well enough, I have to formalize
the answer.
Anyone?
Thanks for any insight,
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stefan Peters wrote:
Those Maxwell's are sweet, (58F!) but they can have a rather high ESR. I
only need 12V, am going to give a couple of those "audio application"
caps a whirl. Those are supposed to have a very low ESR, and made for
the 100Hz constant pulsing usage (think of all that bass, and some guys
are pushing almost 10kW from a couple of those buggers for years). The
good ones (competition rated) usually run $100-$150 each. You can get
no-names for under $50 (good for testing).
It's a bad F/$ ratio. My PC2500 caps are $125 new, and 2700F
(yes, Farads) capacity, 2.5V each. Calculate Farads/Dollar ratio.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just voted again.
All 3 electrics are now among top 15 vehicles.
Victor
http://www.dragtimes.com/Mazda-RX-7-Timeslip-7519.html
http://www.dragtimes.com/Datsun-1200-Timeslip-7484.html
http://www.dragtimes.com/Nissan-240SX-Timeslip-7382.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Damon,
If you are using a Link-10, then there is a Prescaler 0-499 volts with built in
DC-DC-12V isolated 3 watt output. No. 1N2537 which I got from EV Parts.
You can used a standard DC-DC converter off the main battery pack or from a
accessory battery which will input into this unit.
If you are using other than a Link-10, then contact that company that built it
to see if they have prescalers or separate unit for 12 volt isolation.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: damon henry<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 1:05 AM
Subject: Neg supply for E-meter
Thanks for all the responses on the No-No's of an emeter. Most of them I
had seen before, but since I didn't have an e-meter I didn't collect them
all.
I still have a couple more questions specific to my application. I don't
currently have an accesory battery, just a DC-DC converter. The negative
side of my DC-DC is connected to my frame. The E-meter manual states that I
must connect pin one to both the negative side of my traction pack as well
as the negative supply for the E-meter. This of course connects the
negative side of my traction pack to the negative side of my DC-DC and my
frame. This sounds bad...
The manual offers two options. Use a seperate accesory battery and tie the
negative post to the negative of the traction pack without making any
connections to the frame or use a seperate DC-DC converter. I have both an
Aux battery I can throw in and a second DC-DC. The downside to using a
seperate battery is that I will need to charge it seperately, which is not a
big deal and the way that I ran my bike for quite a while, but I would
rather not do it if possible. I don't think that using a second DC-DC tied
to the traction pack is what the manual has in mind. It looks like they are
connecting a DC-DC to the aux battery to provide isolation. It doesn't seem
to me that I can run my second DC-DC off the traction pack and use it to
power the e-meter as this would mean that I would be tying the neg input to
the neg output on the DC-DC.
If I don't want an aux battery do I need to have a second DC-DC off the
first to keep things isolated from the frame?
thanks
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The C/10 recommendation is typically a *minimum*
> initial charge rate.
Okay, so now I've throttled up the current to max, and
voltage is rising again! WAHOO!
> Until the batteries reach about 80%SOC you can
> typically charge as hard
> as you want. At about 80%SOC the charger typically
> goes into constant
> voltage mode so that the battery draws only as much
> current as it wants
> (and the current tapers off as the battery fills
> up).
Knew that.
>
> > Soooo, I ramped down the current, and the
> batteries
> > have never seen 189V since. Thus, my conclusion
> that
> > the batteries were sulfated.
>
> > What I'm hearing from you is that I _can_ see
> 189V,
>
> Perhaps, but are you sure you want to? 189V is
> 2.625V/cell for your 72
> cell (144V pack), not the 2.875V/cell you have
> calculated. This voltage
> is appropriate for a battery temperature of ~18C,
> per USBMC
> recommendations.
>
USB rec'd 2.583 VPC. It's been 40 F lately, and the
adjustment is like, .028VPC for every 10F below 80F.
I have 72 cells x 4 x .028, so that's another 8V to
add. 185 + 8V should be 193 for recent temps.
> I wonder if you really mean that you can't get the
> charger into *voltage
> limit*? That is, you can bubble the batteries all
> day and the voltage
> won't budge.
Yes, this is accurate. Will see in a few hours if I
can hit a voltage limit mode of around 185 or better.
Again, in this case, you can certainly
> *lower* the voltage
> limit until the charger indicates it is in constant
> voltage/voltage-limited operation.
Yes, but I don't want voltage limit to kick in at
174V!
>
> When the output is over about 174V, how much current
> are you delivering
> to the pack? If you are not in current limit, then
> as you adjust the
> current limit up or down you should see the current
> increase or decrease
> accordingly. If you turn up the current limit and
> the output current
> does *not* increase, then the charger is in voltage
> limit: increase the
> voltage limit and you should see the output current
> rise.
>
> Of course, remember that eventually you will run
> into the PFCxx's
> limits. Could it be that you are feeding the
> charger from 110VAC and
> are bumping into its input current limit?
Nope: always 220V. So the big issue seems to have
been turning down my current to C/10, when I really
should give it as much as I can, unless I'm charging
off a 110outlet, in which case I have to drop the
current to keep from tripping the breaker.
Thanks so much!!!
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Damon , my post don't seem to go through , let me know it you get this
and maybe post it aslo
steve clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>; "jon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "STEVE CLUNN"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 10:29 PM
Subject: Re: New motors and brush seating
10
I just though of a new one but don't know if it would hurt the e meter .
If
you where running the B+ voltage sense wire to the first battery (12v up
from the shunt) , not a good practice ,but sometimes done instead of a
pre
scalar , and that battery in a:" to deep a discharge " gets reversed ,
your
b+ sense could be below the ground ( maybe quite a bit), of course this
would be worse if you had the e meter being powered by the same battery .
For the poor person who powers their e meter for the first batteries in
the
pack , this light but constantan drain wears the first guy down , then
there's the drive to the very end , which the first guy is not in shape
for
, and hits 0v while the others are just starting to choke. By the time
the
car inches home the meter is cooked? .
11 another I don't see but your using a pre scalar ( which you need to
hook
the grounds up on first ) so you'll be ok , . I did this once , with 6v
batteries and the v sense wire hooked to the first two ( so as to see
12v )
if you un hook or have the cable between the two batteries come off your
e
meter is toast. All the light loads on the + and - of the traction pack
act
like a wire hooking the use to be traction pack negative post ( the one
with
the shunt on it ) to the most positive post of the traction pack (by way
of
any load hooked across traction pack.) , the wire that is hooked to the v
sense + and possible the supply + if no dc to dc is being used . If you
put
a meter where the cable was un hooked you'd see pack voltage with B+ at
the
shunt.=8-o and that was the last thing your e meter saw .
I've noticed that they don't seem to put a lot of smoke in the e meters ,
maybe because it comes out so easy and they don't want to waste it .
In a far of galaxies two semi conductors are talking " you let all the
blood
out , you know they won't work after you do that" " ya I got the drain and
source mixed up again , what a smelly mess "
Steve clunn .
----- Original Message -----
From: "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 8:28 AM
Subject: Re: E-meter no-no's
A good list Don , I'll add a few things.
6 Test your dc to dc , power it up and with a cheep o meter ( one you
don't mind throwing out ) measure the current from one of the inputs to
the out puts . There should be NONE . not a ma or a ua ( I test all four
ays - to - - to + + to - and + to + ) of course you don't want to test
across both input or out puts you will see current there :-) .
.7 hook up all the grounds first and when un hooking take off the sense +
first then power + . don't let these wires flop around when you have
them off , tape the ends , any leakage from traction pack to frame and a
sense or power wire hits the frame , you have a dead meter.
8 I have been putting a 6 pin plug on all my e meters , and unplug the
meter before doing any thing like putting new batteries in or taking off
any battery cable.
9 I have yet to see any fuse save an e meter . I keep letting them try ,
I
have seen the fuses get a little corroded and meter starts to read wrong
.
I now use the pig tail fuses a .25 amp for the sense and .5 for the
power.
I solder them in and put heat shrink tubing over them .
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron (New Beetle EV)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: E-meter no-no's
I am sure you will get a few replies to this.
1) make sure pack and supply polarity are correct.
2) make sure that the shunt is connected to the proper side of the pack
as
indicated in the manual
3) power it ONLY from a regulated isolated source, such as a small DC-DC
4) DO NOT power it my "tapping" into your pack as suggested by the
manual
(this has blown at least a couple of EMeters)
5) there is also a sequence to hooking up the lines - I just have been
lucky
(in that respect).
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
Quoting damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
I recently purchased an E-meter from grassrootsev.com I would like to
start
playing with. It is for my motorcycle which reaches up to about 75
volts
during charge, so I also purchased the 100v prescaler. I know there
are
some definite no-no's when hooking up and removing e-meters to keep
from
frying them. I also seem to remeber mention of some incorrect wiring
diagrams in the manuals.
What are the "set in stone rules" to follow to avoid frying a new
e-meter
and what are some of the common ways of accidently breaking these
rules?
thanks
damon
-------------------------------------------------
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----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 3:05 AM
Subject: Neg supply for E-meter
Thanks for all the responses on the No-No's of an emeter. Most of them I
had seen before, but since I didn't have an e-meter I didn't collect them
all.
I still have a couple more questions specific to my application. I don't
currently have an accesory battery, just a DC-DC converter. The negative
side of my DC-DC is connected to my frame. The E-meter manual states that
I must connect pin one to both the negative side of my traction pack as
well as the negative supply for the E-meter. This of course connects the
negative side of my traction pack to the negative side of my DC-DC and my
frame. This sounds bad...
Yes this is bad ,,, its the small dc to dc that just runs the meter that
gets conected to your big DC to dc . This way you'll still have isolation ,
but always check to see that you do have the isolation needed .
The manual offers two options. Use a seperate accesory battery and tie
the negative post to the negative of the traction pack without making any
connections to the frame or use a seperate DC-DC converter. I have both
an Aux battery I can throw in and a second DC-DC. The downside to using a
seperate battery is that I will need to charge it seperately,
yes and all the stuff that goes with it . It will also weight more .
which is not a
big deal and the way that I ran my bike for quite a while, but I would
rather not do it if possible. I don't think that using a second DC-DC
tied to the traction pack is what the manual has in mind.
I've done this , I use a 120v ac to dc with an out put of 15v , but you must
pick them carfully as some don't run off dc and none that do say so . but
for you a simple 12 v dc to dc would be best .
It looks like they are
connecting a DC-DC to the aux battery to provide isolation. It doesn't
seem to me that I can run my second DC-DC off the traction pack and use it
to power the e-meter as this would mean that I would be tying the neg
input to the neg output on the DC-DC.
OOOOO what is you traction pack voltage . ? is it below 36v if so you can
run all off it with no dc to dc .
If I don't want an aux battery do I need to have a second DC-DC off the
first to keep things isolated from the frame?
you got it .
let me know if you get this , I may have no e mail at all
steve clunn
thanks
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Bob,
All you have to do is turn up the voltage limit to 180 volts which is 10 volts
per battery and turn the ampere to as much as you can, so you do not blow the
breaker.
The maximum you should charge a battery is 20 percent of the ampere-hour rating
for a very long life, but you can charge more if you want. This will hold at
that current until the battery gets to 80 percent which than the PFC will
starting dropping the ampere.
I been charging this way for the last 30 years and nothing has blow up yet.
Your 10 volts is the same as 7.5 volts on my 6 volt batteries which is a
maximum of 52 ampere charge on a 260 ah battery. A equalization charge on my 6
volts is 7.76 volts or would be equal 10.35 volts or about 186.4 volts for you
battery pack.
The Smart charger, I talk about, will at times take a 8 volt battery to 11
volts which stays at that rate for about 30 seconds before dropping to 9.66
volts and than back up to 10.33 volts. On a very old battery, this will keep
repeating trying to desulfating it until its charge or it will say to replace
it.
Roland
My first set of batteries lasted just over 10 years and
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Bath<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 7:16 AM
Subject: Making progress! RE: battery advice.
> The C/10 recommendation is typically a *minimum*
> initial charge rate.
Okay, so now I've throttled up the current to max, and
voltage is rising again! WAHOO!
> Until the batteries reach about 80%SOC you can
> typically charge as hard
> as you want. At about 80%SOC the charger typically
> goes into constant
> voltage mode so that the battery draws only as much
> current as it wants
> (and the current tapers off as the battery fills
> up).
Knew that.
>
> > Soooo, I ramped down the current, and the
> batteries
> > have never seen 189V since. Thus, my conclusion
> that
> > the batteries were sulfated.
>
> > What I'm hearing from you is that I _can_ see
> 189V,
>
> Perhaps, but are you sure you want to? 189V is
> 2.625V/cell for your 72
> cell (144V pack), not the 2.875V/cell you have
> calculated. This voltage
> is appropriate for a battery temperature of ~18C,
> per USBMC
> recommendations.
>
USB rec'd 2.583 VPC. It's been 40 F lately, and the
adjustment is like, .028VPC for every 10F below 80F.
I have 72 cells x 4 x .028, so that's another 8V to
add. 185 + 8V should be 193 for recent temps.
> I wonder if you really mean that you can't get the
> charger into *voltage
> limit*? That is, you can bubble the batteries all
> day and the voltage
> won't budge.
Yes, this is accurate. Will see in a few hours if I
can hit a voltage limit mode of around 185 or better.
Again, in this case, you can certainly
> *lower* the voltage
> limit until the charger indicates it is in constant
> voltage/voltage-limited operation.
Yes, but I don't want voltage limit to kick in at
174V!
>
> When the output is over about 174V, how much current
> are you delivering
> to the pack? If you are not in current limit, then
> as you adjust the
> current limit up or down you should see the current
> increase or decrease
> accordingly. If you turn up the current limit and
> the output current
> does *not* increase, then the charger is in voltage
> limit: increase the
> voltage limit and you should see the output current
> rise.
>
> Of course, remember that eventually you will run
> into the PFCxx's
> limits. Could it be that you are feeding the
> charger from 110VAC and
> are bumping into its input current limit?
Nope: always 220V. So the big issue seems to have
been turning down my current to C/10, when I really
should give it as much as I can, unless I'm charging
off a 110outlet, in which case I have to drop the
current to keep from tripping the breaker.
Thanks so much!!!
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html<http://www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html>
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL - Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"90 amps or less" With how many volts ?
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Pretty good for 48vdc but notice on the flats I'd be drawing
90amps or less.
> Less volts more amps to do the same work. Ohm's Law. Lawrence
Rhodes.....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 12:32 PM
> Subject: Re: Fw: Geo Metro EV on a budget
>
>
> > So I got the Metro going ....
> >
> >
> > APPROX. - 43mph ....4th gear 210amps on the flat.....48 volts
> >
> > Is this in the ball park ??
> >
> > Only have a digital multi meter. 53.4 volts starting (is that a
full
> > charge ?)
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I ramped up the current throttle to max, set the
voltage limit to 183V, and hit 178. Got WAAAAY
excited, but before the blue LED came on indicating
current limit, voltage started dropping again. This
is what it's been doing all along. Why is it ramping
back voltage before it hits current limit? Water
levels are fine.
Thanks,
--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Bob,
>
> All you have to do is turn up the voltage limit to
> 180 volts which is 10 volts per battery and turn the
> ampere to as much as you can, so you do not blow the
> breaker.
>
> The maximum you should charge a battery is 20
> percent of the ampere-hour rating for a very long
> life, but you can charge more if you want. This
> will hold at that current until the battery gets to
> 80 percent which than the PFC will starting dropping
> the ampere.
>
> I been charging this way for the last 30 years and
> nothing has blow up yet. Your 10 volts is the same
> as 7.5 volts on my 6 volt batteries which is a
> maximum of 52 ampere charge on a 260 ah battery. A
> equalization charge on my 6 volts is 7.76 volts or
> would be equal 10.35 volts or about 186.4 volts for
> you battery pack.
>
> The Smart charger, I talk about, will at times take
> a 8 volt battery to 11 volts which stays at that
> rate for about 30 seconds before dropping to 9.66
> volts and than back up to 10.33 volts. On a very
> old battery, this will keep repeating trying to
> desulfating it until its charge or it will say to
> replace it.
>
> Roland
>
> My first set of batteries lasted just over 10 years
> and
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bob Bath<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To:
> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 7:16 AM
> Subject: Making progress! RE: battery advice.
>
>
> > The C/10 recommendation is typically a *minimum*
> > initial charge rate.
> Okay, so now I've throttled up the current to max,
> and
> voltage is rising again! WAHOO!
> > Until the batteries reach about 80%SOC you can
> > typically charge as hard
> > as you want. At about 80%SOC the charger
> typically
> > goes into constant
> > voltage mode so that the battery draws only as
> much
> > current as it wants
> > (and the current tapers off as the battery fills
> > up).
> Knew that.
> >
> > > Soooo, I ramped down the current, and the
> > batteries
> > > have never seen 189V since. Thus, my
> conclusion
> > that
> > > the batteries were sulfated.
> >
> > > What I'm hearing from you is that I _can_ see
> > 189V,
> >
> > Perhaps, but are you sure you want to? 189V is
> > 2.625V/cell for your 72
> > cell (144V pack), not the 2.875V/cell you have
> > calculated. This voltage
> > is appropriate for a battery temperature of
> ~18C,
> > per USBMC
> > recommendations.
> >
> USB rec'd 2.583 VPC. It's been 40 F lately, and
> the
> adjustment is like, .028VPC for every 10F below
> 80F.
> I have 72 cells x 4 x .028, so that's another 8V
> to
> add. 185 + 8V should be 193 for recent temps.
>
> > I wonder if you really mean that you can't get
> the
> > charger into *voltage
> > limit*? That is, you can bubble the batteries
> all
> > day and the voltage
> > won't budge.
> Yes, this is accurate. Will see in a few hours if
> I
> can hit a voltage limit mode of around 185 or
> better.
>
> Again, in this case, you can certainly
> > *lower* the voltage
> > limit until the charger indicates it is in
> constant
> > voltage/voltage-limited operation.
> Yes, but I don't want voltage limit to kick in at
> 174V!
> >
> > When the output is over about 174V, how much
> current
> > are you delivering
> > to the pack? If you are not in current limit,
> then
> > as you adjust the
> > current limit up or down you should see the
> current
> > increase or decrease
> > accordingly. If you turn up the current limit
> and
> > the output current
> > does *not* increase, then the charger is in
> voltage
> > limit: increase the
> > voltage limit and you should see the output
> current
> > rise.
> >
> > Of course, remember that eventually you will run
> > into the PFCxx's
> > limits. Could it be that you are feeding the
> > charger from 110VAC and
> > are bumping into its input current limit?
> Nope: always 220V. So the big issue seems to have
> been turning down my current to C/10, when I
> really
> should give it as much as I can, unless I'm
> charging
> off a 110outlet, in which case I have to drop the
> current to keep from tripping the breaker.
>
> Thanks so much!!!
>
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD
> available)!
>
>
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html<http://www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html>
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe
> came out of the steering wheel? Are you saving any
> gas for your kids?
>
>
>
> __________________________________________
> Yahoo! DSL - Something to write home about.
> Just $16.99/mo. or less.
> dsl.yahoo.com
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And as near as I can tell, the SG is going _down_, not
up. I took the lowest-voltage battery (reading 9.73,
instead of 10.01), and it now has greyish electrolyte
in all of the cells, and SG readings of between 2.50 &
2.65.
I just wanna' hit 185 volts like the good-old days!
--- Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I ramped up the current throttle to max, set the
> voltage limit to 183V, and hit 178. Got WAAAAY
> excited, but before the blue LED came on indicating
> current limit, voltage started dropping again. This
> is what it's been doing all along. Why is it
> ramping
> back voltage before it hits current limit? Water
> levels are fine.
> Thanks,
>
> --- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hello Bob,
> >
> > All you have to do is turn up the voltage limit to
> > 180 volts which is 10 volts per battery and turn
> the
> > ampere to as much as you can, so you do not blow
> the
> > breaker.
> >
> > The maximum you should charge a battery is 20
> > percent of the ampere-hour rating for a very long
> > life, but you can charge more if you want. This
> > will hold at that current until the battery gets
> to
> > 80 percent which than the PFC will starting
> dropping
> > the ampere.
> >
> > I been charging this way for the last 30 years and
> > nothing has blow up yet. Your 10 volts is the
> same
> > as 7.5 volts on my 6 volt batteries which is a
> > maximum of 52 ampere charge on a 260 ah battery.
> A
> > equalization charge on my 6 volts is 7.76 volts or
> > would be equal 10.35 volts or about 186.4 volts
> for
> > you battery pack.
> >
> > The Smart charger, I talk about, will at times
> take
> > a 8 volt battery to 11 volts which stays at that
> > rate for about 30 seconds before dropping to 9.66
> > volts and than back up to 10.33 volts. On a very
> > old battery, this will keep repeating trying to
> > desulfating it until its charge or it will say to
> > replace it.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> > My first set of batteries lasted just over 10
> years
> > and
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Bob Bath<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To:
> > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> > Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 7:16 AM
> > Subject: Making progress! RE: battery advice.
> >
> >
> > > The C/10 recommendation is typically a
> *minimum*
> > > initial charge rate.
> > Okay, so now I've throttled up the current to
> max,
> > and
> > voltage is rising again! WAHOO!
> > > Until the batteries reach about 80%SOC you can
> > > typically charge as hard
> > > as you want. At about 80%SOC the charger
> > typically
> > > goes into constant
> > > voltage mode so that the battery draws only as
> > much
> > > current as it wants
> > > (and the current tapers off as the battery
> fills
> > > up).
> > Knew that.
> > >
> > > > Soooo, I ramped down the current, and the
> > > batteries
> > > > have never seen 189V since. Thus, my
> > conclusion
> > > that
> > > > the batteries were sulfated.
> > >
> > > > What I'm hearing from you is that I _can_
> see
> > > 189V,
> > >
> > > Perhaps, but are you sure you want to? 189V
> is
> > > 2.625V/cell for your 72
> > > cell (144V pack), not the 2.875V/cell you have
> > > calculated. This voltage
> > > is appropriate for a battery temperature of
> > ~18C,
> > > per USBMC
> > > recommendations.
> > >
> > USB rec'd 2.583 VPC. It's been 40 F lately, and
> > the
> > adjustment is like, .028VPC for every 10F below
> > 80F.
> > I have 72 cells x 4 x .028, so that's another 8V
> > to
> > add. 185 + 8V should be 193 for recent temps.
> >
> > > I wonder if you really mean that you can't get
> > the
> > > charger into *voltage
> > > limit*? That is, you can bubble the batteries
> > all
> > > day and the voltage
> > > won't budge.
> > Yes, this is accurate. Will see in a few hours
> if
> > I
> > can hit a voltage limit mode of around 185 or
> > better.
> >
> > Again, in this case, you can certainly
> > > *lower* the voltage
> > > limit until the charger indicates it is in
> > constant
> > > voltage/voltage-limited operation.
> > Yes, but I don't want voltage limit to kick in
> at
> > 174V!
> > >
> > > When the output is over about 174V, how much
> > current
> > > are you delivering
> > > to the pack? If you are not in current limit,
> > then
> > > as you adjust the
> > > current limit up or down you should see the
> > current
> > > increase or decrease
> > > accordingly. If you turn up the current limit
> > and
> > > the output current
> > > does *not* increase, then the charger is in
> > voltage
> > > limit: increase the
> > > voltage limit and you should see the output
> > current
> > > rise.
> > >
> > > Of course, remember that eventually you will
> run
> > > into the PFCxx's
> > > limits. Could it be that you are feeding the
> > > charger from 110VAC and
> > > are bumping into its input current limit?
> > Nope: always 220V. So the big issue seems to
> have
> > been turning down my current to C/10, when I
> > really
> > should give it as much as I can, unless I'm
> > charging
> > off a 110outlet, in which case I have to drop
> the
> > current to keep from tripping the breaker.
> >
> > Thanks so much!!!
> >
> > '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD
> > available)!
> >
> >
>
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html<http://www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html>
> > ____
> > __/__|__\ __
> > =D-------/ - - \
> > 'O'-----'O'-'
> > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe
> > came out of the steering wheel? Are you saving any
> > gas for your kids?
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________
> > Yahoo! DSL - Something to write home about.
> > Just $16.99/mo. or less.
> > dsl.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD
> available)!
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
>
=== message truncated ===
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've attached a 8-inch ADC motor (new) attached to the transmission, and I'd
like to break in the motor by running it at low voltage for 24 hours. I've
got a 600 watt power supply at 13.2V. Is the power draw from the ADC low
enough that if I hooked the power supply to a 12V battery, then hooked the
battery to the motor, things would run for 24 hours without draining the
battery?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi James -
After I wrote that I thought maybe I wasn't get out enough.
I lied though - I did have one encounter.
About 28 years ago, in 1978, I mentioned to a guy in an alternator rebuilding
shop that I was interested in electric cars. He happened to have one in the
back, a converted fiberglass kit car, and he gave me a ride in it. I remember
the loud growl of the SCR chopper curcuit.
I think that was the clincher. Up until that time, I thought I was on the
lunatic fringe - well, a case can still be made.....the motor was running when
I pulled it out.
The ratio seems about right, and thanks, I was wondering how many people were
on this list (I'm new to discussion groups - I suppose there is an easy way to
find that out).
I'm putting together a web site (not sure which is more of a challenge - the
site or the conversion) mainly because of all the others who took the time to
share their experience on the internet.
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> At 02:57 AM 7/01/06 +0000, Dana wrote:
> >It's very odd to me that there are so many seriously interested in
> >electric vehicles.
> >Honestly, I've never met one.
>
> Hi Dana
>
> OK, 1000 people on this list, making a guess here that 80% are in the USA,
> so 800 USA listees. Maybe 1 in 10 serious EVers belong to this list, so
> 8000 USA serious EVers. USA has, what, 140,000,000 people? (not being there
> I'm not really sure), but 1 person in 17,500 is probably a reasonable
> estimate of serious EV hobbyist levels. Do you know more than 17,500
> people? Well you're the one in 17,500, so not surprising!
>
> But there probably are people you know who are interested in EVs, but
> haven't started to do anything - probably more than half of the list
> members don't have a useable EV.
>
> I live in a small city - around 40,000 people I think. Apart from me there is:
> One person with an on-road EV (who I only found out about when he brought
> his E-meter in for repair),
> One with a vehicle stripped to be an EV (who I employ),
> One who did a (poor) conversion 30-odd years ago,
> One who I know is collecting parts to maybe do an EV.
>
> So of 5 people who are 'into' EVs that I know of, one I wouldn't have known
> about but for him bringing his E-meter in for repair, myself and two others
> talk about EVs, so three in 40,000 who talk about EVs, but we travel in
> roughly the same circles, so there are a lot of people we haven't met.
>
> So it is not surprising that you havent knowingly met many/any other EV
> enthusiasts, and are 'blown away' by this list. That's probably where most
> people find themselves at one time or other, unless they find a 'mentor'
> who infects them with the EV disease.
>
> James (in Australia)
>
--- End Message ---
