EV Digest 5077
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Motor Shaft to Flywheel Coupling
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 9" ADC motor mount
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Announcement: New NEDRA Class Rules
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Digital cammera crosover point
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Tire Ignition Sequence Photos of White Zombie???
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Tire Ignition Sequence Photos of White Zombie???
by "John Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Neg supply for E-meter [EMAIL PROTECTED]
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Neg supply for E-meter
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Angle Capacity Estimate
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Neg supply for E-meter [EMAIL PROTECTED]
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: unsubscribe
by will burton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Neg supply for E-meter [EMAIL PROTECTED]
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) S-10 converted US-Electricar with Wavedriver
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Announcement: New NEDRA Class Rules
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
1. The motor shaft itself has a 7/8" diameter (max OD) x 1-1/2" length, 13
tooth straight splined shaft.
This raises the question, what kind of motor is this? It may not be
appropriate for use in a conversion. It sounds a lot like an aircraft
starter/generator. If so, do yourself the favor of sending it to the
recycler and replacing it with something real. It will only cause you
grief, and isn't worth the effort necessary to fabricate the hub. We did
enough of these in the bad old days, before we had access to Prestolites,
and later, Advanced DCs.
Good general rule: if you are trying to use a component no one else seems
to be using, find out WHY. There may be a very good reason.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 03:02 PM 1/8/06 -0800, you wrote:
I just got the motor attached to the transaxle and stuffed into the '86
VW Scirocco I'm converting (Hooray!). I'm reusing the three mounts that
attach to the tranny. For the motor end I'm still scratching my head.
The brush end of the motor has two 3/8" holes that look like they
could be used to attach a mount similar to the EA mount for the 8"
motor. However, due to the orientation, reusing the ICE motor mount
location may cause sheer stress on the bolts/holes. That is to say, when
looking at the brush end of the motor, the holes are at 2 and 4 o'clock
and the existing mount location on the body is over the 9 o'clock
position. Anyone know how strong these holes and the end plate are and
how much stress would be placed on them?
Alternatively, is anyone making an end mount for the 9" motor?
We have a mount for the ADC 9" to Rabbit-family vehicles like the
Scirocco. $350 + shipping, and sales tax if you are in California. It
bolts to the same holes in the end of the motor, and uses the factory
chassis bracket, with a rubber bushing. It allows the orientation of the
battery terminals to point toward the bottom of the car, as in the stock
Voltsrabbit, for easy access. It is designed with some built-in
adjustaility to compensate for slight variations in individual chassis.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stefan T. Peters [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > - looking at the BatPack/RedRock site, this fellow's logic
> > looks a bit messed up. The Rds(on) does not increase
> > exponentially with voltage
>
> I have asked him about that. He said the site is quite dated, and he
> last worked on the project about six years ago. MOSFET and IGBT
> technology has probably changed enough so that some of the points he
> originally made aren't valid anymore.
I doubt his points were ever valid... ;^>
> > This means that if built with MOSFETs as the
> > switches, they *each* ultimately end up containing much the same
> > complememt of devices (voltage and current ratings) as a plain PWM
> > controller.
>
> In which case the system would effectively act as a monolithic PWM
> controller.
Except that if you need multiple subnet switches stacked up to allow
sereis parallel switching of 4-6 strings, and each switch needs close to
the same amount of silicon as the single monolithic PWM controller, then
what's the point? Micros are cheap, but high current switches aren't.
In my example of a 120V pack made up of 5 24V strings, at least one of
the subnet switches needs to handle 96V and full current, and be able to
switch its two inputs in series or parallel; the cost of this single
switch will be simmilar to that of a monolithic 120V PWM controller.
> > - 7 Power Modules in series (6 @ 18V each, 1 @ 12V): 8.4 milliohms
> > total, which is 4.62V loss @ 550A! This is 2.8x the loss of the
> > Curtis PWM controller! This is the *best* case, with all
> > modules on for maximum pack voltage to the motor, an operating
> > condition that does not represent the majority of one's driving.
> >
>
> Yes, with parallel-series switching you would be pulling 1100A to the
> motor in this case! Now that is one lead foot.
But my example assumes the simplest configuration with no
series/parallel switching and so no additional switching losses in the
series/parallel switch. This is the *best* case situation, the *peak*
efficiency your system can offer is with all modules in series and
supplying the full current.
The 50% throttle example efficiency would almost certainly improve with
series/parallel switching.
> What would be great would be four strings of two Battery Controller
> each. That would cover 48V - 144V packs (depending on what voltage
> each Battery Controller was setup as: 6, 8, 12, or 18). Or you could
> run whatever string geometry needed, just keep them symmetrical (i.e.
> two 12V, two 48V). You would have 8 Battery Controllers in the example
> above, but they would only need to be 200-300A (even cheaper, about
> $35 each) for a 800A - 1200A peak system. You would have the following
> voltage/amperage steps available (assuming 300A/12V battery
controllers):
>
> 1200A - 12V, 24V
> 600A - 36V, 48V
> 300A - 60V, 72V, 84V, 96V
Let's see:
1200A @ 24V = 28.8kW
600A @ 48V = 28.8kW
300A @ 96V = 28.8kW
These figures don't take into account battery sag, yet you are already
limited to about 30HP *maximum* from this controller. I think you need
to assume that the controller *must* support higher currents at the
higher voltages if it is to be attractive for on-road EVs.
You also need to plan on having each switch provide self-protection
against over-temperature/over-current if you use MOSFETs...
This all being said, I think that the "holy grail" is something like you
envision, with each battery having some sort of intelligence so that you
can plug and play batteries into the EV and have them used and looked
after automatically. I just think that there are a lot of subtle
details one needs to work through...
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I think you missed the mark on the new rules. This is because I just ended up in
"Pro Street" class. It has been a daily drive. If I take my carbon fiber hood
off and my after market air dam off of 81 VW Rabbit pickup, I guess I am back
in Street Conversion ?
I think the two or more motors should have been in the new specs.
If you look look at the fastest cars (John, Otmar,the new 240 Nisson, the old
280 Z, Hall chevy) they are all two motors. I liked to say that I had the
fastest single motor "SC/b"( That might not be true, but it made me feel good.)
Also this spring I bought a 820I TVR (1987). It was a production British
sports car and the last year imported. It construction is Fiber glass body
on a tube frame. If I convert it, what class is it in ?
Robert Salem
81 VW pickup 240volts,11" Kostov, Z2K - (14.9 91 mph)
>
> Hi All,
> Roderick Wilde here from NEDRA, the National Electric Drag Racing
> Association. We have been toiling tirelessly on a new set of class rules
> since late September (yes over three months), and we are now ready to
> announce the new class definitions.
>
> This effort came about as a direct result of discussions on this list of
> the vagueness of our very brief class descriptions (hey, they worked for
> much longer than I thought they would). NEDRA has adopted the NHRA
> (National Hot Rod Association) rules and we try to follow the guidelines and
> examples they set. If you take a look at the NHRA rules you'll see that
> they are quite long and very detailed. Our new NEDRA class definitions,
> though far more detailed than in the past, are still much simpler and
> briefer than the NHRA's. This was an intentional decision to keep the
> class descriptions very easy to understand and the requirements easy to
> comply with.
>
> The really good news is that we have created two entirely new classes! Our
> original "Street Conversion" class encompassed many different types of
> cars, yet it has been dominated by professional racers (such as Plasma Boy
> for instance), so we decided to subdivide the class into two new ones.
> We formed a new class called "Pro Street Conversion" for the "hopped up"
> type cars. This reopens the original "Street Conversion" class back up for
> the average "daily driver" type cars. This will open up the availability
> for daily drivers to set new World Records during the exciting and
> expanded 2006 racing season. Former "Street Conversion" record holders
> that no longer fit in the new criteria of "Street Conversion" will be
> moved up to "Pro Street".
>
> IMPORTANT NOTE: No one loses any World Records! Your record may simply be
> reclassified to a different class. We hope that does not hurt too many
> people's feelings out there.
>
> The other new class is on the other end of the spectrum and is called
> "Extreme Street" (XS) for excessive of course. This is basically an
> "anything goes within NHRA regulations" class designed for street bodied,
> ground up, purpose built race cars with plastic/carbon/fiberglass bodies
> and a custom chassis. This is basically the "funny car" class. John and I
> first discussed the formation of this class over six years ago
>
> Please note the "Spirit of the Class" definitions listed before each
> class. This is a plain English paragraph describing what the class is all
> about and was included to assist you in understanding our intent for the
> class and categorizing your vehicle within the new class structure.
>
> Check all the new NEDRA class rules here:
> http://www.nedra.com/class_rules.html
>
> Feel free to contact the rules committee with your comments. The rules
> committee consisted of::
> Brian Hall, John Wayland, Ken Trough, and Roderick Wilde.
>
> I thank all of the rules committee members for their tireless work on what
> sometimes seemed to be an endless nightmare!
>
> Roderick Wilde
> NEDRA President
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> *The Spirit of the Street Conversion Class*
>
> The Street Conversion (SC) class is for basic street legal and licensed
> conversions that have not been modified for racing. "Conversions" are
> vehicles that have been mass-produced but were NOT originally
> manufactured as electric vehicles. This is the class for the "daily
> driver" and DOT tires are required.
>
> *The Spirit of the Pro Street Class*
>
> The Pro Street Conversion class (PS) is for street legal and licensed
> conversions that have been modified for racing use while still
> maintaining their street appearance and drivability. "Conversions" are
> vehicles that have been mass-produced but were NOT originally
> manufactured as electric vehicles. Racing slicks are allowed.
>
> *The Spirit of the Modified Conversion Class*
>
> Class MC: (Modified Street Conversion) The intent of this class is for
> street bodied and chassised vehicles that are heavily modified for
> racing. This class does not require vehicles to be licensed for street
> use and racing slicks are allowed.
>
> *The Spirit of the Xtreme Street Class*
>
> Class XS: (Xtreme Street) The intent of this class is for street bodied
> vehicles that are built as all out race vehicles and differ from SC, PS
> and MC classes, all of which require stock production bodies and frames.
> This is the class for custom tube chassis or other highly modified
> chassis vehicles. This class does not require vehicles to be licensed
> for street use and racing slicks are allowed.
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.15/223 - Release Date: 1/6/2006
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought I would share a tidbit of info from some research I did a
while back.
Although this is not really hard data, but industry standard acceptance
from professionals.
5 mega pixel is good for standard size photo's and 8x10 enlargements
with 6.3Megapixel ~= 35mm film
8 mega-pixel is the crossover point for the "ad-copy" capable images,
Like from a hassenblad 2" negative studio camera.
But there was more to it than just that.
There is CCD vs CMOS and In my opinion CMOS wins. CCD is limited in
light sensitivity as it needed to be scanned and interpolated to read
the charge. Thus the "effective megapixel" stats. The effect of this
interpolation can be seen in loss of clarity from noise generated by the
interpolation in low light shots. The CMOS one must be read all at once
and needs more processor power (translates, sucks power).
The aspect ratio from the size of the sensor to the lens. We want 1:1
The higher end digitals are 1.5:1 and better.
The lens. Still the most important.
The upshot was I held off buying the camera I decided on and bought a
warp9 motor instead, it was cheaper.
The Canon 20D was the camera I wanted. The NIKON was the only other
contender.
But the good news is "high resolution" for display on the web doesn't
need all this. 3Megapixel is considered excessive. And new digital
consumer cameras finally got with it and are eliminating the really long
shutter lag. (still too long for my taste. The only possibility is that
at a drag race you can use the lights to time your shot and get lucky)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger is correct in his description of EV1 controller
frequency operation. I don't know the history of why
they used this scheme, but I'm guessing there is a
very good engineering explanation :-)
Keep in mind that the SCR control was developed in the
early 70's , so this may explain the frequency range.
Rod
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From: Roger Stockton
> > My EV1 manual states that the frequency *peaks* at
> 300Hz at
> > half throttle and is actually about 50Hz at low
> and full throttle...
> >"frequency varies from ~50Hz at min (~5%) and max
> (~95%) duty
> > cycle to ~300Hz at 50% duty cycle. At min. duty
> cycle ON time is
> > ~0.8ms, OFF time is ~20ms; at 50% duty cycle ON &
> OFF time
> > are ~1.7ms; at max. duty cycle ON time is ~20ms
> and OFF time
> > is ~0.8ms."
>
> Interesting! I've never seen the EV1 manual; I was
> just guessing at the frequency from hearing a few
> EV1's in operation.
>
> If it really is 300 Hz max, no wonder it has such an
> impact on range. It sounds like GE "cheaped out" on
> the SCRs and used plain old 60hz parts instead of
> the faster inverter-grade SCRs, and this forced them
> to keep the frequency so low.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
'Course I meant film scanner, usually 2400 lpi resolution
in average (not a generic flat bed scanner attempting to scan negatives
as any other paper). Some Kinkos or Office Maxes have them available
for walk in customers.
Victor
Roger Stockton wrote:
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
BTW, it doesn't have
to be digital camera and selection of such optics for film
SLR cameras is still much larger (scanning negatives yields
the same if not better resolution than most (but pro) digital
cameras.
This is true, even pro digital cameras don't (yet) compete with the
amount of information that analog film can capture. You just can't scan
a 35mm negative/positive with a typical home scanner and expect to get
all the information off of it; have it scanned professionally.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was surprised by the quality of the shots that I was able to
capture from analog videotape a few years back. Here's a sample
action shot that came from a Hi8 tape.
http://www.killacycle.com
It's pretty respectable if you keep in mind that it came from tape.
That was a tough shot, due to the close zoom and extreme speed
of the subject. Under ideal conditions though, like a macro shot of
a flower in good lighting, the results can be almost unbelievable.
It's made possible by massively oversampling the image. Here's
some samples that came from Low8 videotape:
http://www.geocities.com/evguy_2000/vid02.html
including a gorgious 914 and pictures of Plasma Boy himself.
...John
> Bob Rice wrote:
>
> > Hi John;
> >
> > Canya cull a few shots from vids? Help yourself to what you captured from
> >mine. Like the famous 'Zorch" scene while doing a break stand?
> >
> >
> >
> Bob, your video captured what I'm looking for, but copying frames from
> it results in very low rez shots. I need the opening picture for the
> 'Car of the Month' to be clear. Other than the low quality of the stills
> taken from your video, yes, this is exactly what I'm looking for. Surely
> someone else was snapping pictures that day?
>
> See Ya......John Wayland
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
I have asked him about that. He said the site is quite dated, and he
last worked on the project about six years ago. MOSFET and IGBT
technology has probably changed enough so that some of the points he
originally made aren't valid anymore.
I doubt his points were ever valid... ;^>
His scalability point is still valid. Using these you can get into 1000s
of volts using easy to find silicon. It's limited only by the diodes,
and those can be gotten into the 3000V range without too much trouble.
If you use bigger MOSFETs (more amps) then I to keep the total parts
count down, it's quite doable.
Except that if you need multiple subnet switches stacked up to allow
sereis parallel switching of 4-6 strings, and each switch needs close to
the same amount of silicon as the single monolithic PWM controller, then
what's the point?
Who said multiple? If a Motor Controller was equipped with PWM, you
wouldn't need multiple strings to spread the current draw around, would
you? It would be a normal PWM controller. With the same complexity and
parts. That's it. Using the same components in a modular setup allows
for one group of people to design and test one set of hardware that can
be used as a PWM controller, a programmable contactor controller, a
BatPack style controller, and any mix in between.
Micros are cheap, but high current switches aren't.
In my example of a 120V pack made up of 5 24V strings, at least one of
the subnet switches needs to handle 96V and full current, and be able to
switch its two inputs in series or parallel; the cost of this single
switch will be simmilar to that of a monolithic 120V PWM controller.
Re my explanation above. It would *be* a PWM controller if you use the
PWM Motor Controller. Just upgradeable. I mean monolithic as you can't
rearrange or reassemble the stuff to make other stuff. Modular means you
can. Modular means shared design and testing. Less hours, more benefit.
Are you sure you actaully played with LEGOs for a considerable time
before? ;)
A full BatPack style setup at 80HP levels would cost *more* then a basic
PWM controller, but less then a programmable PWM controller with a BMS
system installed.
I'm just trying to make it so that you don't end up with a group of
people making a public-domain PWM controller, another making a
public-domain programmable contactor controller, and yet another making
a public-domain BMS system, and so on so forth with so much duplicated
effort. This "code reuse" and modular design is common in the B2B
software industry because of the massive scale we have to sometimes deal
with. We would work ourselves to death if we designed, coded, tested,
and implemented every product from scratch each time. This way
issues/bugs are encountered once, resolved, and then that piece of the
big picture is known good from now on.
1200A @ 24V = 28.8kW
600A @ 48V = 28.8kW
300A @ 96V = 28.8kW
These figures don't take into account battery sag, yet you are already
limited to about 30HP *maximum* from this controller. I think you need
to assume that the controller *must* support higher currents at the
higher voltages if it is to be attractive for on-road EVs.
Indeed, those are for a little 2 door datsun roadster. 40HP/80FtLbs is
the most my motor will make anyways at 96V. I was giving the example of
a small EV. If you used 8 600A Battery Controllers and hooked them up
to 3 6V floodies each, you would have:
2400A (!) - 18V, 36V
1200A - 54V, 72V
600A - 90V, 108V, 126V, 144V
86.4kW
And if you upgraded by adding another Battery Controller on to the end
of each string later:
2400A - 18, 36, 54V
1200A - 72, 90, 108V
600A - 126, 144, 162, 180V
108kW
Now the "contactor controller" part would have to support those levels
for you do do that, yes.
You also need to plan on having each switch provide self-protection
against over-temperature/over-current if you use MOSFETs...
It's in there already. With overvoltage clamping. It is part of the
IPS-series MOSFET design when being controlled by a micro (which is what
they are specifically made for)
This all being said, I think that the "holy grail" is something like you
envision, with each battery having some sort of intelligence so that you
can plug and play batteries into the EV and have them used and looked
after automatically. I just think that there are a lot of subtle
details one needs to work through...
I agree, hence this thread and letting everyone pick at my
thoughts/ideas. It appears that you still see this as a single "product"
and not a system or framework. It is a collection of parts that can be
combined (or customized) in various ways to give you various types of
functionality.
It is *not* a new controller per se, but a bunch of component which can
be used to make a controller of any type, with some new stuff thrown in
if you want to use it. This is a large part of the whole "open-source"
thing. Share and reuse. Modify and contribute.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Add a diode and a fuse (4A or so) to each and you won't
have to worry about one blowing - you still have 9 others
to share the load. Heck, install a few more for backup ;-)
It is preferred if they have current-limit - this will
automatically share the load, none will supply more than
its max current.
In half-load, it may be that some are full-on and some are off,
but that is not interesting.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of MIKE & PAULA WILLMON
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 11:34 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Neg supply for E-meter [EMAIL PROTECTED]
%%From: Mike & Paula Willmon
%% Thats a good point. Balancing those things would be a pain. I do
however have boxes of 2 Amp 15V bricks that my company cuts the connector
end off to use on wireless radios, and throws away the supplies. Will
tinker with this a bit and get back to the list.
Mike
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon Jan 9, 2006 12:51 pm
Subject: RE: Neg supply for E-meter [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Send Email
From: Mike & Paula Willmon
>Not to change the subject from the E-meter problem but 10 of those babies
>would give the requisite 30A at 12V (nominal) to run an accessory system.
A clever idea, but these little supplies are pretty cheaply made so
reliability
is low. Using 10 of them would ocmpound this problem. They do not share
power
when operated in parallel; you'd have to do something tricky. They also
aren't
very efficient; usually in the 70-80% range.
It's something you could try if you got a bunch of them free and didn't mind
playing around.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This was about isolating the _pack_ side (input to the supplies)
not the 12V side.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of damon henry
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 10:50 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Neg supply for E-meter
Actually, there is very little wiring on the motorcycle and most of it I
have replaced already. If it weren't for the way the dumb lights are made,
I could easily isolate my whole 12volt system from the frame. Unfortunately
all the lights mounting hardware is built expecting the negative side of the
power equation from the frame, so even if I ran a seperate ground wire to
each, I would also have to figure out a way to isolate the individual
hardware piece from the frame. That is just not worth the effort...
damon
>From: Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: RE: Neg supply for E-meter
>Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 00:45:34 -0900
>
>Not to change the subject from the E-meter problem but 10 of those babies
>would give the requisite 30A at 12V (nominal) to run an accessory system.
>Keep 'em cool enough, the input wires protected and you wouldn't have to
>worry about isolating their chassis' from your frame ground. Throw a Trace
>(now Xantrex)C-40 charge controller inline and there's an inexpensive
>alternatve to DC-DC converters. More versatile too.
>
>Mike
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Behalf Of Cor van de Water
>Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 1:09 AM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: RE: Neg supply for E-meter
>
>
>I suggest to look at (used) laptop power supplies.
>They are always switchers (you can use them from
>100 - 240V AC, so they should be fine up to 360V
>DC, which limits the voltage (during eq charge)
>to about 22 x 12V batteries or 264V system.
>They have plenty of output current (3+ Amp) and
>often deliver around 15 - 18V.
>
>One currently on Ebay for $5 +$8 shipping:
>Item nr 6837357331
>
>You can still look in your junk-box for old
>power supplies - make sure they have a wide
>input voltage range.
>
>Success,
>
>Cor van de Water
>Systems Architect
>Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
>Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
>Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Behalf Of Rush
>Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 2:40 PM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: Neg supply for E-meter
>
>
>Lee,
>
>Would this one work - http://datasheet.astrodyne.com/PWB.pdf
>
>Model AFC-15S, output V- 15vdc, output A - 0.66, output W - 10W, input V -
>85-265vac?
>
>sorta pricy, $39 from them.
>
>Thanks
>
>Rush
>Tucson AZ
>www.ironandwood.org
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 12:29 PM
>Subject: Re: Neg supply for E-meter
>
>
> > From: damon henry
> >> I still have a couple more questions specific to my application. I
>don't
> >> currently have an accesory battery, just a DC-DC converter. The
>negative
> >> side of my DC-DC is connected to my frame. The E-meter manual states
> >> that I must connect pin one to both the negative side of my traction
>pack
> >> as well as the negative supply for the E-meter. This of course connects
> >> the negative side of my traction pack to the negative side of my DC-DC
> >> and my frame. This sounds bad...
> >
> > Correct! You can't power the E-meter directly from your 12v accessory
>power.
> >
> >>The manual offers two options...
> >
> > There is another option, which I prefer. Get a small switching power
>supply
> > that can run directly off your traction pack, and which has an isolated
>12v
> > output to power the E-meter (and nothing else). The E-meter takes so
>little
> > power that this can be a "wall wart" or old laptop power brick. Just
>make
> > sure it is a SWITCHING power supply, not one with a 60hz transformer!
> >
> > Almost all low-power switchers have "universal" inputs and work on AC or
> > DC, at anything from 90-300v. For example, I use an Astrodyne 15vdc
> > 0.5amp switcher. It is rated for 90-264vac input, but actually works
>from
> > 60-350vdc. It's a little potted "brick", and would even work underwater.
> >
> > The advantage of this approach is that the little switcher is more
>efficient
> > than having to run the main DC/DC just to power a *second* DC/DC to get
> > the 25ma or so the E-meter needs. The Astrodyne I use draws 4-9ma from
> > my 132v propulsion pack, depending on whether the E-meter is asleep or
>in
> > full sunlight. A normal "full-size" DC/DC would draw over 20ma even with
>NO
> > load on its output.
> > --
> > Lee Hart
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anybody know where I can look on the web to estimate the size of angle iron
or angle aluminum needed to support a given weight of batteries? I'm
building a rack for batteries under the hood, two parallel lengths of angle,
which will span about 3 feet and hold around 80 pounds of batteries. I've
got some 1 x 1 x 1/8 aluminum lying around, but I don't know if that would
be sturdy enough.
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Cor van de Water
>Add a diode and a fuse (4A or so) to each and you won't
>have to worry about one blowing - you still have 9 others
>to share the load. Heck, install a few more for backup ;-)
>It is preferred if they have current-limit - this will
>automatically share the load, none will supply more than
>its max current.
>In half-load, it may be that some are full-on and some are off,
>but that is not interesting.
It's not quite that simple. Most of these inexpensive supplies have NO cooling;
they are just a closed plastic box with no exposed metal or ventilation slots.
If you overload them, they overheat. When they get hot enough, they either
blow a thermal fuse (and so are dead forever), or shut down until input power
is removed, they are allowd to cool down, and then input power is re-applied.
This is impractical for an EV's DC/DC converter.
Let's say you connect ten 12v 1amp supplies in parallel to your 12v battery.
Whichever one happens to be set for the highest voltage tries to deliver ALL
the load current. It's overloaded; so it shuts down. Whichever one has the
next lowest voltage now tries to do the same, and shuts down. One by one,
they all die.
To make this work, you need supplies that have a true current limited output,
and are rated to operate indefinitely in current limit. Higher-grade supplies,
especially those intended to charge batteries, are more likely to do this. But
if the supplier bought whatever is the cheapest, they won't.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How do I get off the EV e-mail list?
On 1/8/06, David Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hello Lawrence,
> The volume of email is to overwhelming for me to digest and stay informed
> with my other interest.
> Thank you very much
> David
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee,
Agree completely.
However, if they are salvage/free supplies, it may be worth
to try them and see how they respond.
For 15V / 2A supplies, you could add to each supply's output a
diode, 2A fuse AND a series resistor (2W 1/2 Ohm power resistor
for example), which will make them share the load by dropping
their output voltage when current rises.
Since most (cheaper) power supplies have significant internal
resistance, this should happen automatically with those types,
but just to make sure you can add external resistance to match
the outputs of the supplies.
(You can even give a lower resistance value to a higher power
supply or more resitance to a lower Amperage unit.)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 11:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Neg supply for E-meter [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Cor van de Water
>Add a diode and a fuse (4A or so) to each and you won't
>have to worry about one blowing - you still have 9 others
>to share the load. Heck, install a few more for backup ;-)
>It is preferred if they have current-limit - this will
>automatically share the load, none will supply more than
>its max current.
>In half-load, it may be that some are full-on and some are off,
>but that is not interesting.
It's not quite that simple. Most of these inexpensive supplies have NO
cooling;
they are just a closed plastic box with no exposed metal or ventilation
slots.
If you overload them, they overheat. When they get hot enough, they either
blow a thermal fuse (and so are dead forever), or shut down until input
power
is removed, they are allowd to cool down, and then input power is
re-applied.
This is impractical for an EV's DC/DC converter.
Let's say you connect ten 12v 1amp supplies in parallel to your 12v battery.
Whichever one happens to be set for the highest voltage tries to deliver ALL
the load current. It's overloaded; so it shuts down. Whichever one has the
next lowest voltage now tries to do the same, and shuts down. One by one,
they all die.
To make this work, you need supplies that have a true current limited
output,
and are rated to operate indefinitely in current limit. Higher-grade
supplies,
especially those intended to charge batteries, are more likely to do this.
But
if the supplier bought whatever is the cheapest, they won't.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Short update for everyone that is interested in my special
version US Electricar and my progress in getting it on
the road:
I was able to move the car under its own power last night,
after I finished installing the last of the UB121100
batteries (312V nominal as normal in US ELectricar)
The main difference is under the hood - it does not have
the familiar "Dolphin" controller for the 50 kW AC motor,
but instead it has a 3-phase bi-directional inverter
called "Wavedriver".
This was a unique trial for PG&E by Wavedriver Ltd (UK)
to show vehicle-to-grid capability and rapid charging
of batteries in a vehicular application. That's why
it has a 60A 3-phase 208V connection....
Later Wavedriver participated in several commercial
electric bus conversions.
Anyway - I have not yet tried to charge it, wanted to
set the charge parameters before plugging it in.
After seeing the controller go into sleep 5 seconds
every time I turned the key, it dawned on me that it
said the emergency stop was engaged, so I pushed the
orange button on the dash and the controller started
without problem.
There still is a lot to do to make everything road-worthy
- negative (chassis) return is not making contact in the
bed, probably due to the hinging. This means no rear lights
and I will need to install a wire between bed and chassis.
- securing the batteries: They fit with some space in
the boxes and I don't want to smash them into each other
so I will have to be creative with some wood to make sure
they are tight before driving the car.
- caulking the pipe I installed between the existing
and the new battery box, which carries two 2 AWG wires.
- covers for a control box (with contactors) and both
battery box covers need to be installed
- check fan to vent the battery box. Apparently the
high power charging can make even sealed batteries
vent a little - I heard about explosion in the battery
box with sealed batteries when operating Wavedriver
as charger.
- charging: I will need to configure the Wavedriver and
then test if it will take a 3-phase supply from a VFD
(Variable Frequency Drive), which is the only way I have
3-phase in my house (single phase 240V 100A service)
- run a wire from the charging connection box to the
VFD and disconnect the weird 3-phase European AVCON
connector in the grille. (Some day I will go to the
junkyard and buy another grille without hole for the
connector, or find someone that wants to sell me an
AVCON set and wiring instructions how to wire this
into an EV.)
- I think the brake pump comes on way too often, but
a larger reservoir (now only several feet of hose, as
far as I can see) will have to wait.
BTW: I read the report of the S-10 with ground fault due
to battery box more than half full of water.
To prevent this in my vehicle, I drilled a 2/8" hole in
the bottom edge of each side of the battery box, so that
every corner I will turn will throw any water out of the
battery box and it will never fault to ground.
NOTE: I drilled the hole away from the front and rear
wheels, to avoid filling the holes with dirt.
It is 2/3 from the front of the box.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rod and All,
I too am wondeing where my Freedom EV
composite body/chassis will fit? Certianly not in thr Funny
car class I'd hope.
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Announcement: New NEDRA Class Rules
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 20:06:44 -0500
>Hi all,
>
>I think you missed the mark on the new rules. This is
>because I just ended up in
> "Pro Street" class. It has been a daily drive. If I take
>my carbon fiber hood off and my after market air dam off of
>81 VW Rabbit pickup, I guess I am back in Street Conversion
>?
>
>I think the two or more motors should have been in the new
>specs.
>
>If you look look at the fastest cars (John, Otmar,the new
>240 Nisson, the old 280 Z, Hall chevy) they are all two
>motors. I liked to say that I had the fastest single motor
>"SC/b"( That might not be true, but it made me feel good.)
>
>Also this spring I bought a 820I TVR (1987). It was a
>production British sports car and the last year imported.
>It construction is Fiber glass body on a tube frame. If I
>convert it, what class is it in ?
>
>Robert Salem
>
>81 VW pickup 240volts,11" Kostov, Z2K - (14.9 91 mph)
>
>>
>> Hi All,
>> Roderick Wilde here from NEDRA, the National Electric
>> Drag Racing Association. We have been toiling tirelessly
>> on a new set of class rules since late September (yes
>> over three months), and we are now ready to announce the
>>new class definitions.
>> This effort came about as a direct result of discussions
>> on this list of the vagueness of our very brief class
>> descriptions (hey, they worked for much longer than I
>> thought they would). NEDRA has adopted the NHRA (National
>Hot Rod Association) rules and we try to follow the
>> guidelines and examples they set. If you take a look at
>> the NHRA rules you'll see that they are quite long and
>> very detailed. Our new NEDRA class definitions, though
>far more detailed than in the past, are still much simpler
>> and briefer than the NHRA's. This was an intentional
>> decision to keep the class descriptions very easy to
>> understand and the requirements easy to comply with.
>>
>> The really good news is that we have created two
>> entirely new classes! Our original "Street Conversion"
>> class encompassed many different types of cars, yet it
>has been dominated by professional racers (such as Plasma
>> Boy for instance), so we decided to subdivide the class
>> into two new ones. We formed a new class called "Pro
>> Street Conversion" for the "hopped up" type cars. This
>> reopens the original "Street Conversion" class back up
>for the average "daily driver" type cars. This will open up
>> the availability for daily drivers to set new World
>> Records during the exciting and expanded 2006 racing
>> season. Former "Street Conversion" record holders that
>no longer fit in the new criteria of "Street Conversion"
>> will be moved up to "Pro Street".
>>
>> IMPORTANT NOTE: No one loses any World Records! Your
>> record may simply be reclassified to a different class.
>> We hope that does not hurt too many people's feelings
>>out there.
>> The other new class is on the other end of the spectrum
>> and is called "Extreme Street" (XS) for excessive of
>> course. This is basically an "anything goes within NHRA
>> regulations" class designed for street bodied, ground up
>, purpose built race cars with plastic/carbon/fiberglass
>> bodies and a custom chassis. This is basically the
>> "funny car" class. John and I first discussed the
>>formation of this class over six years ago
>> Please note the "Spirit of the Class" definitions listed
>> before each class. This is a plain English paragraph
>> describing what the class is all about and was included
>> to assist you in understanding our intent for the class
>and categorizing your vehicle within the new class
>>structure.
>> Check all the new NEDRA class rules here:
>> http://www.nedra.com/class_rules.html
>>
>> Feel free to contact the rules committee with your
>> comments. The rules committee consisted of::
>> Brian Hall, John Wayland, Ken Trough, and Roderick
>>Wilde.
>> I thank all of the rules committee members for their
>> tireless work on what sometimes seemed to be an endless
>>nightmare!
>> Roderick Wilde
>> NEDRA President
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------
>> *The Spirit of the Street Conversion Class*
>>
>> The Street Conversion (SC) class is for basic street
>> legal and licensed conversions that have not been
>> modified for racing. "Conversions" are vehicles that
>> have been mass-produced but were NOT originally
>manufactured as electric vehicles. This is the class for
>> the "daily driver" and DOT tires are required.
>>
>> *The Spirit of the Pro Street Class*
>>
>> The Pro Street Conversion class (PS) is for street legal
>> and licensed conversions that have been modified for
>> racing use while still maintaining their street
>> appearance and drivability. "Conversions" are vehicles
>> that have been mass-produced but were NOT originally
>manufactured as electric vehicles. Racing slicks are
>>allowed.
>> *The Spirit of the Modified Conversion Class*
>>
>> Class MC: (Modified Street Conversion) The intent of
>> this class is for street bodied and chassised vehicles
>> that are heavily modified for racing. This class does
>> not require vehicles to be licensed for street use and
>>racing slicks are allowed.
>> *The Spirit of the Xtreme Street Class*
>>
>> Class XS: (Xtreme Street) The intent of this class is
>> for street bodied vehicles that are built as all out
>> race vehicles and differ from SC, PS and MC classes, all
>> of which require stock production bodies and frames.
>This is the class for custom tube chassis or other highly
>> modified chassis vehicles. This class does not require
>> vehicles to be licensed for street use and racing slicks
>>are allowed.
>
--- End Message ---
