EV Digest 5103
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Pack voltage peripheral switches
by kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Another test of the NiCd Sparrow
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Stripped Terminal
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Do/Did Edison Batteries emit Hydrogen gas?Questions
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Fluke Fluky?
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Looking for Rich Brown
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Stripped Terminal
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Fluke Fluky?
by "Sean Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Do/Did Edison Batteries emit Hydrogen gas?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Do/Did Edison Batteries emit Hydrogen gas?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Fluke Fluky?
by Randall Prentice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Bad floodies??
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) 1231C and Lynch motor
by TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Used AGM batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Stripped Terminal
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Used AGM batteries
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Fluke Fluky?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) Re: Do/Did Edison Batteries emit Hydrogen gas?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Stripped Terminal
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Battery Beach Burnout
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Battery Beach Burnout
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Sep Ex - Is it really as bad as I make it out to be?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Bad floodies??
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> I hooked up my modified bad boy charger (~180 VDC) to the ceramic heater...
> The heater drew 7 amps on the low setting, 14 on high.
Minor point. If your 'bad boy' charger has no output filter capacitor, then
the voltage isn't DC but rather pulsating AC. This automatically extinguishes
the arc at every zero crossing (every 8 msec). Connect a big filter capacitor
or the pack itself to get true DC.
Yeah, I hooked up a big cap for the test, then took it out again afterwards.
The process was actually done to test 3 components, the charger,
the heater, and the relays. I'm thinking the capacitor won't be of any
assistance in battery charging, and should only make the power factor
worse -I could be wrong about that- so I took it out after checking the voltage
and running the relay test. I'm trying to take the approach of
working out all the little bits of my project before installing them in the
truck. I didn't want to put the batteries in the truck and connect them
together as a pack until I confirmed that the bad boy actually would produce
the voltage needed to charge them, so I don't have actual "pack
voltage" just yet. The only part of the test which was interesting was when
the relay arced and melted - definitely no automatic extinguishing
there! The charger produced the voltage I was expecting and the cheap ceramic
heater worked fine with the element hooked up to 180V and
a 12 volt fan replacing the AC unit in the original.
Steve Kluge
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This test was pretty much the same as the last. Back and forth for
about 1 mile on my road, cruising at 50mph most of the
time. Slightly rolling hills.
I had adjusted the parking brake so it didn't drag so much. (It was
definitely dragging last time.)
11.3 miles, 2.53 KWH, so it's 223 WH/Mile. Still rather high. I
need to figure out what's causing this.
16.3AH used.
EMeter said 40% remaining, even though I have it set for 40AH.
Probably due to the discharge floor and Peukerts settings that need
to be changed.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I took a closer look at the terminal threads, and it appears that the
outermost threads are stripped, and that the bottommost threads are ok. If
I put the bolt in by itself, it seems to eventually engage the bottommost
threads and get tight. But once I put the lug between the bolt and
terminal, I think that the bolt doesn't get long enough to reach the bottom
threads. Tomorrow I'll try buying a slightly longer bolt. They appear to
be M8 x 1.25 -- can anyone else with TS cells confirm that dimension?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 3:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Stripped Terminal
Bill Dennis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The bolt on one of my TS cell terminals won't tighten up.
> Bolt goes in, but it comes to a point where it won't tighten
> any further. What are my choices on getting it fixed?
Does "won't tighten any further" mean the bolt keeps turning but doesn't
get tighter (i.e. threads are stripped), or that the bolt stops turning
but hasn't gone in far enough to hold the lug tightly to the terminal?
If stripped, then you have to drill and tap the hole. If you want to
continue using the same size bolt, you need to do as Neon John suggests
and use a helicoil insert. If you don't mind using a slightly larger
bolt for this one connection, then you can just drill and tap the hole
for a slightly larger diameter bolt.
If the bolt stops turning before the lug is held securely to the
terminal, then either the bolt is a bit too long or there may be
something in the hole preventing the bolt from tightening all the way,
or either the bolt or hole threads may be damaged. You can easily
inspect the bolt threads once you remove it; if damaged, you can clean
them up by chasing them with a die, or more likely simply replace the
bolt. You can cleanup the hole threads by chasing them with an
appropriate tap. A jeweler's screwdriver or similarly narrow, pointed
tool can be used to clean out anything that might have accumulated in
the bottom of the hole.
As long as the bolt is going far enough into the hole to engage several
threads, the simplest workaround may be to simply put a(nother) washer
under the head of the bolt and see if it tightens up satisfactorily
then.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The nickel batteries are interesting.
The logical conclusion of this chemistry is the nickel-hydrogen battery,
used in satellites for years. Only now are they starting to be super
ceded by lithium polymer since many satellites are now low earth orbit
and the viewpoint is that the satellites will be useless(outdated) in 10
years anyway.
The nickel-metalhydride is the way of getting rid of the pressure
vessel, but if people are thinking of hydrogen tanks, what the heck,
lets try them.
I talked to the guy at eagle picher and they are being de-classified to
avoid the "traffic in arms" rules.
Unbelieveable cycle ability because the plate is not streesed and the
electrolyte doesn't attack the current collector or electorde. These are
in a inconel pressure vessel and the pressure acts on a transducer. This
can tell you SOC. They have units with lots of cells in series in them
already.
The problem was that the chemistry was designed around space vehicles
and at 70 degrees F the capacity drops off quickly. I never got an
answer to the question if this was loss of charge capacity while warm or
an actuall loss like a pukert effect. I think my discussions with the
engineer were around lowering the pressure in the vessel to change the
temp range of operation for the cell. At one point the cells actually
cool during discharge.
http://www.eaglepicher.com/EaglePicherInternet/Technologies/Power_Group/Space_Applications/Products_Services/
look here at SPV SAR10081
80LB 10" X 25.2" 60ah 27.2Volt
Although they rate it at 70ah @C/2, they also say @10 degrees C :-(
the white paper shows 1000cycles to 70%DOD to accumulate wear and then
100 cycles to 40%DOD then checked
1.1C charge and 1.2C discharge and they got 20,000 cycles before there
was a .05 volt drop at end of charge
but all test were at zero degrees C :-(
I fear noone is gonna actually commercialize this product for
teresterial use. Who wants to sell a product that the people won't need
to replace? You can't raise the price, people won't buy, so they have to
figure out a way of planned obselescne. Probably require "tanks" to be
re-certified every 3 years LOL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As Jimmy Stewart said in "It's a Wonderful Life," -- "Somebody's off his
nut!" Here's the situation. Last night I had a circuit in the kitchen go
dead, so I poked around with my Fluke 77 in AC mode, and even after I
disconnected wires from the receptacle and turned off the main circuit
breaker, I was reading 3 volts or so between hot and neutral, so I figured I
had a ground fault that was tripping the GFI. I took the countertop apart
to look at the wires in the wall (island), but couldn't find any problem.
So then I just replaced the GFI and, voila!, everything worked. So why was
the Fluke reading 3V AC?
Then tonight, I finally got all the TS cells hooked up in my conversion. JI
measured if there was any voltage between the pack and the chassis. To my
surprise, there was: about 1.25V. I went from cell to cell, measuring
between it and the chassis. Each reading was around .05V less than the
previous cell. Finally I came to a cell in the back of the car that read 0V
between itself and the chassis. But I've looked and looked, and there is no
way that anything from that cell is touching the body of the car.
Any ideas what's happening?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone from the San Jose area have contact information for Rich Brown,
owner of a world record holding red RX7 Mazda. If so please contact me off
list.
Roderick Wilde
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.20/233 - Release Date: 1/18/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Definitely M8.
20mm is too long.
I use 20mm bolts where I have double connectors for extra conductivity.
Yeah, that's right - extra conductivity - lower resistance - had nothing
to do with the fact that I didn't measure the depth of the terminal hole
and bought too many 20mm bolts...
15 or 16mm is about right for the standard braided connector and spring
washer that TS supply.
(I think they supplied 12 or 13mm bolts to me.)
Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Dennis
> Sent: Thursday, 19 January 2006 12:48 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Stripped Terminal
>
>
> I took a closer look at the terminal threads, and it appears that the
> outermost threads are stripped, and that the bottommost
> threads are ok. If
> I put the bolt in by itself, it seems to eventually engage
> the bottommost
> threads and get tight. But once I put the lug between the bolt and
> terminal, I think that the bolt doesn't get long enough to
> reach the bottom
> threads. Tomorrow I'll try buying a slightly longer bolt.
> They appear to
> be M8 x 1.25 -- can anyone else with TS cells confirm that dimension?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Roger Stockton
> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 3:27 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Stripped Terminal
>
> Bill Dennis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > The bolt on one of my TS cell terminals won't tighten up.
> > Bolt goes in, but it comes to a point where it won't tighten
> > any further. What are my choices on getting it fixed?
>
> Does "won't tighten any further" mean the bolt keeps turning
> but doesn't
> get tighter (i.e. threads are stripped), or that the bolt
> stops turning
> but hasn't gone in far enough to hold the lug tightly to the terminal?
>
> If stripped, then you have to drill and tap the hole. If you want to
> continue using the same size bolt, you need to do as Neon
> John suggests
> and use a helicoil insert. If you don't mind using a slightly larger
> bolt for this one connection, then you can just drill and tap the hole
> for a slightly larger diameter bolt.
>
> If the bolt stops turning before the lug is held securely to the
> terminal, then either the bolt is a bit too long or there may be
> something in the hole preventing the bolt from tightening all the way,
> or either the bolt or hole threads may be damaged. You can easily
> inspect the bolt threads once you remove it; if damaged, you can clean
> them up by chasing them with a die, or more likely simply replace the
> bolt. You can cleanup the hole threads by chasing them with an
> appropriate tap. A jeweler's screwdriver or similarly narrow, pointed
> tool can be used to clean out anything that might have accumulated in
> the bottom of the hole.
>
> As long as the bolt is going far enough into the hole to
> engage several
> threads, the simplest workaround may be to simply put a(nother) washer
> under the head of the bolt and see if it tightens up satisfactorily
> then.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
It's likely not the meter at all. What you're seeing is just pieces of
metal floating up to certain voltages and the meter hardly disturbs it do
to the super-high impedance input. In the case of the wires in the
kitchen, each of the wires acts as an antenna (well, mostly the hot wire
since when the breaker is off, it's disconnected from anything). The wire
gets "influenced" by all the 60 Hz noise in your house and gets a voltage
induced.
As for the car, there is likely some small leakage path from dirt or
something that is pulling the car battery towards one end of the pack, so
you can measure a slight voltage difference that the meter can detect, but
would not be able to support any sort of load. You could test this theory
by putting a 10 kOhm resistor across the leads and re-measure.
Sean Taylor
Urbana, IL
On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:01:07 -0600, Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
As Jimmy Stewart said in "It's a Wonderful Life," -- "Somebody's off his
nut!" Here's the situation. Last night I had a circuit in the kitchen
go
dead, so I poked around with my Fluke 77 in AC mode, and even after I
disconnected wires from the receptacle and turned off the main circuit
breaker, I was reading 3 volts or so between hot and neutral, so I
figured I
had a ground fault that was tripping the GFI. I took the countertop
apart
to look at the wires in the wall (island), but couldn't find any problem.
So then I just replaced the GFI and, voila!, everything worked. So why
was
the Fluke reading 3V AC?
Then tonight, I finally got all the TS cells hooked up in my
conversion. JI
measured if there was any voltage between the pack and the chassis. To
my
surprise, there was: about 1.25V. I went from cell to cell, measuring
between it and the chassis. Each reading was around .05V less than the
previous cell. Finally I came to a cell in the back of the car that
read 0V
between itself and the chassis. But I've looked and looked, and there
is no
way that anything from that cell is touching the body of the car.
Any ideas what's happening?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> However that being said aren't some of these cells a hundred years old and
> still working at full capacity?
They can *if* they are maintained properly. The two big issues with the old
Edison cells were that you had to replace the separators every few years
(they were pig intestines :-). And, the KOH electrolyte would carbonate
(absorb CO2 from the air), and so also needed to be replaced.
They had glass cases, which lasted forever if not broken. The plates were also
bolted together, and so easy to disassemble for putting in new separators.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Myles Twete wrote:
> Roland noted that Edison Batteries emit no hydrogen on charge/discharge:
> "On discharge oxygen is transferred from the positive (nickel) to the
> negative (iron) plates, Its serves merely as a carrier of oxygen between
> the plates. On charge the transfer is in the opposite direction.
> Therefore there is no hydrogen release."
>
> Meanwhile Lee asserts:
> "Yes, while charging. Quite a lot, actually. Excessive gassing and high
> water
> usage was a shortcoming of the nickel-iron (Edison) cell."
>
> So...which is it and where's the evidence?
Hmm... I don't have any references to quote and was going by memory. But, the
fact that they use a LOT of water is a good indication that they are
electrolyzing it into oxygen AND HYDROGEN.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This a problem with high impediance meters.
Capacitance and surface moisture can create very high resistance or
capacitive (For AC) paths.
If you use a "Normal" multimeter it will read zero (I mean a cheap dial
multi-meter).
One thing you can do is to change to resistance range on Multimeter (Make
sure you measure DC & AC volts first) and take a reading - both ways round
(eg swap leads around) this will either give a fixed reading (-ve) in one
direction or a meaningful resistance.
This is one use for a Megger but they can be a little hazardous around
semiconductors, I wouldn't recommend using one on any wires connected to
Controller/DC-DC or other electronics.
Get your resistance reading from Pack to ground and if the reading is
believable be content.
Regards
Randall Prentice
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Dennis
> Sent: Thursday, 19 January 2006 3:01 p.m.
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Fluke Fluky?
>
>
> As Jimmy Stewart said in "It's a Wonderful Life," --
> "Somebody's off his nut!" Here's the situation. Last night
> I had a circuit in the kitchen go dead, so I poked around
> with my Fluke 77 in AC mode, and even after I disconnected
> wires from the receptacle and turned off the main circuit
> breaker, I was reading 3 volts or so between hot and neutral,
> so I figured I had a ground fault that was tripping the GFI.
> I took the countertop apart to look at the wires in the wall
> (island), but couldn't find any problem. So then I just
> replaced the GFI and, voila!, everything worked. So why was
> the Fluke reading 3V AC?
>
> Then tonight, I finally got all the TS cells hooked up in my
> conversion. JI measured if there was any voltage between the
> pack and the chassis. To my surprise, there was: about
> 1.25V. I went from cell to cell, measuring between it and
> the chassis. Each reading was around .05V less than the
> previous cell. Finally I came to a cell in the back of the
> car that read 0V between itself and the chassis. But I've
> looked and looked, and there is no way that anything from
> that cell is touching the body of the car.
>
> Any ideas what's happening?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike & Paula Willmon wrote:
> **If the capacity loss (in cold temps) in an AGM or Gel is not noticed as
> much compared to a wet cell if you stay over 50% SOC then it should be a
> measurable effect.
It is measurable. The percent increase in internal resistance when the battery
gets cold is very similar between floodeds and sealed batteries. What
confuses people is that the East Penn gels have about 1/2 the resistance, and
AGMs like the Hawkers have about 1/4 the resistance of a flooded golf cart
battery -- at ANY temperature. That's just how these particular batteries are
built.
Suppose you build an EV with a 120v pack of golf cart batteries. Each one has
about 5 milliohms of resistance at 75 deg.F. It takes 20 6v batteries to get
120v, so your pack resistance is 20 x 0.005 = 0.1 ohms. With all that weight,
your EV probably draws 100 amps. So your voltage sags to 120v - (100a x
0.1ohm) = 110v.
Discharge them to 50% SOC, and the resistance doubles to 0.2 ohms and the
voltage sags to 100v. Now chill them down to 35 deg.F, and the resistance
doubles again, to 0.4 ohms. Now your voltage sags to 80 volts and your EV
becomes *very* slow and sluggish!
Suppose you put a 120v pack of Optimas in the same EV. Each has about 2.5
milliohms of resistance at 75 deg.F. It only takes 10 12v batteries to get
120v, so your pack resistance is 10 x 0.0025 = 0.025 ohms. Since this pack
weighs 1/3rd as much, your EV only draws 70 amps. Your voltage sags to 120v -
(75a x 0.025ohm) = 118 volts.
Discharge them to 50% SOC, and again the resistance doubles to 0.05 ohms. The
voltage sags to 120v - (75a x 0.05ohms) = 116 volts. Chill them down to 35
deg.F and the resistance doubles again, to 0.1 ohms. Now your voltage sags to
112 volts. Much worse, but *still* better than the golf cart batteries were
even when warm and fully charged!
> I agree that once you get past 50% time seems to
> compress and you really start losing, no matter what kind of battery you
> have. For my conversion I'm planning to try to keep the pack at 50% SOC or
> greater to save the cycles.
Agreed. If you keep going, discharging them deeper and/or getting them colder,
you'll discover that things get worse fast! Doubling the resistance again
causes quite a noticeable increase in voltage sag, just like it did with
floodeds.
I've had cases where I discharged my 95ah AGMs to 80% DOD at 0 deg.F. They
couldn't even deliver 5 amps without the voltage sagging below 1.75v/cell
(which would be 90v on a 120v pack). And, my EVs with 220ah golf cart
batteries under the same conditions are only good for 10 amps.
So, it's not that sealed batteries are any better with respect to cold; it's
just that they are usually built to have a lower internal resistance to start
with.
> **I wasn't so much referring to the resistance to freezing as the effect on
> the battery IF they froze. If you freeze an open battery its sulfate city.
Usually, freezing it breaks the case. Or if the case avoids breaking, then the
ice swells the plates apart so far that it breaks the interconnects.
*Some* sealed batteries have very strong cases, to withstand internal pressure
(Hawkers, for example can withstand 40 psi). Just like a pop bottle left in
the freezer, the case can be strong enough to keep the contents from freezing
even though they are well below their normal freezing point. This is the case
at work; nothing to do with the electrolyte or flooded vs. gel or AGM.
*Other* sealed batteries have the same flimsy cases as any flooded batteries
(like my Concordes, which vent at 0.5 psi). They will freeze just as easily
as an unsealed flooded battery.
> A sealed battery with uniform electrolyte concentration always in contact
> with the plates will not sulfate as much and will recover much more readily.
I think this is a myth. The acid mixes pretty thoroughly on any type of
battery; flooded, gel, or AGM. You have to create some pretty strange
circumstances to get stratification. Just normal gassing and bouncing around
while driving does a pretty good job of mixing.
> Again to emphasize not so much the resistance to freezing but the effects
> on the life of the battery when it gets that cold.
I have found that cold only harms lead-acid batteries a) if they freeze, or b)
if you load them heavily enough to pull them below 1.75v/cell under load. In
practice, this mean you have to maintain a higher state of charge, and can't
load them as heavily when cold.
> I asked him if he planned to run year round. Someone stated to him...
> that it would be better to heat and insulate rather than trickle charge
> through the cold.
It wasn't me, but I agree. Heating a battery via overcharging is a bad idea.
> And since you live where it gets cold too, do you insulate your batteries?
> If so do you have any problems keeping them cool in the summer? I was
> thinking of a removable insulated cover for the batteries in the back of
> my truck.
Yes, you have it right. We routinely see sub-zero temperatures, for days or
even weeks at a time. I have always kept my batteries in insulated boxes,
with about 1" of styrafoam insulation. If I drive and charge every day, just
the waste heat from the batteries themselves is enough to keep them warm.
Otherwise, it takes 50-100 watts of heat to keep them warm.
In the summer, I just remove the insulation from the cover of the battery
boxes. Since we don't get hot weather in the summer, that has been
sufficient.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can a Curtis 1231C controller be used with a Lynch
motor? If so, where could I find a wiring diagram for
it?
TiM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sean Taylor wrote:
> I recently stumbled upon an auction on ebay for some used AGM batteries:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6029977993
>
> So, there are a couple questions: 1) Is this worthwhile? Are 2 or 3 year
> old AGMs that were in float duty that "used"?
Very often, the charger simply held the batteries at 13.5v or so continuously.
An AGM or gel will slowly die from loss of water and grid corrosion under
these conditions. So, a 2-3 year old battery will exhibit a weight loss, and
have excessively high internal resistance. Not a good deal for an EV!
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 18:48:20 -0700, "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>I took a closer look at the terminal threads, and it appears that the
>outermost threads are stripped, and that the bottommost threads are ok. If
>I put the bolt in by itself, it seems to eventually engage the bottommost
>threads and get tight. But once I put the lug between the bolt and
>terminal, I think that the bolt doesn't get long enough to reach the bottom
>threads. Tomorrow I'll try buying a slightly longer bolt. They appear to
>be M8 x 1.25 -- can anyone else with TS cells confirm that dimension?
It'll just strip again. Go ahead and get some M8 Helicoils from your
friendly local auto parts store and fix it permanently. Get some red
loctite while you're there and coat the helicoil on the outside before
you insert it. This will lock the coil in place.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah I looked up info from my research on this seller. I confirmed the
battery type with him. It was a completely inappropriate battery for an
EV or the solar setup he said they used to be a part. Even though it's
an AGM it was only designed for long term standby power, for like
backing up a server. It won't sustain deep cycles, won't take many
partial cycles either. Cheapest thing ever made, almost more like a
primary battery.
But they are DataSafe HR500 batteries. The mfg data sheet didn't say
much so I asked the mfg directly. They said this type of battery is a
standby UPS thing, wasn't intended for heavy duty or repeated deep
cycle use and will not hold up well under this duty. Rated life past
70% discharge is only 30 cycles. I thought AGMs were pretty much
universally great but that's what the mfg stated.
Danny
Lee Hart wrote:
Sean Taylor wrote:
I recently stumbled upon an auction on ebay for some used AGM batteries:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6029977993
So, there are a couple questions: 1) Is this worthwhile? Are 2 or 3 year
old AGMs that were in float duty that "used"?
Very often, the charger simply held the batteries at 13.5v or so continuously.
An AGM or gel will slowly die from loss of water and grid corrosion under
these conditions. So, a 2-3 year old battery will exhibit a weight loss, and
have excessively high internal resistance. Not a good deal for an EV!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Replace your battery in the Fluke!
It's happen to me with flaky readings.
Pedroman
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 9:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Fluke Fluky?
As Jimmy Stewart said in "It's a Wonderful Life," -- "Somebody's off his
nut!" Here's the situation. Last night I had a circuit in the kitchen go
dead, so I poked around with my Fluke 77 in AC mode, and even after I
disconnected wires from the receptacle and turned off the main circuit
breaker, I was reading 3 volts or so between hot and neutral, so I figured I
had a ground fault that was tripping the GFI. I took the countertop apart
to look at the wires in the wall (island), but couldn't find any problem. So
then I just replaced the GFI and, voila!, everything worked. So why was the
Fluke reading 3V AC?
Then tonight, I finally got all the TS cells hooked up in my conversion. JI
measured if there was any voltage between the pack and the chassis. To my
surprise, there was: about 1.25V. I went from cell to cell, measuring
between it and the chassis. Each reading was around .05V less than the
previous cell. Finally I came to a cell in the back of the car that read 0V
between itself and the chassis. But I've looked and looked, and there is no
way that anything from that cell is touching the body of the car.
Any ideas what's happening?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
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On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:40:43 -0500, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>> However that being said aren't some of these cells a hundred years old and
>> still working at full capacity?
>
>They can *if* they are maintained properly. The two big issues with the old
>Edison cells were that you had to replace the separators every few years
>(they were pig intestines :-). And, the KOH electrolyte would carbonate
>(absorb CO2 from the air), and so also needed to be replaced.
>
>They had glass cases, which lasted forever if not broken. The plates were also
>bolted together, and so easy to disassemble for putting in new separators.
No. At least Edison's weren't. A photo of a salesman's sample from
the Henry Ford Museum:
http://www.johngsbbq.com/Neon_John_site/RV/Trips/henry_ford_museum_2004/slides/IMG_1576.html
The legend reads "Edison Nickel-Iron-Alkaline Storage Battery.
Salesman's Display Sample with Storage Case. (C. 1900)"
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
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10:00 P.M.
Bill,
I just measured one of the bolts (from my bin of spare hardware and cell
interconnects). It is M8 by 15 mm long (threaded part under the head). I
remember when I did my connecting of the 200 A-hr cells 2 1/2 years ago that
these bolts were too short, and I risked stripping the threads since the
bolt gripped too few threads if the washer and lock washer were used with
the TS braided interconnects. consequently, I installed most without the
lock washers, rather than risking that. The next longer bolt available
might be too long unless extra washers or terminals for BMS, etc., would be
used.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:48 PM
Subject: RE: Stripped Terminal
I took a closer look at the terminal threads, and it appears that the
outermost threads are stripped, and that the bottommost threads are ok.
If
I put the bolt in by itself, it seems to eventually engage the bottommost
threads and get tight. But once I put the lug between the bolt and
terminal, I think that the bolt doesn't get long enough to reach the
bottom
threads. Tomorrow I'll try buying a slightly longer bolt. They appear to
be M8 x 1.25 -- can anyone else with TS cells confirm that dimension?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
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Since the rules are so much different than they used to be, have you folks
figured out how the previous record holders will fit into these new classes?
If you don't have the record books all figured out in time, how will you
know if the competitors at this race have set a record?
Isn't it against the NEDRA charter to issue new rules without a 30 day
member comment period?
At 09:02 PM 1/17/2006, you wrote:
It was good to hear that Matt worked out some Gremlins before the
event so lets all hope for some fast slips for him this Friday. Sounds
as if the hard work will show more fruit with a new 100 MPH member this
weekend. Maybe even give Wayland a run for his money by Joliet??
Yeah. That's really good news. I read that there were about 15 competitors
announced so far. That is really fantastic! I sure wish I could make it.
I'll have to settle for Chip's play by play like every one else. 8^)
Also, let me remind those who are still on the fence about attending that
we have two new street classes and two new voltage divisions in NEDRA and
that means a lot of new records waiting to be set. One of the most
exciting opportunities lies in the new Street Conversion "daily driver"
class. Never before have daily drivers had a protected class to compete
in. Now they will be able to race against their peers instead of being
stacked up against the "pro-street" racing teams.
We added two new voltage classes on the high end so that all the new
higher voltage machines are not lumped together. The technology is
advancing and we are trying to be responsive to the vehicles that are
showing up at the events as well as planning for the vehicles we expect to
show up in the future.
The Battery Beach Burnout is the first opportunity for these new classes
to be utilized and the new records to be set. Good luck to all the competitors!
To review the new class descriptions, check out the relevant NEDRA page:
http://nedra.com/class_rules.html
-Ken Trough
Public Relations Director, NEDRA
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YO BILL!!
Wake and smell the changes...
What a way to drag your feet!!!!
Get with it or Stay on the porch.
Finally NEDRA is trying to make some improvements...
LET them.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: Battery Beach Burnout
> Since the rules are so much different than they used to be, have you folks
> figured out how the previous record holders will fit into these new
classes?
>
> If you don't have the record books all figured out in time, how will you
> know if the competitors at this race have set a record?
>
> Isn't it against the NEDRA charter to issue new rules without a 30 day
> member comment period?
>
> At 09:02 PM 1/17/2006, you wrote:
> >> It was good to hear that Matt worked out some Gremlins before the
> >> event so lets all hope for some fast slips for him this Friday. Sounds
> >> as if the hard work will show more fruit with a new 100 MPH member this
> >> weekend. Maybe even give Wayland a run for his money by Joliet??
> >
> >Yeah. That's really good news. I read that there were about 15
competitors
> >announced so far. That is really fantastic! I sure wish I could make it.
> >I'll have to settle for Chip's play by play like every one else. 8^)
> >
> >Also, let me remind those who are still on the fence about attending that
> >we have two new street classes and two new voltage divisions in NEDRA and
> >that means a lot of new records waiting to be set. One of the most
> >exciting opportunities lies in the new Street Conversion "daily driver"
> >class. Never before have daily drivers had a protected class to compete
> >in. Now they will be able to race against their peers instead of being
> >stacked up against the "pro-street" racing teams.
> >
> >We added two new voltage classes on the high end so that all the new
> >higher voltage machines are not lumped together. The technology is
> >advancing and we are trying to be responsive to the vehicles that are
> >showing up at the events as well as planning for the vehicles we expect
to
> >show up in the future.
> >
> >The Battery Beach Burnout is the first opportunity for these new classes
> >to be utilized and the new records to be set. Good luck to all the
competitors!
> >
> >To review the new class descriptions, check out the relevant NEDRA page:
> >
> >http://nedra.com/class_rules.html
> >
> >
> >-Ken Trough
> >Public Relations Director, NEDRA
>
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
There have been some recent posts concerning a 7" x 15" lift
truck motor that was thought to be a series wound motor, but
is actually a sep ex motor.
Based on size and weight, I estimate it is at least a 10 HP
nominal motor and can be pushed higher intermittently. Ideal
for a small EV - or is it?
Another thought-
One way to control a sep-ex motor is to have it "idle" like an ICE. You
apply full field current (don't exceed the max rated voltage of the
field or it could fry) and then power the armature with a contactor
(never allow the armature to be powered with the field off or it will
quickly over-rev.) Max field creates the minimum rpm, which may be an
acceptable idle speed. As the field is weakened the rpm tries to go up.
The armature will draw more current to try and make this happen. Regen
is automatic, just back off the throttle. There is no battery current
limit (don't stuff it to the floor from a stop.)
The throttle behavior is not very ICE like, the position of the
throttle tries to set a motor rpm. On the plus side, you only have to
control the limited field current instead of the full motor current.
Paul "neon" G.
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Well stated, and a good comparison. I guess the lesson would be that if you
are going to drive your batteries cold you would want them with low internal
resistance which is typically, but not always, one type of VRLA. This would
be to maintain any kind of decent performance. You could I guess find
flooded batteries designed with a lower internal resistance, but because of
the plate design to obtain this you would give up cycle life (which is the
same trade of going to the typical VRLA).
So I guess I would believe that if you planned to keep your batteries warm
in cold weather (heated, insulated) you could maintain the performance of
either type of battery equally as well. From what I gather in talking to
people lately, its not all that difficult to d owith a moderate amount of
insulation. So then you're just down to the benefit of lighter less
maintenance batteries in the VRLA's compared to the cheaper higher capacity
flooded cells.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 6:50 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Bad floodies??
Mike & Paula Willmon wrote:
> **If the capacity loss (in cold temps) in an AGM or Gel is not noticed as
> much compared to a wet cell if you stay over 50% SOC then it should be a
> measurable effect.
It is measurable. The percent increase in internal resistance when the
battery
gets cold is very similar between floodeds and sealed batteries. What
confuses people is that the East Penn gels have about 1/2 the resistance,
and
AGMs like the Hawkers have about 1/4 the resistance of a flooded golf cart
battery -- at ANY temperature. That's just how these particular batteries
are
built.
Suppose you build an EV with a 120v pack of golf cart batteries. Each one
has
about 5 milliohms of resistance at 75 deg.F. It takes 20 6v batteries to get
120v, so your pack resistance is 20 x 0.005 = 0.1 ohms. With all that
weight,
your EV probably draws 100 amps. So your voltage sags to 120v - (100a x
0.1ohm) = 110v.
Discharge them to 50% SOC, and the resistance doubles to 0.2 ohms and the
voltage sags to 100v. Now chill them down to 35 deg.F, and the resistance
doubles again, to 0.4 ohms. Now your voltage sags to 80 volts and your EV
becomes *very* slow and sluggish!
Suppose you put a 120v pack of Optimas in the same EV. Each has about 2.5
milliohms of resistance at 75 deg.F. It only takes 10 12v batteries to get
120v, so your pack resistance is 10 x 0.0025 = 0.025 ohms. Since this pack
weighs 1/3rd as much, your EV only draws 70 amps. Your voltage sags to
120v -
(75a x 0.025ohm) = 118 volts.
Discharge them to 50% SOC, and again the resistance doubles to 0.05 ohms.
The
voltage sags to 120v - (75a x 0.05ohms) = 116 volts. Chill them down to 35
deg.F and the resistance doubles again, to 0.1 ohms. Now your voltage sags
to
112 volts. Much worse, but *still* better than the golf cart batteries were
even when warm and fully charged!
> I agree that once you get past 50% time seems to
> compress and you really start losing, no matter what kind of battery you
> have. For my conversion I'm planning to try to keep the pack at 50% SOC or
> greater to save the cycles.
Agreed. If you keep going, discharging them deeper and/or getting them
colder,
you'll discover that things get worse fast! Doubling the resistance again
causes quite a noticeable increase in voltage sag, just like it did with
floodeds.
I've had cases where I discharged my 95ah AGMs to 80% DOD at 0 deg.F. They
couldn't even deliver 5 amps without the voltage sagging below 1.75v/cell
(which would be 90v on a 120v pack). And, my EVs with 220ah golf cart
batteries under the same conditions are only good for 10 amps.
So, it's not that sealed batteries are any better with respect to cold; it's
just that they are usually built to have a lower internal resistance to
start
with.
> **I wasn't so much referring to the resistance to freezing as the effect
on
> the battery IF they froze. If you freeze an open battery its sulfate
city.
Usually, freezing it breaks the case. Or if the case avoids breaking, then
the
ice swells the plates apart so far that it breaks the interconnects.
*Some* sealed batteries have very strong cases, to withstand internal
pressure
(Hawkers, for example can withstand 40 psi). Just like a pop bottle left in
the freezer, the case can be strong enough to keep the contents from
freezing
even though they are well below their normal freezing point. This is the
case
at work; nothing to do with the electrolyte or flooded vs. gel or AGM.
*Other* sealed batteries have the same flimsy cases as any flooded batteries
(like my Concordes, which vent at 0.5 psi). They will freeze just as easily
as an unsealed flooded battery.
> A sealed battery with uniform electrolyte concentration always in contact
> with the plates will not sulfate as much and will recover much more
readily.
I think this is a myth. The acid mixes pretty thoroughly on any type of
battery; flooded, gel, or AGM. You have to create some pretty strange
circumstances to get stratification. Just normal gassing and bouncing around
while driving does a pretty good job of mixing.
> Again to emphasize not so much the resistance to freezing but the effects
> on the life of the battery when it gets that cold.
I have found that cold only harms lead-acid batteries a) if they freeze, or
b)
if you load them heavily enough to pull them below 1.75v/cell under load. In
practice, this mean you have to maintain a higher state of charge, and can't
load them as heavily when cold.
> I asked him if he planned to run year round. Someone stated to him...
> that it would be better to heat and insulate rather than trickle charge
> through the cold.
It wasn't me, but I agree. Heating a battery via overcharging is a bad idea.
> And since you live where it gets cold too, do you insulate your batteries?
> If so do you have any problems keeping them cool in the summer? I was
> thinking of a removable insulated cover for the batteries in the back of
> my truck.
Yes, you have it right. We routinely see sub-zero temperatures, for days or
even weeks at a time. I have always kept my batteries in insulated boxes,
with about 1" of styrafoam insulation. If I drive and charge every day, just
the waste heat from the batteries themselves is enough to keep them warm.
Otherwise, it takes 50-100 watts of heat to keep them warm.
In the summer, I just remove the insulation from the cover of the battery
boxes. Since we don't get hot weather in the summer, that has been
sufficient.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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