EV Digest 5624
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Hosing down batteries
by Jimmy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Powerglide 2-speed Transmission
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Batteries / Balancing (4 E Cobra)
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Danny's Contentment
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Lectra,streamliner fairing & Schwinn Chopper have to go.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Taurus EV
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: e-volks
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Taurus EV
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Wikipedia EV conversion
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Taurus EV
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: NEDRA to attend RPM Show at Indy "Woodburn at PIR?"???
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Hosing down batteries, Go For It.? IF, see below
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
by "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Taurus EV
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> Christopher Zach wrote:
> >
> > > However, the only way I'd do this with a high voltage pack (anything
> > > over 120v) is if I split the pack into several unconnected groups,
> each
> > > below 48v or so.
> >
> > Hm. How safe/dangerous is 75 volts? I have rigged my PrPrizmsing a 3
> > phase switch as the disconnect and it bisects the pack into two with
> one
> > set, and divides each side into two regions with the other. Thus the
> max
> > voltage I can be nailed with is 75.
> >
> > Is this safe or still dangerous enough to get me killed?
>
> My CoComutaVanad a 72v pack with half in the front box, and half in the
> rear box. With a stream of water from my garden hose spraying the most
> positive battery terminal in a box, and my hand on the negative terminal
> in that box (a 36v difference), I couldn't even feel any current. So I
> just sprayed down the batteries, letting the water, acid residue, and
> whatever other crud there was drain out the bottom. I sprayed the water
> with one hand, and scscrubedhe tops with a scrub brush in the other
> hand.
>
> I felt safe doing this, because the worst voltage I could reach was only
> 36v (+72v and -72v are at opposite ends of the car). But I certainly
> wouldn't do this with a higher voltage pack, or anywhere you could get
> more than about 48v of difference!
> Lee A. Hart
I have had strings up to 156v and have been hosing them down since my
first pack. Any voltage over 48v is deadly, so I follow the same
guideline as when I learned how to work on old TV sets - never put both
hands into the work, always keep one hand behind your back when working
with high voltage. It is sometimes hard to keep your leg from touching
the frame but at least the voltage wont cross your chest and go through
your heart.
I take a 5 gal bucket fill it up and add 1 cup of baking soda, a big
squirt of detergent soap and flush/brush with one hand then rinse. Repeat
until satisfied, then rinse with clean water. I like to use open battery
frames since this minimizes any buildup, I drill drain holes at the lowest
points of closed boxes . I also set the batteries on small pieces of old
rubber mats to electrically isolate and give the water the ability to
flush under the batteries as well.
Using baking soda "mats" will be a good insulator for a short period but
eveventually they become conductive and you have to remove the pack to
clean it out. When I first started to clean out my Jet Electrica the
previous owners used the baking soda bed in a "sealed" box technique.
What I found were sodium bicarbonate concretions that plugged all the rust
holes thereby masking the fact that the battery box was deteriorated.
I flush the pack evevery time fill with water and spray the tops and
connections with a water repellent.
Jimmy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have to say that there are a lot of people I have talked to on this forum
that have pretty fixed ideas about what is good for an EV. They will tell
you not to use an automatic, but I believe part of this is lack of
understanding of newer technologies. I also believe a lot of them are
promoting their own agenda or products and have been less than willing to
help me with information or support. Since I have had to work in isolation,
I believe I have come up with some pretty good new ideas for my design.
Sometimes necessity is truly the mother of innovation or invention!
Newer transmissions use a shifting sequence controlled by a computer. In my
case there are 4 solenoids, one of which is used to lock the torque
converter. I plan to get control of these via a centrino based pc and set
my own shift points. The shift tables are included in Mitchell all-data.
If all else fails it is possible to drive in D1 or D2 to optimize the rpms
on the motor.
In ancient times transmissions shifted by vacuum or kick down shift
mechanisms which severely limited their flexibility for uses other than with
gasoline engines. Such is the case with the old powerglides. Thankfully
things are changing. Today's automatics are a lot more efficient than their
older counterparts. I expect to lose some range (yes there are some
losses), but built that into the factors calculating the usefulness of my
vehicle. I expect to get 25 to 30 miles, but only drive 15 average per
day, so no big deal to me. Certain things are just not negotiable to me,
like having a car with class and the features one would expect to find all
of which will be working when it is done, right down to the cruise control.
On the drawing board now is my future "torque converter replacement" which
will eliminate that part of the transmission entirely. I will implement
that sometime down the road if I need to improve the performance.
Best of luck in your quest.
Getting closer each day!
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900 SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: Powerglide 2-speed Transmission
Has anyone looked at Jack Knopf 's '64 Chevelle?
(http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/640 and his web page for good info on the
Powerglide). This one intrigues me to no end...
There's just GOT to be a way to modify a "regular" automatic...At least I
wish there were a way...Probably too expensive...
Wayne Whtie
If those of us who "can", "do" then those of us who "can't" won't suffer
as much from the high prices of excess.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe you could use the tool batteries (is it Dewalt?) that the A123
batteries are going into -- If the tool battery pack has a built in
monitoring circuitry then you are set. I'm not sure how well they
would share current, though. You'd probably want to do a mini-pack
(maybe 4 tool batteries, 2 parallel strings of 2 in series) to test
things first.
--- Michael T Kadie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So I'm still kind of thinking about using a123 batteries, but am
> open to
> suggestions. I talked with the guys there and they told me for my
> small
> application (less than 100k cell) I'm going to have to come up with
> my
> own balancing system.
> This is definitely outside of my experience (strangely the rest of
> building this car isn't so far) and I could use some advice / help
> here.
>
> Thanks,
>
> KD
> Hybrid Electric Cobra Project
>
> http://sinc.us/kitcar
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.dannyscontentment.net/dannys_contentment/
Danny in London is video blogging his experiences driving an electric
car (a little Indian built thing (rEV?))
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cleaning out the garage. My Lectra has got to go.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/446 After 6 or so years of faithful service
I'm switching to a chopper style motorcycle & the funds from the sale of the
Lectra will make that happen. I'm also selling the Schwinn Stingray I built
last winter. http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/222 It's a little faster than
Gemini but I can get Gemini in the trunk and the Schwinn is just to cool to
fold. & wifey says it has to go. No multiple EV's. So I get one scooter,
motorcycle and car. I also have Craig Vetter's last streamliner fairing. I
had an idea to set a range record with the Lectra and that dream never came
to life. I'm asking 600 for that. Lawrence Rhodes.......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Taurus was the same from start to around the mid ninties. Around then
they changed to a longer narrower body. The orginal 10 years of cars were
roomy & pound for pound could hold a lot of weight. The best carry ratio of
any passenger car or station wagon around. So you can hold more batteries
without going over the GVW too much. There were a lot of them so you can
find use parts cheap. Lawrence Rhodes..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How did e-volks make good on the messed up parts? Or did they? Do they make
good with their customers? Inquiring minds would like to know. Lawrence
Rhodes....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Powers wrote:
> As for what people want in an EV. This is something I have
> given a lot of thought to, so here is my opinion. I am sure
> other people have ideas as well.
FWIW, here are a few of my thoughts...
> 4. The car needs to look decent, presentable. People don't
> want to pay $15,000 (or even $12,000) for a 15 year old junk
> yard car with 200,000 + miles on it, even if it is electric.
I'd go further an say that people don't want to pay $10-15k *more* for a
plain jane used car even in great condition than they would pay for the
same car as an ICE. The car has to have some redeemable/desirable
features above and beyond being electric.
> 6. The car needs to be simple to repair so someone has a
> way to get it fixed when there are issues.
The only other thing I can think of is that people want to know that
there will be service and support for their vehicle after the purchase.
With any car converted to electric this is already a large question
mark, but I would suggest one could try to minimise the concern by
reusing as many stock parts as possible. That is, use the stock tranny
so that if/when tranny issues arise it can (in theory at least) be
serviced by any dealer or third party tranny shop and there won't be any
concern with having to have parts custom machined for a custom-modified
tranny or having to try and source service parts for the Swiss fixed
reduction transaxle that was otherwise an ideal mate to the AC motor
that was used.
Use the stock AC and P/S; if possible, mount them to be driven using the
same belt as the stock ICE drove them with, though this is less of an
issue since a shop can measure the old belt to determine the appropriate
replacement... unless the belt breaks and is lost on the road.
> 7. People will pay on the order of $6500 - $12,000 for a
> conversion, depending on what it is.
I think this is extremely optimistic. I believe that conversions
typically sell for significantly less... usually less than the cost of
the components used to convert them. Very few people are willing to pay
the $10-15k that it costs to have a turn-key conversion of the vehicle
of their choice built professionally for them.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I visited the page and was somewhat horrified to discover that the
first type of conversion listed was "Novelty." Novelty also had the
biggest and the most pictures.
Next was bikes with a picture.
No pics at all for actual cars and trucks.
We can sign up and edit the page. I'd do it but I think maybe someone
with more EV cred would be a good idea.
-Mike
On 7/4/06, Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Had some extra time today so I spent some time at
wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_conversion
It seems that almost all of the categories have very
little information and links. I just thought the list
could contribute our collective knowlege to make this
a better resourse for those looking into EV's.
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yea but the Battery itself has a power peak, and it's not always 1/2 the
open circuit voltage.
That's why we do battery blast tests, to find this spot..
As you recall Bill you dropped your SVR pack below the point that we had
found.
As as you now predict.. you get less power and blew up batteries.
The Thevenin Theorm is applicable to the controller design and it's
operation. The controller allows for power in a range that can be used.
That's why we don't contactor drive series wound motors with 100C rated
Lions... or even 20 C AGM now days.
Wayland is asking more from his batteries than they can make. In his mind he
needs more power.
I grant that in the simple world of going faster..he could use more But..
and this is the Big Butt right now.
He is launching with the front tires in the air, and slamming the car
sideways with the Series parallel transfer. Any more real power gains are
going to come with a hefty cost.
He is breaking his drive train with the torque slam on the start and at s/P.
Most racers ...ie ICE driven racers can load the drive train until the Green
light.. John can't because he has to bump up to the lights, and then the
back lash is still loose when he launches...
Otmar's Curse/Blessing at the s/P change over is just too brutal. At the
power levels and RPM that Wayland is making.. he's totally unloading the
diffy for 500 msec then going back to full amps in like 50 Ms. This is like
using a 100 lbs Sledge hammer with a 2000 lbs strong arm on the gear faces
and bearings. This happens on Every run at the same point.
We have to find a better way of changing over the contactors.
And Yes Bill you need to do so with your motor drive setup also. You are
loosing 500 Milliseconds... That's rather large in your world and you are
really stressing your drive chain doing this.
Somebody else had this problem about 15 years ago... and welded chain on
every other run. Much effort has been expended to totally reduce drive train
back lash...
You and Wayland now have the same issues to solve...
Series parallel lets two kinda stock motors.. Hey they have the same field
windings and air gaps and same molded comms... Stock is stock! Behave much
better than a single stock motor.
But... it comes at a cost of contactors and therefore you can't run them
continuously from one end of the track to the other...without twin
controllers.
I think I can do better runs by using the manual s/P switch and a little
practice. The one of the big points in John's case is to allow for manual
power control AFTER the s/P event, this may allow him to climb back on the
power without or with minimal traction losses, and may let him drive through
the "Shake and Bake" vibration problem.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 6:40 AM
Subject: Re: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
> I'll confirm that as you go faster, it gets harder and
> harder to carve away any more. Each additional tenth is a lot harder.
> (I used to race all by myself, now it takes a whole team!)
>
> I noticed you mentioned that you were sagging your batteries
> to as low as 5.5 volts. You should set your Zilla to never take the
> pack below 1/2 the open-circuit voltage of the pack. Drawing more
> amperage, but sagging the batteries below 6.3 volts each results in
> less HP, not more. It puts you on the "backside" of the power curve.
> Strange, but true. :^)
>
> I'd suggest that you set the minimum pack voltage to 189
> volts on your Zilla and you should get more HP and lower ETs.
>
> >>> Theory (for those that might be interested) <<
>
> Based on Thevenin's theorem.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thevenin's_theorem
>
> The load resistance must equal the Thevenin resistance of
> the source for maximum power transfer. When this is true, the load
> voltage equals 1/2 of the open-circuit voltage of the source.
>
> http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_10/11.html
>
> See, I don't just make this stuff up. ;^)
>
> Bill Dube'
>
> At 08:02 AM 7/5/2006, you wrote:
> ><big snip>
> >
> >(2) Strong as they are, I'm close to extracting the max possible
> >power from the battery pack. According to the graphs Mark Farver
> >made off Zilla info, at the beginning of a run, each 12V battery
> >falls to about 8.2V at 1000 amps giving about 246 kw (330 hp) of
> >initial power. Near the end of the 12 second run, each battery has
> >fallen as low as 5.5V with the pack making just 165 kw of power (221 hp).
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Ellis wrote:
Rod,
Does this video exist anywhere?
I made a DVD from a VHS tape that John Wayland had... send me a message
off list.
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought you might all like to know about this:
http://www.gowheel.com/evDaytona_motorcycle.html If only I could learn more
about computers in order create world record breaking electrics. Heck, I end
up doing it the hard way by having to go out to the shop. It just seems like
sitting behind a computer would be so much easier :-) For your information
the still standing land speed record for an electric motorcycle at
Bonneville Salt Flats is 165.367 MPH set in 1974 by Mike Corbin.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
7. People will pay on the order of $6500 - $12,000 for a
conversion, depending on what it is.
I think this is extremely optimistic. I believe that conversions
typically sell for significantly less... usually less than the cost of
the components used to convert them. Very few people are willing to pay
the $10-15k that it costs to have a turn-key conversion of the vehicle
of their choice built professionally for them.
I would not be surprised if people will pay 12-15k more for branded
conversion. People are paying several thousand dollars extra for
hybrids knowing that the fuel savings will likely never pay back.
Not all used EVs sell for bargin prices: US Electriccar and Solectria
conversions generally sell for very respectable prices on the used
markets. The buyer wants to know the car will be reliable and will not
require a lot of work, same as when buying a used ICE. Custom
conversions done is someone's garage vary widely in quality. Personally
I would pay a great deal more for a new or secondhand conversion built
by (for example) Wayland, FT or Rev Gadget, since I know the quality of
their work.
The other problem is financing, very few people purchase cars with
cash. Buying a $7000 used one off conversion is something I could maybe
do with some disciplined saving. Buying a brand new conversion for
$20-30k in cash is impossible. The conversion company would be wise to
offer financing with their product and valuation information on used
vehicles.
Additionally most car buyers shop monthly cost.... so EVs could be very
competitive if they leverage their higher reliablilty to offer longer
loan terms. RV's for example are semi-custom conversions and would be
prohibitively expensive for most buyers, but 10 year and more financing
makes them affordable. They have longer livespans (in theory) since
they get light use. (In reality the build quality and maintenence is so
poor many only last a few years, leaving their owners in deeper debt)
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 6:19 PM
Subject: NEDRA to attend RPM Show at Indy
>
> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
>
> CONTACT:
> Roderick Wilde
> Marketing Director
> National Electric Drag Racing Association (NEDRA)
> Phone: 360-385-7082
> Fax: 360-582-1272
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.nedra.com
>
> NEDRA to attend RPM Show at Indy.
>
> Indianapolis, Indiana, August 30th through September 1st The National
> Electric Drag Racing Association (NEDRA) has been invited to the first
ever
> RPM Trade Show http://www.aera.org/rpm/attend/index.html to be held at The
> Indiana Convention Center sponsored by the Automotive Engine Rebuilders
> Association (AERA). They will have a booth along with the well established
> National Electric Hot Rod Association (NHRA) and the relatively new Diesel
> Hot Rod Association (DHRA). Keynote Speakers will include Shirley
Muldowney,
> four-time World Champion Top Fuel Driver and Don Schumacher, owner of the
> U.S. Army Top Fuel dragster. There will be a roundtable discussion
including
> John Force, Don Prudhomme, Hillary Will and Cory McClenathan. This event
is
> being held in conjunction with The Mac Tools US Nationals,
>
http://www.nhra.com/apcm/templates/preview.asp?articleid=2442&zoneid=90&navsource=18
> In addition there will be an E85 ethanol performance competition. NEDRA is
> looking forward to presenting world class electric drag racing to the
> public. "Plasma Boy"John Wayland's famous Datsun drag car "White Zombie"
> will be on display at the NEDRA booth.
>
> ABOUT NEDRA - NEDRA, The National Electric Drag Racing Association is an
> educational organization that exists to increase public awareness of
> electric vehicle (EV) performance and to encourage through competition,
> advances in electric vehicle technology. NEDRA achieves this by organizing
> and sanctioning safe, silent and exciting electric vehicle drag racing
> events.
>
> -END-
>
> Hi EVerybody;
This means that 'Woodburn" at PIR is a no show for the Labor day
weakend? Will"Woodburn " run another weak? I guess Zombie will do more good
at Indy? John gunna be there to show itoff, do a few breakstands? with the
new diffy? So, NEDRA gunna reschedule "Woodburn"?
Seeya
Bob
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 7/4/2006
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chet Fields" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 5:52 PM
Subject: Hosing down batteries
> I have read several references now to hosing down flooded batteries to
clean
> off the acid spray buildup. When this is done, do the interconnect cables
need
> to be removed? What stops the batteries from shorting out while this is
done?
> Or is this not a concern?
>
> Chet
>
> _ Hi Chet an' EVerybody;
Been hosing down Led acid Golf Cart batteries for YEARS, no problems. I
usually pik a sunny day and wash everything down with the hose and a paint
brush for cleaning, if needed. As this is a often done part of my
maintainence regimin_, things are pretty clean, before hand. But I built my
battery boxes, not as 'Boxes" per say, but open racks that water will go
through.This I did so I could wash down the batteries, and for ventalation,
helps cool things in the summer. On the down side I live with half my range
when it is COLD, like below 30 degreez.
My two cells worth;
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They state: "New technology battery packs charge much faster and last longer
than lithium-ion."
I wonder if I can get some of these for my car?
--- Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I thought you might all like to know about this:
> http://www.gowheel.com/evDaytona_motorcycle.html If only I could learn more
> about computers in order create world record breaking electrics. Heck, I end
> up doing it the hard way by having to go out to the shop. It just seems like
> sitting behind a computer would be so much easier :-) For your information
> the still standing land speed record for an electric motorcycle at
> Bonneville Salt Flats is 165.367 MPH set in 1974 by Mike Corbin.
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 7/4/2006
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey John,
I gotta say I'm surprised it didn't turn out differently, but man, what a
fun night that must have been! With White Zombie consistently running low
12s at over 100 mph and the electric drag bike saving face and putting on an
impressive show there must have been quite a few people reevaluating their
perception of EVs.
I definitely feel your pain with the vibration issue. That's been an
intermittent problem for me as well. Sometimes it's painfully obvious, only
to disappear, then rear its ugly head again some other day. I'm pretty
confident mine is largely due to inappropriate geometry, since I didn't
devote enough attention to that when I was mounting the motors. I'm afraid I
may see some similar mechanical failures in the future; I hope yours don't
keep you out of commission for long.
Now I hope you feel very proud of yourself for teasing us all with "Part 1"
and no "Part 2" and references to spectacular video but no gratifying
updates to http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/videos.php. You've had your fun.
More, please.
Matt Graham
300V "Joule Injected" Nissan
http://www.jouleinjected.com
Hobe Sound, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: John Wayland [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 10:02 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Electrics Wow the PIR Crowd Friday Night! (pt. 1)
Hello to All,
What a great night of electric drag racing Friday night was! No, White
Zombie did not achieve the goal of busting into the 11s, but the night was
still a big one as far as advancing the notion that electrics are nothing to
laugh at anymore. Many of my EV friends came to take in the excitement. Of
course, the usual suspects were there...Marko Mongillo, Rich Rudman down
from way up north in Washington state, and Damon Henry (also from Washington
across the river) who once again arrived on his NiCad powered electric
motorcycle. In addition to these guys, we were also accompanied by Steve
Kiser and Duane Gergich who brought their electric drag bike down from
Washington. Many from the OEVA (Oregon Electric Vehicle Association) gang
came too...Greg, Gary, Jay and others I'm sure I've forgotten, and many of
my forklift wrench work buddies came, too. Members of my family also showed
up. I appreciate all the support!
Man, those 11's are hard to get! White Zombie did the usual job of stunning
those unfamiliar with today's level of electric car performance, and yes, I
toasted a built El Camino muscle car, beat another muscle car, beat a 12
second 4 wheel drive turboed Sube ricer, and held my own (but lost) with two
pro stock cars, but nope, no 11-anything...just low 12's. I guess having an
electric street legal sedan that 'only' runs 12.3 @ 100+ mph consistently
(all 5 runs were
100+ mph, with the average at 103 mph) aint all that bad :-) Still,
being honest in my assessment, I failed to hit my goal. No excuses this
time. Absolutely perfect weather, good (not great) track conditions, a fully
charged and fully heated up battery pack, and ultra-fast recharge
turn-around times were all on hand setting the stage for 11's, but it wasn't
o be.
There are, however, two reasons that seem to be validation for why the car
seems to have hit another performance wall.
(1) As Tim reported to me on the 2nd pass the only other time we've been
able to make runs at PIR this year (we got rained out after the third run
back in early June), that old bugaboo vibration issue is back...BIG TIME.
The car accelerates like crazy, with a great 60 ft. time and a strong 1/8th
mile time, but at between approximately 90 - 100 mph the vibration begins
and ramps up so strong, it feels like the car is going to shake apart. The
acceleration simply ceases as the car's power appears to be totally absorbed
by the vibration. Then, after what seems to be maybe two l-o-n-g seconds,
suddenly the vibration vanishes, the car becomes turbine smooth again, and
it resumes a fairly decent pull as the speed goes higher again where the car
gains those extra 3-4 mph to where the trap speed comes out at 103-104 mph.
If the vibration wasn't there and those two seconds of stalled acceleration
were replaced with mild continued high mph acceleration, it's pretty clear
to me after driving the car, that the average ET of 12.3 @ 103-104 mph would
have dropped into high 11's @ 107-108 mph. Oh well, that wasn't the case
Friday night :-(
I suspect we've cracked the Ford nine inch casting again :-( The
instantaneous torque from the Siamese 8 fed with 2000 amps off line is huge,
and the series-to-parallel shift also at 2000 amps around 80 mph is also
brutal. In fact, on the last run Friday night, the car broke traction at the
shift-over point bad enough that the rear end got loose and the rear tires
squealed and chirped with wisps of smoke coming off both tires (video
captured)....this, at near 80 mph! I also noticed lots of extra 'noises'
from the rear end that got worse as the night went on...not good! The last
rebuild of the rear end revealed that we had been dealing with pinion
bearing wobble due to a full split across the casting of the massive rear
end, and that this was the source of the vibration issue. After another
perfect condition 9 inch casting was found, a pro Ford nine inch rebuilder
installed a new Richmond Gear set, all new bearings, etc., and the vibration
was totally gone. Now, it's back :-( Guess I'm gonna be pulling the rear end
out soon to see what's up.
(2) After repeated hard runs and fast recharges, the pack got so hot that
touching the aluminum case nearly burned my hand. The last run of the night
vented the batteries and lifted the pop-on top covers on several. No
squirting liquid and no pooled electrolyte, but they did vent and make a
very light fog that lasted maybe 30 seconds on the inside of the Lexan
compartment cover. This model battery is rated at
925 amps for 5 seconds, and I'm pulling 1000 amps for an average of double
that amount of time, so the batteries are performing well above their specs.
With the vibration halting top end acceleration and with very hot
stressed-out batteries, I made the decision after 5 strong runs to cut my
losses and stop racing for the night to save the pack. Four days after the
races, all the batteries measure good and the pack rests at 390V, the same
it usually does at 75-80 degrees. If any damage was done, it seems to be
minimal, so I'm glad I didn't keep punishing the pack.
Conclusions...
(1) Until I can fix the problem and eliminate the vibration, I don't think
the car is going to hit the 11's...it simply robs too much power.
(2) Strong as they are, I'm close to extracting the max possible power from
the battery pack. According to the graphs Mark Farver made off Zilla info,
at the beginning of a run, each 12V battery falls to about 8.2V at 1000 amps
giving about 246 kw (330 hp) of initial power. Near the end of the 12 second
run, each battery has fallen as low as 5.5V with the pack making just 165 kw
of power (221 hp).
I'm rethinking the current stack of 30, 26 ahr, 24 lb. Hawker Aerobatteries.
I remember back to 2000 when I ran a 378 lb. 336V pack of the half-sized
Hawker 16 EP models, 16 ahr 13.5 lb. little bricks of power that could
deliver 750 amps during low 13 second runs, over, and over. At 750 amps each
battery would sag to ~6.9V (going off analog gauges in the car). A double
string of 30 of these for 60 total batteries would make a 360V pack that
weighs about 90 lbs. more. This pack would sag less than the current packs
does at 1000 amps, while cranking out a whopping 1500 battery amps! Assuming
a conservative 6.5V per battery of initial sag, the pack would kneel to 195V
at 1500 amps for 295 kw (395 hp) of power giving 65 more hp than the current
pack of
26 ahr batteries do. It's possible that the overly beefy intercell straps
inside the smaller 16 ahr models contain heating under high loads better
than the larger 26 ahr units the car currently has. Back when we were racing
in the 90's, the earliest versions of the 16 ahr batteries would fuse open
their internal cell straps. After sending destroyed batteries to Hawker
engineers, they redesigned the batteries with beefier straps...cool. Perhaps
the strapping of the bigger 26 ahr models aren't as proportionately beefy,
and with 1000 amps passing through them (250 amps more than when using their
smaller batteries) the inter-cell straps are a limiting factor...they
probably get pretty hot inside the battery. This would explain the rapid
heat build-up and subsequent venting. On the flip side, it's also possible
that with the vibration eliminated and thus the power robbing issue gone,
the car might just crack the 11's with the current pack. No decision has
been made here, I'm just blabbing my thoughts...
OK, enough post racing analysis...on with the fun parts.
The big show of the night came from Steve Kiser and Duane Gergich with their
electric drag bike. Formerly Father Time's 'Dragon Rose', at the Sept. '04
Woodburn drags with Duane doing the driving, this gorgeous 156V bike set a
NEDRA world record for the MT/D class when it ran an impressive 12.497 @
100.7 mph! Steve and Duane now own the bike and have it in pristine
condition these days, with lustrous cherry red paint and the thing detailed
to the max...it's beautiful to look at! They had it on display at the June
24th SEVA Gasless on Greenwood car show, where I brow beat them, shamed
them, and downright taunted them into bring the machine south to Portland to
join me for Friday night electric drag racing.
I had written:
> As a bonus for EV racing fans, Duane Gergich and Steve Kiser will be
joining us with their Father Time-built outrageous drag bike > that has run
12.4 @ 100 mph. I twisted their arms yesterday at the SEVA Greenwood car
show.
Well, came they did!
The bike's now nearly 5 year old Hawker batteries, 13 of the little 13 ahr
models that weigh just 10.5 lbs. each, had sat un-charged and un-loved for
the past 1.5 years since the record was set...argghh! Yet, after being
charged, driven on, and charged a few times the batteries shed their
sulfation and flexed their electro-chemical muscles and made some serious
power! Can you say 12.5 @ 100 mph? Can you say that, twice?
Before these two great runs though, Duane had a tough time getting his act
together :-) His first run netted an embarrassing 63 mph at 14
seconds....wait...how do you only get 63 mph with a 14 second run?
Easy...you get confused and let off the throttle at the 1/8th mile marker!
Boy, we had Duane hanging his head in shame over this one, and a certain
Plasma Boy took advantage of the moment and really rubbed it in.
Duane took it in stride and laughed along with the rest of us (at himself),
then turned around and stuck it to everybody! After the track announcer told
everyone there was an electric motorcycle in the burnout pit, Duane decided
to shut up the snickers over a 63 mph motorcycle, and with Steve out on
track setting up the burnout perfectly with staging help, he gave a dramatic
go-ahead hand motion, signaling Duane to do the most scorching bike burnout
I've ever seen! It was awesome.
I had also written:
> I can hardly wait to see the crowd's reaction to their quick very red
electric bike with it's BIG electric motor clearly visible, and the fat
>drag slick and long wheelie bar extension making quite statement.
>
The crowd indeed, went nuts cheering and hooting. Then, after expending a
lot of power into the burnout, Duane made the Hawkers puke out even more
power and jammed the bike down the track running a 12.8 second blast!
Hawkers rock! Yeah, this wiped away all those snickers! After that run, came
the 12.5 second 100 mph runs back to back...very impressive for a
non-advanced 8 inch ADC motor, just 156V worth of 5 year old Hawkers, and a
Raptor controller. Imagine the motor properly advanced, 192V of brand new
Hawkers, and a Zilla Z1K? Can you say 11's?
How 'bout 300+V of hi current LiIons, a Zilla, and the same motor prepped by
Jim Husted? Can you say 'Hello, Bill Dube?"
Much of the credit for the bike's strong showing has to go to Madman Rudman,
as he had charging the bike down, big time! After I had argued with him
about getting us all hooked into the AC mains at the track so I could shut
off the damn stink'n generator in the back of my service truck, and after he
found a maintenance shack where the power pigtail box equipped with the Cam
Lok connectors was stored, and after he made a special run to a local home
improvement type store to get more electrical parts, he had us wired! Gone
was the noise and stink, replaced with silent and abundant AC power! Using
my PFC50x, during Zombie recharging, ~12 kw of power was rapidly sent into
the hungry pack, 29.8 amps @ 401V, and the turn-around time was about 7
minutes...every bit as good as I used to get with a dump charge pack!
Madman repeatedly charged the bike up to 80% in 3 minutes and it was fully
charged and ready to run again in 5 scant minutes...a 5 minute turn-around!
Of course, the mighty Hawkers simply took in the power, dished it out, then
took it in again...remember, they are nearly 5 years old, and sat for 1.5
years uncharged and unused...incredible batteries!
Did I say, Hawkers rock?
Back to White Zombie...The night was bitter sweet, with the first run one of
the most exciting, for sure. Normally, the first run comes in at around 13
flat, with the second run a high 12, then subsequent runs getting quicker as
the battery pack heats up. Friday started off much better though. For the
first attempt, White Zombie was lined up next to a very loud V8 muscle car,
a green Chevy El Camino with a built 350 cid V8. This bad ass machine had
fat drag slicks in back and its heavily cammed V8 lumped and thumped at idle
in true muscle car fashion. At the burnout pits the Chevy did a ferocious
burnout that had the crowd's attention immediately...all the while I drove
around the water pit and waited for him to end his testosterone fueled
display of power. I had figured that with a wimpy first run going to be in
the low 13s, why bother to do a burnout? The El Camino driver was serving
notice that the little 'ol Datsun next to him was going to get blown away,
and he was jabbing the throttle making the car jump...the car acted much
like a bull does as he snorts and claws the dirt. The best part, is that
this whole showdown was captured by a professional camera crew that had come
down from Seattle to do a special on 'White Zombie vs the muscle cars'.
I had previously written:
> there was a reporter/camera crew covering the Greenwood EVent....the
reporter/camera crew are heading to Portland to film both >electrics running
against the gassers this Friday, and to hopefully capture White Zombie
cracking the 11s.
So, why were these guys so pumped about coming to the drags to get this on
tape? It goes back to the Seattle car show on June 24th. The interview guy
is a hoot, and goes by the nickname 'Pixel'. Pixel had talked with me about
having seen both the 'Sucking Amps' show featuring Rod Wilde, his crew, and
'Gone Postal', and the 'Monster Garage episode featuring the build crew that
included Mad Man Rudman and Shawn Lawless.
He commented that for him it was disappointing that in both shows, the
electrics didn't actually win their races and that cool as they were, in the
end they underperformed for this reason or that, and they got beat by the
gas cars. He then said to me, "So, you actually 'win' races against the
gassers?" I said, "Sure, I beat them all the time. I also loose to them as
well. There's always faster cars. But in general, White Zombie is very
competitive with the cars it runs against, and it wins more than loses the
heads up matches it gets into." Pixel then said, "Cool, then the world needs
to see this. There needs to be a show where the electric beats the gas cars.
Note....I'm not trying to diss any of my EV buddies or their hard earned
accomplishments here, these comments are direct quotes from Pixel.
Back to the track....Frankly, I was a bit concerned that this first battle
might not turn out so great for the cameras, as the El Camino 'did' sound
and look as if it could kick my Datsun's butt. I would later hear that some
of the younger dudes who knew my car had put their money on the Zombie. We
staged as the announcer told everyone that the little white Datsun was an
electric car. Then the tree's lights sequenced down...yellow, yellow,
yellow....FLOOR the ACCELERATOR!!!!....Green.....Wheels lift, nose in the
air, my neck snapped back, and the race was on! The El Camino's V8 roared
and shook my guts, but the sound faded as he couldn't stay with the Zombie.
The run felt strong and the Zombie pulled hard, then the parallel up shift
happened accompanied by a brief rear end swing as the drag radials broke
loose then grabbed. I could still hear the El Camino at full boil, but I
could also see him in my rear view mirror :-) The best part for me, is that
this poor muscle head dude had to read the 'SUCK AMPS' plastered across the
Zombie's rear window all the way down the track as he was getting whupped by
a little 'ol tin can Datsun (as Rudman calls it) with a bunch of batteries!
The finish line reader boards said it all....El Camino 13.091 @ 100.75 mph -
White Zombie 12.524 @ 101.76 mph, all captured by a professional film crew!
Never, had White Zombie been driven to the track to run a mid 12 out of the
box...an incredible first run for the night, and we were all convinced the
car was poised to rip into the 11s. Of course, it felt great knowing the
camera crew had already got what they came for....filming an electric car
take on and beat muscle cars.
To be continued....
See Ya.....John Wayland
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Mark Farver wrote:
> I would not be surprised if people will pay 12-15k more for branded
> conversion. People are paying several thousand dollars extra for
> hybrids knowing that the fuel savings will likely never pay back.
They are paying a few thousand more, not $10k+ more, and perhaps a
larger difference is that a few thousand is a fraction of the cost of a
new car while the $10K EV premium is anywhere from a few to many times
the full cost of the same car in ICE trim (a quick online search
suggests a 2nd gen (96-99) Taurus should sell in the $1.4-5.6K range).
If it costs $10-15K to do a professional conversion (and make some sort
of profit), how many people will really line up to pay up to $20K for a
used Taurus just because it is electric?
Also, a recent article/study by the local AA found that hybrids are
actually now a sound investment as they will payback in a reasonable
amount of time (admittedly greatly assisted by the various incentives
associated with a hybrid purchase):
<http://autos.canada.com/news/vancouver_province_story.html?id=1b98616d-
b22e-4092-a3da-637364d97d46>
> Not all used EVs sell for bargin prices: US Electriccar and Solectria
> conversions generally sell for very respectable prices on the used
> markets.
Ah, but these aren't actually "conversions"; these are vehicles that
were sold brand new as electric. At the time they were converted, they
were brand new, current year produciton vehicles. This is distinctly
different from trying to sell someone a 15year old Metro with 100K on
the clock that has just been professionally converted to electric and
must fetch $10-15K above the cost of the same car in ICE trim in order
for the converter to make ends meet.
My first EV was a 1980 Dodge Omni that was converted professionally and
sold new as an electric car. When I bought it (1999, I believe), it had
something like 4000mi on the clock and mechanically was in mint
condition. Even so, I paid a pittance for it (usual story, batteries
not included, etc.), however, I firmly believe that there is compelling
evidence that a factory EV such as this or a Solectria will always fetch
a higher price than a similar condition/quality conversion of the same
model.
> The other problem is financing, very few people purchase cars with
> cash.
> The conversion company would be wise to offer financing with their
> product and valuation information on used vehicles.
Yes, I think you have a good point here.
> Additionally most car buyers shop monthly cost.... so EVs
> could be very competitive if they leverage their higher
> reliablilty to offer longer loan terms.
I'm not so sure about this beyond the buyer considering the
affordability of the lease/loan payments, but even assuming it is
accurate, I would question the reality of the higher reliability of EVs
in the hands of the general public.
Historically, EVs have ended up for sale shortly after the first or
second battery pack failure. There are better charging options
available now that can help address this issue, however, they cost money
and they still can't compensate for a lack of basic maintenance or abuse
on the part of the end user. To truly realise the reliability we
associate with EVs, some sort of BMS is required to protect the pack
from abuse and inform the user that service is required. I am not aware
of any such system at this time.
Cheers,
Roger.
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