EV Digest 5677
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: article: Zytek electric drivetrain enters production for smart ev
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Tesla Motors unveiled
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: [BMBB] Colloid Solid State Lithium ion Power Battery :: Shenzhen, China
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: When you skin a Saturn... pics this time
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Anybody have a controller that I can rent / borrow / buy? (eCobra)
by "Michael T Kadie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EVLN(Tech'd-out '64 VW hippie bus being used as PR tool)
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Tesla Motors unveiled
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Tesla Motors unveiled (my comments)
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Tesla Motors unveiled (my comments)
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Freedom EV? status
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Tesla Motors unveiled (my comments)
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: EVLN($11k for an nEV?)
by "gail donaldson lucas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Tesla Motors unveiled (my comments)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Tesla Motors unveiled (my comments)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Clutchless S10
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Anybody have a controller that I can rent / borrow / buy? (eCobra)
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: [BMBB] Colloid Solid State Lithium ion Power Battery :: Shenzhen, China
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
7/17 article POSTed on 7/18
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/69898
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But wasn't the Tzero priced at .5M$... 1/4M for a production model? Hard to
find buyers for cars like that.
It'll be interesting to see how the cars serve w/o a couple skilled
technicians to monitor their every cell. It'll be interesting if they
survive w/o the skill of keeping an Indy car going.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 9:52 PM
Subject: RE: Tesla Motors unveiled
> Don't forget the tZero,
> I assume that it is also for sale,
> already a long time.....
> But they started different, gas was not $3
> and I doubt that they had the Governer over
> for the unveiling.
> Sometimes the marketing approach makes or breaks
> a product, whether it is a good product or not.
>
> But it may cause new traction for other EV builders
> when there are successful and top dollar EVs.
>
> Like the racing teams: Joe wants a car that resembles
> the car that won the race (even if it is only the brand).
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is Thudersky still making batteries? One of the early folks to use their
batts had some donated to his e-bike project. He apparently had great
success... even better when he got the new batts. (A major point above
anyone else in his posts. Randy did legendary feats with his solar powered
vehicles.)
I seem to recall troubles in delivering product a short time later... months
of waiting, and unanswered email. But I didn't purchase their product
myself. I was just surprised that they are still selling product. It's been
several years.
I'd love to hear they were sill providing their product. Please let us know.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 7:47 AM
Subject: Fwd: [BMBB] Colloid Solid State Lithium ion Power Battery ::
Shenzhen, China
> Has anyone seen this? According to the Everspring link, they've reduced
prices way down, $.16 per
> watt. $1600 for a 10kw pack. These are the Thundersky batteries. Do they
include a BMS? Does
> anyone have experience with the brand?
>
> Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dooh, foregot the picture link:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ricksuiter/album?.dir=eca5scd
---------------------------------
Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My Zilla 2k controller is delayed again (which I'm OK with), and on the off
chance that someone has an extra controller laying around I'm sending this
out. I need something at the 72+ volts and 200+ amps. I have a 48 volt
MilplipaK controller that I may try to use for the transwarp 11" for
reference / recommendation (I actually have several with Etek motors from
our DARPA vehicle http://ssinc.us/darpa.htm).
I know it's a long shot but what the heck..
Thanks,
KD a.k.a.
Michael Kadie
http://ssinc.us/kitcar/index.htm
She's a roller and she's gorgeous, now all that is left is everything else,
simple, yeah, right :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The updated 1964 bus will be a great tool for Hybrid Technologies
> and the Volkswagen ERL to demonstrate the potential of these new
> technologies and they will be proud to present the vehicle in
> public events throughout North America.
>
> About Hybrid Technologies: www.hybridtechnologies.com
> Hybrid Technologies Inc. is an emerging leader in the development
> and marketing of lithium powered products worldwide. Superior
> technology coupled with aggressive marketing positions Hybrid
> Technologies to lead the world into pollution free, zero
> emissions living.
>
Has that Chaz Haba type feel to it (even if he isn't running things).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was excited to hear the Tesla car was based on a Lotus Elise. I
recently test drove an Elise and the salesman let me drive it over
120 mph on the highway and I was doing 90 mph on the ramps. And he
kept telling me to push the car harder! The car sticks like glue on
the turns. I've never driven a car this responsive before. The gas
version has a worked over Toyota engine so it has the best of both
worlds. Good engine from a respected manufacturer and great handling
from Lotus engineering.
And now its even better as an electric version.
I'm short so the Elise is perfect for me. But tall people may feel a
bit cramped and its tough to get in and out of with the top on. It's
amazing that Arnold was able to shoehorn himself into the car. I
don't think he would have been able to get in with the top on.
Zytec did an electric version of the Elise several years ago. Not
sure whatever happened with that.
The $100,000 price tag is a bit steep, so this is a playtoy for the
rich or the well-to-do environmentalist. A new base Elise is like
$42,500. Up to $50,000 with the performance packages and options so
it's already an expensive car to convert over to electric. The RAV-4
EV ended up being $43,000 after the electric conversion.
Even though I could never afford the electric version, I'd still love
to take one out for a spin. Sounds fun.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
On Jul 21, 2006, at 11:14 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of nikki
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 11:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Tesla Motors unveiled
Apparently the Tesla is actually a Lotus - I have just been
listening to the
BBC radio station in Norfolk and they just mentioned it in the news!
Regards
Nikki
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Steve, agree with your points.
> I did want to make an interesting point that the classic VW bug is still
> produced in Mexico. It can't be imported because it fails US emissions,
> which the air quality in mexico city proves. Converting those to
> electric power and selling them could be a very inexpensive brand new
> electric car that would have an actual impact on the environment.
> Jack
Huh? The classic Volkswagen Bug hasn't been produced in Mexico since 2003.
Anyway, I catch your drift. Find some kind of a long time produced car and
convert it. Should come with some decent safety features though.
Michaela
>
> Steve Powers wrote:
>> I read all the posts about the Tesla with mixed emotion. True, it seems
>> like a very nice EV, one of the best I have seen. I would go as far as
>> to say it is over-designed, 0 - 60 in 4 sec, 250 mile range. Who can
>> honestly say that they really need a car like that. And, then I heard
>> about the price, which of course I expected to be quite high. In fact,
>> it is. I have heard $80k, and even $90k from a different source. Maybe
>> they were trying to make a point that a high performance EV can be made.
>> But, we already knew that.
>>
>> At the same time, what they created is a car that to the common man
>> might as well be made out of "unobtanium." I'd say 99% of the people
>> on this list can't afford that car. I'd say 99.99% of the general
>> population can't afford that car, and if they could, they wouldn't buy
>> it. Why not? Those people, the ones with the money, are smart
>> business people and they don't want a hassle. They want a car backed
>> by a major auto maker. Something like a Lexus, Mercedes, BMW ... I
>> truthfully don't see them buying the car. There are the select few
>> super rich who are also into the environment or unique cars. Those
>> few may buy one. I expect that I will never see one on the road in my
>> daily travels. And, I suspect that most of you never will either.
>> So, what was gained? Some good publicity, sure. Someone proved a
>> point, sure. Did it actually help get the common man any closer to
>> driving an EV, no. I have to say no. If anything, it makes people
>> think that EVs are super
>> expensive. Still not pratical for the common man, people like me.
>>
>> I've stated before what I think (this is my opinion, so feel free to
>> disagree) the common man is looking for, and still no one seems to be
>> pursuing that market.
>> 1. Late model conversion - doesn't even have to be new
>> 2. Sustainable - parts available for at least 10 years
>> 3. Reasonable comforts, power brakes, AC
>> 4. Automatic - the common man doesn't like to shift - it is true
>> 5. Performance similar to a typical 4 cyl car - Corolla / Civic
>> (better than a Force)
>> 6. Cost - if well reconditioned, about $12 - $18k. Quality of an 8-10
>> year old used car - which would be easier to market - $8500 - $10k.
>> 7. Battery pack availability in the future and it can't cost a
>> fortune. I think as far as the common man goes, Li Ion is out. NiMH
>> is still an option. Even decent lead acid is OK.
>> 8. As far as battery maintenance goes, the common man doesn't want to
>> have to water them.
>> 9. The car needs to be smart with a BMS because the common man doesn't
>> like hassles.
>> 10. Range. A real world range - in real world traffic - with hills
>> and stop and go - 80 miles. 80 miles is more than sufficient. If it
>> is a parallel hybrid as well, it could have a 25 mile range in EV mode
>> as long as it has similar performance in EV and hybrid ICE mode.
>> 11. It has to be backed by a major auto manufacturer so that people
>> can sleep well at night knowing that someone will be there if it
>> breaks and needs repair.
>> 12. Options of 2 door or 4 door.
>>
>> I think the above could be done, and a successful business could be
>> created catering to that market.
>>
>> What do I think will happen long term? Well, I think one of the major
>> auto makers will come out with a plug in hybrid dual purpose EV and
>> ICE car. I think the car will do at least 25 miles in EV mode and
>> will go 0-60 like the current small hybrids. I think it will be
>> freeway capable. I think it will be Toyota, and I think it will
>> happen within the next 3 - 5 years. I also think the common man will
>> buy that car. I think that like me, he / she commutes < 25 miles on
>> work days and can run all electric monday - friday. And, I think if
>> he / she needs a little extra range one night or on a weekend he or
>> she will go and fuel it up. I think it is pratical and a decent
>> approach to clocking some real EV miles. Everyone that I know who has
>> an EV also has an ICE car. If you put them in the same chasis, you
>> only have to register, insure, store, and maintain one car. I see a
>> real advantage to this. Sure, I want all electric cars on the road, I
>> bought 3 of them you know.
>> And, I even started building a 4th. I am an EV guy, don't get me
>> wrong. But, to get them on the road, I think we need to take that
>> intermediate step. This is my opinion, so feel free to disagree.
>>
>> In the meantime, I guess I'll just have to keep waiting until someon
>> sells their 10 year old conversion with a 80 mile real world range for
>> $8500. Trust me, anyone with that car, isn't selling it. And if they
>> were, it wouldn't be $8500. I do remember though when you could buy a
>> used Force for about $4000 and a Jet Electra for <$1500 and of course
>> my first EV for only $600. I paid about $3600 for the ETV-1, not
>> running. But, now that has all changed. I guess I'll just have to
>> dream on thinking I can still get that dream car for $8500.
>>
>>
>> Still dreaming,
>> Steve
>>
>>
>> Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> What I saw when putting the pictures of the Lotus Elise 3
>> and the Tesla side by side was that the CHASSIS seems to be
>> identical, but the styling of the panels is quite different,
>> so it seems to be "based on" the Elise 3 (Federal).
>> http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/pictures/edatabase/viewpicture.php?id=
>> 116&image=chassis.jpg&title=chassis&album=laautoshow03
>>
>> and from the unveiling pictures:
>> http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/autoblog/hirezpics/IMG_6894.jpg
>> http://www.autoblog.com/2006/07/20/tesla-roadster-unveiling-in-santa-monica/
>>
>> Some striking details ARE the same, such as the striplights next to
>> the wheels on the fenders.
>> But the design of the hood, the lines on the side, the scoop, a lot of
>> things
>> are different, so it is not really a look-a-like.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Cor van de Water
>> Systems Architect
>> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
>> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
>> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Behalf Of nikki
>> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 11:07 PM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: Tesla Motors unveiled
>>
>>
>> Apparently the Tesla is actually a Lotus - I have just been listening
>> to the BBC radio station in Norfolk and they just mentioned it in the
>> news!
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Nikki
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The Tesla, Venturi Fetish and TZero are not made for the common man. It is
> not intended to be practical.
Neither was the 'Tropica/Zebra' - a fine electric vehicle, unfortunately
dead as a brick. Is there _any_ company that _ever_ sucessfully build
and/or converted vehicles in numbers and made money with it? Sure, there
are plenty of Solectrias, but even Solectria wasn't too happy about them.
I wish Tesla all the best, but I am afraid it is _very_ difficult to push
a new car brand into the market without a huge amount of burnable cash.
This brings me to another topic:
Why in the hell (or heavens) don't go the way the aircraft builder went?
It was almost impossible to compete against Cessna, Piper and all the
others, so, they started to sell kit-planes to doit-yourself pilots. They
got lots of people that built those aircrafts, they have a huge lobby (the
other EAA) and were able to get their activities cast in regulations.
So - if I were to go into the EV business, I would sell kit cars, with all
the difficult parts connected and/or in place, use some kind of well known
and legal frames, design a nice body and sell it as a kit. Have training
courses and additionally make money selling gadgets like i.e. better
motors, gauges, airconditioning etc.
Take a look how those fake 356 Porsche and Shelby Cobra kits. Just add all
the electrical stuff and sell it.
But to quote a famous figure from the movies: I am too old for that sh**t :)
Michaela
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Steve Powers
> Sent: July 21, 2006 6:31 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Tesla Motors unveiled (my comments)
>
> I read all the posts about the Tesla with mixed emotion. True, it seems
> like a very nice EV, one of the best I have seen. I would go as far as to
> say it is over-designed, 0 - 60 in 4 sec, 250 mile range. Who can
> honestly
> say that they really need a car like that. And, then I heard about the
> price, which of course I expected to be quite high. In fact, it is. I
> have
> heard $80k, and even $90k from a different source. Maybe they were trying
> to make a point that a high performance EV can be made. But, we already
> knew that.
>
> At the same time, what they created is a car that to the common man
> might
> as well be made out of "unobtanium." I'd say 99% of the people on this
> list
> can't afford that car. I'd say 99.99% of the general population can't
> afford that car, and if they could, they wouldn't buy it. Why not? Those
> people, the ones with the money, are smart business people and they don't
> want a hassle. They want a car backed by a major auto maker. Something
> like a Lexus, Mercedes, BMW ... I truthfully don't see them buying the
> car.
> There are the select few super rich who are also into the environment or
> unique cars. Those few may buy one. I expect that I will never see one
> on
> the road in my daily travels. And, I suspect that most of you never will
> either. So, what was gained? Some good publicity, sure. Someone proved
> a
> point, sure. Did it actually help get the common man any closer to
> driving
> an EV, no. I have to say no. If anything, it makes people think that EVs
> are super expensive. Still not pratical for the common man, people like
> me.
>
> I've stated before what I think (this is my opinion, so feel free to
> disagree) the common man is looking for, and still no one seems to be
> pursuing that market.
> 1. Late model conversion - doesn't even have to be new
> 2. Sustainable - parts available for at least 10 years
> 3. Reasonable comforts, power brakes, AC
> 4. Automatic - the common man doesn't like to shift - it is true
> 5. Performance similar to a typical 4 cyl car - Corolla / Civic (better
> than a Force)
> 6. Cost - if well reconditioned, about $12 - $18k. Quality of an 8-10
> year old used car - which would be easier to market - $8500 - $10k.
> 7. Battery pack availability in the future and it can't cost a fortune.
> I
> think as far as the common man goes, Li Ion is out. NiMH is still an
> option. Even decent lead acid is OK.
> 8. As far as battery maintenance goes, the common man doesn't want to
> have to water them.
> 9. The car needs to be smart with a BMS because the common man doesn't
> like hassles.
> 10. Range. A real world range - in real world traffic - with hills and
> stop and go - 80 miles. 80 miles is more than sufficient. If it is a
> parallel hybrid as well, it could have a 25 mile range in EV mode as long
> as
> it has similar performance in EV and hybrid ICE mode.
> 11. It has to be backed by a major auto manufacturer so that people can
> sleep well at night knowing that someone will be there if it breaks and
> needs repair.
> 12. Options of 2 door or 4 door.
>
> I think the above could be done, and a successful business could be
> created catering to that market.
>
> What do I think will happen long term? Well, I think one of the major
> auto makers will come out with a plug in hybrid dual purpose EV and ICE
> car.
> I think the car will do at least 25 miles in EV mode and will go 0-60 like
> the current small hybrids. I think it will be freeway capable. I think
> it
> will be Toyota, and I think it will happen within the next 3 - 5 years. I
> also think the common man will buy that car. I think that like me, he /
> she
> commutes < 25 miles on work days and can run all electric monday - friday.
> And, I think if he / she needs a little extra range one night or on a
> weekend he or she will go and fuel it up. I think it is pratical and a
> decent approach to clocking some real EV miles. Everyone that I know who
> has an EV also has an ICE car. If you put them in the same chasis, you
> only
> have to register, insure, store, and maintain one car. I see a real
> advantage to this. Sure, I want all electric cars on the road, I bought 3
> of them you know.
> And, I even started building a 4th. I am an EV guy, don't get me wrong.
> But, to get them on the road, I think we need to take that intermediate
> step. This is my opinion, so feel free to disagree.
>
> In the meantime, I guess I'll just have to keep waiting until someon
> sells
> their 10 year old conversion with a 80 mile real world range for $8500.
> Trust me, anyone with that car, isn't selling it. And if they were, it
> wouldn't be $8500. I do remember though when you could buy a used Force
> for
> about $4000 and a Jet Electra for <$1500 and of course my first EV for
> only
> $600. I paid about $3600 for the ETV-1, not running. But, now that has
> all
> changed. I guess I'll just have to dream on thinking I can still get that
> dream car for $8500.
>
>
> Still dreaming,
> Steve
>
>
> Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What I saw when putting the pictures of the Lotus Elise 3 and the Tesla
> side by side was that the CHASSIS seems to be identical, but the styling
> of
> the panels is quite different, so it seems to be "based on" the Elise 3
> (Federal).
> http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/pictures/edatabase/viewpicture.php?id=
> 116&image=chassis.jpg&title=chassis&album=laautoshow03
>
> and from the unveiling pictures:
> http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/autoblog/hirezpics/IMG_6894.jpg
> http://www.autoblog.com/2006/07/20/tesla-roadster-unveiling-in-santa-monica/
>
> Some striking details ARE the same, such as the striplights next to the
> wheels on the fenders.
> But the design of the hood, the lines on the side, the scoop, a lot of
> things are different, so it is not really a look-a-like.
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130 Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX:
> +1-610-423-5743 Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of nikki
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 11:07 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Tesla Motors unveiled
>
>
> Apparently the Tesla is actually a Lotus - I have just been listening to
> the
> BBC radio station in Norfolk and they just mentioned it in the news!
>
> Regards
>
> Nikki
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I haven't heard a peep about the "Freedom EV' in quite a while, and I
don't see any status change since last September on the EVProduction website.
So, is there any news?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Huh? The classic Volkswagen Bug hasn't been produced in Mexico since
2003.
> Anyway, I catch your drift. Find some kind of a long time produced
car and
> convert it. Should come with some decent safety features though.
>
> Michaela
>
Yeah, I remember a picture of the last one rolling off with a Mexican
flag draped across it - the final pregnant roller skate...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Isn't 360 rather high voltage for a GEM? I can't picture how you could fit
that many batteries into a car that size, or where you could buy that many
batteries for $530.
Gail
>
> The GEM is powered by 360-volt set of batteries and is charged at
> the police department. Charging the battery will cost about $4 a
> month, Huff said. A set of batteries, which Huff said he expects
> to last two seasons, cost about $530.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Powers wrote:
> 250 mile range. Who can honestly say that they really need a car like
that.
The key is in the 'honest', as one of the
comments I read about the Tesla that the range
was so limited - "give me a car that does 500
miles and it becomes interesting." or along those lines.
It appears that nay-sayers always want double the amount
that is available.
When EVs did 50 miles, they needed 100.
When they did 80 they needed at least 150
Then the RAV4 EV hit 120 so they needed 250
Now this car delivers 250 so only at 500 is it
a feasible car.
Some people simply never get it.
No, this is not a car to drive from San Francisco to
Disneyland.
It range limit makes it only good for 98% of the population
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Michaela Merz
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 9:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Tesla Motors unveiled (my comments)
> Steve, agree with your points.
> I did want to make an interesting point that the classic VW bug is still
> produced in Mexico. It can't be imported because it fails US emissions,
> which the air quality in mexico city proves. Converting those to
> electric power and selling them could be a very inexpensive brand new
> electric car that would have an actual impact on the environment.
> Jack
Huh? The classic Volkswagen Bug hasn't been produced in Mexico since 2003.
Anyway, I catch your drift. Find some kind of a long time produced car and
convert it. Should come with some decent safety features though.
Michaela
>
> Steve Powers wrote:
>> I read all the posts about the Tesla with mixed emotion. True, it seems
>> like a very nice EV, one of the best I have seen. I would go as far as
>> to say it is over-designed, 0 - 60 in 4 sec, 250 mile range. Who can
>> honestly say that they really need a car like that. And, then I heard
>> about the price, which of course I expected to be quite high. In fact,
>> it is. I have heard $80k, and even $90k from a different source. Maybe
>> they were trying to make a point that a high performance EV can be made.
>> But, we already knew that.
>>
>> At the same time, what they created is a car that to the common man
>> might as well be made out of "unobtanium." I'd say 99% of the people
>> on this list can't afford that car. I'd say 99.99% of the general
>> population can't afford that car, and if they could, they wouldn't buy
>> it. Why not? Those people, the ones with the money, are smart
>> business people and they don't want a hassle. They want a car backed
>> by a major auto maker. Something like a Lexus, Mercedes, BMW ... I
>> truthfully don't see them buying the car. There are the select few
>> super rich who are also into the environment or unique cars. Those
>> few may buy one. I expect that I will never see one on the road in my
>> daily travels. And, I suspect that most of you never will either.
>> So, what was gained? Some good publicity, sure. Someone proved a
>> point, sure. Did it actually help get the common man any closer to
>> driving an EV, no. I have to say no. If anything, it makes people
>> think that EVs are super
>> expensive. Still not pratical for the common man, people like me.
>>
>> I've stated before what I think (this is my opinion, so feel free to
>> disagree) the common man is looking for, and still no one seems to be
>> pursuing that market.
>> 1. Late model conversion - doesn't even have to be new
>> 2. Sustainable - parts available for at least 10 years
>> 3. Reasonable comforts, power brakes, AC
>> 4. Automatic - the common man doesn't like to shift - it is true
>> 5. Performance similar to a typical 4 cyl car - Corolla / Civic
>> (better than a Force)
>> 6. Cost - if well reconditioned, about $12 - $18k. Quality of an 8-10
>> year old used car - which would be easier to market - $8500 - $10k.
>> 7. Battery pack availability in the future and it can't cost a
>> fortune. I think as far as the common man goes, Li Ion is out. NiMH
>> is still an option. Even decent lead acid is OK.
>> 8. As far as battery maintenance goes, the common man doesn't want to
>> have to water them.
>> 9. The car needs to be smart with a BMS because the common man doesn't
>> like hassles.
>> 10. Range. A real world range - in real world traffic - with hills
>> and stop and go - 80 miles. 80 miles is more than sufficient. If it
>> is a parallel hybrid as well, it could have a 25 mile range in EV mode
>> as long as it has similar performance in EV and hybrid ICE mode.
>> 11. It has to be backed by a major auto manufacturer so that people
>> can sleep well at night knowing that someone will be there if it
>> breaks and needs repair.
>> 12. Options of 2 door or 4 door.
>>
>> I think the above could be done, and a successful business could be
>> created catering to that market.
>>
>> What do I think will happen long term? Well, I think one of the major
>> auto makers will come out with a plug in hybrid dual purpose EV and
>> ICE car. I think the car will do at least 25 miles in EV mode and
>> will go 0-60 like the current small hybrids. I think it will be
>> freeway capable. I think it will be Toyota, and I think it will
>> happen within the next 3 - 5 years. I also think the common man will
>> buy that car. I think that like me, he / she commutes < 25 miles on
>> work days and can run all electric monday - friday. And, I think if
>> he / she needs a little extra range one night or on a weekend he or
>> she will go and fuel it up. I think it is pratical and a decent
>> approach to clocking some real EV miles. Everyone that I know who has
>> an EV also has an ICE car. If you put them in the same chasis, you
>> only have to register, insure, store, and maintain one car. I see a
>> real advantage to this. Sure, I want all electric cars on the road, I
>> bought 3 of them you know.
>> And, I even started building a 4th. I am an EV guy, don't get me
>> wrong. But, to get them on the road, I think we need to take that
>> intermediate step. This is my opinion, so feel free to disagree.
>>
>> In the meantime, I guess I'll just have to keep waiting until someon
>> sells their 10 year old conversion with a 80 mile real world range for
>> $8500. Trust me, anyone with that car, isn't selling it. And if they
>> were, it wouldn't be $8500. I do remember though when you could buy a
>> used Force for about $4000 and a Jet Electra for <$1500 and of course
>> my first EV for only $600. I paid about $3600 for the ETV-1, not
>> running. But, now that has all changed. I guess I'll just have to
>> dream on thinking I can still get that dream car for $8500.
>>
>>
>> Still dreaming,
>> Steve
>>
>>
>> Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> What I saw when putting the pictures of the Lotus Elise 3
>> and the Tesla side by side was that the CHASSIS seems to be
>> identical, but the styling of the panels is quite different,
>> so it seems to be "based on" the Elise 3 (Federal).
>>
http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/pictures/edatabase/viewpicture.php?id=
>> 116&image=chassis.jpg&title=chassis&album=laautoshow03
>>
>> and from the unveiling pictures:
>> http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/autoblog/hirezpics/IMG_6894.jpg
>>
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/07/20/tesla-roadster-unveiling-in-santa-monica/
>>
>> Some striking details ARE the same, such as the striplights next to
>> the wheels on the fenders.
>> But the design of the hood, the lines on the side, the scoop, a lot of
>> things
>> are different, so it is not really a look-a-like.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Cor van de Water
>> Systems Architect
>> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
>> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
>> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Behalf Of nikki
>> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 11:07 PM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: Tesla Motors unveiled
>>
>>
>> Apparently the Tesla is actually a Lotus - I have just been listening
>> to the BBC radio station in Norfolk and they just mentioned it in the
>> news!
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Nikki
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I bet a VW with 250 pounds of Li Ion would have about a hundred to 150 mile
range & charge quickly. It'd be real easy to do that and the Vehicle would
have close to stock weight. Maybe less. Lawrence Rhodes..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: Tesla Motors unveiled (my comments)
> Steve, agree with your points.
> I did want to make an interesting point that the classic VW bug is still
> produced in Mexico. It can't be imported because it fails US emissions,
> which the air quality in mexico city proves. Converting those to
> electric power and selling them could be a very inexpensive brand new
> electric car that would have an actual impact on the environment.
> Jack
>
> Steve Powers wrote:
> > I read all the posts about the Tesla with mixed emotion. True, it seems
like a very nice EV, one of the best I have seen. I would go as far as to
say it is over-designed, 0 - 60 in 4 sec, 250 mile range. Who can honestly
say that they really need a car like that. And, then I heard about the
price, which of course I expected to be quite high. In fact, it is. I have
heard $80k, and even $90k from a different source. Maybe they were trying
to make a point that a high performance EV can be made. But, we already
knew that.
> >
> > At the same time, what they created is a car that to the common man
might as well be made out of "unobtanium." I'd say 99% of the people on
this list can't afford that car. I'd say 99.99% of the general population
can't afford that car, and if they could, they wouldn't buy it. Why not?
Those people, the ones with the money, are smart business people and they
don't want a hassle. They want a car backed by a major auto maker.
Something like a Lexus, Mercedes, BMW ... I truthfully don't see them
buying the car. There are the select few super rich who are also into the
environment or unique cars. Those few may buy one. I expect that I will
never see one on the road in my daily travels. And, I suspect that most of
you never will either. So, what was gained? Some good publicity, sure.
Someone proved a point, sure. Did it actually help get the common man any
closer to driving an EV, no. I have to say no. If anything, it makes
people think that EVs are super
> > expensive. Still not pratical for the common man, people like me.
> >
> > I've stated before what I think (this is my opinion, so feel free to
disagree) the common man is looking for, and still no one seems to be
pursuing that market.
> > 1. Late model conversion - doesn't even have to be new
> > 2. Sustainable - parts available for at least 10 years
> > 3. Reasonable comforts, power brakes, AC
> > 4. Automatic - the common man doesn't like to shift - it is true
> > 5. Performance similar to a typical 4 cyl car - Corolla / Civic
(better than a Force)
> > 6. Cost - if well reconditioned, about $12 - $18k. Quality of an 8-10
year old used car - which would be easier to market - $8500 - $10k.
> > 7. Battery pack availability in the future and it can't cost a
fortune. I think as far as the common man goes, Li Ion is out. NiMH is
still an option. Even decent lead acid is OK.
> > 8. As far as battery maintenance goes, the common man doesn't want to
have to water them.
> > 9. The car needs to be smart with a BMS because the common man doesn't
like hassles.
> > 10. Range. A real world range - in real world traffic - with hills
and stop and go - 80 miles. 80 miles is more than sufficient. If it is a
parallel hybrid as well, it could have a 25 mile range in EV mode as long as
it has similar performance in EV and hybrid ICE mode.
> > 11. It has to be backed by a major auto manufacturer so that people
can sleep well at night knowing that someone will be there if it breaks and
needs repair.
> > 12. Options of 2 door or 4 door.
> >
> > I think the above could be done, and a successful business could be
created catering to that market.
> >
> > What do I think will happen long term? Well, I think one of the major
auto makers will come out with a plug in hybrid dual purpose EV and ICE car.
I think the car will do at least 25 miles in EV mode and will go 0-60 like
the current small hybrids. I think it will be freeway capable. I think it
will be Toyota, and I think it will happen within the next 3 - 5 years. I
also think the common man will buy that car. I think that like me, he / she
commutes < 25 miles on work days and can run all electric monday - friday.
And, I think if he / she needs a little extra range one night or on a
weekend he or she will go and fuel it up. I think it is pratical and a
decent approach to clocking some real EV miles. Everyone that I know who
has an EV also has an ICE car. If you put them in the same chasis, you only
have to register, insure, store, and maintain one car. I see a real
advantage to this. Sure, I want all electric cars on the road, I bought 3
of them you know.
> > And, I even started building a 4th. I am an EV guy, don't get me
wrong. But, to get them on the road, I think we need to take that
intermediate step. This is my opinion, so feel free to disagree.
> >
> > In the meantime, I guess I'll just have to keep waiting until someon
sells their 10 year old conversion with a 80 mile real world range for
$8500. Trust me, anyone with that car, isn't selling it. And if they were,
it wouldn't be $8500. I do remember though when you could buy a used Force
for about $4000 and a Jet Electra for <$1500 and of course my first EV for
only $600. I paid about $3600 for the ETV-1, not running. But, now that
has all changed. I guess I'll just have to dream on thinking I can still
get that dream car for $8500.
> >
> >
> > Still dreaming,
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > What I saw when putting the pictures of the Lotus Elise 3
> > and the Tesla side by side was that the CHASSIS seems to be
> > identical, but the styling of the panels is quite different,
> > so it seems to be "based on" the Elise 3 (Federal).
> >
http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/pictures/edatabase/viewpicture.php?id=
> > 116&image=chassis.jpg&title=chassis&album=laautoshow03
> >
> > and from the unveiling pictures:
> > http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/autoblog/hirezpics/IMG_6894.jpg
> >
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/07/20/tesla-roadster-unveiling-in-santa-monica/
> >
> > Some striking details ARE the same, such as the striplights next to
> > the wheels on the fenders.
> > But the design of the hood, the lines on the side, the scoop, a lot of
> > things
> > are different, so it is not really a look-a-like.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Systems Architect
> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of nikki
> > Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 11:07 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: Tesla Motors unveiled
> >
> >
> > Apparently the Tesla is actually a Lotus - I have just been listening
> > to the BBC radio station in Norfolk and they just mentioned it in the
> > news!
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Nikki
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a friend who has a truck that has no clutch. It has a Lovejoy coupling
http://www.dultmeier.com/manufacturers/lovejoy.asp
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
Sent 12AM 7/22
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mueller, Craig M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 6:51 PM
Subject: RE: Clutchless S10
> Thanks Tom,
>
> I would think that might be hard to center-up & eliminate
> vibration. Do you notice any vibration, or is there some way that the
> adaptor centers to the clutch plate?
>
> - Craig
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Whay not contacting alltrax for a 72V 300 or 450A model ?
http://www.alltraxinc.com/
or logisystem (curtis)
http://www.logisystemscontrollers.com/logisystems_002.htm
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael T Kadie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 5:40 AM
Subject: Anybody have a controller that I can rent / borrow / buy? (eCobra)
> My Zilla 2k controller is delayed again (which I'm OK with), and on the
off
> chance that someone has an extra controller laying around I'm sending this
> out. I need something at the 72+ volts and 200+ amps. I have a 48 volt
> MilplipaK controller that I may try to use for the transwarp 11" for
> reference / recommendation (I actually have several with Etek motors from
> our DARPA vehicle http://ssinc.us/darpa.htm).
> I know it's a long shot but what the heck..
>
> Thanks,
>
> KD a.k.a.
> Michael Kadie
>
> http://ssinc.us/kitcar/index.htm
> She's a roller and she's gorgeous, now all that is left is everything
else,
> simple, yeah, right :)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
these battery is an energy oriented one.
Amp is limited arround 1C or less if you want to make them last (so high
voltage system is better) , keep this in mind during your application
design.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 5:31 AM
Subject: Re: [BMBB] Colloid Solid State Lithium ion Power Battery ::
Shenzhen, China
> Is Thudersky still making batteries? One of the early folks to use their
> batts had some donated to his e-bike project. He apparently had great
> success... even better when he got the new batts. (A major point above
> anyone else in his posts. Randy did legendary feats with his solar powered
> vehicles.)
>
> I seem to recall troubles in delivering product a short time later...
months
> of waiting, and unanswered email. But I didn't purchase their product
> myself. I was just surprised that they are still selling product. It's
been
> several years.
>
> I'd love to hear they were sill providing their product. Please let us
know.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 7:47 AM
> Subject: Fwd: [BMBB] Colloid Solid State Lithium ion Power Battery ::
> Shenzhen, China
>
>
> > Has anyone seen this? According to the Everspring link, they've reduced
> prices way down, $.16 per
> > watt. $1600 for a 10kw pack. These are the Thundersky batteries. Do they
> include a BMS? Does
> > anyone have experience with the brand?
> >
> > Dave Cover
>
--- End Message ---
