--- Begin Message ---
The X1 only weighs 1500 lbs. T-Zero is 2000+.
Assuming that the X1 and the T-Zero have the same hardware may be part
of the problem. I recall that the X1 runs at about 165kw from the
presentation that I saw. The power output curve can easily be changed
with software. So Ian can easily request more poop.
Remember that the KW rating is continuous. So asking for more peak
power is not an issue, just a choice.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mike, Yes I did see the rolling start drag race video. In fact it
is the
> first rolling start drag race I have ever seen in my life. In all
> definitions of drag racing this doesn't appear. Something is still
eating
> away at my logic sensors. How can you take a stock AC Propulsion
motor that
> they use in the T-Zero and get way more horsepower and performance
than the
> T-Zero. AC Propulsions claims the T-Zero does the quarter in 13.2
seconds
> and 0 to 60 in 4.1 seconds
> http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero_pages/tzero_html_home.htm. I can not
> believe the X1 is that much lighter than the T-Zero. Please explain
what
> magic dust they are sprinkling on the stock AC drive to make it
outperform
> the T-Zero by such an enormous amount. I will reiterate that a time
slip is
> not too much to ask from someone who can afford lithium batteries
and an AC
> Propulsion drive. Tell your friend Ian to prove it to us all and
regain some
> honor. You can also tell him that a Kiwi drove my electric car to
114.85 mph
> in the quarter mile which is faster than his top end. Until I see an
actual
> time slip I will remain extremely skeptical of the 11.1 second claim
on the
> video and his about 11.5 on his web site. I should have been born in
the
> Show Me state :-)
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 10:05 AM
> Subject: Re: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
>
>
> > I've ridden in faster cars. Blown Hemi cars, Superbirds etc. Nothing
> > like the ride I took in the X1. I understand 11 second acceleration.
> >
> > I live in the same area and I don't get an email response either. I
> > think it's from being a one man band. It's easy to imagine getting 100
> > emails per day from folks with questions. Ian built this stuff in his
> > garage and made what parts he needed on a manual Bridgeport. I
gave him
> > my input on converting his mill to CNC like I had done 5 years ago to
> > my Bridgeport. Maybe that will allow him to answer a couple more
emails
> > :)
> >
> > Have you seen the videos of the X1 racing?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > --- Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> Mike, No disrespect intended for your respectable time of 14.7
> >> seconds in
> >> the quarter mile. Many EV drag racers would be very proud of a time
> >> like
> >> that. To try to explain in words the difference in feel between that
> >> and a
> >> 13.7 second time is very difficult. To try to explain the difference
> >> in feel
> >> between that and 11 seconds flat is impossible.
> >> Concerning traction control, since we do not have sophisticated
> >> traction
> >> control we do a burnout to make the tires extremely sticky. You do
> >> not want
> >> your tire to spin more than one and one half turns on take off. This
> >> is why
> >> a car such as John's pulls the front end off the ground on launch. At
> >> a
> >> sticky track the X1's traction control would come in handy and create
> >> a good
> >> launch. In order to sound redundant I just want to see it launch and
> >> the
> >> time slip. Some time ago after reading their reported ETs I had
> >> emailed them
> >> and invited them to join NEDRA and set a world record. I explained
> >> that we
> >> had a Concept Class that they would have no competition in. They did
> >> not
> >> even have the courtesy to respond to my email. I think I know now
> >> why. The
> >> difference in times between about and reality may have been huge!
> >>
> >> Roderick Wilde
> >> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> >> www.suckamps.com
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:45 AM
> >> Subject: Re: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
> >>
> >>
> >> > Roderick,
> >> >
> >> > See below.
> >> >
> >> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roderick Wilde" <ev@>
> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi Mike,
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks for the note! Do not get my criticism wrong. I am not
> >> > against AC.
> >> >> In fact just to the contrary. I personally am selling my house and
> >> > one of my
> >> >> businesses to help pay for development of a high power AC drive.
> >> No
> >> > I am not
> >> >> selling EV Parts. Please do not take any of this to the list. It
> >> is
> >> > not a
> >> >> signed deal yet. My house hasn't even sold yet. The problem is
> >> that
> >> > no one
> >> >> makes a high power AC drive. Heck, when I first got involved in EV
> >> > racing no
> >> >> one was making a high power DC drive either.
> >> >
> >> > Are you sure you want to sell your house? My equity increases alot
> >> > every year. That has to be worth something? Best of luck. I hope
> >> you
> >> > get out of the venture what you want.
> >> >
> >> >> Concerning efficiency, believe it or not some of us currently
> >> > racing with
> >> >> DC understand that if you are creating heat you are not creating
> >> > horsepower.
> >> >> When you are limited by lead acid batteries and you have to haul
> >> all
> >> > that
> >> >> weight down the track with you then you want as much horsepower
> >> that
> >> > is in
> >> >> those batteries to reach the road as possible.
> >> >> You said you will be around the Tesla people next week. I assume
> >> > you mean
> >> >> Martin. I already talked to him while we were both in Los Angeles
> >> > for the
> >> >> Los Angeles film premier of WKTEC. I enquired about bringing a
> >> > prototype to
> >> >> the strip and he said he wanted to wait until the production cars
> >> > were out.
> >> >
> >> > Bummer! But fear not, I will harrass them relentlessly about track
> >> times.
> >> >
> >> >> I think from a business perspective this is viable. I still have
> >> my
> >> > doubts
> >> >> about the Wrightspeed and will still continue to have them until I
> >> > see a
> >> >> REAL time slip. In drag racing the first 60 feet are critical.
> >> Most
> >> > cars
> >> >> with enough torque to pull a good sixty foot time, i.e. sub 12
> >> > second cars
> >> >> have enough torque to overcome the weight of the vehicle on
> >> launch.
> >> >> Considering how light the X1 is it wouldn't take much to make it
> >> > airborne
> >> >> and it just doesn't do this. My logic would dictate that it would
> >> > not have a
> >> >> great sixty foot time, therefore not be in the tens. I would love
> >> to be
> >> >> proven wrong by a time slip. As you say, they are in business to
> >> > make money
> >> >> and BS always sells better than truth in the marketing world.
> >> >
> >> > Ian is a very straight up guy. He's not a marketeer. The traction
> >> > control on his ACP hardware allows only a tiny bit of tire slip on
> >> > acceleration from a stop. There is an encoder on one of the front
> >> > wheels that the rear wheels are compared to. If it were optimized
> >> for
> >> > acceleration tire smoke would happen and maybe the light front end
> >> > would get lighter. It's now optimized for range and efficiency.
> >> >
> >> > Just out of
> >> >> curiosity, what is the quickest car you have ever owned or drove?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Probably my 2nd 71 Road Runner. 440 4 spd. 2.76 posi. Back in those
> >> > days I was a top speed guy. That car mathematically was good for
> >> > 160mph with the original transmission and 200+ with the overdrive
> >> > version. I commuted to work one morning at 130mph with lots of
> >> > throttle left. Those were also the days of massive child support
> >> > payments. So all I could afford for tires were G78-15 Sears
> >> Guardsmen
> >> > radials. Zero traction. The car taught me how to launch with a
> >> great
> >> > deal of control because of such easy tire spin. When I bought the
> >> car
> >> > it did 15.7. Last time I ran it set up for the highway it ran 14.7
> >> at
> >> > 96mph. I have those time slips from the 1980's still in my top box.
> >> > That car got me to the semi finals at Baylands. If my Hurst Pistol
> >> > Grip shifter had not gotten stuck in 2nd gear, I would have won.
> >> What
> >> > beat me were 3 guys in a stock Capri :) I can still see those 3
> >> guys
> >> > celebrating as we passed thru the traps. They couldn't believe it.
> >> My
> >> > reactions times were often .200. The lights were timed that if you
> >> > left under .400 you red lighted. I had to chill a bit.
> >> >
> >> > Mike
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Roderick Wilde
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@>
> >> >> To: "Roderick Wilde" <ev@>
> >> >> Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 9:17 PM
> >> >> Subject: Re: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > Roderick,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I will find out the info on the clutch for you.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The X1 was made for efficiency. It just happens to also be very
> >> quick.
> >> >> > If it had one more gear and slicks, it would easily pull 10's.
> >> >> > Remember this car doesn't even spin the tires when it launches.
> >> The
> >> >> > 150+kw system could easily be tweaked thru software to put out
> >> more
> >> >> > power instead of trying to conserve the battery pack. 150kw is
> >> what it
> >> >> > will put out as long as the pack can supply it. Not a peak spec.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I've ridden in the X1. I'm telling you that this car is not even
> >> race
> >> >> > prepped and it will take down anything that is not race prepped,
> >> and
> >> >> > most of what is race prepped and streetable.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I'd love nothing more than to see and AC/DC shootout at some
> >> track.
> >> >> > But please remember that the guys building this stuff are trying
> >> to
> >> >> > make a living at it. Will they have time? We'll see.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I promise you when I am around the Tesla Motors car next
> >> weekend, I'll
> >> >> > press the time slip issue in a big way.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Mike
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roderick Wilde" <ev@>
> >> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Mike, a few questions to make things clear for me. What car
> >> uses a
> >> >> >> $30,000.00 clutch assembly. I have been racing electric cars
> >> for a
> >> >> > while and
> >> >> >> gas cars as well and I have never heard of such a thing. Please
> >> >> > quote the
> >> >> >> brand and a URL.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> You also state that no DC powered car can beat the X1. Are
> >> you
> >> >> > seriously
> >> >> >> telling the EV community and the world through your post that
> >> the X1
> >> >> > turns
> >> >> >> in the 10s in the quarter mile? That is what it would take to
> >> > beat the
> >> >> >> quickest DC powered street car. You can't be serious? John has
> >> a
> >> >> > relatively
> >> >> >> slow DC powered street EV from my perspective :-) and I
> >> personally
> >> >> > have seen
> >> >> >> his time slips. My money would be on his car in a drag race
> >> with
> >> > the X1.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> If you know the folks with the X1 then tell them they are
> >> invited
> >> >> > to the
> >> >> >> NEDRA Nationals. It would be a great crowd pleaser! I would say
> >> it
> >> >> > is time
> >> >> >> for the X1 to splurge and spend the 20 bucks and get their car
> >> timed
> >> >> > with
> >> >> >> modern technology timing equipment and then show the world
> >> their
> >> >> > time slip.
> >> >> >> You do believe in modern technology, right. As Dennis Berube
> >> > says: "The
> >> >> >> proof is in the time slip"
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Roderick Wilde
> >> >> >> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> >> >> >> www.suckamps.com
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> >> From: "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@>
> >> >> >> To: "John Wayland" <ev@>
> >> >> >> Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 4:26 PM
> >> >> >> Subject: Re: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >I bet you said that in one breath too John!
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > It's clear to me that you are not a fan of technology.
> >> Composite
> >> >> >> > construction, tube frames and AC are not something you've
> >> > looked into
> >> >> >> > for racing apparently. In fact you call them silly. These AC
> >> > companies
> >> >> >> > have and are using it effectively too. You choose to overlook
> >> one
> >> >> >> > thing, these AC cars want to go hundreds of miles on a charge
> >> > as well
> >> >> >> > as go fast, very very fast. Can any DC car make claims like
> >> that?
> >> >> >> > Nope. Never will be able too either.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > I don't think these EV companies are missing the boat by
> >> going
> >> > with AC
> >> >> >> > systems over DC. The common thread is that each new EV
> >> company
> >> > keeps
> >> >> >> > picking AC systems to run world class acceleration with.
> >> There
> >> > must be
> >> >> >> > something to these AC systems. But how can they keep missing
> >> the
> >> >> >> > benfits of DC?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > You use to own the same type of USE truck that I do? How cool
> >> is
> >> >> >> > that?? Did you know the USE charger can charge any voltage
> >> > pack?? Did
> >> >> >> > you know it can charge Nimh or Lead acid? Did you look into
> >> > that while
> >> >> >> > you owned it? Of course you did....
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Did you know the 20kw charger in the ACP cars is user
> >> adjustable on
> >> >> >> > the dash board for any voltage AC going in or DC voltage
> >> going out
> >> >> >> > from technology that was designed over 15 years ago??
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > A 20kw charger for $300??
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Nobody on this planet can touch that. No extra boxes of
> >> hardware to
> >> >> >> > store at home or in the EV. All built in. Seems to me to be a
> >> great
> >> >> >> > asset to racing. It's part of every AC systems capability and
> >> a
> >> > great
> >> >> >> > boon for efficiency if weight means anything
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > The X1 did a rolling start due to the objections of the other
> >> > vehicles
> >> >> >> > owner not wanting to toast a $30,000 clutch assy. So Ian
> >> agreed
> >> > to a
> >> >> >> > rolling start. The other vehicles he raced were standing
> >> > starts. I've
> >> >> >> > ridden in the X1 and your not going to beat it with any DC
> >> car.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Remember John, if the X1 and Tzero had a transmission that
> >> > could shift
> >> >> >> > just one more gear, then their top ends would be far higher.
> >> > They go
> >> >> >> > with no gears as it takes away from their ultimate goal of
> >> > efficency
> >> >> >> > and lighter weight. Yet they still hold their own against
> >> world
> >> > class
> >> >> >> > street legal cars.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Keep advancing the cause of DC John. Just close your doors,
> >> > very very
> >> >> >> > tightly....
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Mike
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Wayland <ev@>
> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Hello to All,
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Whew...where to start answering all this? Mike, you seem to
> >> be
> >> >> > zealous
> >> >> >> >> over AC to the point that you are putting a spin on stats.
> >> You
> >> >> > compare
> >> >> >> >> apples to oranges, then do your best to convince others its
> >> > apples to
> >> >> >> >> apples. Follow me here, as I take your points one at a time.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Mike Phillips wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >I know I sure want a performance EV. But I would not do it
> >> > with DC.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Then you would be making a big mistake, and dollar for
> >> dollar,
> >> > you'd
> >> >> >> > get
> >> >> >> >> your high tech doors blown off by DC...unless of course, you
> >> do
> >> >> > it with
> >> >> >> >> the silly Wright Speed skeleton 'thing', then you wouldn't
> >> > have any
> >> >> >> >> doors to get blown off.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >Expanding slighty on John's points. I would add that every
> >> EV
> >> > drag
> >> >> >> >> >racer has to have a good charger too.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Already got that with 12 kw Manzanita Micro chargers that we
> >> can
> >> >> > easily
> >> >> >> >> use on other DC cars, making them way more useful than one
> >> that's
> >> >> > stuck
> >> >> >> >> inside a high dollar AC car.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >A major benefit of an AC system
> >> >> >> >> >is that for about $300 it's very easy to make the AC system
> >> > do dual
> >> >> >> >> >duty as a charger.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> These Manzanita Micro chargers can charge 'any' EV's pack,
> >> not
> >> >> > just the
> >> >> >> >> captive one connected to an AC machine. Last night at the
> >> > races was a
> >> >> >> >> perfect example. We used Manzanita Micro chargers to charge
> >> a
> >> >> > 192V drag
> >> >> >> >> bike, a 120V convertible, a 240V 914, a 24V bike, a 360V
> >> car, and
> >> >> > a 72V
> >> >> >> >> drag bike....even standby 12V batteries one at a time!
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> > What's that worth?
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Last night, where the real EV races were, it would have been
> >> >> > worthless!
> >> >> >> >> And speaking of worthless, in the case of the AC powered
> >> Chevy S10
> >> >> >> >> pickup I had for several months, it also wasn't worth
> >> anything. In
> >> >> >> > fact,
> >> >> >> >> this over-priced, slow as molasses EV ($45,000 back in '98)
> >> > with its
> >> >> >> >> under-powered Dolphin Hughes AC system with built-in
> >> > inverter-based
> >> >> >> >> charger, was thrown away by the utility company that got
> >> duped
> >> > into
> >> >> >> >> buying it, because the charger failure took down the entire
> >> > inverter.
> >> >> >> >> Yeah, great idea there! After buying the over-priced AC
> >> truck and
> >> >> >> > having
> >> >> >> >> such a dismal experience, the utility company gave up on
> >> EVs.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >The one area that AC loses today is the purchase price. You
> >> > got me
> >> >> >> >> >there.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> No, I got you on many, many other areas as well...you're
> >> only
> >> >> > admitting
> >> >> >> >> to the price.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >But someone could make an AC system that was Otmar-esque. A
> >> >> >> >> >sane, simple box....
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> What on earth is sane and simple about anything Otmar
> >> builds?
> >> > His .6
> >> >> >> >> megawatt capable controller is not what most would consider
> >> >> > sane...more
> >> >> >> >> like over-the-top, over-built, but certainly not sane! The
> >> > Zilla and
> >> >> >> >> Hairball are anything but simple...they are advanced pieces
> >> of
> >> >> >> > equipment
> >> >> >> >> that provide tremendous power, flexibility, and reliability.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >For performance, an AC motor can out rev a DC motor by a
> >> huge
> >> >> > margin.
> >> >> >> >> >Mine goes to 9k rpm all day long.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Where did you get the idea, that all you have to do, is be
> >> able
> >> >> > to rev
> >> >> >> >> to high rpm's to get performance? The Brusa AC system that
> >> was in
> >> >> >> >> Otmar's Sprint could rev to 9 or 10 grand, too, but it went
> >> > 0-60 in
> >> >> >> >> about a day and a half. Your Dolphin may rev, but I doubt it
> >> > can even
> >> >> >> >> remotely touch a DC system's performance at 1/3 the cost!
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >ACP motors rev to 13k rpm all day
> >> >> >> >> >long.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> And yet, when doing an honest apples to apples comparison
> >> with
> >> > my DC
> >> >> >> >> car, that is, both cars weighing exactly the same 2450 lbs.
> >> when
> >> >> >> > powered
> >> >> >> >> by AGM lead acid batteries, they are slower to 60 by at
> >> least
> >> > a half
> >> >> >> >> second, slower in the 1/4 mile standing start drag race by
> >> more
> >> >> > than a
> >> >> >> >> second (a huge margin in terms of 1/4 mile ET) with their
> >> 13.24 ET
> >> >> >> > vs my
> >> >> >> >> 12.151 ET, slower to 100 mph...oops, sorry, in order to get
> >> > its 0-60
> >> >> >> >> time down it had to be geared appropriately and thus it
> >> > couldn't even
> >> >> >> >> hit 100 and only ran 90 mph, and slower in top speed than my
> >> old
> >> >> >> > tech DC
> >> >> >> >> powered Datsun that's got rear doors, windows....well, it's
> >> a car,
> >> >> >> > not a
> >> >> >> >> plastic toy.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Even with the HUGE advantage of a mega dollar LiIon pack, my
> >> DC
> >> >> > car can
> >> >> >> >> still whup the tZero. Looks like all those rpms didn't do
> >> >> > sh....t! Ever
> >> >> >> >> wonder what that fiberglass curiosity would do if you took
> >> out
> >> > that
> >> >> >> >> wimpy 150 kw power train, and dropped in the 350 kw power
> >> train of
> >> >> >> > White
> >> >> >> >> Zombie and fed it with those LiIons?
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >AC motors do not have brushes and
> >> >> >> >> >all the assorted headaches.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Hmmm....the brushes in Blue Meanie are original, been in the
> >> car
> >> >> > for 12
> >> >> >> >> years, and are still at 60% or so. No headaches to speak of,
> >> >> > other than
> >> >> >> >> those caused by my head getting slammed back into the head
> >> rests.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >If you want to run more voltage you
> >> >> >> >> >just....run more voltage. No arc over headaches.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> A valid point when under the extremes of racing, but
> >> certainly not
> >> >> >> > valid
> >> >> >> >> at all for regular street cars.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >AC systems create a very flat torque curve via the
> >> electronics.
> >> >> > That's
> >> >> >> >> >a drag racers wet dream.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Actually, it's you that's all wet. AC cars typically have a
> >> > very soft
> >> >> >> >> low end, that's why they need to be geared down. As the revs
> >> go
> >> >> > up, the
> >> >> >> >> torque curve rises and eventually flattens out from
> >> 2000-8000
> >> >> > rpm, then
> >> >> >> >> they fall off. High voltage DC drives are flat from the
> >> beginning
> >> >> > with
> >> >> >> >> near instantaneous bottom end torque that stays flat until
> >> > about 6000
> >> >> >> >> rpm then ramps down, for about the same bandwidth of power
> >> as
> >> > the AC
> >> >> >> >> drive, but with the advantage of the power being available
> >> far
> >> >> > sooner,
> >> >> >> >> where you need it most.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >The other benefit of AC over DC is that you don't need a
> >> battery
> >> >> > pack
> >> >> >> >> >that can source 2000 amps.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Boy, the spin is getting thick here! Why do you AC guys have
> >> > to use
> >> >> >> >> theses tactics to 'try' prove your points? You certainly
> >> don't
> >> > need
> >> >> >> > 2000
> >> >> >> >> amps with DC to easily match or exceed the 100 kw power
> >> level of
> >> >> > AC, in
> >> >> >> >> fact, run at the same voltage of the typical 100 kw AC
> >> system, the
> >> >> >> >> current is the same for DC. Even at half the voltage, you
> >> only
> >> >> > need 700
> >> >> >> >> or so, not 2000! The fact is, at 2000 amps the DC system
> >> > simply blows
> >> >> >> >> away the AC system stuck at a restrictive 350 amps. Two cars
> >> > with the
> >> >> >> >> same voltage pack, same weight, but one DC and the other AC,
> >> will
> >> >> > have
> >> >> >> >> to draw the same current to get similar performance.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> You seem to be parroting what you've been told. AC drives
> >> > 'typically'
> >> >> >> >> powered at 100 kw do it by using ~300V at 350 amps, where DC
> >> > systems
> >> >> >> >> typically can do 100 kw at ~150V or so at 700 amps. The AC
> >> > promoters
> >> >> >> >> 'spin' this by dodging the fact that they can't make an
> >> >> > affordable high
> >> >> >> >> current inverter that can handle 700 amps for a sensible
> >> lower
> >> >> > voltage
> >> >> >> >> system, so they simply tout that they only need 350 amps to
> >> make
> >> >> > their
> >> >> >> >> 100 kw of power. The reason for this is obvious to most of
> >> us. AC
> >> >> >> >> inverters that aren't in the $20k range, can't handle
> >> anymore
> >> >> > amps than
> >> >> >> >> this, thus, the only way to make 100 kw of power is to raise
> >> the
> >> >> >> > voltage
> >> >> >> >> high enough so that amps X volts equals 100 kw. DC can do it
> >> > at half
> >> >> >> > the
> >> >> >> >> voltage, making for a much less expensive battery pack
> >> > consisting of
> >> >> >> >> just 13, 12V modules...your beloved AC can't do this and
> >> still
> >> >> > make 100
> >> >> >> >> kw. What you omit in your apples to oranges comparison, is
> >> that a
> >> >> > 300V
> >> >> >> >> DC system.... 'surprise'....also only draws 350 amps to make
> >> 100
> >> >> > kw of
> >> >> >> >> power. I wonder why you leave this part out? This seems to
> >> be a
> >> >> > common
> >> >> >> >> thread among AC lovers. Now, to take away your AC spin,
> >> let's
> >> > restate
> >> >> >> >> the above:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> The other benefit of DC over AC is that you don't need a
> >> high
> >> >> >> > voltage battery pack
> >> >> >> >> to make reasonable power (100 kw)...you can do it with half
> >> the
> >> >> >> > number of batteries sourcing 700 amps. Additionally, with the
> >> > higher
> >> >> >> > performance DC systems, sourcing 2000 amps at higher voltages
> >> > can make
> >> >> >> > power levels 4 times higher for the same price as a 100 kw AC
> >> > system!!
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Next up:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >A 1000 amp AC system would be a sub 10
> >> >> >> >> >second vehicle.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> OK......and where's this 1000 amp AC system that can be had
> >> at
> >> >> > the same
> >> >> >> >> price as a Zilla Z2K with DC motor? And why do you think a
> >> 1000
> >> >> > amp AC
> >> >> >> >> system could even stay close to a 2000 amp DC system?
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >How do I know this? Because the fast AC systems now
> >> >> >> >> >are pulling 500-700 amps, and are running in the low 11's.
> >> >> >> >> >Yes they were 1/4 mile runs done at Moffet Field. I think
> >> > there are
> >> >> >> >> >videos out there as I recall.
> >> >> >> >> >Don't let the cost of these cars blind you to the most
> >> simple
> >> > part.
> >> >> >> >> >These AC car makers are making world class machines.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Boy, are your facts screwed up! First, the 'cars' you refer
> >> to are
> >> >> >> >> nothing close to regular cars. The tZero as already pointed
> >> > out, is a
> >> >> >> >> toy-like kit car of flimsy build quality that weighs next to
> >> > nothing
> >> >> >> > and
> >> >> >> >> doesn't even have functioning doors...yeah, world class!
> >> Minus its
> >> >> >> >> exotic $60,000 LiIon battery pack and using lead acid
> >> > technology like
> >> >> >> >> the DC cars, again already pointed out, it's slower in every
> >> > regard
> >> >> >> >> than a 34 year old DC powered, factory built, steel
> >> constructed
> >> >> >> >> sedan....yeah, world class! How 'bout that skeleton
> >> 'thing'?...I
> >> >> > refuse
> >> >> >> >> to call it a car! It's not even close to being a real car (a
> >> tube
> >> >> > frame
> >> >> >> >> with tires) and again, running a mega dollar LiIon battery
> >> pack,
> >> >> > it ran
> >> >> >> >> a 'claimed' 11.95 only after cheating with a running start,
> >> and
> >> >> > even at
> >> >> >> >> this, there were no timing lights to make it accurate, just
> >> some
> >> >> > dudes
> >> >> >> >> with hand-held stop watches...what a joke, and what an
> >> insult to
> >> >> > those
> >> >> >> >> who take their machines to properly timed tracks and get
> >> real time
> >> >> >> > slips
> >> >> >> >> from a standing start. I have a time slip showing that my
> >> car has
> >> >> >> > really
> >> >> >> >> run a 12.151 ET, and it did it from a standing start. If I
> >> were a
> >> >> >> >> cheating man, I could do a rolling start as they did in
> >> those
> >> > goofy
> >> >> >> >> Wright Speed videos, and could probably rip off a low 11 or
> >> even a
> >> >> >> > high 10!
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >Happily. http://www.wrightspeed.com/x1.html It has done
> >> 11.5
> >> >> > seconds.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Spin again? At the referenced site, did you not see the '~'
> >> in
> >> >> > front of
> >> >> >> >> the 11.5 second claim? That little squiggly thing means
> >> >> > 'approximate',
> >> >> >> >> meaning that they haven't really done this, that they
> >> haven't
> >> > got a
> >> >> >> > time
> >> >> >> >> slip to prove it, that they are BS-ing! By the way, an 11.5
> >> is
> >> > what
> >> >> >> > real
> >> >> >> >> drag racers call a 'mid 11', not a low eleven...more spin?
> >> The
> >> > truth
> >> >> >> > is,
> >> >> >> >> the best ET they claim to have any witnesses to, is the
> >> >> > aforementioned
> >> >> >> >> cheater's rolling start 11.95....give me a break!
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >Then at the end of the 10-11 second race day, you just
> >> charge
> >> > up and
> >> >> >> >> >drive home instead of trailering your race specific vehicle
> >> > back to
> >> >> >> >> >the shop.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Geesh....where did all this come from? Are you really trying
> >> to
> >> >> >> > convince
> >> >> >> >> us that AC is soooooo much better, that it can perform
> >> > miracles? Or,
> >> >> >> > are
> >> >> >> >> you just assuming that only AC system can uses LiIons? By
> >> the
> >> > way, I
> >> >> >> >> 'do' just charge up and drive home after racing.
> >> >> >> >> My car is anything but race specific, if you're pointing
> >> > fingers this
> >> >> >> >> way. It's got more range than many everyday conversions, and
> >> it's
> >> >> >> > driven
> >> >> >> >> often. Unlike the Wright Speed you're so stoked about, my
> >> car
> >> >> > actually
> >> >> >> >> has doors you can lock, windows that roll up and down,
> >> >> >> >> a roof over your head, and full body work....which car did
> >> you
> >> >> > say was
> >> >> >> >> race specific?
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >If it wasn't for Otmar, EV drag racing would not be where
> >> it is
> >> >> > today
> >> >> >> >> >for many folks.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> So Otmar single handedly invented electric drag racing? I
> >> > think he'd
> >> >> >> >> find that amusing!
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >Not everyone can get a battery sponsorship
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> That's correct. It takes years of hard work, creativity,
> >> > ingenuity,
> >> >> >> >> dedication, credibility, and real documented results to
> >> 'earn'
> >> >> >> > sponsorship.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Mike, you need to get out more :-) If you think a low
> >> quality
> >> > kit car
> >> >> >> >> that doesn't have the average features of an econobox sedan
> >> > (doors,
> >> >> >> >> widows, etc.) with an inverter, AC motor, and ultra high
> >> cost
> >> >> > batteries
> >> >> >> >> is state of the art...or...if you think a few twisted tubes
> >> with
> >> >> > tires
> >> >> >> >> at each corner and exaggerated stats obtained from
> >> over-zealous
> >> >> >> >> marketeers is state of the art, please at least take a look
> >> at
> >> > a real
> >> >> >> >> honest effort such as the Tesla. Moreover, fly to Portland
> >> at the
> >> >> >> > end of
> >> >> >> >> next month and take in the Late Night Drags and join in with
> >> >> > EVers that
> >> >> >> >> prove their claims using real cars at a bona fide NHRA
> >> track.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Mike, you might want to take a more objective look at the
> >> > prototypes
> >> >> >> > you
> >> >> >> >> rave about, and ask yourself why the AC systems have to be
> >> >> > installed in
> >> >> >> >> minimalist vehicles to get their 'claimed' performance
> >> levels,
> >> >> > why most
> >> >> >> >> all of those claims of outrageous performance can't be
> >> > verified with
> >> >> >> >> real NHRA time slips, why during testing they use techniques
> >> >> > recognized
> >> >> >> >> by 'real' racers not to be credible (rolling starts, waving
> >> of a
> >> >> > flag,
> >> >> >> >> hand-held stop watches), and why both the AC Propulsion
> >> crowd
> >> > and the
> >> >> >> >> Wright Speed group have never, ever, shown up at any
> >> > sanctioned NEDRA
> >> >> >> >> EVent (even after numerous courteous invites) where their
> >> vehicles
> >> >> >> > could
> >> >> >> >> be raced against substantial, production quality 'cars' with
> >> > what you
> >> >> >> >> view as caveman technology. The answer to most any thinking
> >> >> > individual
> >> >> >> >> is obvious.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >PS the next time someone tries to sell you on how great DC
> >> > systems
> >> >> >> >> >are, ask him how many AC systems he's owned ;)
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> You don't need to own an AC system to know all about it. I'd
> >> >> > argue that
> >> >> >> >> I have far more experience in AC cars than you'll ever have.
> >> >> >> >> I'd ask this question...."The next time someone tries to
> >> sell
> >> > you on
> >> >> >> > how
> >> >> >> >> great AC systems are, note that the system is installed in a
> >> >> > minimalist
> >> >> >> >> vehicle and that installed in a real car or truck, the AC
> >> system
> >> >> > dollar
> >> >> >> >> for dollar has inferior acceleration and about the same
> >> range per
> >> >> >> > charge
> >> >> >> >> as a DC system. Better yet, the next time someone tries to
> >> sell
> >> >> > you on
> >> >> >> >> how great AC systems are, strap him into a Zilla Z2K, DC
> >> > powered EV,
> >> >> >> >> show them what 400 kw feels like, and scare the hell out of
> >> them!"
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> See Ya......John Wayland
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > --
> >> >> >> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> >> >> >> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >> >> >> > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release
> >> Date:
> >> >> > 7/28/2006
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> >> >> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >> >> >> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date:
> >> >> > 7/28/2006
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> >> >> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >> >> > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date:
> >> > 7/28/2006
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> >> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >> >> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date:
> >> > 7/28/2006
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> >> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >> > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date:
> >> 7/28/2006
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date:
> >> 7/28/2006
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date:
7/28/2006
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date:
7/28/2006
>
--- End Message ---
