EV Digest 5751
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: An interesting EV concept
by "Orlando Ferrassoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Fiberglass box questions
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Batteries in parallel...
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Fiberglass box questions
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: An interesting EV concept
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) newbie questions
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: Zebra batteries
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: An interesting EV concept
by "Orlando Ferrassoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: An interesting EV concept
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: An Electric GAZ! COOL!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: An interesting EV concept
by "Orlando Ferrassoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: No dc-dc converters
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Who Killed the Electric Car
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) =?Windows-1252?Q?EV=92s_show_at_the_Alaska_Renewable_Energy_Fair?=
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: My ICE Costs
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Fiberglass box questions
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Fiberglass box questions
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Zebra batteries
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) WKTEC in Winter Park, FL
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
My son just sent me this link. I am a rookie but very interested in EV's and
have been reading this list as well as several books on EV's for several
months now, but I am a first time writer here.
I thought this was worth sharing with you guys. Your comments would be
appreciated.
http://www.gizmowatch.com
Orlando S. Ferrassoli
Freightways Operations
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hehe
Hi Cory. At least, we agree on the Gougeons (West System) :)
Carbon *used* to be super-expensive (for boat constructon at least,
compared to the alternatives), but is seen now commonly in spars for
windsurfers, bicycle frames, etc etc.
I'm sure Dave can do his own googling, but Wiki here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphite-reinforced_plastic
Here is a site for a UK supplier of carbon and glass that provides at
least some comparison costs carbon vs glass.
http://www.carbonology.com/shop.asp?PC_ID=3220&pf_id=90&sec_id=2116
or tiny:
http://tinyurl.com/o8na2
I guess my real concern originally, with carbon, was conductivity
around stray currents (although I didn't mention it)
And I guess my last 2 cents (Cdn) would be to suggest that Dave ask his
questions to a boat builder <smile>. I don't think ya can find a better
buncha builders online than here:
http://boatdesign.net/forums/
I didn't really mean to get offtrack w/Dave's questions by bringing up
carbon vs glass!
Tks
Lock
Toronto
--- Cory Cross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Dave,
> I haven't found a lot of information on acid/base resistance of
> epoxy or polyester resins. Epoxy is better than polyester in every
> way
> except price -- safer to work with, stronger, better water
> resistance,
> etc. One of the best epoxies on the market is West System (
> http://www.westsystem.com/ ). They'll answer technical questions
> quickly
> and tell you exactly what you need. For boats, I believe they suggest
>
> three coats of epoxy for wood in a marine environment. Adding
> fiberglass
> will increase the strength/weight ratio, but increase the price. It
> is
> your call where that line is drawn (or to even use fiberglass at all
> --
> it is the epoxy that protects against the environment).
>
> If you decide to add fiberglass, use the cheapest per "ounces/sq.
>
> yard". I've found very inexpensive woven roving from
> www.fiberglasssite.com . Composites made of woven roving are slightly
>
> weaker per pound than more expensive weaves. Woven roving will show
> its
> pattern, so if you want a smoother surface, cover it with some 4oz
> fabric, possibly with fancier weaves if you want an extremely flat
> surface.
>
> Fiberglass has its strength in line with the fiber, so the forces
>
> should be parallel to the fiber direction.
>
> I would suggest whatever your build method, you should use a
> sheet
> of polypropylene between your batteries and the box as the protection
>
> from the battery liquid. Roland Wiench has written about his battery
> boxes in depth. His information is exactly what you need.
>
> Finally, I disagree with Lock on a few points. I've read that
> coring
> is not to increase strength, but to increase stiffness. (I'm sorry I
> can't find a reference -- I believe it was in www.expoxyworks.com
> somewhere). The other, expensive fibers are used to increase some
> aspect
> per pound; I don't think you want to shell out for carbon fiber to
> save
> two pounds here, especially since you'd have to steal it from an
> aerospace defense contractor*! You don't need to squeeze out the
> extra
> resin, just smooth it out for extra protection.
>
> Good luck,
> Cory Cross
>
> *Carbon fiber supply is pretty-much used up for airplanes and such in
>
> the Middle East
>
> Dave Cover wrote:
>
> >I'm considering building some battery boxes out of fiberglass and
> wood. I have no experience
> >working with fiberglass, but lot's with wood. The box will be about
> 14 inches wide and about 33
> >inches long. The box will be supported primarily from the top edge,
> with one cross brace
> >underneath about 2/3 down it's lenght. I'll run some wooden slats
> the long way down the box floor
> >for support. It will need to hold around 225 lbs of cells. Building
> a box out of plywood is easy,
> >but it will suffer from road salt and electrolyte. Paint will help,
> but that's a short term
> >solution. If I use fiberglass, it will not be affected by the
> environment, but I don't know how to
> >make it strong enough by itself. So I'm looking to make a wooden box
> and fiberglass it. Not an
> >original idea.
> >
> >Here are my questions, all from a fiberglass newbie;
> >1. How many layers should I put down to to protect the wood?
> >2. Am i better off using 3/4" plywood and a thin glass skin or
> thinner plywood and more glass?
> >2. How thick are the layers of applied fiberglass, (for planning
> dimensions?) Is one layer 1/8th
> >of an inch, 2 layers 3/16ths?
> >3. How structural can the fiberglass be? If I build up a 1/4 inch
> layer, is that stronger than the
> >wooden box?
> >4. What type of fiberglass should I use? I've seen Knytex, Volan
> treated, etc.
> >5. What weight cloth? 8oz, double layer 4.4 oz?
> >6. What type of resin should I use to resist the NiCd electrolyte?
> >
> >Sorry about the tenderfoot questions, any help is appreciated.
> >
> >Thanks
> >
> >Dave Cover
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Every time you charge and discharge them, the state of charge of each
battery gets further apart from it's parallel partner. So you have to
charge them separately some times or they will end up so far apart
that one is either always over charged or over discharged. So taking
cables off to do this makes it a high maintenance item. The deeper you
discharge them the more often they will have to charged separately.
One separate string in parallel with another separate string is more
manageable. Then charging each string separately is easier, and you're
more likely to do it as a maintenance item.
If you can avoid paralleling you are doing yourself a favor. It has
been done sucessfully. But it's not easy.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Joe Plumer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Does anyone run batteries in parallel?
>
> If so, what is the result?
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks everyone for the replies. I'm liking the idea of building a wood box and
sealing it with
glass more and more. I have some very nice 5 layer 1/4" plywood to build the
box with. I'll
probably bond two layers together to get 1/2" material. I'll glass the box
inside and out when
it's built. The inside layer will probably be thinner, but I'll add more to the
outside for
protection and a little more strength. I'll also add some slats along the
bottom for added weight
carrying ability.
I have another question about fiberglassing. How well does fiberglass take
sawing and drilling? I
was thinking of putting a single layer of fiberglass on some of the plywood
before I cut it to
size. I'll seal up the joints after the box is built. I thought it might be
easier to do it before
the box is built. Is this more trouble than it's worth?
Thanks
Dave COver
--- Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dave, i've done a fair bit of fiberglass working making body parts, but
> not structural stuff. I'd assume that the glass is basically sealing
> off the wood, and given you know wood, make the wood strong, and use a
> thin layer should be sufficient.
> The resin holds it together, so it should be as thick as the glass
> itself. For resin, epoxy is more expensive but doesn't create bad
> fumes, your wife and neighbors will appreciate using the epoxy, and it
> doesn't shrink like the other stuff, so I'd use it.
> Hope that helps,
> Jack
>
> Dave Cover wrote:
> > I'm considering building some battery boxes out of fiberglass and wood. I
> > have no experience
> > working with fiberglass, but lot's with wood. The box will be about 14
> > inches wide and about
> 33
> > inches long. The box will be supported primarily from the top edge, with
> > one cross brace
> > underneath about 2/3 down it's lenght. I'll run some wooden slats the long
> > way down the box
> floor
> > for support. It will need to hold around 225 lbs of cells. Building a box
> > out of plywood is
> easy,
> > but it will suffer from road salt and electrolyte. Paint will help, but
> > that's a short term
> > solution. If I use fiberglass, it will not be affected by the environment,
> > but I don't know
> how to
> > make it strong enough by itself. So I'm looking to make a wooden box and
> > fiberglass it. Not an
> > original idea.
> >
> > Here are my questions, all from a fiberglass newbie;
> > 1. How many layers should I put down to to protect the wood?
> > 2. Am i better off using 3/4" plywood and a thin glass skin or thinner
> > plywood and more glass?
> > 2. How thick are the layers of applied fiberglass, (for planning
> > dimensions?) Is one layer
> 1/8th
> > of an inch, 2 layers 3/16ths?
> > 3. How structural can the fiberglass be? If I build up a 1/4 inch layer, is
> > that stronger than
> the
> > wooden box?
> > 4. What type of fiberglass should I use? I've seen Knytex, Volan treated,
> > etc.
> > 5. What weight cloth? 8oz, double layer 4.4 oz?
> > 6. What type of resin should I use to resist the NiCd electrolyte?
> >
> > Sorry about the tenderfoot questions, any help is appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Dave Cover
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> My son just sent me this link. I am a rookie but very interested in
EV's and
> have been reading this list as well as several books on EV's for several
> months now, but I am a first time writer here.
>
> I thought this was worth sharing with you guys. Your comments would be
> appreciated.
>
> http://www.gizmowatch.com
A 26kwh pack means they get over 10mi/kwh - not unheard of (done
before with common DC systems) but at what speed are they testing?
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--- Begin Message ---
> Four those of you who asked, the quote from the UK supplier for a
20kWh Zebra battery is about £8000 including BMS.
>
> Even in the UK where gas is double the price you pay in the US you
would have to do quite a bit of mileage on this battery before it
starts to pay its way.
>
> Ron
>
That's $750/kWh. That seems competitive - anyone have a quote with BMS
from a lithium supplier?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The range seems quite impressive, the claim of charging and recharging fast
also sounds great, but unfortunately they do not go into specifics. Here is
what they say...
'Zooop' that takes you 450 km per charge. The three-seater 690 kg car runs
on powerful Lithium Polymer batteries (70 A/hour 370 V) that don't let you
down by generating 150 kW of power and still maintaining their cool, and
charging and recharging fast. The Zooop can reach speeds of 180 km/h
Any idea how much those batteries would cost?
Orlando S. Ferrassoli
Operations
Ph: 661 273-2220
Fx: 661 273-2221
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Death to All Spammers
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 9:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: An interesting EV concept
> My son just sent me this link. I am a rookie but very interested in
EV's and
> have been reading this list as well as several books on EV's for several
> months now, but I am a first time writer here.
>
> I thought this was worth sharing with you guys. Your comments would be
> appreciated.
>
> http://www.gizmowatch.com
A 26kwh pack means they get over 10mi/kwh - not unheard of (done
before with common DC systems) but at what speed are they testing?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It looks like an mouse for a Mac.
As someone who lives in Texas, I see that big plastic bubble and think
140F greenhouse. But that's something that could be designed out. This
is more of a mockup, it doesn't appear to even have any roll protection.
Danny
Orlando Ferrassoli wrote:
My son just sent me this link. I am a rookie but very interested in EV's and
have been reading this list as well as several books on EV's for several
months now, but I am a first time writer here.
I thought this was worth sharing with you guys. Your comments would be
appreciated.
http://www.gizmowatch.com
Orlando S. Ferrassoli
Freightways Operations
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike;
Thanks for the Hesads up. What a cool EV! Wish he could bring it to a
nedra EVent!Soviet mobiles sure look right out of the 50's Meelos would be
the hit of any Cruise Night 'round here! How many folks could EVen FIND
Estonia on the map!? And a GAZ, too He'll have to rename THAT one!<g>
Seeya
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 9:51 PM
Subject: An Electric GAZ!
> Hi folks,
>
> Somehow after the big upgrade of the Album we started attracting EVs
> from further and further afield. One of the latest entries is a 1958
> GAZ from Estonia. You can see it at:
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/846
>
> I have to admit, when I first saw the entry without pictures, I was a
> bit dubious. AC drive in a 1958 Soviet mobile? Well the pictures
> are now in and I am impressed.
>
> Just thought I should share.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
> In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
> position. (Horace)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
140F?
Hey, let's look at the upside...you can cook your eggs (breakfast) inside
your own vehicle on your way to work. Now you have a different hybrid
EV+Solar cooker...Oh the French...
Now on a more serious note. I would like to know how much $$$ goes into
those batteries for that much range...Anyone with an answer?
Orlando S. Ferrassoli
Operations
Ph: 661 273-2220
Fx: 661 273-2221
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 9:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: An interesting EV concept
It looks like an mouse for a Mac.
As someone who lives in Texas, I see that big plastic bubble and think
140F greenhouse. But that's something that could be designed out. This
is more of a mockup, it doesn't appear to even have any roll protection.
Danny
Orlando Ferrassoli wrote:
>My son just sent me this link. I am a rookie but very interested in EV's
and
>have been reading this list as well as several books on EV's for several
>months now, but I am a first time writer here.
>
>I thought this was worth sharing with you guys. Your comments would be
>appreciated.
>
>http://www.gizmowatch.com
>
>
>
>Orlando S. Ferrassoli
>Freightways Operations
>e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff,
I'm working on a DC-DC that takes 120v - 450v and outputs 13.8v @ 1kW
It won't be ready for a few months. I hope there's a market for a few
when I get the design finalized.
--
Martin K
Jeff Shanab wrote:
Dc-Dc converters for the higher voltage packs are ominously missing from
all web sites that sell ev stuff except metricmind.
What gives? we need an Otmar or Rich for dc-dc's !
Universal input 72-450V ? Or a few models(48V-96V) (80-200) (100-400)
13.8V out
sleep mode
key input
waterproof
50Amps
Is this bringing back the DCP?
Signed Desperate EV'er in Fresno,ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5 Aug 2006 at 2:15, John Westlund wrote:
> David, you left out page 96 of that article.
It's fixed now. You can read the Impact article by downloading one of these
:
http://www.evdl.org/docs/impact.zip (3.2mb)
http://www.evdl.org/docs/impact.pdf (15.4mb)
The zip archive contains jpeg scans. The pdf is essentially identical but
its formatting is probably more convenient for some.
I think I've swatted all the bugs - you tell me.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just wanted to give Everyone a report on my adventure to the Alaska Renewable
Energy Fair. From my limited vantage point it
appeared the fair was a huge success. I went to last year’s 1st annual EVent
and this year seemed, well, more electrified. They
were anticipating approx 2000 attendees and I believe they may have exceeded
that number. I probably had over 1000 people view
the Electrabishi, because I know I answered (at least) that many questions.
To start with I’ll say the number of times I got the "why don’t you hook
generator to the wheels and charge while you drive?"
questions was, uhm, about zero. I was amazed. There was one kid at the end
of the day who almost got me to give my standard
answer of "because it doesn’t work" by asking me about putting the wind turbine
on the truck to power it. Then I remember a
thread we had a while back discussing this topic. It actually CAN work but not
very feasibly and not very effectively. So I gave
him the scenario of a wind turbine with 12 diameter blades on a 20 foot pole
driving around town. I know he was driving at the
concept of making your own wind by driving 60 mph and getting the power from
that. However he stumbled over the idea of actually
driving around with the 20 ft pole and 12 ft diameter wind turbine on the
trunk. He he.
So back to the days turnout. Set up was from as early as you wanted until
noon, and the fair ran from noon to 10pm. I arrived at
10am for setup. It was drizzling so I took a 10’x10’ pop-up canopy I bought
the day before for $59. It worked out good and added
some shade to my laptops running slide and video loops.
My setup was fairly simple. And consisted of:
1. 4 ft fold up table
2. Tri-fold foam core poster board with all 5 of the EV Info flyers from
the EAA site, in 11"x17" color. Also taped to the board
were the "Why Electric" tri-fold flyer and the two posters for WKtEC.
3. I had 30 color and 30 B&W copies (each set stapled together in a
pamphlet), 60 color copies of the "Why Electric" tri-fold
flyer, 80 color copies of my EVAlbum page printed on double side pages, and
about 100 business cards with a brief on the
Electrabishi on the front and useful EV links on the back.
4. Two laptops one of which ran still slides of my conversion process.
The other ran a loop of about 30 EV video’s that I’ve
collected. John Waylands videos were the hit, especially the ones with music,
and EVen more especially racing the cops. Because
it was so bright out once the clouds broke I set up a little shelf from the
dash to the back of the seat on the passenger side. I
put both laptops on it and faced it out the passenger window (links to photo's
below).
5. Miscellaneous items such as hammer, box cutter, small rope and twine,
my EV tool kit, duct tape, scotch tape, bunji cords,
extra tarps, extensions cords, power strip, markers, blank paper and the
municipality required Fire Extinguisher (they came and
checked for it too).
6. Lunch-which I didn’t have time to eat, but the local microbrewery set
up a beer garden a couple booths down. Liquid lunch,
hydraulic dinner, something like that :-)
7. Oh yes, the Electrabishi.
I wound up giving away all my material except 3 business cards. I had a signup
sheet for people interested in notifications of
Events and meetings. I got 33 e-mail addresses (and most of their cell phone
numbers) as well as 1 referral to Austin EVA. The guy
was up from Texas, visiting :-)
I borrowed power from Polar Wire who had a solar/wind demo trailer set up next
to me. I could have burned off the pack as I still
got home with 70% SOC.
I was tucked in with all the Hybrids and Waste Veggie Oil vehicles. I felt bad
for my neighbors who were trying to raffle off an
Escape Hybrid as a fundraiser for a nnew recycle center. After people saw it
got ~40 mpg and saw my truck they wondered why
anyone would buy a hybrid. I helped them out a little by stating I could only
get 40 miles and the hybrids were good for long
distances. However I emphasized they could be better with a larger battery,
and a plug :-O
I got several invites to talk for some of the Green organizations and a request
to teach a class at the community college in the
next village north. Many people were interested in doing a conversion of their
own and I encouraged them to attend upcoming
meetings of the soon to be Alaska EVA. I only need one more member to
affiliate with EAA. I'm positive I already had two more
that were going to sign up and have to get at least 1 from today. Many were
serious about doing conversions themselves and even
more asked if I’d do the conversion for them. To be honest I don’t have the
time to do this and provide the support they would
need. But I told them to come to our future meetings and maybe we can get some
auto shops that are hungry for business to do the
grease and body work at a good deal for large quantity of conversions. Several
of the Alternative Power companies seemed
interested in stocking the special parts like breakers, cable, lugs, etc. One
may even take the risk of trying to stock and deal
motors, controllers and chargers.
We’ll see how EVerything turns out. I have a lot to keep me busy now for a
while in compiling the e-mail distribution list and
setting up the local chapter.
A few photos are posted at:
Tri-Fold Poster Board
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/pictures/DSCF3769.JPG
Electrabishi at Alaska Renewable Energy fair
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/pictures/DSCF3772.JPG
Showing Battery Box
(funny I just now noticed the Chevron building in the background)
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/pictures/DSCF3776.JPG
Laptop Slideshows
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/pictures/DSCF3773.JPG
Enjoy
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> So, present day: I did some research on the internet. I was especially
> impressed by the Honda CRX conversion by an electrical engineer in
Oregon
> named Victor Tikhonov whose website is:
> http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/main.htm
>
> Just a gut feeling, but I think Tikhonov's way is the way to go. I'm
doing a
> cost analysis now. One problem: I can't find ANYONE who sells
ultracaps. The
> supercapacitor industry seems to be in flux at the moment. Are they
in a
> hold pattern, waiting for the price to go up?
Victor can supply you with one sweet system, top-of-the-line all the
way, but you need to be comfortable with his price range
(http://metricmind.com/prices.htm).
> > The controller -- was close to $10,000.00.
> >
> > This battery charger package is over $10,000.00.
> >
> > The accessory drive units was about $1000.00 and the Delco
> > alternator-inverter unit was another $1000.00.
> >
> > The GE motor is something else. This motor was design in house to
how the
> > windings are to be done, type, commentator poles, commentator micro
> > mirror, etc. and contract out to GE for building. These motors are
way
> > over $10,000.00.
> >
> > Then there is the vehicle modifications and customizing. This was
done by
> > Creative Industrial in Detroit. This mod includes extending the
car length
> > another foot, a new nose section, reinforced frame sections, heavy
duty
> > suspension system rated for 3500 lbs at each wheel.
>
> I gotta say --- I'm APPALLED at your costs. These are 1975 dollars? I
> thought (hoped) the controllers can be had for $2000 - $3000, battery
> chargers for $300 - $500, AC motors for $5000.
Probably 1975 dollars, so that shows you how far we've come:
A 156V/1000A Zilla *is* $2K, if Otmar can get caught up on his
backorders, or $1500 for a 144V/500A Curtis if he can't;
Chargers are 2-3x that much if you want ones with some smarts, but
about that much (or even less) if you use something that takes human
input to keep the pack alive;
And don't forget $1-2K for a series DC motor. So, $4-5K before
shopping for batteries.
An AC setup runs more for each item.
Most of this equipment will outlast your donor, and could be
transfered to a new ride if you get tired of out-dated car styling or
suffer body damage, so the pack and electricity are the basis for
cost-per-mile.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For a layup schedule I'd just find some 10 ounce glass or better if
you can. The first two layers should be 10 ounce cloth each. If you
want it to look pretty, make the 3rd layer 1 ounce and add some
coloring to the resin. Then you don't ever have to worry about paint
chipping off because you won't be using any. Both the wood and the
cloth are structural. But the cloth is more of a weather proofer in
this case. So go with 1/2" or 5/8" plywood. Get a resin with a long
pot life. It will keep you out of trouble.
Save all of your old credit cards or the fake ones you get in the
mail. They make great spreaders for pushing the resin through the
glass. Epoxy itself has no strength. Only in combination with glass,
etc does it have structural integrity. Thicker resin is a waste,
thicker glass is stronger. Remember that.
Mix the resin (polyester or epoxy) into a shallow container. Maybe 1"
deep. If you mix it in a deeper container then the heat generated
during the catalytic reaction will make the pot life very short. A
shallow container keeps the pot life long by keeping the resin cooler
so you have more time to apply it and that allows it to flow out and
level nicely.
Lay the glass on the box and paint the resin onto the cloth with a
cheapo paint brush. You'll be throwing it away each day. Spread it
fast and sloppy as it's curing. Then take the credit cards and
squeegey the resin toward the dry areas. The idea is to use only as
much resin as is needed to completely wet out the glass without having
a bunch left over. If you have left over and it's starting to gel,
then scrape it off and throw it away. Excess resin does not help
anything. The cloth will tend to stick to the wood. So smooth out the
resin so it makes the cloth lay flat against the wood.
Do the inside of the box completely before going to the outside. When
the inside has set up so it won't run you can then do the outside.
It's not important if the resin completly cures or not for this type
of operation. If you were building a boat it would matter. Try to lay
down the layers every 24 hours if you can. After the inside and
outside are done with the first layer and are cured, then repeat the
process one more layer and that will make sure that all of the pin
holes are filled and your are water tight.
For this operation the type of glass is not that important. Mat works
fine but can be pricey. 0-90 is the most common weave and is probably
the best choice as it's available everywhere. S glass is stronger but
it's also more expensive than E glass. Carbon requires special shears
to cut. Kevlar requires yet another type of shears to cut, although
scissors will work but will be ruined in short order. With wood as the
main structure I'd just find the cheapest glass around and use it. I
love Carbon and Kevlar, I have rolls of it in the garage. But it's a
special purpose material that will just slow you down. I can show you
pictures of nicely molded parts that I've made for racing, but weather
proofing a wooden box with glass is the best application as glass will
flex a tiny bit and Carbon and Kevlar will not. Besides, you cannot
sand Kevlar. The resin will go away but the Kevlar will not go
anywhere. It just ends up a fuzzy mess. If you are lazy like me you
can get that last layer to flow out nicely and won't ned to sand at
all. Especially with a 1 ounce finish lay of glass, it will tend to
come out very flat and nice.
With these 3 layer done as described the total thickness will be maybe
1/16" on each surface, because you scraped off the excess with a
credit card.
This was my secret use of credit cards that got me such an excellent
credit rating.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I'm considering building some battery boxes out of fiberglass and
wood. I have no experience
> working with fiberglass, but lot's with wood. The box will be about
14 inches wide and about 33
> inches long. The box will be supported primarily from the top edge,
with one cross brace
> underneath about 2/3 down it's lenght. I'll run some wooden slats
the long way down the box floor
> for support. It will need to hold around 225 lbs of cells. Building
a box out of plywood is easy,
> but it will suffer from road salt and electrolyte. Paint will help,
but that's a short term
> solution. If I use fiberglass, it will not be affected by the
environment, but I don't know how to
> make it strong enough by itself. So I'm looking to make a wooden box
and fiberglass it. Not an
> original idea.
>
> Here are my questions, all from a fiberglass newbie;
> 1. How many layers should I put down to to protect the wood?
> 2. Am i better off using 3/4" plywood and a thin glass skin or
thinner plywood and more glass?
> 2. How thick are the layers of applied fiberglass, (for planning
dimensions?) Is one layer 1/8th
> of an inch, 2 layers 3/16ths?
> 3. How structural can the fiberglass be? If I build up a 1/4 inch
layer, is that stronger than the
> wooden box?
> 4. What type of fiberglass should I use? I've seen Knytex, Volan
treated, etc.
> 5. What weight cloth? 8oz, double layer 4.4 oz?
> 6. What type of resin should I use to resist the NiCd electrolyte?
>
> Sorry about the tenderfoot questions, any help is appreciated.
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And don't forget, new wet wood will cause voltage leakage.
David C. Wilker Jr.
United States Air Force, Retired
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 2:32 AM
Subject: Re: Fiberglass box questions
Hi Dave and All,
No reason to use glass as wood is quite
strong enough, heck I built my whole EV body/chassis from
it.
Just make sure it has very strong coner
joints as batts are very heavy.
Then coat it with a boat or aircraft clear
epoxy made for wood or just paint it with enamel. If your
joinier isn't good, you could tape the seems with
fiberglass, not cloth but something heavier and epoxy.
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Fiberglass box questions
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:22:59 -0700
Dave, i've done a fair bit of fiberglass working making
body parts, but not structural stuff. I'd assume that the
glass is basically sealing off the wood, and given you
know wood, make the wood strong, and use a thin layer
should be sufficient. The resin holds it together, so it
should be as thick as the glass itself. For resin, epoxy
is more expensive but doesn't create bad fumes, your wife
and neighbors will appreciate using the epoxy, and it
doesn't shrink like the other stuff, so I'd use it. Hope
that helps, Jack
Dave Cover wrote:
I'm considering building some battery boxes out of
fiberglass and wood. I have no experience working with
fiberglass, but lot's with wood. The box will be about 14
inches wide and about 33 inches long. The box will be
supported primarily from the top edge, with one cross
brace underneath about 2/3 down it's lenght. I'll run some
wooden slats the long way down the box floor for support.
It will need to hold around 225 lbs of cells. Building a
box out of plywood is easy, but it will suffer from road
salt and electrolyte. Paint will help, but that's a short
term solution. If I use fiberglass, it will not be
affected by the environment, but I don't know how to make
it strong enough by itself. So I'm looking to make a wooden
box and fiberglass it. Not an original idea.
Here are my questions, all from a fiberglass newbie;
1. How many layers should I put down to to protect the
wood? 2. Am i better off using 3/4" plywood and a thin
glass skin or thinner plywood and more glass? 2. How
thick are the layers of applied fiberglass, (for planning
dimensions?) Is one layer 1/8th of an inch, 2 layers
3/16ths? 3. How structural can the fiberglass be? If I
build up a 1/4 inch layer, is that stronger than the
wooden box? 4. What type of fiberglass should I use? I've
seen Knytex, Volan treated, etc. 5. What weight cloth?
8oz, double layer 4.4 oz? 6. What type of resin should I
use to resist the NiCd electrolyte?
Sorry about the tenderfoot questions, any help is
appreciated.
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Competitive to what?
I'd love to pack the energy of LiIon in a lightweight
car, but with my current $2200 for a 34kWh pack this
is less than 10% of the cost. I know - lead is not
a competition to LiIon in many ways, but if I would
wait until I can afford LiIon, I would still not be
driving an EV every day.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Death to All Spammers
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 9:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Zebra batteries
> Four those of you who asked, the quote from the UK supplier for a
20kWh Zebra battery is about £8000 including BMS.
>
> Even in the UK where gas is double the price you pay in the US you
would have to do quite a bit of mileage on this battery before it
starts to pay its way.
>
> Ron
>
That's $750/kWh. That seems competitive - anyone have a quote with BMS
from a lithium supplier?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So yesterday I went out and talked to people about why they can't buy an
electric car in America. We were hoping to raise awareness of the
issues and maybe get a few people to go watch the movie "Who Killed the
Electric Car?". You can see my synopsis (with pictures) on my website,
http://judebert.com/ , but I'll repeat it here:
Charles drove from South Florida to Winter Park in two 100-mile legs,
stopping overnight and charging. His RAV4 EV made it easy to attract
attention. I enjoyed talking to people about it. I especially liked it
when the standard conversation got to the "How much does it cost?"
question, because of the variety of reactions when I told them, "Oh, you
can't have one."
That was also a great segue to the movie. When I explained that Toyota
no longer made these 120-mile, reliable, zero-emission cars, the
inevitable question was, "Why not?" And the easy response was, "Well,
there's this movie playing *right now* in *this theater*..."
Hugh was the guy who set it all up. He was a tireless advocate for
electric vehicles, but he recognized the prevailing fears of his
audience, too. By the end of the night, we were all on the same page,
and the discussions were all winding up with a reminder about Toyota's
recent announcement of the plug-in Prius. It'll go 30 miles on a charge
before the gas engine kicks in -- enough for 90% of all American's daily
driving. I'm hoping that, as drivers realize that they're doing most of
their trips on batteries alone, they'll decide to replace the gas parts
with extra batteries and do all their driving that way.
Of course, I'm just cynical enough to realize that it's unlikely.
Instead, I'm hoping they'll buy the plug-in Prius for their own reasons,
and eventually the battery pack will be cheap and available. Then I can
replace my own batteries the NiMH, and increase my range while I reduce
my weight!
Although I don't have a picture of him, Larry was there talking about
his solar car. This thing goes 40mph while the sun is shining (welcome
to Florida!) and stores energy in the batteries to keep going, even in
the dark. In fact, a one-hour charge lets it go 200miles at 60mph.
Larry didn't bring the car; he said it was too hot. And I believe him;
the RAV4's temperature gauges were registering 100 degrees Farenheight!
By far, the biggest draw was Peter and his Mercedes-Benz Smart Car.
Everyone thought it was cute, there was always a crowd around it. Girls
posed with it (sorry I couldn't get any pictures of that). There are
750,000 of these in Europe; you even saw one in The DaVinci Code.
Mercedes isn't importing the electric version, so Peter imports all the
pieces and converts them on his own. 40 miles on a charge with 120
volts of Optima YellowTops. And it turns out he lives just down the
street from me! I thought I was the only EV in Central Florida, but
Peter has made a better car than mine. Nathan says there's nothing for
it but to kill him.
For standing around and talking, it was a lot of fun. Hugh has some
experience at protesting, and he said we were doing a great job. The
sun is a power to be reckoned with in Florida, and we paid the price.
But these stormtroopers must have had it worse than we did. The
costumes were quite nice; they even included speakers, leading to a
realistic sound for conversation. No, they're not really pointing those
blasters at us.
This policeman did make me nervous, though. Yesterday he had confronted
the film students, because they were asking for donations. Luckily, we
weren't doing anything of th sort, and we had the full permission of the
theater owner. So maybe he just wanted to know more about the Smart Car.
The only dark spot to my day -- besides the heat, dehydration, and
aching feet -- was the one aggressive guy. I knew, theoretically, that
there were people like this, but I hadn't really prepared myself for
this. He came up with a look in his eye that let me know he was going
to be trouble. He waited a second, then bust in on my conversation
with: "You know, gas cars are pretty damn efficient. If you put 7
pounds of fuel in a gas car, it'll actually take you pretty far, but if
you put 7 pounds of batteries in one of these, it won't even get you out
the door."
As unprepared as I was, I didn't use the obvious rejoinders, like
pointing out that the gas car burns its fuel, but the batteries stick
around; so the batteries aren't the fuel, just the tank. I didn't
mention that those same 7 pounds of fuel, burned at the plant to create
electricity, would power an electric car about 3 times as far as the
same fuel in a gas car. No, I just tried to deflect his attack: "I'm
not even going to try to argue range, but when you look beyond that, you
start to see the other advantages of an electric car." I started to
elaborate, but he wasn't really interested in hearing: he interrupted
and then walked off.
Ah, well. I'll be ready next time.
All in all, an excellent experience. I'd be willing to do it again.
In about a year or so, I think.
--- End Message ---
