EV Digest 5769
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: What does it take to convert a truck?
by "Jody Dewey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: more stopping power? no vacuum
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: NEC Tokin Supercaps was Re: EUROPOSITRON or was it ESMA...
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) emeter problem fixed
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: more stopping power? no vacuum
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: What does it take to convert a truck?
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Charles Whalen, WKTEC, and filet mignon
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Solar charging an EV - off grid
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV digest 5766
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Solar charging an EV - off grid
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Plug in Hybrid retro fits for Prius, Escape wanted for NY state - now:
NYS EVs
by "mike young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: more stopping power? no vacuum
by Joe Vitek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Plug in Hybrid retro fits for Prius, Escape wanted for NY state - now:
NYS EVs
by "chestnutforge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: What does it take to convert a truck?
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV digest 5766
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV digest 5766
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: What does it take to convert a truck?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Efficency formula (was Re: EV digest 5766)
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Efficency formula (was Re: EV digest 5766)
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV digest 5766
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) EV range calculation - reply to jess shanab
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) smell a rat ... or at least a PR campaign getting under way?
by Sam Thurber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: IGBTs and DC controllers
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: IGBTs and DC controllers
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: EV digest 5766
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Solectria BC3kW Chargers
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: EV digest 5766
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: was: Plug in Hybrid retro fits for Prius,
Escape wanted for NY state - now: NYS EVs
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) RE: IGBTs and DC controllers
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) RE: Efficency formula (was Re: EV digest 5766)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I would think a single 13" netgain WarP would do nicely mated up to your
transmission.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John G. Lussmyer
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 6:02 PM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: What does it take to convert a truck?
Ok, since I'm sans EV right now, and I'm going to soon have a nice
new (empty) shop building with nice new tools, I'm seriously thinking
of doing a conversion.
I'm interested in a pickup truck - and it needs to still have a
useful payload capacity after conversion!
I'm wondering if something like a Ford F-250 might work. Payload is
around 3700 lbs, and GVWR is 8800 lbs (that includes payload doesn't it?)
So, say you used a pack of 40 T105's. That's 240V and about 2400
lbs. Hopefully most/all of them would fit under the bed and under the hood.
Use a Z2KHV. Assume the truck still has a 5 or 6 speed manual transmission.
What motor would be appropriate so it's not a complete slug? Is that
even possible?
It would need to be able to cruise and maintain 60mph over rolling hills.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I remember GM using power steering system to operate the brake booster,
sometime around the late 70's? The engines were not producing enough vacuum
by then to make the power brakes work properly.
David C. Wilker Jr.
United States Air Force, Retired
----- Original Message -----
From: "BFRListmail" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: more stopping power? no vacuum
Many Diesel vehicles, I know Dodge Trucks for sure use the power steering
fluid through the brake booster to assist the braking. If there's a
diesel
version of your vehicle, you're good to go.
Darin Gilbert
BadFishRacing
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lockwood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 7:59 PM
Subject: more stopping power? no vacuum
2 - 3 times more stopping power, driven from the pressure of the power
steering unit ( no vacuum ) from summit,
by power brake service company.
any one used these uints?
thanks
jim
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.1/421 - Release Date: 8/16/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Unlike a battery with a near constant voltage until the chemistry wears
out, a capacitor is an electrostatic storage device and the amount of
charge is related to the voltage from 0 to max
You can generally only use 1/2 the charge on a capacitor in general. And
you need a Bi-directional dc-dc converter to utilize more than 10%-20%
of it.
Imagine you have a typical Z1k and manage to get 300V worth of caps.
This will work ok for a bit as the zilla keeps the voltage to 170 max at
the motor. The caps deliver max amps because of the voltage difference
but when the cap drops to 150, half the charge is gone and current flow
is zero because the voltage diff is 0. They won't bounce back if you
back out of the pedal. It is like a seriously high amp pack that sags
like a pig.
Insert a dc-dc to start boosting the voltage and current can continue to
flow.
But if you have 100V worth of caps the charge drops fast and becomes
useless really fast.
look at it this way the voltage of a dead 12V lead battery is 12V
SOC of 50% is 12.something
the capacitor is at 6V at 50% SOC. Nothing to push the other 30% out.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was unable to run my emeter off of 12V, it kept browning out, I hooked
it to the bottom 2 batteries in the pack, 24 V and forgot about it. It
doesn't use enough power to unbalance the pack.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
BTW, I performed a simple test once on a brake booster that may have
some Conversion uses. I mentioned it on the list but new people are
here all the time.
I left the vacuum line open and made a plug with an o-ring around the
shaft in back and put air pressure at 14psi off a regulator. The
operation was Identical to having engine vacuum on the line and
atmospheric pressure on the back.
Air usage was very low. I considered having an air tank and a backup 12V
compressor. I would dump fill the tank at home to 100 psi and the
compressor would kick in if it got below 50 or I decided to fill up a
tire on the roadside. Even the super quiet vacuum pump I have bugs me. I
even calculated that a paintball tank regulated down should last months.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:48 PM 8/17/2006, Tom Shay wrote:
An F-250 or similar truck with big payload capacity and capable of
cruising up hills at 60 mpg would be a difficult and expensive
challenge.
F-250s are heavy. The smallest weigh about 6000 lbs empty and with
4WD, crew cab and 8-foot box the weight is about 7000 lbs. If you
As far as I can tell, a regular cab, long bed, F250 is about 5000 lbs empty.
Remove the big heavy engine and save a few hundred more.
We are definitely NOT talking about a 12,000 lb vehicle!
I haven't read about anyone doing what you propose. I suspect that
when people start to realize how much motor and batteries would be
needed they forget about it. Consider what it takes to make a good
compact pickup EV like an S-10 or Ranger and plan on 2 or 3 times
as much motor, batteries and controller.
Did you even read my message?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to Joe and All,
Joe Vitek wrote:
I just wanted to post my experience...the arrival of Charles Whalen's RAV-4 EV.
Charles arrived at my house on Friday at around 8am to get in a 4-5hour charge
before heading to Orlando....Well, it went like this...I had a wild and
wonderful weekend.
Joe, what a great post! You left out important details...rare, medium,
or medium well? You know, you and Charles should hop on a plane and come
out to the Wild West for the EV drags next weekend!
What did y'all do?
Joe, believe it or not, you pretty much described the average 'day in
the life' around here! In what seems to have been a constant whirlwind
of EV activity since the end of June to present, I've gone from EV
get-togethers and high voltage weekend drag racing, to an Alaska trip,
to the big Seattle car show, to more weekend drags with film crews from
Seattle, to the WKTEC premiere and hanging with Chris Paine, to spending
time with out of town EV friends, to more drag racing, to the better
part of a week with the Dateline Australia filming episode, to the
Wayland Invitational, to last weekend's drag racing, to the recent
Oregonian sports article interview and car demo, and yet somehow, I've
also been working on White Zombie's most recent improvements in both my
backyard EV shop and at the Summit metal fab shop. Interspersed between
all this, I've been traveling a lot for work (this week I've been
instructing in central eastern Washington). It's going to go from just
crazy to insane in the next week as everyone arrives in town for the BIG
Late Night Nationals as the Wayland EV Juice Bar goes into overload...oh
yeah....let's not forget Car and Driver magazine is coming to town!
We've invited the big names in current EV activity to come as well.
Again, that was a fun post to read this morning. Thanks for allowing us
in on your escapades with Charles.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not really. I've been installing these at remote communications sites since
1997 and they were $500-$600 ea ($400 with company
discount). I can still get them for $400 with company discount and I've seen
some online outfits selling them straight out for
$400. You have to be careful about which model/version you buy though for the
price advertised. They come in 12V, 24V and 48V,
Standard, Marine and Industrial, and with internal or external regulators. All
combinations affect the price but in general the
typical home application unit shouldn't be more than $500. These and other
small wind turbines have been ~$1/watt for a while
now. These Air403's have been extremely popular with home users. They are
extremely ruged, very lite (~13 lbs), extremely easy
to use but can be a little on the noisy side in high wind. However you can
just short the windings with a switch and it'll slow
the blades to barely moving and stop making power. Then you need a dump pack
to store all the power while your at work or driving
around. The down side is that you'll need an inverter off the 112v, 24v or 48v
dump pack to run your charger.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
>Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
> http://www.air403windgenerators.com/AIR_403.html
> wow the price has almost doubled in the last few years.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nice formula! A couple thoughts why it is 0.6, which implies the car
gets more efficient per pound the heavier it is:
A bigger car is aerodynamically more efficient per pound than a
smaller one. Figure the weight goes about as the volume, but the aero
drag goes as the frontal area. In other words, if you double the
weight of a vehicle you can carry twice as many batteries, but the
front area only grows by about 1.6.
Another thought is the bigger vehicles tend to have controllers
instead of on/off, bigger and hence slightly more efficient motors,
and higher voltages (again slightly more efficient).
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> What you need for on-the-spot range estimation is the
> rutman range formula. In short, the range R (in km)
> is given as a function of battery capacity B(of any type, in kWh,
> best at the 20C level) and total vehicle weight W (in kg) by:
>
> R = 250 B / (W^0.6)
>
> So for instance for a 1000kg rig you will get 4km for every kWh of
> stored
> battery energy.
> For you american types who dont dig the metric system and all its
> attendant
> elegance, there is a lucky cancellation (good thing nobody is using
> foot-pounds
> or league-bars x ft^2 for stored energy) that makes the formula
> look exactly
> the same in cowboy units:
>
> R[miles] = 250 B [kWh] / (W[lbs]^.6)
>
> so your range in miles for 10kWh of battery in a 2200lb car (thats
> total weight,
> including the batteries) would be a cool 25 miles or so.
>
> This formula does the right derating of range per stored kWh of
> battery energy
> due to extra weight, its not a simple R= k B/W relation (as used
> by sandorsky
> or the massimo rule-of-thumb) but
> rather a 0.6 power of weight that comes in. Why ?
> I dont know, thats just how it seems to go according to the data
> from
> several hundred vehicles listed at the austinev.org site.
> The formula is good for mopeds, bikes, cars trucks etc.
> Check out the exciting full-color graphs at the yahoogroups ev
> forum pictures or files link.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<Typo mode off> ...you'll need an inverter off the 12v, 24v or 48v dump pack to
run your charger....
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Willmon
> Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 10:01 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Solar charging an EV - off grid
>
>
> Not really. I've been installing these at remote communications sites since
> 1997 and they were $500-$600 ea ($400 with company
> discount). I can still get them for $400 with company discount and I've seen
> some online outfits selling them straight out for
> $400. You have to be careful about which model/version you buy though for
> the price advertised. They come in 12V, 24V and 48V,
> Standard, Marine and Industrial, and with internal or external regulators.
> All combinations affect the price but in general the
> typical home application unit shouldn't be more than $500. These and other
> small wind turbines have been ~$1/watt for a while
> now. These Air403's have been extremely popular with home users. They are
> extremely ruged, very lite (~13 lbs), extremely easy
> to use but can be a little on the noisy side in high wind. However you can
> just short the windings with a switch and it'll slow
> the blades to barely moving and stop making power. Then you need a dump pack
> to store all the power while your at work
> or driving
> around. The down side is that you'll need an inverter off the 112v, 24v or
> 48v dump pack to run your charger.
>
> Mike,
> Anchorage, Ak.
>
>
> >Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
> >
> > http://www.air403windgenerators.com/AIR_403.html
> > wow the price has almost doubled in the last few years.
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have registered a few solectrias and it is no problem they register just
like anything else with the spot on the title for fuel type marked as
electric and the title usually shows the car as a chevy metro but sometimes
shows it as a solectria which throws a slight curve ball at them at motor
vehicles office. mike young
----- Original Message -----
From: "DM3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 10:43 PM
Subject: was: Plug in Hybrid retro fits for Prius, Escape wanted for NY
state - now: NYS EVs
Regarding EVs in NYS, is there anyone on this list that has one or more
EVs licensed in the state of NY?
I would just like to know if/how NYS caters to homebuilt EVs.
How elaborate are the two year inspections?
Are there any discounts for plates or renewals?
How are conversions like Solectria or JET handled?
Any info is appreciated.
Thanks,
Jimmy
> From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
New York State Aims to Convert its Hybrid Fleet to Plug-Ins
A new $10 million effort in New York State is geared toward
converting the state's hybrid fleet-consisting mostly of
Toyota Priuses and Ford Hybrid Escapes-into plug-in
hybrids.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave wrote:
>
> I remember GM using power steering system to operate the brake booster,
> sometime around the late 70's? The engines were not producing enough vacuum
> by then to make the power brakes work properly.
They used the Hydraboost on the diesels of the era. Late 70s to about '85. I
have
one such setup in my '81 Cutlass that was originally a diesel...
--
joe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a Chevy truck which I have registered in NYS as alternative fuel
(Runs on Grease oil)on registration this increased the cost to register.
but, no other problems
Peace,
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "mike young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 7:44 AM
Subject: Re: Plug in Hybrid retro fits for Prius, Escape wanted for NY
state - now: NYS EVs
> I have registered a few solectrias and it is no problem they register just
> like anything else with the spot on the title for fuel type marked as
> electric and the title usually shows the car as a chevy metro but
sometimes
> shows it as a solectria which throws a slight curve ball at them at motor
> vehicles office. mike young
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "DM3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 10:43 PM
> Subject: was: Plug in Hybrid retro fits for Prius, Escape wanted for NY
> state - now: NYS EVs
>
>
> > Regarding EVs in NYS, is there anyone on this list that has one or more
> > EVs licensed in the state of NY?
> > I would just like to know if/how NYS caters to homebuilt EVs.
> > How elaborate are the two year inspections?
> > Are there any discounts for plates or renewals?
> > How are conversions like Solectria or JET handled?
> > Any info is appreciated.
> > Thanks,
> > Jimmy
> >
> >> > From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>
> >> New York State Aims to Convert its Hybrid Fleet to Plug-Ins
> >> A new $10 million effort in New York State is geared toward
> >> converting the state's hybrid fleet-consisting mostly of
> >> Toyota Priuses and Ford Hybrid Escapes-into plug-in
> >> hybrids.
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey John
I believe as someone else posted that you'd be looking at a 13" motor. Twin
9's might actually do the trick also as you'd have that series and parallel
shift for those loads and or hills. At 150 lbs each they'd have the same mass
as a 13" but would have dual comms to share the current. Just some thoughts
for you.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
"John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ok, since I'm sans EV right now, and I'm going to soon have a nice
new (empty) shop building with nice new tools, I'm seriously thinking
of doing a conversion.
I'm interested in a pickup truck - and it needs to still have a
useful payload capacity after conversion!
I'm wondering if something like a Ford F-250 might work. Payload is
around 3700 lbs, and GVWR is 8800 lbs (that includes payload doesn't it?)
So, say you used a pack of 40 T105's. That's 240V and about 2400
lbs. Hopefully most/all of them would fit under the bed and under the hood.
Use a Z2KHV. Assume the truck still has a 5 or 6 speed manual transmission.
What motor would be appropriate so it's not a complete slug? Is that
even possible?
It would need to be able to cruise and maintain 60mph over rolling hills.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
---------------------------------
Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Man I need help with the math here.
3700 lbs, 5.0 kwh are my numbers.
R[miles] = 250 B [kWh] / (W[lbs]^.6)
R = 250 *5/(3700^.6)
R = 1250/138.33
R = 9.03 miles of range
Did I do it right?
But my truck goes 20 miles. So what's up?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> What you need for on-the-spot range estimation is the
> rutman range formula. In short, the range R (in km)
> is given as a function of battery capacity B(of any type, in kWh,
> best at the 20C level) and total vehicle weight W (in kg) by:
>
> R = 250 B / (W^0.6)
>
> So for instance for a 1000kg rig you will get 4km for every kWh of
stored
> battery energy.
> For you american types who dont dig the metric system and all its
attendant
> elegance, there is a lucky cancellation (good thing nobody is using
foot-pounds
> or league-bars x ft^2 for stored energy) that makes the formula look
exactly
> the same in cowboy units:
>
> R[miles] = 250 B [kWh] / (W[lbs]^.6)
>
> so your range in miles for 10kWh of battery in a 2200lb car (thats
total weight,
> including the batteries) would be a cool 25 miles or so.
>
> This formula does the right derating of range per stored kWh of
battery energy
> due to extra weight, its not a simple R= k B/W relation (as used by
sandorsky
> or the massimo rule-of-thumb) but
> rather a 0.6 power of weight that comes in. Why ?
> I dont know, thats just how it seems to go according to the data from
> several hundred vehicles listed at the austinev.org site.
> The formula is good for mopeds, bikes, cars trucks etc.
> Check out the exciting full-color graphs at the yahoogroups ev
> forum pictures or files link.
>
>
> Hello Ryan,
>
> The range should be longer if the vehicle is lighter. Just like any EV
> battery to weight ratio.
>
> ...snip...
>
> From: "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 10:20 PM
> Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
>
> > Roland,
> > Interesting. So if it's "5 to 10 miles for a 5 to 10 ton vehicle",
what
> > happens if the vehicle is only 2 tons? Longer ranges?
> > I can't afford them anyway; I'm just blue-skying.
>
>
> Jeremy Rutman
> Technion Physics Dep't.
> Haifa 32000 Israel
> phone 972 4 8293669
> fax 972 4 8295755
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8/18/06, Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Man I need help with the math here.
3700 lbs, 5.0 kwh are my numbers.
R[miles] = 250 B [kWh] / (W[lbs]^.6)
R = 250 *5/(3700^.6)
R = 1250/138.33
R = 9.03 miles of range
Did I do it right?
But my truck goes 20 miles. So what's up?
5kWh is wrong, you must have more than that. Rated AH * string
voltage, * number of strings.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm sure you have the right controller & idea. The motor might be a big
Kostov or other big iron. I'm not sure a 9"ADC would do it. I know a 156k
Minitruck with floodeds would do it with a 9". . That's 26 batteries. It'd
have to be a long bed. Like a 1 ton Toyota. Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 3:01 PM
Subject: What does it take to convert a truck?
> Ok, since I'm sans EV right now, and I'm going to soon have a nice
> new (empty) shop building with nice new tools, I'm seriously thinking
> of doing a conversion.
> I'm interested in a pickup truck - and it needs to still have a
> useful payload capacity after conversion!
> I'm wondering if something like a Ford F-250 might work. Payload is
> around 3700 lbs, and GVWR is 8800 lbs (that includes payload doesn't it?)
> So, say you used a pack of 40 T105's. That's 240V and about 2400
> lbs. Hopefully most/all of them would fit under the bed and under the
hood.
> Use a Z2KHV. Assume the truck still has a 5 or 6 speed manual
transmission.
> What motor would be appropriate so it's not a complete slug? Is that
> even possible?
> It would need to be able to cruise and maintain 60mph over rolling hills.
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, my Emeter shows 5.07 kwhr's, every time I drive it, just as the
truck stops moving due to a dead nimh pack. I've checked the Emeter
against my Fluke DVM's and both my clamp on amp meters. All matched.
Mike
--- Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 8/18/06, Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Man I need help with the math here.
> >
> > 3700 lbs, 5.0 kwh are my numbers.
> >
> > R[miles] = 250 B [kWh] / (W[lbs]^.6)
> >
> > R = 250 *5/(3700^.6)
> > R = 1250/138.33
> > R = 9.03 miles of range
> >
> > Did I do it right?
> >
> > But my truck goes 20 miles. So what's up?
>
> 5kWh is wrong, you must have more than that. Rated AH * string
> voltage, * number of strings.
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8/18/06, Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Well, my Emeter shows 5.07 kwhr's, every time I drive it, just as the
truck stops moving due to a dead nimh pack. I've checked the Emeter
against my Fluke DVM's and both my clamp on amp meters. All matched.
Well, the formula is for lead, isn't it?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mike,
The 5kw means you have either 50 Ah battery at 100 volts or 50 volt
batteries at 100 Ah. The range looks like its half of your actual range.
This formula also gave me half of my range of 36.7 miles which should be 70
to 80 miles at 10% SOC using 46.8kw at a weight of 6860 lbs.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: EV digest 5766
> Man I need help with the math here.
>
> 3700 lbs, 5.0 kwh are my numbers.
>
> R[miles] = 250 B [kWh] / (W[lbs]^.6)
>
> R = 250 *5/(3700^.6)
> R = 1250/138.33
> R = 9.03 miles of range
>
> Did I do it right?
>
> But my truck goes 20 miles. So what's up?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > What you need for on-the-spot range estimation is the
> > rutman range formula. In short, the range R (in km)
> > is given as a function of battery capacity B(of any type, in kWh,
> > best at the 20C level) and total vehicle weight W (in kg) by:
> >
> > R = 250 B / (W^0.6)
> >
> > So for instance for a 1000kg rig you will get 4km for every kWh of
> stored
> > battery energy.
> > For you american types who dont dig the metric system and all its
> attendant
> > elegance, there is a lucky cancellation (good thing nobody is using
> foot-pounds
> > or league-bars x ft^2 for stored energy) that makes the formula look
> exactly
> > the same in cowboy units:
> >
> > R[miles] = 250 B [kWh] / (W[lbs]^.6)
> >
> > so your range in miles for 10kWh of battery in a 2200lb car (thats
> total weight,
> > including the batteries) would be a cool 25 miles or so.
> >
> > This formula does the right derating of range per stored kWh of
> battery energy
> > due to extra weight, its not a simple R= k B/W relation (as used by
> sandorsky
> > or the massimo rule-of-thumb) but
> > rather a 0.6 power of weight that comes in. Why ?
> > I dont know, thats just how it seems to go according to the data from
> > several hundred vehicles listed at the austinev.org site.
> > The formula is good for mopeds, bikes, cars trucks etc.
> > Check out the exciting full-color graphs at the yahoogroups ev
> > forum pictures or files link.
> >
> >
> > Hello Ryan,
> >
> > The range should be longer if the vehicle is lighter. Just like any EV
> > battery to weight ratio.
> >
> > ...snip...
> >
> > From: "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 10:20 PM
> > Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
> >
> > > Roland,
> > > Interesting. So if it's "5 to 10 miles for a 5 to 10 ton vehicle",
> what
> > > happens if the vehicle is only 2 tons? Longer ranges?
> > > I can't afford them anyway; I'm just blue-skying.
> >
> >
> > Jeremy Rutman
> > Technion Physics Dep't.
> > Haifa 32000 Israel
> > phone 972 4 8293669
> > fax 972 4 8295755
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
The 588 Wh/mile vs 600Wh/mile difference is coming
from a rounding error - do the math with 3 significant digits
and you'll get 584Wh/mile for both cases.
As for doing better - its definitely possible.
Check out the data at
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev/photos/view/b2ca?b=4&m=f&o=0 or
http://physics.technion.ac.il/~rutman/range.htm
and you'll see 4 cars heavier than 1 metric ton (2200lbs)
claiming better than 10km/kWh (equiv. to 160Wh/mile) !!!
chalk it up to any or all of :
a. bad data
b. regen braking
c. efficient controller, motor, drivetrain
d. aero styling
e. low driving speeds, flat terrain
>R[miles] = 250 B [kWh] / (W[lbs]^.6)
>250 * 14.4 / 4050^.6 = 24 miles what I used to get
>250 * 10 / 4050^.6 = 17 miles what I get now.
>24 50ah Excide Orbitals. for eq1 14400/24 = 600 wh/mile *.8 would be assuming
>480WH/mile and 80% DOD
>24 50ah Excide Orbitals. for eq2 10000/17 = 588 wh/mile *.8 would be assuming
>470WH/mile and 80% DODbut this is the same vehicle. So same effiency
assumption,
>I am just getting less out of the pack(or less into it)
>This is dissapointing. I think I, I think we can do better.
Jeremy Rutman
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I've been noticing how much play the Dell-Sony battery fiasco is getting in the
press and today's WSJ has finally made me suspicious .There was a third front
page mention, in as many days, about the Dell-Sony lithium battery problems.
Then their was their lead story in the Technology & Health section (why is it
seemingly impossible to find tech writers that understand technology?) is
titled "Recall Shows Battery Limits" ends with this, "Fuel cells generate
electricity -- instead of storing it -- by combining hydrogen with oxygen from
the air and they don't contain the metals or chemicals that batteries do. Fuel
cells still are a long way from commercial use." Then there's the (also front
page) story about the failing electrical grid, Today, one day after a federal
judge says the president is breaking the law. OT Politics of the news aside
(PLEASE), it just doesn't seem like a slow news day to me.
All this as EV's are experiencing a Renaissance of sorts thanks to Tesla and
the upcoming review of CARB's ZEV mandate, where they will have to answer for
the death of all of the major automakers EV programs with nothing to show for
it except a few hundred million dollars wasted on hydrogen fueling stations
built with, let's all count together now, ONE fuel cell vehicle in private
hands.
Also, anyone notice how the price of crude is now falling even with Prudhoe
Bay offline? Hmmm ...
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Plut wrote:
SOC = State Of Charge
PMSM = ?
IGBT = Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor
DOD = Depth Of Discharge
UQM = ?
BLDC = BrushLess DC [Motor]
IIRC = If I Remember Correctly
OK, everybody:
I've been to www.evparts.com and seen their FAQ list, but STILL can't
find this stuff. What do these terms stand for:
SOC=State of Charge?
PMSM=Permanent Magnet Series Motor?
IGBT=
DOD=
UQM=
BLDC=
IIRC=
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--- Begin Message ---
UQM already mentioned: Unique Mobility stock ticker.
Then there's Jim Husted's favorite: LMAO
I think it means "laughing my ass off".
-MT
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
> Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 8:55 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: IGBTs and DC controllers
>
>
> Ryan Plut wrote:
>
> SOC = State Of Charge
> PMSM = ?
> IGBT = Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor
> DOD = Depth Of Discharge
> UQM = ?
> BLDC = BrushLess DC [Motor]
> IIRC = If I Remember Correctly
> > OK, everybody:
> > I've been to www.evparts.com and seen their FAQ list, but STILL can't
> > find this stuff. What do these terms stand for:
> > SOC=State of Charge?
> > PMSM=Permanent Magnet Series Motor?
> > IGBT=
> > DOD=
> > UQM=
> > BLDC=
> > IIRC=
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Also what validates these numbers is that at a measured efficiency of
250wh/mile, 5kwh divided by 250kwh/mile = 20 miles.
Took a trip all over down town last night and got 264 wh/mile. The
first few miles were 220wh/mile until I hit serious stop and go traffic.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 8/18/06, Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Man I need help with the math here.
> >
> > 3700 lbs, 5.0 kwh are my numbers.
> >
> > R[miles] = 250 B [kWh] / (W[lbs]^.6)
> >
> > R = 250 *5/(3700^.6)
> > R = 1250/138.33
> > R = 9.03 miles of range
> >
> > Did I do it right?
> >
> > But my truck goes 20 miles. So what's up?
>
> 5kWh is wrong, you must have more than that. Rated AH * string
> voltage, * number of strings.
>
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Has anyone any experience using the Solectria BC3kW Charger?
I can only find them available from ElectroAutomotive.
Who does the repair on these chargers if they should have a
problem?
Is the BC3kW charge an isolated charger (isolated from the AC line
via a transformer)?
...
Years ago, when I poured $$$$$ into my EV to prove FAST charging
was do-able, I chose to include a Solectria BS-1600 1.2 kW charger
in the six charger array I had installed.
That older model Solectria charger did not like being in a parallel
charger configuration as it would continuously reset itself.
Running on its own, it worked fine, but when other chargers were on
as well, the line noise must have confused its circuitry. I never
got full power out of it when other chargers were on.
It was an expensive charger to purchase, and not being able to use
it to its full potential was disappointing to say the least. When
it came time to repair the BC1600, I found shortly after warranty
Solectria had ended their support of the charger. So a basically
the newly purchased charger had no support.
I would like to know more about the BC3kW charger so if purchased,
the buyer would not run into the problems I had.
...
The description of BC3kW charger on the ElectroAutomotive page
states some qualities I am interested in:
-temperature compensation (that way I would not have to keep
adjusting the pack finishing voltage when the weather changes).
-dual input voltage, runs off 220 VAC input at the rated output
current, or off 110 VAC at a reduced output current (this is
similar to the PFC chargers which makes one charger more
versatile).
- .97 pfc (this means the charger most likely will run without
tripping an evi ics-200x AVCON charging head when using an AVCON
adaptor).
The BC3kW charger's cost ($3000) is much more than a PFC-30, and
only half the output power since it is a 3kW charger. It would take
two BC3kW's to get the full 6kw output of one PFC-30.
But if the BC3kW is an isolated charger, then the cost might be
justified if a parallel AVCON charging configuration is the goal
(using more than one AVCON charging head to recharge an EV's pack).
[Which sounds like something Bruce would want do ...
More Power Scotty !!! ]
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
On 8/18/06, Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Also what validates these numbers is that at a measured efficiency of
250wh/mile, 5kwh divided by 250kwh/mile = 20 miles.
Took a trip all over down town last night and got 264 wh/mile. The
first few miles were 220wh/mile until I hit serious stop and go traffic.
Fair enough. But the formula is asking for the *rated* capacity, of
probably a lead-acid pack, and giving you an answer (which is probably
quite reasonable) based on that.
You are feeding it a *measured* capacity under a driving load, with
an advanced battery.
For what it's worth it gives a reasonably accurate answer for my van:
16.2kWh, 1400kG = 52.5 miles. That has flooded Nicads.
The formula is after all based on an average - if your vehicle is
outside the average there is less chance of it being accurate.
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Like Mike, I have registered a Solectria Force in NY state. No real
problems - the title shows it as a Geo, but they accepted my saying it
was electric while at the registry. When I went for my inspection
(safety sticker only; not emissions (so lower cost :-)) the computer
gave the guy at the gas station a hard time - ie "are you SURE this car
is electric? click here to continue" or whatever. He then went ahead and
did the safety inspection (and unlike Massachusetts, he actually put it
on the lift and made sure the tie rod ends, brakes, etc. were all ok).
At the end he told me that the DMV might be calling (to confirm that the
car was really electric?) since the printout included such a warning,
but they never did. And just a few days later my title arrived in the
mail. This could be coincidence, but I wonder if they held the title
until the inspection confirmed it as being electric?
And yes, I'm totally curious as to how the NYS plug-in project plays
out... I'll join the crowd looking for a job from it ;-)
DM3 wrote:
Regarding EVs in NYS, is there anyone on this list that has one or more
EVs licensed in the state of NY?
I would just like to know if/how NYS caters to homebuilt EVs.
How elaborate are the two year inspections?
Are there any discounts for plates or renewals?
How are conversions like Solectria or JET handled?
Any info is appreciated.
Thanks,
Jimmy
From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
New York State Aims to Convert its Hybrid Fleet to Plug-Ins
A new $10 million effort in New York State is geared toward
converting the state's hybrid fleet—consisting mostly of
Toyota Priuses and Ford Hybrid Escapes—into plug-in
hybrids.
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1997 Solectria Force
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
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--- Begin Message ---
UQM - Unique Mobility - a company who makes perm mag brushless DC motors.
Do you mind sending your list of acronyms and definitions to the admin of
the EV FAQ? That way we can improve this great information.
thanks
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: August 18, 2006 8:55 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: IGBTs and DC controllers
Ryan Plut wrote:
SOC = State Of Charge
PMSM = ?
IGBT = Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor DOD = Depth Of Discharge UQM = ?
BLDC = BrushLess DC [Motor]
IIRC = If I Remember Correctly
> OK, everybody:
> I've been to www.evparts.com and seen their FAQ list, but STILL can't
> find this stuff. What do these terms stand for:
> SOC=State of Charge?
> PMSM=Permanent Magnet Series Motor?
> IGBT=
> DOD=
> UQM=
> BLDC=
> IIRC=
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
1) what is your pack voltage
2) what is the stated amp hour capacity of your batteries
3) what is the rating for the amp-hour capacity
Also, I know for PbA it is bad to bring the pack to 100% DOD, is this the
case for NiMH or is it OK to drain them?
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: August 18, 2006 7:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Efficency formula (was Re: EV digest 5766)
Well, my Emeter shows 5.07 kwhr's, every time I drive it, just as the truck
stops moving due to a dead nimh pack. I've checked the Emeter against my
Fluke DVM's and both my clamp on amp meters. All matched.
Mike
--- Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 8/18/06, Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Man I need help with the math here.
> >
> > 3700 lbs, 5.0 kwh are my numbers.
> >
> > R[miles] = 250 B [kWh] / (W[lbs]^.6)
> >
> > R = 250 *5/(3700^.6)
> > R = 1250/138.33
> > R = 9.03 miles of range
> >
> > Did I do it right?
> >
> > But my truck goes 20 miles. So what's up?
>
> 5kWh is wrong, you must have more than that. Rated AH * string
> voltage, * number of strings.
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
