EV Digest 5778
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) LMP Battery...
by "Joe Plumer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Trains Trucks an' Automobiles.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Well that didn't work
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Low Voltage DC EVs (was: RE: Wilderness Electric Vehicle warning)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: A bit cleaner air on the lake today
by "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: An Electric GAZ!
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: DOD v pack life
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: A bit cleaner air on the lake today
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: A123 systems pack
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: LMP Battery...
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: I need a dc-dc converter
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Well that didn't work
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: Opinions on Toyota Echo for conversion?
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Making it more efficient
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV digest 5777
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: What does it take to convert a truck?
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Low Voltage DC EVs (was: RE: Wilderness Electric Vehicle
warning)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Steorn Challenge
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) I don't need a dc-dc converter
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Low Voltage DC EVs (was: RE: Wilderness Electric Vehicle warning)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Low Voltage DC EVs (was: RE: Wilderness Electric Vehicle warning)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I just ran across a battery from Avestor.
http://www.avestor.com/se48s80.ch2
It's an LMP and has potential if it weren't for the discharge rate (and
likely price).
Any other thoughts on this type of battery? Is anyone using something like
this?
_________________________________________________________________
Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: Low Voltage DC EVs (was: RE: Wilderness Electric Vehicle
warning)
> I am forced to disagree with that claim, ie I think a minimum
> acceleration is necessary to smoothly participate in traffic. I haven't
> owned a V8 in years, My 200hp V6 is more than adequate on the grand am
> AND the 2.4 liter is more than adequate on the Mitsubishi PU, But they
> weight a LOT less than my EV. The torque output of the 2Liter would NOT
> be sufficient to propel the truck if it weighted as much as my
> conversion. remember that 1000lbs of lead has the energy equivalent of
> about 3/4 a gallon of gas.
>
>
> While I agree a lot of it is cultural, educating everyone to my right to
> my slower viewpoint every time I pull away from a stoplight is hazardous
> in Fresno.
>
> PS the Fresno joke is red means "stop", green means "go" and yellow
> means "go real fast"
> Hi EVerybody;
And in New Haven or Hartford stop lights are treated as suggestions! MAYBE
the guy with the green is paying attention?? You don't just sail through,in
something less than a Dump Truck, or bus. See that great scene on You Tube,
of the little pickup running the stoplight. He gets T boned by a flatbed 18
wheeler doing 70-80mph. He won't do THAT again! Like getting hit by a
train.You can get lost for HOURS in You Tube!The playing chicken with the
Dutch?, French?Train, He almost didn't make it. But the Dutch, or French?
Electric lokie had the GREATEST horn! A shreaking ,two toner, that the
driver(engineer)was trying to get the f**king yahoo OFF the trak. I know
how he felt!! Been there done that! Train swept by, electric, of course at a
dazzling speed, first few cars were carrying CARS,what a novel concept! ,
as it was a "Goods" train, as they call them Over There.But I loved thast
horn! JC Whitney? Are ya listening!?Check it out! I want one!
No matter HOW fast yur Electric is? Having "Electric Car " inscribed on
the tailgate is like throwing down the gauntlet! Or as Jack Gretta used to
say it means " Pass Me!" freely translated.They ALL used to zoom by me
,EVery mourning till we got up to New Haven's Famous Q bridge, then it is
stop an go, and ya smile at the guy in the SUV or Vette that blew by ya 10
minutes ago. EV's can do stop an' go with the best of them!!Only time I use
first gear. Keeps the amps down.
As for the origional subject? Hell, a big truck can be SLOW, dignity
intact. EVen as a Diseasel, so I don'tthink a truk HAS to have Zombie like
performance. You plan ahead, as David Roden sez, and aim and ooze onto the
pike. SIGNAL, and they will let ya in! But Give 'er hell early on, IF you
arent behind a run to the end of the ramp and STOP idiots, if they are
afraid of the traffic.As the Godzilla Movie folks used to say " Size
Matters"Ya get more road respect with a BIG one!Godzilla was a great comedy
movie! Like calling in an air strike on Madison Square Garden in NYC. Yeah!
Right, Penn Station is below that! Think Train Delays BIG time1 Nobody
thought of that in the movie, and the cute "little"Rapters could run through
the train tunnels to NJ and Long Island, the ones that didn't get trained!
Acela woulda pushed them out of the way! Put your mind in neutral and rent
it! Zilla hiding in NY harbor? Right! He wouldn'ta got his knees wet! Tain't
that deep! Like me hiding in a wading pool! great site gags!Funny movie!
My two lights worth;
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Note for the record: Home Depot does not sell tools, they sell problems.
The POS 4/40 thread taps that HD sells basically break off in the holes.
Which of course renders the hole worthless. Same with their garbage
quality bolts that twist off in holes.
On the other hand, sears Craftsman drills will drill through a
"hardened" (ie butter) tap from Home Depot. Live and learn.
While trying to center the mounting plate I made the mistake of drilling
out the holes that were used for the old sensor on the motor. I now
can't use them with a 4/40 bolt anymore. Anyone have any ideas on how to
make them work again without going to 6/32 size?
Anyway I mounted the plate, then tried it out. Big grinding, turns out
my wonderful motor has a bearing end that is sticking out into the
encoder space. So when you mount the encoder with the ears, it bends and
makes a mess. Pulled it, put washers under bolt, put it back together.
Truck acts as if there is no sensor.
AAARRRGGGH!!!!!!
Broke the sender taking it off the truck. I don't know if it was
defective, wired wrong or what. But it's *REALLY* annoying to blow yet
another 8 hours on this damn truck.
Any ideas? Anyone in MD have a whole motor with an encoder on the end;
I'm ready to rip this whole motor out.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
PS the Fresno joke is red means "stop", green means "go" and yellow
means "go real fast"
Uh, I thought that came from Starman. LR........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wanna drool? See http://www.feys.org/ and click on "Our System". It's a
hybrid boat. Doubt it could be run as a BEV tho.
Ryan G. Plut
"Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it"
- (G. Bernard Shaw)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: A bit cleaner air on the lake today
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Any Electric is welcome here. Good luck. Seems you have found your
waterline length speed. Keep it there or below and you'll have long run
times. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 11:18 PM
Subject: A bit cleaner air on the lake today
Well, finally got that EV grin! (sorta)
It's a 12 foot wooden pram I just finished building - design was
modified for the intent of electric drive. DF planking, Maple frame,
epoxy coated, no fiberglass. It's just under 140 lbs empty, yet is rated
for 4 adults + gear (900 lbs) - when done right, wood is powerfully
strong stuff! It's powered by a 40lb trolling motor with an over-sized
prop. Battery is a 110AH Exide flooded deep cycle, 68lbs. Cruises along
nicely at 5-6 knots with two aboard using around 30 amps. Had it on full
power for 1 hour and 20 odd minutes so far, battery should do twice that
easy ;)
LOL - took a couple days of measuring, looking up formulas, and
researching online, so I darn well better. The motor + prop was picked to
hopefully match this hull, and it looks like I got lucky this time.
I was inspired originally by some other lake regulars (Mayfield Lake) that
had been trying to run small production fiberglass and metal
rowboats/jonboats/dinghies with just a large trolling motor. This lake
sees chop over 6" on a regular basis due to it's topography (basically a
flooded canyon). They had little success, with the boats going 2 knots
top, and heavy amperage draws (warm wires). This didn't seem right to me,
since in the water electric rules the efficiency roost at low speeds
according to the math - a 300 to 400 Watt (1/2HP) electric drive typically
generates around 40 ft/lbs of thrust, a typical 5HP ICE outboard generates
around 150ft/lbs of thrust.
Having a hull designed to go a particular speed with minimum thrust is
definitely the way to go, given that this family of vehicles is *very*
weight sensitive. The down side is that you go 5-6 knots, or plane. It's a
combination hull, and the transition from displacement (in the water) to
planing (on top of the water) is pretty abrupt. Going from 6 knots to 7
knots should take around double the power, and that curve gets much worse
until you hit plane. The dual motor setup will hopefully run at 7.5 knots,
since that is just under the speed limit in the busier boating lanes on
this lake. But after that (about 4HP), a tiny increase in power gets you
gobs of extra speed.
The *prevailing* wisdom is that it's impractical to make an
electric-driven true planing hull. But if you could make it work, the
speed and efficiency available to you would be worthy of much drooling...
I wish the fellow trying to electrify a jet ski the best of luck! Those
darn things are the thorn in every fisherman's side, hear 'em over 1/2
mile away on the lake :-(
Shut them all up and my blood pressure will drop a couple of PSI,
permanently.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know well these cars - grew up with their presence.
They have real frame, not unibody, and the body
panels will outlast anything out there - they are
nearly 1mm thick. Heavy car, and with 18kW motor must
be a slug. There are low voltage Siemens systems
available (I can supply). This system is similar
to one in CitySTROMer:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/160.html
Victor
Nick Austin wrote:
On Fri, Aug 11, 2006 at 08:51:12PM -0500, Mike Chancey wrote:
Hi folks,
One of the latest entries is a 1958 GAZ from Estonia.
<..snip..>
AC drive in a 1958 Soviet mobile?
Did you notice that the system voltage on this car is only 120V?
I though one of the big rubs for the Siemens AC systems was there
high voltage requirement?
Well the pictures are now in and I am impressed.
What a great looking conversion! It must have cost a fortune!
I wonder how much it is to find and restore a car like that?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another point to remember is that pack life is usually defined as ended when
the pack can only deliver 80% of it's starting capacity. If that is still
more than what you need, you can just keep using the pack until it no longer
gets you where you need to go. If you have a short commute, you could keep
using a pack long after it would be considered dead for most others ie., if
a pack that only has 30% of it's original capacity still gets you to and
from work, (such as a pack with an original range of 60 miles will now only
go 20 miles, but you only need to go 12 miles), your battery cost per mile
will be a lot less than the person that has to drive 40 miles and replace
the pack more frequently.
Dave
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: DOD v pack life
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 15:00:25 -0700
jmygann wrote:
> And how is that measured? Voltage? I have a 48 volt, 220 ahr pack...
Think of it as the total miles you can drive over the life of the pack.
The life of a 6v 220ah lead-acid golf cart battery is about:
2000 cycles at 20% DOD
1200 cycles at 50% DOD
600 cycles at 80% DOD
200 cycles at 100% DOD
The shallower the discharge, the more charge/discharge cycles you get;
but the fewer miles you can drive per charge. The optimum point (most
total miles on the pack) occurs where the #cycles x %DOD is the largest.
Let's say each 10% DOD takes your EV 3 miles (i.e. your range is 30
miles to 100% DOD). A 6v 220ah golf cart battery actually delivers 75a
for 105 minutes = 131ah. For a 48v 131ah pack, that's 48v x 131ah / 30
miles = 209 watthours/mile; about right for a small light EV. Then the
distance you can drive for each of the above depths of discharge is:
20% DOD = 6 miles
50% DOD = 15 miles
80% DOD = 24 miles
100% DOD = 30 miles
So, your total mileage for the pack is
2000 cycles x 6 miles/cycle = 12,000 miles at 20% DOD
1200 cycles x 15 miles/cycle = 18,000 miles at 50% DOD
600 cycles x 24 miles/cycle = 14,400 miles at 80% DOD
200 cycles x 50 miles/cycle = 10,000 miles at 100% DOD
Your lowest battery cost per mile is thus to discharge them to about 50%
DOD before recharging.
Sorry for all the numbers. Hope no one's eyes glazed over!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Plut wrote:
Wanna drool? See http://www.feys.org/ and click on "Our System". It's
a hybrid boat. Doubt it could be run as a BEV tho.
Ryan G. Plut
"Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it"
- (G. Bernard Shaw)
Little confused - that's a typical electric *drive* system, which is
pretty standard fair for large ships.
You could run a big diesel genset in the bed of an electric drive pickup
(sans batteries), it would be about the same thing. But I doubt many
would call that an EV...
I can simply toss a small Honda generator (only need 1kW max) in the
battery box and save myself alot of weight. But then I wouldn't be
cruising along in total, relaxing quiet :-(
Sorry, no drool here.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> per kwh, Kokam is less expensive, lighter, smaller !
>
> if rule book is safety then i suppose A123 and other phosphate based
lithium
> cells are the way to go.
>
> just a suggestion: 46S12P is 147V28Ah and so not enough for a car, range
> will be just the corner...
>
I had exactly the same thought - ~$1500/kwh for a pack that will get
you 12-20miles? A123s peak close to 100C, so should be feeding Zillas,
not a Cursit! Kokams peak from 2C to 10C, depending on the model and
cost less than half as much.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My company is using these for Telco back-up applications. We give a commercial
rate of $2300 ea for the SE 48S80 in quantity.
The problem is its low discharge rates as you mentioned. I talked briefly with
an engineer at Avestor and she said they are
working on an "automotive application" battery. However she wouldn't
elaborate, at all.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Joe Plumer
> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 4:07 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: LMP Battery...
>
>
> I just ran across a battery from Avestor.
> http://www.avestor.com/se48s80.ch2
> It's an LMP and has potential if it weren't for the discharge rate (and
> likely price).
>
> Any other thoughts on this type of battery? Is anyone using something like
> this?
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks victor, I saw the 600W unit and while it is a much better fit on
the 14V end, it won't work with my pack voltage. :-( I think I had
mentioned that requierment much earlier in this thread.
I DO understand the difference between "built for EV Automotive use" and
"makeing something work"
I see the Value Brusa has in that area but just can't afford it or sell
it. I want to develop a list of worthy products before I open an EV shop
or store here in Fresno.
I am going with about 750W unit ("1000W max continuous") for about $240.
Though not waterproof or actually intended for road use, we will see how
long it lasts.
I like trying some of these lower cost options to see which ones
actually have merit. I have been using a MCP350 water pump to cool the
zilla. This is a continous duty magnetically driven water pump used for
colling PC's. Though known as the swiftech mcp350, It originally was
built by delphi(still has delphi logo and packaging when you get it) to
cool electronics in cars. But it appears to be borderline, Without the
dc-dc when the 12V drops, it can't keep the zilla cool. Its bigger
brother the 650 arrives monday.
I tried an RV sink water pump, the smallest one, but the continous duty
for the EV resulted in a short , noisy life. These CPU water pumps are
quiet and because they have no shaft seals, they use very little power
for their output. I will let the list know how they perform. They
currently run $39.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As far as getting the bolt hole usable @ 4/40 I would suggest a thread repair
product called a "helicoil". These are available in a kit that has the correct
oversize drill, special tap and thread inserts that looks like a spring, you
basically just drill the hole oversize, tap it with the special helicoil tap
then install the thread insert with the provided tool. Should be available
from most better nut and bolt or machine tool suppliers. Good luck, David
Chapman.
Quoting Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Note for the record: Home Depot does not sell tools, they sell problems.
>
> The POS 4/40 thread taps that HD sells basically break off in the holes.
> Which of course renders the hole worthless. Same with their garbage
> quality bolts that twist off in holes.
>
> On the other hand, sears Craftsman drills will drill through a
> "hardened" (ie butter) tap from Home Depot. Live and learn.
>
> While trying to center the mounting plate I made the mistake of drilling
> out the holes that were used for the old sensor on the motor. I now
> can't use them with a 4/40 bolt anymore. Anyone have any ideas on how to
> make them work again without going to 6/32 size?
>
> Anyway I mounted the plate, then tried it out. Big grinding, turns out
> my wonderful motor has a bearing end that is sticking out into the
> encoder space. So when you mount the encoder with the ears, it bends and
> makes a mess. Pulled it, put washers under bolt, put it back together.
> Truck acts as if there is no sensor.
>
> AAARRRGGGH!!!!!!
>
> Broke the sender taking it off the truck. I don't know if it was
> defective, wired wrong or what. But it's *REALLY* annoying to blow yet
> another 8 hours on this damn truck.
>
> Any ideas? Anyone in MD have a whole motor with an encoder on the end;
> I'm ready to rip this whole motor out.
>
> Chris
>
-------------------------------------------------
FastQ Communications
Providing Innovative Internet Solutions Since 1993
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
he did indeed:
http://www.canev.com/Conversions/Echo/Echo.html
Don Cameron wrote:
I think Randy at canev.com converted an echo.
Dmitri Hurik wrote:
Your opinion: is the Toyota Echo a good candidate for conversion?
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1997 Solectria Force
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So thats 5760 watts ..
or
120 amps on 48 volts to hold 40 mph .. I'll try that on my ev
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Awesome story!
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ricky Suiter <ev@> wrote:
> >
> > Some observations on picking up efficiency with my Saturn SC
conversion.
> >
> > It's a 144 volt pack of Trojan 30XHS batteries, not that much
> energy on board
> > Zilla 1K controller (limited to 500 pack murdering battery
amps)
> > 9" ADC motor
> > Stock "performance" manual transmission... performance version
has
> higher gear ratios which is more ideal for electric motors
> >
> > When I first got the car converted it has some no name tires on
> it. I don't do a whole lot of highway cruising with it so my
baseline
> is amps at 40mph steady on flat ground int he city. It took about
70
> amps to hold 40mph initially.
> >
> > First modification was to get the old horrible rubber off of it
> and put some decent tires with lower rolling resistance
> characteristics on it, and the old tires were in bad shape too.
Going
> to Goodyear Integrity tires in 185/60R15's dropped 10 amps now
> requiring 60 amps to hold 40mph.
> >
> > Second and third mod's happened at about the same time, I had
it
> alligned for 0 toe in and removed the stock wing from the car. I
> noticed a little more from the wing being gone on the highway, but
> overall these dropped the car down to 50 amps.
> >
> > Fourth and fifth mod occured both pretty recently, but close
> enough together to notice a difference with each. Fourth was
playing
> with the brakes. The flexible brake lines looked to be original.
These
> rubber hoses will tend to expand with age and not let all the brake
> fluid go back in to the resivor, I replaced all of them and at the
> same time got the caliper rebuild kits for the front disk brakes.
This
> consisted basically of new rubber O-rings which help retract the
> piston from the pads. I only drove it some before making
modification
> number 5, but this in itself made another good 5 amp difference.
> >
> > Modification number five happened today, which was installing
> light weight wheels. I found some 15X7" wheels weighing in at only
> 12.6 lbs! And even better they didn't totally break the bank. They
are
> Kosei K1's, tire rack sells them and they are about $150 a piece,
> which included all necessary hardware, and they look really good to
> boot. While at discount tire getting them installed I observed
three
> people crouched around the box the wheels came in writing the
> information down. I chatted with one of the guys and they said the
> shop manager had never felt a wheel so light weight and wanted to
know
> what they were and where I got them because he wanted a set. I
should
> also mention that the 14" version of these wheels weights in at 9.5
> lbs for those of you with smaller wheels and tires. I requested
40psi,
> which didn't happen. As I drove home the amps had actually
increased a
> tad, but upon checking the tire pressure it was less than 30lbs so
I
> pumped them back up and about an
> > hour later left for work. I'm now down to about 40 amps to hold
> 40mph. Acceleration uses way less power. 150 amps accelerates
quicker
> than 200 amps used to! And the car already had alloy wheels, which
> upon lifting them by theirselves it was apparent I had saved a lot
of
> rotational mass (I need to weigh the old wheels to see just how
big of
> a difference I made, but it feels like about half!).
> >
> > So in short over the last year I've taken the car from 70 amps
to
> hold 40mph down to 40 amps to hold the same speed. This is a HUGE
> improvement! At this point my pack is already on it's way out,
however
> the range when I get a new pack (probably in another year) will be
far
> greater than what it was before. This is nearing almost a 50%
> improvement over how it was when the car first moved under it's own
> power as an electric conversion! Ok so granted that 3/8" overall
toe
> out wasn't helping any, but there are things you can to to gain
> efficiency and therefore range.
> >
> > I'm not 100% sure where I can go from here now. I'm thinking
other
> aerodynamic modificaitons are about all I can do. I suppose making
a
> belly pan is about all there if left. Anyone else have any other
ideas?
> >
> > Here are the wheels:
> >
> http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/DisplayWheel.jsp?
wheelMake=Kosei&wheelModel=K1+TS&wheelFinish=Silver+Painted
> >
> > Here's the manufacturers page for the wheels:
> > http://www.koseijp.co.jp/engfl/n_p5_k1.htm
> > Weight performance
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > The only wheels ligher I've ever found are Volk TE37's at abotu
> $300-$400 a piece! And they aren't $300 a piece lighter either.
> >
> > It's a totally different car with those wheels, highly
recommended.
> >
> >
> > Later,
> > Ricky
> > 02 Insight
> > 92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
> > Glendale, AZ USA
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US
(and
> 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The relentless persuit of perfection indeed. The positive feedback made it
worth typing. Most of these ideas I've compiled from this list anyways, but I
think this really shows how significant a lot of little things can add up to.
It's kind of wierd, since putting the wheels on I'm having to kind of
re-learn the car. The places I regularly drive too would usually use a fairly
predictable amount of power, it's less now.
Rick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips"
To: "Ricky Suiter"
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: Making it more efficient
> Awesome story!
>
> Mike
>
> Hi Mike an' All;
Here we have the List at it's Finist!A real "It works for me"and how to
do it . Shared with anybody that wants. Thanks Ricky, to ,for the cool
links! In EV's it is ofter the relentless persuit of perfection, that makes
a converson a winner.
Seeya
Bob
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ricky Suiter wrote:
> >
> > Some observations on picking up efficiency with my Saturn SC conversion.
> >
> > It's a 144 volt pack of Trojan 30XHS batteries, not that much
> energy on board
> > Zilla 1K controller (limited to 500 pack murdering battery amps)
> > 9" ADC motor
> > Stock "performance" manual transmission... performance version has
> higher gear ratios which is more ideal for electric motors
> >
> > When I first got the car converted it has some no name tires on
> it. I don't do a whole lot of highway cruising with it so my baseline
> is amps at 40mph steady on flat ground int he city. It took about 70
> amps to hold 40mph initially.
> >
> > First modification was to get the old horrible rubber off of it
> and put some decent tires with lower rolling resistance
> characteristics on it, and the old tires were in bad shape too. Going
> to Goodyear Integrity tires in 185/60R15's dropped 10 amps now
> requiring 60 amps to hold 40mph.
> >
> > Second and third mod's happened at about the same time, I had it
> alligned for 0 toe in and removed the stock wing from the car. I
> noticed a little more from the wing being gone on the highway, but
> overall these dropped the car down to 50 amps.
> >
> > Fourth and fifth mod occured both pretty recently, but close
> enough together to notice a difference with each. Fourth was playing
> with the brakes. The flexible brake lines looked to be original. These
> rubber hoses will tend to expand with age and not let all the brake
> fluid go back in to the resivor, I replaced all of them and at the
> same time got the caliper rebuild kits for the front disk brakes. This
> consisted basically of new rubber O-rings which help retract the
> piston from the pads. I only drove it some before making modification
> number 5, but this in itself made another good 5 amp difference.
> >
> > Modification number five happened today, which was installing
> light weight wheels. I found some 15X7" wheels weighing in at only
> 12.6 lbs! And even better they didn't totally break the bank. They are
> Kosei K1's, tire rack sells them and they are about $150 a piece,
> which included all necessary hardware, and they look really good to
> boot. While at discount tire getting them installed I observed three
> people crouched around the box the wheels came in writing the
> information down. I chatted with one of the guys and they said the
> shop manager had never felt a wheel so light weight and wanted to know
> what they were and where I got them because he wanted a set. I should
> also mention that the 14" version of these wheels weights in at 9.5
> lbs for those of you with smaller wheels and tires. I requested 40psi,
> which didn't happen. As I drove home the amps had actually increased a
> tad, but upon checking the tire pressure it was less than 30lbs so I
> pumped them back up and about an
> > hour later left for work. I'm now down to about 40 amps to hold
> 40mph. Acceleration uses way less power. 150 amps accelerates quicker
> than 200 amps used to! And the car already had alloy wheels, which
> upon lifting them by theirselves it was apparent I had saved a lot of
> rotational mass (I need to weigh the old wheels to see just how big of
> a difference I made, but it feels like about half!).
> >
> > So in short over the last year I've taken the car from 70 amps to
> hold 40mph down to 40 amps to hold the same speed. This is a HUGE
> improvement! At this point my pack is already on it's way out, however
> the range when I get a new pack (probably in another year) will be far
> greater than what it was before. This is nearing almost a 50%
> improvement over how it was when the car first moved under it's own
> power as an electric conversion! Ok so granted that 3/8" overall toe
> out wasn't helping any, but there are things you can to to gain
> efficiency and therefore range.
> >
> > I'm not 100% sure where I can go from here now. I'm thinking other
> aerodynamic modificaitons are about all I can do. I suppose making a
> belly pan is about all there if left. Anyone else have any other ideas?
> >
> > Here are the wheels:
> >
>
http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/DisplayWheel.jsp?wheelMake=Kosei&wheelModel=K1+TS&wheelFinish=Silver+Painted
> >
> > Here's the manufacturers page for the wheels:
> > http://www.koseijp.co.jp/engfl/n_p5_k1.htm
> > Weight performance
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > The only wheels ligher I've ever found are Volk TE37's at abotu
> $300-$400 a piece! And they aren't $300 a piece lighter either.
> >
> > It's a totally different car with those wheels, highly recommended.
> >
> >
> > Later,
> > Ricky
> > 02 Insight
> > 92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
> > Glendale, AZ USA
> >
---------------------------------
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: What does it take to convert a truck?
I didn't convert the truck because I still needed it to get parts and
such. I figured a 300z for $300 with the engine already pulled was too
good to pass up.
I think Bob M payed $600 for it with blown motor , I was just happy that
sombody had picked a car and wanted me to convert it , I didn't ask the list
if it was a good canadate , I think Bod would have been happer with a rabbit
or escort , he wanted more range , with 26 golf cart batteries in it , it
didn't have near the range my old murecery link did with 20 batteries . , ,
It is quick enough to have gotten a " man you drive
fast, I have seen you zipping out of here" statement in the department
meeting this week. (in front of 100 people) And the person making that
statement didn't know it was an EV. The response from a converted 300zx
is great. I think the truck would have been ho-hum.
Well it is a nice car , all the neat stuff, electric seats, window , the t
top , and it handels the weight very well .When your ev is the only one in
town then its got to be the best . I have though about switching to
orbitals like your set up , for a little more pep, but its been my
experance that its best to leave one close to the way it was done once its
done , up grading can end up being as much work as a conversion and in the
end there's only one instead of 2 EV cars.
Another plus was, I always wanted a z car and can't afford to own and
maintain an ICE version of one. Besides, someone said convert a car you
like! Man does it have great seats, and a T-Top!
This is very true , but I'd bet what you see now as cool is not the same as
what you though was cool when all you where thinking was gas. When I see a
Murcery lynx , my head alway truns , what a cool car , but that's cus I
remember what a good EV it was, drove it 90 miles one time to a ev rally .
with just 20 golf cart bats . If I saw a old Datson now , I might even stop
and look it over , don't think I'd ever do that when I was driving a gas
car.
I am curious why you said it is one of the worst to convert. There are
few rear wheel drive sporty cars left.
I was talking proformance , just proformance , its a nice car to ride in ,
it has kind of grown on me , I'll say this , it uses less power that my
mazda pick up when pulling the lawn trailer. :-) ok that was mean , I'll be
looking forward to you first post on the mitubish pu , when its electirc.
bet it goes " I can't belive how much faster/ further my Mits is compared to
the 300zx ,,,,,
I will admit that before I blew the motor, it accelerated better, I have
not gotten all the bugs worked out. The first week, where I only had the
13 batteries in back, it was really a hot car. So I have a feel for what
500 lbs less weight could do.(But I didn't want to be a hypocrite
either, worrying about 100 or 200 lbs when the driver could stand to
loose 100+.
one more:
You know you are an EV list member when loosing weight is seen as a way
to get more batteries on board.
Range is the issue for me. I need more range about 2 days a week.
When I added more batteries to my Mazda and got a good 70 mile range at
55/60 I started using it for some long range drives and its been nice , I;m
doing more becuse my Ev can go further , .
Nice things about the 300zx
great seats , t top
tranny , rear feel very strong
Looks cool ,
big brakes , power everthing
has that big car feel .
Steve Clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You apear to be confusing power and energy, or rather average energy.
48V @ 1000 amps is roughly 48 hp. Put nother way, that is roughly the
same HP as an old air cooled VW bug.
A VW bug has pretty tepid performance, even when it's only pushing around
2000 lbs.
It doesn't matter if 18kw comes from series wound motors, permanent magnet
motors, or rubber bands, it's still only 18kw.
Unless it weighs less than 1,000 lbs, 18kw isn't enough power to keep up
with trafic on anything other than back streets.
> Rich offered:
>
>> The general idea is 48 volts and less than about 1000 amps
>> is not enough power to keep up with traffic in normal
>> driving.
>
> Sure, if you are talking about pushing a Mack Truck.
>
> Your numbers would argue that it takes 800wh/mile at 60mph!
> I thought 300wh/mile isn't uncommon for most conversions doing freeway
> speed, e.g. 60mph.
> That equates to 18kw, or 375-amps at 48v.
> This is near doable with a properly cooled pair of 48v ETEKs, not that
> anyone but Cloud would want to do it...
> But there's no reason why a scaled up version of an ETEK couldn't be
> produced which delivered 18kw steady at 48v, allowing a single-motor,
> efficient, permag low voltage DC solution.
>
> I don't dispute that the series-wound DC-motor case is apples compared to
> the permanent magnet DC oranges. And your experience is clearly mostly
> with
> series-wound.
>
> But I don't think you can seriously argue that to keep up with traffic the
> average conversion needs to be dishing out 48kw.
>
> -Myles
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Steorn has placed an advertisement in The Economist this week to attract
> the attention of the worldâs leading scientists working in the field of
> experimental physics. From all the scientists who accept Steornâs
> challenge, twelve will be invited to take part in a rigorous testing
> exercise to prove that Steornâs technology creates free energy. The
> results will be published worldwide.
Hmm, so of all the scientists that accept, Steorn gets to choose 12 that
will supposedly "test" their device?
Isn't that a bit like a magician selecting his assistant from the
audience: "Hi Bob, have we ever met before? Why no John, not unless you
count last months family reunion."
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm a little puzzled why the need for a dc-dc converter, why not use a
pack battery to provide the accessory power?
1. Isolation. why is it important to isolate the acc power from the
traction pack? Well, then perhaps just use an accessory battery, and
recharge it when the pack recharges by adding it to the string during
charging.
2. Voltage. a cars 12v accessories actually run on 14.7v from the
alternator, rather than battery power. Is this really a big deal? If
so, add another 2v cell for the acc power.
3. Unequal Pack Draw. The battery used for acc runs down faster and
gets unequal. Is this really a big deal, don't the batteries equalize
upon charging anyway?
Jack
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
48V @ 1000 Amps = 48kW = 65hp
I am a big fan of the Geo Metro (albeit a gas guzzler). It is cheap, has
peppy performance, excellent gas mileage, more than adequate power to keep
up with traffic and accelerates just fine. It has peak power of 55hp (40kW)
and weighs in at just under 2000lbs curb weight (880kg).
Based on the metro, if you want a reasonable commuter car, look for
something that has about 27hp per 1000lbs, or 20kW per 1000lbs. For an EV,
that includes batteries.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: August 20, 2006 11:39 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Low Voltage DC EVs (was: RE: Wilderness Electric Vehicle
warning)
You apear to be confusing power and energy, or rather average energy.
48V @ 1000 amps is roughly 48 hp. Put nother way, that is roughly the same
HP as an old air cooled VW bug.
A VW bug has pretty tepid performance, even when it's only pushing around
2000 lbs.
It doesn't matter if 18kw comes from series wound motors, permanent magnet
motors, or rubber bands, it's still only 18kw.
Unless it weighs less than 1,000 lbs, 18kw isn't enough power to keep up
with trafic on anything other than back streets.
> Rich offered:
>
>> The general idea is 48 volts and less than about 1000 amps is not
>> enough power to keep up with traffic in normal driving.
>
> Sure, if you are talking about pushing a Mack Truck.
>
> Your numbers would argue that it takes 800wh/mile at 60mph!
> I thought 300wh/mile isn't uncommon for most conversions doing freeway
> speed, e.g. 60mph.
> That equates to 18kw, or 375-amps at 48v.
> This is near doable with a properly cooled pair of 48v ETEKs, not that
> anyone but Cloud would want to do it...
> But there's no reason why a scaled up version of an ETEK couldn't be
> produced which delivered 18kw steady at 48v, allowing a single-motor,
> efficient, permag low voltage DC solution.
>
> I don't dispute that the series-wound DC-motor case is apples compared
> to the permanent magnet DC oranges. And your experience is clearly
> mostly with series-wound.
>
> But I don't think you can seriously argue that to keep up with traffic
> the average conversion needs to be dishing out 48kw.
>
> -Myles
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic junk
at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I wish
with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 20 Aug 2006 at 15:19, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> While I agree a lot of it is cultural, educating everyone to my right to
> my slower viewpoint every time I pull away from a stoplight is hazardous
> in Fresno.
With all due respect, I hear this over and over. Everybody seems to know
(or live in) some city where traffic is fiendishly fast. In such a place
you may as well replace your controller with a contactor, or expect to be
"run over." All the other drivers floor their accelerators when the light
turns green, and woe to you if you hold them up!
To put it as gently as possible, I find this less than persuasive. I have
yet to drive in an area where I felt that I had to drive "pedal to the
metal." I drive the way I drive no matter where I am, and that means I
accelerate smoothly, drive the speed limit, and brake gently to a stop when
I have to (I'd rather coast up to a light that turns green just as I get
there).
Yes, I'm sometimes tailgated, but the same drivers will tailgate people who
drive fast, too. And I don't feel very threatened by tailgaters anyway. If
they hit my car, they'll be the ones cited.
You may say that everyone around you is driving as fast as you are - but I
guarantee that you're still passing people. If you slow down you'll find
that suddenly you're surrounded by a contingent of people doing the speed
limit. Surprise! Even in busy cities, I can almost always find a lane with
a cadre of drivers doing the speed I want to drive.
To each his own. I mean no criticism, but I like saving energy, whether
it's electricity or gasoline. Beyond the principle of it, that keeps money
in my pocket, not just from using less energy but also from being able to
use less expensive, simpler vehicles and drive systems.
But others have different priorities. There's no shame in enjoying speed if
you do it safely. Just do it and have fun. You don't need an excuse like
"I'll get run over if I don't." ;-)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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