EV Digest 5781
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Solectria BC3kW Chargers
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Generator Trailer
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Tell me about sag
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: I need a dc-dc converter
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Tell me about sag
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: DOD v pack life
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: battery trailers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Potbox problems
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: connectors for NiMH batteries?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Well that didn't work
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: I don't need a dc-dc converter
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: I need a dc-dc converter
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) NHRA Electric Dragster record holder, CE-V and Dennis "Killowatt" Berube
by DM3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: I need a dc-dc converter
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Low Voltage DC EVs (was: RE: Wilderness Electric Vehicle warning)
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: What does it take to convert a truck?
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: I need a dc-dc converter
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Independent Video Producer coming to NEDRA Nationals
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Low Voltage DC EVs (was: RE: Wilderness Electric Vehicle
warning)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Driving habbits
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: What does it take to convert a truck?
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: A123 systems pack
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Charles Whalen, WKTEC, and filet mignon
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
On 18 Aug 2006 at 9:39, bruce parmenter wrote:
Has anyone any experience using the Solectria BC3kW Charger?
Are these rebadged Brusa chargers, or actually made by Solectria?
They were copies of BRUSA NLG4 ones (licensed at the time production)
when Solectria existed. Now, Since Solectria was sold (rather became)
Azure Dynamics, they no longer make them.
Is the BC3kW charge an isolated charger (isolated from the AC line
via a transformer)?
I can't imagine Solectria or Brusa ever building a charger that WASN'T
isolated. They are very safety conscious.
Yes, granted they were (and always will be) isolated.
BRUSA can replace NLG4 with NLG5 and adapter PCB which makes
newer NLG5 look like NLG4 for the rest of the vehicle for
plug and play connection. That is if Solectria did not
modify original BRUSA design. I know that Force vehicles
can use NLG5 and such adapter - been done before.
NLG4 are no longer in production since a while ago,
(many years) and as such are not supported.
Victor
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Brian and All,
>
>brian baumel wrote:
>
>>Greeting fellow EVers,
>>I've been playing with the idea of a generator trailer
>>for a little while now. I have the trailer, yes that
>>was the easy part. I am having great troubles finding
>>an affordable (<$1000) diesel/Bio diesel generator or
>>ever just the engine and I can attach the gen head
>>later. I didn't go through all this trouble just to
>>burn gas :p
>>I'm guessing I need 10-15KW. any suggestions? how are
>>the rest of you doing this?
>>thank you for your input!
While I like biodiesel, it's rather hard to find
lightweight, small diesel.
A Geo Metro/Suzuki 3cyl only weighs 100 lbs and run at
low rpm like 3000 rpm would easily do it for you at very low
pollution levels. You could run it on ethanol, E 85 if you
like with a little extra work depending on your goals.
You should be able to get your power requirements down
to 100wthrs/mile where a 7 kw could do you well. The
Subaru/Robin industural engines can be tuned for low
pollution and good SFC. You can use the generator to start
it.
A important thing is to use the correct generator head.
The best is a shunt wound version of the series EV motors as
they put out the power without a problem and what I'll use.
AC single phase don't work because of Power Factor problems.
With some work, you could also power the wheels with
the ICE, shunt motor too for more power, higher eff at
higher complications.
Jerry Dycus
>>
>>Brian
>>81'Bradley GTII
>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> So - first order approximation, say that you batteries have
>> 5 mOhm internal resistance and are sitting at 12.5V:
>> at 1000A the voltage will sag to 12.5 - (1000 x 0.005) = 7.5V
>> but you will notice that within seconds the voltage will be
>> lower, more in the high 6 Volts.
>>
>>
>> Cor van de Water
What is the internal resistance of Trojan T 125's?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.crazypc.com/products/cooling/reservoirs.htm#pumps
oops, I got the danger den mag II, I had gotten the MCP350 from these
guys also, The mag ii looks to be half way between on performance,
maybe a mcp650 for a z2k?
They are very slow to fill orders, Paid 2nd day last time and took over
a week. Don't know why I ordered from them again.
It is funny, the mcp350 seems ok when the dc-dc works, but chargeing the
aux battery seperatly means I run with 12V and lower and just under 12V
it starts cutting out or under performing. Since microprocessor
controlled it could brown out and stop I guess.
I ordered a iota dc-dc, the dls 220-55. It arrived today but required a
signature, grrr, gotta try and catch the ups guy. I hate that it ads 2
or 3 days to a delivery. I like having things delivered to where I work,
but I ma at a brand new job and haven't figured out that relationship
yet. They should leave it at the closest UPS store about a block away
so I can pick it up after work.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> So - first order approximation, say that you batteries have
>> 5 mOhm internal resistance and are sitting at 12.5V:
>> at 1000A the voltage will sag to 12.5 - (1000 x 0.005) = 7.5V
What is the internal resistance of Trojan T 125's?
If this is accurate, T-125's have: "0.0038"
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/lab/8679/evcalc.html
These little bats m Ohm's really surprised me..
http://www.odysseyfactory.com/specs.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack Murray wrote:
> Optima yellow top... 55ah at 20-hour rate... 25ah at 1-hour rate...
> so would a DOD of 50% actually mean only draw 12.5 amps over an hour?
Close. 50% DOD means you have removed 50% of the amphours available *at
that load current*. So, if the battery delivers 25amps for 1 hour
(25ah), you are at 50% DOD after 1/2 hour at 25 amps. This is close, but
not quite the same thing as 1 hour at 12.5 amps.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Lee Hart
>> Why aren't there any 2-wheel trailers with 2 hitches, where both
>> wheels caster or steer to turn with the car?
steve clunn wrote:
> The problem with this is that you then have a lot of weight that
> will "wag" the tail of the car much worse...
That makes sense. But I was assuming a trailer that is fairly light
compared to the weight of the tow vehicle. Like a 500 lbs trailer on a
2500 lbs car, etc.
I'm sure you're right that you would not want a heavy trailer with
castered wheels!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ken Albright wrote:
> I have had problems with two potboxes and wonder if this is common
> or if there is something I could be doing to cause it.
The Curtis PB6 is a painfully expensive box with a pitifully cheap
potentiometer inside it. It does not hold up well, because the pot
wasn't built for the rigors of the automotive environment.
You can take it apart and spray it with contact cleaner. It will work
for another year or so, then fail again.
You can replace it with another cheap 20k pot (20k ohms because you need
0-5k, and it only rotates about 1/4th of a revolution). It will last
another few years, and go bad again.
Or, you can buy a high-quality sealed potentiometer for about $10, which
will last the life of the car. I like the Allen Bradley type "AB", or
one of its second sources.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Coate wrote:
> I recall discussion that using copper lugs to connect to NiMH (or
> other Nickel- based) batteries would be a bad thing as the copper
> would soon corrode.
>
> Would the typical MagnaLugs(tm) lugs which are tin plated copper
> hold up? Or will the tin react too? If so, what other choices are
> there?
You'll get corrosion whenever you place two different metals in contact
with each other, and get an electrolyte on it. An "electrolyte" is
wather with anything that makes it conduct electricity better; could be
sulfuric acid (from a lead-acid battery), potassium hydroxide (from a
nicad or nimh), or even just rain water and road salt.
Since the terminals of nicad and nimh cells are nickel, using copper for
the terminals provides the dissimilar metals. Any leakage or gassing
from the cell provides the electrolyte. Corrosion is inevitable.
So, you're better off using nickel or nickel-plated hardware.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I will add one more thing about small taps. Espcially small fine
threadsd in aluminum, They make a tap called a roll tap, the hole is
drilled and reamed a little bigger and the tap has no flutes and doesn't
"cut". It instead forms the thread by pushing the aluminum around.
While this sounds like it would be worse, it actually makes a
better,stronger thread and the tap without flutes is a lot stronger.
4-40 and smaller is the point where these really shine.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can appreciate the isolation of the chassis ground from the
high-voltage pack.
A car will use the same amount of energy for accessories whether it
comes from the main pack or an accessory battery. There are losses
associated with a DC-DC converter. I think using a NiMH battery for
accessories makes more sense, you can increase its voltage by using 12
cells, it will weigh less and have more power than using a DC-DC getting
power from lead-acid batteries, and cost less as well given what appears
to be some rather expensive DC-DC converters being talked about.
It seems to me that cell equalization must be addressed in some manner
even without tapping into a subset of the pack for accessories.
Just my opinion, I appreciate the responses.
Jack
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The danger den mag II looks good for the price. What kind of coolants do they
use in PCs? It looks
like they use water and dye it for the appropriate look. I like the UV reactive
dyes. Also check
out the Thermaltake inline temp unit, excellent idea for monitoring the Zilla
cooling, only $27.
Range is 0C to 90C.
Will water work OK with a Zilla? Will these pumps handle regular automotive
coolant? I have to be
concerned with subzero temps in the winter. One of the additives does include
ethylene glycol,
but...
Dave Cover
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://www.crazypc.com/products/cooling/reservoirs.htm#pumps
>
> oops, I got the danger den mag II, I had gotten the MCP350 from these
> guys also, The mag ii looks to be half way between on performance,
> maybe a mcp650 for a z2k?
>
> They are very slow to fill orders, Paid 2nd day last time and took over
> a week. Don't know why I ordered from them again.
>
> It is funny, the mcp350 seems ok when the dc-dc works, but chargeing the
> aux battery seperatly means I run with 12V and lower and just under 12V
> it starts cutting out or under performing. Since microprocessor
> controlled it could brown out and stop I guess.
>
> I ordered a iota dc-dc, the dls 220-55. It arrived today but required a
> signature, grrr, gotta try and catch the ups guy. I hate that it ads 2
> or 3 days to a delivery. I like having things delivered to where I work,
> but I ma at a brand new job and haven't figured out that relationship
> yet. They should leave it at the closest UPS store about a block away
> so I can pick it up after work.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For the newest members of the list and the rest of us that are interested,
the following is a summary of this years achievement of the Current
Eliminator V and its owner, designer, builder and driver Dennis Berube:
This is a historic year (2006) for Division 7 of the National Hot Rod
Association (NHRA). Since the NHRA's inception in 1951, all of the top
competitors in it's ranks have run on combustible fuels, this is the first
time an all-electric vehicle has gone this far in the division finals for
bracket racing.
Dennis Berube owns an Electric dragster named the "Current Eliminator V"
(CE-V). He races the CE-V religiously at Speedworld Raceway Park in
Surprise, Arizona. See it at his site:
http://www.currenteliminator.net/home/
Dennis and the CE-V hold the WORLD RECORD in the NHRA for the fastest time
in the quarter mile for an ALL-electric vehicle at 8.801 seconds! The
CE-V is truly fastest quarter mile EV on the PLANET!!!!
Presently, Dennis is "Bracket Racing" the Current Eliminator V at
Speedworld. Arizona is in Division 7 of the NHRA and he is the
current points leader for the "Super Pro" Group. See the latest point
standing, it is posted at: http://speedworldmotorplex.com/results.htm
The next important Local event at Speedworld in Surprise Az will occur on
September 16 at 8:00 AM. http://speedworldmotorplex.com/schedule.htm
This is the final local event of the season for Dennis' class.
As a result of this seasons racing, the top 4 from each track in Division
7 (Dennis is guaranteed to be in the top 4) will then go to Bakersfield
California for the Division 7 "Race of Champions" on October 13 through
15. At that race the top 4 from each Division 7 track compete for the
single winner from Division 7.
http://www.nhra.com/aboutnhr/etseries.htm#finals
The single winner from Division 7 will then go to Pomona California to
compete in the overall "Race of Champions" for NHRA Bracket Racing on
November 9 through 12. http://www.pomonaraceway.com/2006/schedule.html
Dennis has as good a chance as any to make it to Pomona California. He
is continually keeping his car in top condition and it shows with the
results he has achived this year. All of us afilliated with Electric
Vehicles can be proud of how far Dennis has taken the CE-V in the NHRA!
For a more detailed explanation of Dennis Berube, the Current Eliminator V
and bracket racing, go to the bottom of the following website:
https://dm3electrics.com/
Background info:
"Super Pro" is a category of the type of dragster and
driver skill level, if you look at the standings:
http://speedworldmotorplex.com/results.htm
- you will see Super Pro is the highest category of Bracket racers,
essentially they are some of the best drivers and cars in bracket
racing.
A "Division" is an area of the country - Division 7 is the southwestern
division. There is one other electric dragster in Division 7 - Tracy
Miller, and should be at the competition in Bakersfield CA on October
13-15. All the other cars are fueled dragsters. Bakersfield will be the
race to find out who is the best in Division 7.
http://www.nhra.com/aboutnhr/etseries.htm#finals
We wish you all the luck possible Dennis!!
Jimmy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jeff,
Jeff Shanab writes:
> It is funny, the mcp350 seems ok when the dc-dc works, but
> chargeing the aux battery seperatly means I run with 12V and
> lower and just under 12V it starts cutting out or under
> performing. Since microprocessor controlled it could brown
> out and stop I guess.
You might also find that it will refuse to work, or work intermittently, above
around 13.5 volts (operating range is 9 - 13.2V according to specs), which took
us a while to work out when we first setup our EV -- dc/dc would turn on with
the vehicle and the pump etc would start, then as the SLI voltage rose the pump
would turn off; so after every quick "shakedown" drive around the block we'd
find the pump stopped. And when you've got it in your head that you must have a
dodgy connection somewhere... :-)
If you hook your new iota up to provide the usual SLI range, you'll probably
need to drop the voltage to the pump by 1.5V or so.
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd call it more of a spectrum. Certainly you are _safer_ with a
faster accelerating car in some circumstances -- the acceleration
gives you another option. Another thought: People expect big vehicles
to be slower, but they don't expect cars to be as slow as semi
trucks.
I had a Japanese truck that topped out at 65 or 70 mph, and could
barely get going up a hill. I felt perfectly safe. I also had a Fiat
850 Spyder that hit 63 mph once. I was almost hit several times, more
power would have made it safer.
If you are designing an EV, I think most people would be happiest
(and safest) if it accelerated about like a typical gas car.
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ... However, the minimum accelleration "needed" is far
> lower than most cars provide. Car accelleration is based more on
> people's "wants" than on what is actually needed.
>
> Think about the success small cars like the old VW Beetle with its
> 40hp
> engine, or Geo Metros with their little 3-cyl engines. Consider the
> family with a boat or trailer in tow. Think of all the trucks and
> buses
> on the roads. They all have a low power-to-weight ratios, and
> accellerate much slower than normal cars. Yet the highways are full
> of them!
>
> We all know people that curse anyone who drives slower than them.
> "How
> DARE those [EMAIL PROTECTED] slowpokes get in MY way, and prevent me from
> drag
> racing to the next traffic light, or keep me from driving 20mph
> over the speed limit!"
>
> But as a practical matter, the minimum accelleration needed is only
> enough to keep up with the *slowest* vehicles on the roads. That's
> going to be big trucks and buses; not sports cars.
> ...
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 6:51 PM
Subject: Re: What does it take to convert a truck?
The 11 has 2 times the torque as the 9 when given the same volts and
amps , ( half the rpm , of course, no over unity ) so it's much like 2
9's in series . I'd say you'd still need a 2k controller or a tranny .
I think there is a subtle point here that shouldn't be missed. If you
have a high voltage pack,
2 - 9" and a series parallel shift off of a zilla 1K, Couldn't you
have similar acceleration as the 11 with a Zilla 2k off the line.
not off the line , as the 11 puts out 2 times the torque for the same amps
and volts , so your 2 9's in series would act like a 11 and even with a 300v
pack they would only see 150 each or less with a lot of voltage sag, , .
Where the 2 9's would do better would be when you put them in parallel , and
start pulling 4 times the amp as the 11 starts to fall asleep for the hi rpm
. at about 60 mph the mitshue pu really felt like it was time to shift even
though it was in 4th.
Lets
face it, you can't push too many amps or over 170Volts per commutator.
Then the zilla 1K shifts electronically and the 2 9's give twice the
cruising torque per amp as 1 9" or similar to the 11. (actually, if you
pushed the Mitsubishi tranny to what 2 9's or an 11 can put out, it will
explode!).
yes , mine started making funny noises when I put some big tires on .
My next project is going to be a Porsche 912 that I got from Paul and It
will have 2 9's with parallel / series shifting , but I still waiting for a
controller .
Steve clunn
With a single 11 you have to have the zilla 2k to get enough amps off
the line for direct drive.
Obviously sustained high power and drag slick stickyness and the zilla
2k is gonna win, but for day to day use, the dual 9 with no tranny
sounds pretty good.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
I tried an RV sink water pump, the smallest one, but the continous duty
for the EV resulted in a short , noisy life. These CPU water pumps are
quiet and because they have no shaft seals, they use very little power
for their output. I will let the list know how they perform. They
currently run $39.
Would be good to know how they perform. Keep in mind it needs to handle
hot water (not as hot as in ICE case, but hot) and also not to get
damaged with 50:50 water and ethylene-glycol for those who use it
in sub-freezing temp climates.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
I just got confirmation that an independent video documentary producer, is
intending to tape the NEDRA Late Night Nationals.
Rumors are the footage will be sent to a broadcasting station in Canada
for news picks and then sent to New York for editing a video news release
and a short documentary, if content warrants.
Having heard of this only last week the producer says, "This is best
efforts, limited budget, and good times."
Roderick Wilde
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.4/424 - Release Date: 8/21/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> 48V @ 1000 amps is roughly 48 hp. Put another way, that is roughly
>> the same HP as an old air cooled VW bug. A VW bug has pretty tepid
>> performance, even when it's only pushing around 2000 lbs.
>
> Agreed. However, that old VW Bug was 40hp *peak*. It certainly didn't
> deliver that at 70 mph, or it would have gone a heck of a lot faster. IT
> probably delivered more like 20hp average, over its entire speed range.
>
> If your EV can draw 48v at 1000a from the pack, over a modestly wide
> range of speed, then it is delivering 48hp *average*. That's going to
> accellerate a 2000 lbs vehicle a heck of a lot faster than a VW Beetle.
>
> Do a quick calculation. What is the 0-to-60 mph time for a 2000 lbs
> vehicle with 48hp over the range of 10-60 mph (can't have 48hp below
> 10mph or all you get is tire smoke and wheel spin!)
That's a good point. I should point out that I'm not saying that 48kw is
too low for an EV, rather that it is what I would consider a good minimum
amount for a relatively light EV (~3000 lbs).
I have a relatively light EV (3200 lbs) with a 30kw drive system (battery
limited) and it's acceleration is way too slow for frequent highway use.
In my opinion, when you use the minute hand instead of the second hand to
time your 0-60, that's too slow. I'm guessing that 48kw would bring the
0-60 down to 45 seconds or so, barely adequate.
I.e. acceptable, but just barely.
18kw is WAY to little for anything that is expected to drive on the
highway, unless it's incredibly light.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James,
Just to make all <Australians> feel less hard done by, ICE fuel is around
1,42euros/litre = $2,39AU/litre = US$1.82/litre, x 4.2 = $7.64US/Gal
and not enough expensive imho...
EV fuel is arround 0,10 euros/kwh
I definitely love my EVs
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 11:54 PM
Subject: Re: Driving habbits
> At 09:03 AM 21/08/06 -0700, Jim Husted wrote:
> ><snip> My biggest pet pieve is the guy who does 75 to 80 MPH anytime
there
> >is a passing lane only to slow back down to 45 after it's a single lane
> >again. <snip>
>
> They do that on this side of the planet, too...
>
> Just to make all the Americans feel less hard done by, ICE fuel is around
> $1.40Aus/litre, 1.4 x 0.7 = US$0.98/litre, x 4.2 = $4.12US/Gal
>
> I don't know how this compares, but EV fuel is 0.186/kWh, around US$0.13
on
> step 1 (first 500kWh) and then $0.138/kWh, around US$0.097/kWh, in this
> state (Tasmania) hydro or wind, plus a bit of gas and via the worlds
> longest undersea cable a bit of dirty brown coal fired mainland power.
>
> Regards
>
> [Technik] James
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: What does it take to convert a truck?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 6:51 PM
> Subject: Re: What does it take to convert a truck?
>
>
>> The 11 has 2 times the torque as the 9 when given the same volts and
>> amps , ( half the rpm , of course, no over unity ) so it's much like 2
>> 9's in series . I'd say you'd still need a 2k controller or a tranny .
>>
>> I think there is a subtle point here that shouldn't be missed. If you
>> have a high voltage pack,
>> 2 - 9" and a series parallel shift off of a zilla 1K, Couldn't you
>> have similar acceleration as the 11 with a Zilla 2k off the line.
>
> not off the line , as the 11 puts out 2 times the torque for the same amps
> and volts , so your 2 9's in series would act like a 11 and even with a 300v
> pack they would only see 150 each or less with a lot of voltage sag, , .
> Where the 2 9's would do better would be when you put them in parallel , and
> start pulling 4 times the amp as the 11 starts to fall asleep for the hi rpm
> . at about 60 mph the mitshue pu really felt like it was time to shift even
> though it was in 4th.
>
> Lets
>> face it, you can't push too many amps or over 170Volts per commutator.
>> Then the zilla 1K shifts electronically and the 2 9's give twice the
>> cruising torque per amp as 1 9" or similar to the 11. (actually, if you
>> pushed the Mitsubishi tranny to what 2 9's or an 11 can put out, it will
>> explode!).
>>
> yes , mine started making funny noises when I put some big tires on .
>
> My next project is going to be a Porsche 912 that I got from Paul and It
> will have 2 9's with parallel / series shifting , but I still waiting for a
> controller .
> Steve clunn
>
>> With a single 11 you have to have the zilla 2k to get enough amps off
>> the line for direct drive.
>>
>>
>> Obviously sustained high power and drag slick stickyness and the zilla
>> 2k is gonna win, but for day to day use, the dual 9 with no tranny
>> sounds pretty good.
>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Have a look on the EVBMS yahoo group.
John Lussmyer (of recently incinerated garage fame) designed a nifty
BMS/regulator system for lithium batts.
Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Sunday, 20 August 2006 11:06 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: A123 systems pack
>
>
> I'm working on an A123 systems pack starting with my 24V
> Ebike (8S2P) and then
> progressing to my 144V ADC/Curtis car (46S12P). So far I have
> designed a
> rudamentary shunt regulator for each parallel element and am
> now about to start
> work on an optoisolated voltage/temp. monitor for the pack.
>
> Is anyone on the list with some electronics experience
> interested to collaborate?
>
> At this stage my time to progress it is limited but Im
> determined to get it
> happening before my PbAcid batteries die (most likely in
> about 6 months).
>
> A123 M1 batteries hold the most promise for me as they are
> mass produced, have
> incredible discharge specs, scalable into big packs and will
> most likely come
> down in price in future.
>
> Regards, Rod Dilkes
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Joe (and all),
Been meaning to write you for over a week now to thank you for your kind
hospitality, great company, fascinating conversation, and superb filet
mignon while the RAV was charging! Yes, the steak was damn gooooood!
Awesome! You 'da MAN!!!
But I've gotten backlogged with stuff here since returning from the
Orlando/Winter Park trip for the Central Florida premiere of WKtEC, not to
mention hundreds of emails and list posts sitting in my inbox. Same ol'
same ol' for everyone, I guess, everytime any of us travel w/o Internet
access.
Supposed to be getting a few hundred gallons of B100 biodiesel delivered
this week for my 11kW Kubota diesel generator to keep the house powered up
and the RAVs charged up after hurricanes (as we're just entering peak
hurricane season now) when the grid is down for 1-2 weeks at a time, but the
12V flooded PbA starter battery died on me after only 4 months! Now I know
what Steve Clunn is talking about when he says that newbies always seem to
kill their first pack. Well, my two RAV4 NiMH packs are doing great, but I
don't have any experience with PbA and just killed my first PbA batt. It
completely self-discharged after only one month because I didn't put the
trickle charger on it for the first month, was all the way down to 6V at
rest (how the hell could something like that happen?), then brought it back
to life with a 12V battery charger I went out and bought just for that
purpose at AutoZone (hit it with 10A for 6 hours), which then worked OK for
the next 3 months (to start the generator for its 1-hour monthly run), but
the darn thing just won't hold a charge anymore. Well the Kubota guys felt
sorry for me and just gave me a free new batt but told me to put that
trickle charger on it from day one. Gotta go out and get some electrolyte
this week to fill up this new batt.
Would actually love to accept John Wayland's invitation to you and me to go
out to Portland for the NEDRA Nationals next weekend; I hear WKtEC director
Chris Paine will be there, TV news coverage, car mag journalists, the works.
Sounds awesome. But the wife is so pissed at me, she won't allow me to do
anymore EV stuff or go to anymore EVents until I get going on this
kitchen remodel project that I've been promising but procrastinating on for
5 years now. She doesn't even want to hear about EVs anymore. I think
Steve Clunn (and probably many others on the list) can relate to that!
Sometimes I actually have to remind her that it is an *EV* that she is
driving everyday and not to forget it, so she should really cut me some
slack on all the EV stuff.
By the way, Steve, speaking of you, if ya got your ears on, I just read your
post about that one weak battery on your rider-mower, and I think someone
responded by saying that's a good reason to put regs on them. Well, what's
with that? I thought you had Rudman Regs on them, at least you did several
months ago when I was up there and you showed me the Regs blinking on those
batts on the mower near the end of the charge. So what happened -- did you
take them off? Wouldn't that solve that weak batt problem if you left the
regs on? Or did you have to take them off because you do such immensely
fast dump-charges now at 150 Amps up to around 90% SOC and thus there's no
point in having regs since you don't finish the last 10% of the charge
anyway? But if so, doesn't that also explain why you're seeing the
divergence between the batts? You need to finish and equalize more often.
I find this true on the RAVs also. In order to extend and hopefully
maximize batt life, I use the Pre-A/C timer to interrupt the charge at ~93%
SOC every time so as to avoid the big exothermic self-discharge from 100%
down to 93% SOC, unless I'm going to be driving immediately upon charge
termination, like on those occasional long 100-mile drives, in which case I
let it go all the way to 100% SOC and then drive off immediately upon
reaching 100%. But being a creature of habit, sometimes I just continue
doing this (charging only to 93% SOC) for 4 or 5 months continuously without
allowing finishing and equalization to occur. So I find growing divergence
in module voltages. Then the problem is that one equalization sometimes
isn't even enough; it would really need a few successive equalizations. But
the problem is that the battery computer and its software in the RAV have a
built-in secret algorithm, that no one has been able to definitively hack,
which seems to call for equalization only about once every ~1,000 miles. So
if I go for 4 or 5 months and then allow equalization, the thing won't
equalize again on the next time after that, not for another 1,000 miles. I
recently read a post on the RAV4 list where longtime RAV4 guru and list
administrator Tom Dowling acknowledged this problem and said that holding up
equalization for several months like this causes too much of a divergence
which can't be corrected with only a single equalization and thus that the
pack really needs to be allowed to equalize about once a month.
Like Joe Vitek, Steve Clunn is also the consummate hospitable charging host
whenever I pass through Ft. Pierce with a RAV. I'm always learning
something new (and for me that's not hard, as I'm still pretty much at the
bottom of a very steep learning curve) from Steve at his Grassroots EV
facility every time I'm there. Last time it was seeing Rudman Regs in
action. This time Steve showed me how another type of reg work; these were
fairly simple Lee Hart type of light bulbs, I think they're called zener
diodes or something like that, IIRC. I believe Steve was planning to use
them (instead of Rudman Regs, for some reason) in the Porsche that he was
finishing up late that night before leaving the next morning to deliver it
to his doctor customer in West Virginia. I guess maybe Steve went with the
light bulb regs on the Porsche because they're even cheaper than the Rudman
regs, and Steve had so much money into that Porsche that he was pretty much
right up against his budgetary limits. Is that right, Steve?
Then Steve (definitely the east coast KING of dump-charging) showed me his
150A ultra-fast dump-charge in action from the work truck's pack to the
rider-mower's pack. I didn't fully comprehend how this works (and didn't
have time to get a full explanation because I was just taking off in the RAV
at the end of its charge), as whenever I have seen Steve's dump-charge
schemes before, they have always involved a PFC in the middle to control the
charge, the flow from one pack to the other. But this just looked like a
big cable directly from one pack to the other without anything controlling
the flow. So I don't know, I guess maybe it's just like water flowing down
a hill with gravity from a higher pack voltage to a lower pack voltage, like
atmospheric high pressure flow to lower pressure, something like that. Is
that how it works, Steve? And if so, then I guess it will only work when
the truck's pack voltage is substantially higher than the mower's pack
voltage, right?
BTW, how did the doctor like his "new" electric Porsche?
In building out our planned Florida public charging network, we're working
on a number of charging sites in public parking garages, city halls, etc.,
things like that. But we're also going to have to have a number of private
locations at EVers' houses and businesses (our own versions of the Wayland
juice bar) in order to fill some key geographical gaps in the network. Back
in the spring, Steve and I had kind of come up with some "charging
ettiquette" rules for charging at private locations like this, which are
basically that the visiting EVer should not expect to be wined & dined, nor
entertained, nor given access to the host's house or business. Basically,
the visiting EVer should bring his own fold-up chair and reading material,
or whatever, and just be prepared to sit outside and entertain himself for a
few hours and not be a burden on the host and his family and not violate
their privacy. I feel very strongly about this that we must insist on
making this "charging ettiquette" standard if we are to have any hope of
encouraging folks to offer their homes and/or businesses as charging sites.
It's just not fair to expect hosts to have to entertain people. So I always
emphasize this whenever I ask charging favors like this when I travel, which
was the case with Joe Vitek (whom I didn't know and had never even heard of
before), who very generously answered my request I made over the list and
offered his dryer outlet at his house. I emphasized that I was fine with
sitting outside, would be bringing my folding chair and plenty of reading
material, and didn't want to be a burden to Joe and his family. And I
always say likewise to Steve Clunn. But of course Steve is the first one to
violate this rule on the hosting side, and so did Joe (not even knowing the
"charging ettiquette" thing himself). My God, these guys went out of their
way and went overboard to wine & dine me with filet mignon, great company,
fascinating conversation, air-conditioned comfort, free beginner baby
lessons on electrical stuff for dummies & poets (with full tuition waivers),
and in Steve's case, a full 5-piece jazz band. Man, that is a real treat
for anyone visiting in the Ft. Pierce area -- Steve and his band play some
awesome jazz! Plus Steve always has a loaner EV that he leaves at the
Grassroots EV facility for me to use while my RAV is charging so that I can
make my way down to the waterfront where he is playing jazz and grab a nice
seafood dinner while being entertained by Steve and the boys.
So Steve and Joe have completely turned this "charging ettiquette" idea on
its head, upside down, and have turned the visiting charging thing into what
basically amounts to a 5-star resort experience, complete with filet mignon,
free loaner EVs, jazz band entertainment, free tutorials, the works! I'm
now starting to wonder if maybe there isn't some sort of business
opportunity in this thing for them. They should really be charging a lot of
money for this. I'm thinking that this is maybe what the future will look
like someday when gasoline becomes too scarce and expensive for most people
to afford. This is what travel will become like. We will all have to learn
to slow down and enjoy life more, smell the roses, while our cars are
charging at enroute stops. The places we pass on the highways won't be just
a blur out the window anymore on a 15-hour non-stop drive, but we will
actually have to stop at these Joe Vitek and Steve Clunn steakhouse and bed
& breakfast 5-star resorts and have these terrific opportunities to actually
get to know some really fascinating people like Joe and Steve and learn some
new things. Life will become a lot more personable. In fact, this has been
the best thing about my EV experience of driving an EV for over 98% of all
of my driving needs -- it has not been the technology itself, although that
is indeed plenty impressive in its own right, but rather it has been and
continues to be all of the many interesting people that I am meeting and
getting to know. It has opened up new dimensions and a whole new world to
me that I never knew existed.
Joe Vitek is a very talented and experienced EE who formerly worked in
Silicon Valley and now works as an EE on the hi-tech Space Coast of Florida.
With my being completely ignorant of California, its culture, and geography,
Joe pulled out a detailed road map of the Silicon Valley area and gave me
the lay of the land, showed me where everything is, from Cisco to Tesla
Motors in San Carlos. It's not only California that I am woefully ignorant
of but also EEs. Joe is the first and only EE that I have ever had the
pleasure and privilege (and a real privilege it was indeed!) of sitting down
with and getting to know. Wow, what an education I was starting to get
there for a few hours! My head was swirling. But just as amazing was the
fact that Joe shattered whatever stereotypes I might have had about EEs,
whereby I would have imagined that electrical engineering is so intense and
demanding that it probably wouldn't leave much time for other liberal-artsy
type of studies in school. Wow, how wrong that is, at least in Joe's case.
Literature, history, you name it, Joe absolutely ran circles around me, just
blew me away with his knowledge of US history. Phew, how does this guy pack
so many hours into a day? It must be partly explained by the fact that I
gathered from his schedule that he only sleeps about 4 hours a night.
But what was even more amazing is that Joe and I found out that we have both
had almost the exact same, identical thoughts for 5 years now of what our
dream EV project would be, right down to the exact same car, the exact same
drivetrain, everything. A possible budding collaboration in the making
there! And Joe has got a nice big triple/quad bay shop, very well equipped
with an impressive array of tools. Everything needed right there to start a
hi-tech conversion business, and Joe's certainly got the knowledge, skills,
and experience to do so.
By the way, Joe, thanks for the kind words you spoke about me in your
previous post a week ago with all that glowing praise, but you're creating
expectations that I will certainly never be able to live up to in person and
will just disappoint folks when they come down here for our next big Battery
Beach Burnout NEDRA race in late January together with the 6th EVer All
Chapters EAA Conference the same weekend. Speaking of that, we would dearly
love to get John Wayland, Tim Brehm, and White Zombie down here as well as
some of the other west coast luminaries that we have all been reading about
and admiring for so many years. I know that Shawn Waggoner and Matt Graham
are working hard on that, organizing the two joint EVents, and seeing what
we can do to entice these legends to come down here in January, especially
because White Zombie and Joule Injected missed the opportunity to race
head-to-head back in May in Joliet, Illinois due to the race being rained
out there. So Joe, maybe you won't have to go all the way out to Oregon to
see White Zombie; if we get really lucky on that score (with John Wayland
and crew possibly gracing us with their presence), you might just be able to
come 150 miles down the road to Battery Beach Burnout at Moroso Motorsports
Park in West Palm Beach. Here's to hoping for a big turnout and burnout at
BBB!
Sorry to hear about your grandpa, Joe; hope he gets better and hangs on to
some good quality of life for some more years.
Best regards,
Charles Whalen
Delray Beach, FL
On Monday, August 21, 2006 1:17 PM, Joe Vitek wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John
Wayland
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 12:56 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Charles Whalen, WKTEC, and filet mignon
Joe, what a great post! You left out important details...rare, medium,
or medium well?
I cooked mine medium and Charles' was medium/well (he wanted well, but I
short cooked it).
Sorry Charlie! ;) He said it was all good, though. Man, that meat was
gooooddd...
You know, you and Charles should hop on a plane and come
out to the Wild West for the EV drags next weekend!
I wish I could do that. I was in Baltimore visiting my sick grandfather
this past weekend.
I don't know how much longer he is gonna be around. I will be there again
next weekend.
Again, that was a fun post to read this morning. Thanks for allowing us
in on your escapades with Charles.
No problem!
Man, I hope someday soon, I will be able to make a trip out there and see
some of this
really cool drag racing action in person. I love reading the posts about
y'all's
escapades!
--
joe
--- End Message ---
