EV Digest 5796
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Storing batteries dry, was:Re: Charles Whalen, WKTEC, and
filet mignon
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) What's faster? 2, 9's, 11's, or 13's?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Freedom EV Crash Test?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Freedom EV Crash Test?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: I don't need a dc-dc converter
by "Ev Performance (Robert Chew)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) corroding wires - *inside* the insulation!?
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Potbox alternative
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: A note on potentiometers
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: A note on potentiometers
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Potbox alternative
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: World's First Electric Junior Dragster
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: What's faster? 2, 9's, 11's, or 13's?
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: I don't need a dc-dc converter
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: What's faster? 2, 9's, 11's, or 13's?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) OT was RE: Generator Trailer
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Potbox alternative
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: PFC-30 Startup
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Converting a bug
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: corroding wires - *inside* the insulation!?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Conversions
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Inrush current limiting the IOTA DLS-55
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Electric AC compressor (HFC134a)
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Potbox alternative
by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:11 AM 22/08/06 -0400, Charles Whalen wrote:
Well the Kubota guys felt
sorry for me and just gave me a free new batt but told me to put that
trickle charger on it from day one. Gotta go out and get some electrolyte
this week to fill up this new batt.
G'day Charles, Floridites and All
Something that I encountered via boatie types, if you want to keep a
battery as a backup emergency starting battery then store it new, dry, and
the acid in a container with it. Now when you are out of options - even
years later, pour the acid into the cells, wait 20 to 30 mins and presto! a
3/4 charged battery to start your diesel from. So if you have another
battery (say in an ICE) that you can use for your monthly starts, keep your
new battery dry and fill it when you need to. Of course that may not be
appropriate if the genny is remote-start or the spouse or a child needs to
start it.
Hth,
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Or do I need 3 or 4 motors on the same shaft? How many Zilla's?
What's this issue about how good enough batteries to power existing
setups to their fullest potential don't currently exist? Are there
any batteries on the horizon that will?
How were there batteries in 1999 allowing a car to run in the 8's in
the 1/4? What was so magic about this batteries and why don't we have
anything like that now? Who has the tech details on those bats and
why can't we get someone like Duracell to make those bats?
Would the White Zombie as it is now run in the 10's if it had those
batteries? The 9's?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff, who is K-car?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: August 25, 2006 7:21 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: RE: Freedom EV Crash Test?
Actually....
As a car manufacturer, you are required to build a car that meets the
specifications. The crash testing is basically voluntary. What it boils
down to is you must be able to show a responsible and sufficient effort to
that end in order to get liability insurance, avoid court mandated recalls
and law suits. The use of an engineering service instead of physical crash
testing is to save money when going thru the iterations of re-design to get
it right. For physical crash testing you generally need to supply 3 rolling
vehicles and some interior mockups for impact testing.
K-car told me that the air-bag testing is one of the most difficult to get
correct, speed, angle etc for the various people sizes, seating positions
and steering column positions. The number of tests that are chosen are
totally at the discretion of the manufacturer.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On one project we worked on, the quote was over $500,000 just for the FMVSS
engineering work alone. And this did not include **any** crash testing or
usage of crash mules. Of course this quote was only for the certification
work - no design work at all, we had a number of engineers and automotive
designers who did all this work.
The reality is that for the small manufacturer, FMVSS is a lot of work and
expensive, but not insurmountable. Check out www.moslerauto.com as an
example of a small manufacturer who has been successful in bringing a small
start up company auto to FMVSS standards.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: August 25, 2006 7:21 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: RE: Freedom EV Crash Test?
Actually....
As a car manufacturer, you are required to build a car that meets the
specifications. The crash testing is basically voluntary. What it boils
down to is you must be able to show a responsible and sufficient effort to
that end in order to get liability insurance, avoid court mandated recalls
and law suits. The use of an engineering service instead of physical crash
testing is to save money when going thru the iterations of re-design to get
it right. For physical crash testing you generally need to supply 3 rolling
vehicles and some interior mockups for impact testing.
K-car told me that the air-bag testing is one of the most difficult to get
correct, speed, angle etc for the various people sizes, seating positions
and steering column positions. The number of tests that are chosen are
totally at the discretion of the manufacturer.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The 12 volt battery also adds to soften the large current peaks that some
buck convertors produce, especially the ones with small indcutors on them.
On 25/08/06, Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Paul G. wrote:
> So I went the "best" route (IMHO) and used an older Todd
> AC>DC converter (as a DC>DC) and completely tossed the 12v system
> battery. (Note: you can only do this if your DC>DC can handle your
> total 12v system load and if you can get away a complete
> shutdown if it fails.)
Note that there are a few other caveats to this approach:
- you can only do this if your DC/DC is beefy enough to handle the peak
loads your 12V system may place on it without shutting down/browning
out/failing
- if there is a failure of the DC/DC or a failure in the traciton system
(even something as simple as a fuse opening), you will be left without
12V power. This could be quite important safety-wise if driving at
night (no driving/head/emergency flasher lights), and will almost
certainly leave you stranded since most of our vehicles rely on the 12V
system to power the contactor(s) that connect our traction pack to the
motor controller. You would have to be equipped to tap your pack to
power the main contactor(s) just to move the vehicle in the event of a
DC/DC failure.
Paul's approach is the *lightest*, but I would strongly suggest the use
of some sort of 12V battery on the output of the DC/DC to hold up the
output for peak loads and to sustain the 12V rail for at least a short
time in the event of a DC/DC failure.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As I continue to poke at my battery pack, I have found that one sense
lead for the BMS is definitely in trouble: connectors at both ends were
corroded. But as I prepare to make a replacement, the strange part is
the entire wire is corroded, inside the insulation! As in a piece of ~18
gauge copper wire maybe 24" long and wherever I strip off the
insulation, the copper strands are all blackened and require significant
scrubbing to see the shiny copper.
What would cause this? Why this one wire and not the 25 or so other
sense leads? Is the corrosion the problem, or a symptom of another
problem? Before cleaning it up, there was leakage current between this
sense lead and another... would the leakage cause the corrosion or would
the corrosion build up and permit a leakage path? Does the chicken or
the egg come first ? ;-)
And thanks to those who explained the mysteries of chrome/nickel.
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1997 Solectria Force
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> You know, there's a reason I don't read this list on a regular basis
and it
> has to do with the tendancy of some list members to ignore proven
off the
> shelf solutions to simple problems. I've posted many times over the
years on
> alternatives to the convenient, but expensive and not very reliable
Curtis
> potbox, but almost always been ignored.
>
> I'll try again, just in case anybody is listening.
>
> If you've got a controller with a 0-5K, or 5-0K, or a potentiometer
input,
> then take a look at;
>
> http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=4246718
> and
> http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=7006457
>
> Automotive rated conductive plastic pots with 'D' shaft activation
and built
> in return springs.
>
> 5 million full cycles.
>
> 10 million 'dither' cycles.
>
Mouser stocks Vishay/Spectrol
(http://www.mouser.com/catalog/627/535.pdf) but not those nice
plastic-encased models. Wonder where we can get these in the US.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph,
If you take apart a pedal sold in music stores for guitar sound effects
and volume controls, you'll find that this method is used (for years...).
There is a shutter gradually blocking light to the opto-detector,
so "dead-spots" (as from mechanical wear of conventional pot) are
impossible.
Victor
Ralph wrote:
Hi Eric,
Has anyone developed a opto-isolator so there won't be dead spots? You know
sooner or later a potentiometer on the floor is going fail!
-Ralph
On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 12:13:30 -0700
Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I've spent a fair amount of time repairing audio equipment. One of the
more common problems is "scratching" in the volume knob, or dead spots,
or weird jumps. Replacing the pot is one option. Often a shot of what
used to be called "Color TV Tuner Cleaner", or "TV-Tuner/Control Cleaner
& Lubricant" from Radio Shack would do the trick. It's essentially
Dichloroflouroethane, mineral oil, and silicone lube.
Shoot it inside the pot housing, and run the pot back and forth through
it's full range several times. This product leaves a film of
(nonconductive) oil behind. Works like a champ. Best way to be sure
your pot is smooth again is to wire it up to a power supply, and put the
wiper connection to an o-scope, and see if it sweeps smoothly. Kinda
overkill, though.
WRT the "Hall Effect Potentiometers," the problem with these is that
they are _truly_ potentiometers. They provide a variable 0-5V at the
"wiper" output which is relational to the shaft position.
Unfortunately, what most controller manufacturers refer to as a
"potentiometer" is in fact a rheostat (actually, a potentiometer wired
as a rheostat). The hall effect pots cannot (directly) be used to
replace the pot used by a controller. It's probably possible to use the
output of an HE pot to control a transconductance amplifier, which would
emulate a rheostat.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Whoops, just read your response on this very thing - sorry, I should
read the list starting from the first message forward, not from the
last backward... No need to take pedals apart - you know what's inside ;-)
Victor
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Ralph,
If you take apart a pedal sold in music stores for guitar sound effects
and volume controls, you'll find that this method is used (for years...).
There is a shutter gradually blocking light to the opto-detector,
so "dead-spots" (as from mechanical wear of conventional pot) are
impossible.
Victor
Ralph wrote:
Hi Eric,
Has anyone developed a opto-isolator so there won't be dead spots? You
know sooner or later a potentiometer on the floor is going fail!
-Ralph
On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 12:13:30 -0700
Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I've spent a fair amount of time repairing audio equipment. One of
the more common problems is "scratching" in the volume knob, or dead
spots, or weird jumps. Replacing the pot is one option. Often a shot
of what used to be called "Color TV Tuner Cleaner", or
"TV-Tuner/Control Cleaner & Lubricant" from Radio Shack would do the
trick. It's essentially Dichloroflouroethane, mineral oil, and
silicone lube.
Shoot it inside the pot housing, and run the pot back and forth
through it's full range several times. This product leaves a film of
(nonconductive) oil behind. Works like a champ. Best way to be sure
your pot is smooth again is to wire it up to a power supply, and put
the wiper connection to an o-scope, and see if it sweeps smoothly.
Kinda overkill, though.
WRT the "Hall Effect Potentiometers," the problem with these is that
they are _truly_ potentiometers. They provide a variable 0-5V at the
"wiper" output which is relational to the shaft position.
Unfortunately, what most controller manufacturers refer to as a
"potentiometer" is in fact a rheostat (actually, a potentiometer
wired as a rheostat). The hall effect pots cannot (directly) be used
to replace the pot used by a controller. It's probably possible to
use the output of an HE pot to control a transconductance amplifier,
which would emulate a rheostat.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 05:53 AM 26/08/06 +0000, Death to All Spammers wrote:
<snip>
> then take a look at;
>
> http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=4246718
> and
> http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=7006457
> <snip>
Mouser stocks <snip> but not those nice
plastic-encased models. Wonder where we can get these in the US.
G'day Death, and All
Farnell owns Newark (IIRC). Here in Aus, Farnell can get anything from any
other part of Farnell in around 10 days max., so I assume that the other
parts of Farnell can do the same.
More significantly, can you get the device from somewhere other than the
pay-through-the-nose-for-service of organizations like Farnell and RS. My
company buys LOTS of stuff from Farnell - but we are fixing peoples
breakdowns and that could be costing thousands of dollars per hour or day.
We also buy from smaller people like Rockby http://www.rockby.com.au/ where
things we frequently need so put into stock can be got cheaper - an example
is IRFP460, Farnell around $12Aus for the cheapest permutation, Rockby
$2.70Aus, when on special. The 'trick' with the pot is to find it somewhere
like them.
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nate,
At NEDRA we have been working to put in an electric class for Jrs.
But we don't have one yet and we need racers!
The issue with kids racing the Jrs. is they are limited to a top
speed of 85 mph. So we have to structure our records differently then
the other classes. You go over that speed or max ET for your age
limit then you are out for the day. This is strictly enforced.
We would probably have to structure our records by age group and best
E.Ts under the ET limit specified for each age group.
For example:
Ages 8 & 9 - Best ET under Restricted ET of 12.90 seconds or slower
or best dial in under 12.90 seconds
Ages 10 - 12- Best ET under Restricted ET of 8.90 seconds or slower
or best dial in under 8.90 seconds
Ages 13-18 - Best ET under Restricted ET of 7.90 seconds or slower or
best dial in under 7.90 seconds
So we could set the records based on the best times below the
restricted ETs. Or we could determine winners at events by how close
they come to their dial-ins without breaking out.
To date we only have two racers who have actually raced electric jr
dragsters at our events. Brent Singleton who is now too old to race
Jrs. and a girl who has raced against Brent with her EJRD.
My good friends Eric and Tracie Miller raced an electric jr dragster
at our Power of DC events. Although she is an adult she has been
racing the dragster for several years. There is a picture of the
dragster in the banner of our Jr. Dragster Page that I am putting
together at http://www.nedra.com/jr_dragsters.html
If we get enough electric jrs at an event we could go by best Dial-in
similar to the way the jr system is set up now and set up a
competition similar to the way the NHRA does it now.
I would be glad to put together a proposal to the NEDRA Board so we
can at least have some guidelines and set up a system to acknowledge
records or winners for a particular age group. I've initiated this
discussion several times on the NEDRA Board and Roderick Wilde has
done alot of work behind the scenes to get electric jr dragsters to
race under the NHRA.
We also have rules and technical guidelines on the NEDRA site for
Electric Jr Dragsters at
http://www.nedra.com/jr_rules.html
The next step would be to set up classes or age divisions as outlined
above. It could be as simple as that.
But the main thing we need now are racers.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster - thinking about the Late Night Nationals
http://www.nedra.com
On Aug 25, 2006, at 10:40 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: "England Nathan-r25543" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: August 25, 2006 7:39:10 PM EDT
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: RE: World's First Electric Junior Dragster
Is there an electric class for Jr. Dragsters or not? I keep hearing
conflicting information but don't know anyone with an electric Jr.
Dragster and have not found them on the web.
Thanks,
Nate
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A 9", Z1K and 1000A batteries are a pretty good match for a quick vehicle.
2x 9"s and a Z2K and 2000A batteries is a Fast vehicle
1x 11" and a Z2K and 2000A would be faster off the line but fall off quicker at
high RPM
2x 11"s (and lower gears) and 2x Z2K (Twin Zillas? or better yet Otmar, sell 2x
Z2K's in a package and call them a Quadzilla :-)
and 2 strings of 2000A batteries would probably be insane. Might qualify you
for extra safety features on the car.
But if you could make Vette, Porsche and Viper drivers go home insulted with
two tiney 8"s that seems like the ticket. Just
enough, eh?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
> Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 7:08 PM
> To: EVDL
> Subject: What's faster? 2, 9's, 11's, or 13's?
>
>
> Or do I need 3 or 4 motors on the same shaft? How many Zilla's?
> What's this issue about how good enough batteries to power existing
> setups to their fullest potential don't currently exist? Are there
> any batteries on the horizon that will?
>
> How were there batteries in 1999 allowing a car to run in the 8's in
> the 1/4? What was so magic about this batteries and why don't we have
> anything like that now? Who has the tech details on those bats and
> why can't we get someone like Duracell to make those bats?
>
> Would the White Zombie as it is now run in the 10's if it had those
> batteries? The 9's?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought about that but even a typical high amp alternator would not be much
more than engine braking. You could use it for mild
coast downs and capture some energy back but you'd still need hardware braking.
I though I remember seeing Gadget put a larger
generator on the tailshaft to his Tirumph. I wonder what unit that is and how
well it works. Is it mainly for braking or mainly
for regen?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
> Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 4:24 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: I don't need a dc-dc converter
>
>
> However, I can see where the alternator off the tail shaft could be used
> as regenerative braking (with a dash switch override for cruising or
> night time driving)
>
> Tie the field to the brake light and to the clutch switch, if you have
> one. When braking it charges and when shifting it helps pull the rpm
> down for a faster,smoother shift. The problem with this is the windage
> losses are also high, ie even without an electrical load, alternators
> suck some power. Running a newer(internal fan) high amp alternator at a
> lower speed would help reduce that.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
G'day All
Now here is an opportunity for the peanut gallery!
At 10:07 PM 25/08/06 -0500, Ryan Stotts wrote:
Or do I need 3 or 4 motors on the same shaft?
<peanut gallery mode on>
Need/want/desire, acceleration is all about power to weight. An ultra-light
skeleton with 1/3 of the power can out accelerate a full-bodied car
weighing 4 times as much but with 3 times the power. Big motors produce big
torque, but need big batteries to deliver the power and a big chassis to
carry the weight. Big motors are brute force solutions, and really are a
solution for a race vehicle that is designed with good road range as well.
White Zombie is a balancing act of a 'petit' vehicle with a lot of strength.
How many Zilla's?
One per motor, since the peanut gallery doesn't have to find the $s. White
Zombie (since you mention it) looses time during the series/parallel
changeover time. If that can be eliminated, who knows, maybe 1/4 or 1/2
second faster?
What's this issue about how good enough batteries to power existing
setups to their fullest potential don't currently exist? Are there
any batteries on the horizon that will?
A123 lithium batteries seem to have the promise. Electric technology can
deliver a lot more power than any battery can deliver that is small enough
for EV use. I spec'd out and priced a battery system recently that is
comfortable delivering over 500kW for 5 mins which under a certain duty
cycle should last 15 years. It just weighed around 10 tonnes. Land speed
racing, anyone?
How were there batteries in 1999 allowing a car to run in the 8's in
the 1/4? What was so magic about this batteries and why don't we have
anything like that now? Who has the tech details on those bats and
why can't we get someone like Duracell to make those bats?
IIRC these were lead-acid batteries, that take the familiar Optima /Exide
Orbital spiral methodology to an extreme - TMF (Thin metal film) that
delivered more amps for their mass (and consequently their amp-hour
capacity) than any other technology at the time. A few lucky racers got to
test the g-force capabilities of these cells before the reason they were
being developed was canned and they became a piece of history. Duracell
would NOT be intereted for the size of the market, it'd be a job for
someone to set up an Otmar/Cafe Electric style business to do a niche job.
Would the White Zombie as it is now run in the 10's if it had those
batteries? The 9's?
If the specs on WZ's pages are current, there are 720lbs of batteries in
the car that weighs 2,350lbs. If the battery weight could be halved, the
car would come in at 1990lbs, around 15% lighter all up, plus driver
probably pulls that back to around 10% lighter. WZ is (and I believe that
John has no interest in changing the fact) a fully steel bodied car with
glass in the windows and functional doors. 10% lighter by itself is
unlikely to pull the times in from 12.151 to under 11 seconds.
A "Black Zombie" full-racing tricked-out version with polycarbonate in
place of most of the glass, every bit of steel possible replaced with
composite and every bit of shaving possible might make sub-10s or sub-9s, I
don't know what the potential is.
White Zombie would benefit a lot from a "magic bullet" that pulls the
weight down by that much, as long as traction is not lost, my guess would
be sub 11.5 seconds. There is a lot of tuning that WZ can improve by, but
costs start to run away. A second Zilla 2000A, high voltage so that both
motors are pulling 100% of the way may save 1/4 or 1/2 second or more, but
John is running on a budget. Anyone want to lend him one for a record run?
Faster acting series/parallel changeover contactors may save 1/8 to 1/4
second, but where do they come from? Last race report I read, John was
having vibration problems again, that needs to be dealt with. As far as I
know, 90% or more of WZ acceleration is done by half track length, I gather
field weakening didn't work out to help the top end, stiffer batteries that
keep the voltage higher should help. If the motor fields are parallel
split, WZ possibly could go faster by changing the diff ratio to drop motor
RPMs for the speed, and add a series/parallel mode to the fields to
increase field strength at lower RPMs to make up for it. But then it
wouldn't be the ultra-clean installation that it now is, and would add
another set of contactors to delay acceleration by their shift time. No
room in the motors to have extra fields to switch in at low RPMs to up the
bottom-end field strength and torque, so that's out.
Going by the post a week or so ago about NEDRA enforcing the NHRA rules
requiring reverse, John will be adding weight by adding a reverse system,
but I'm sure he's going to be trying something else to tweek the system and
maybe break into the sub-12 second zone.
<peanut gallery mode off>
<fan mode on>
GO JOHN GO!!!
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You could try this
http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=28
I particularly like their return policy :-O
brian baumel wrote:
<snip> are there any
> other options that anyone can think of other than a
> bio diesel gen, the pusher trailer or the batt
> trailer?
>
> thanks again
>
> Brian
> 81' Bradley GTII
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds ideal to me. This stuff about variable opto and other schemes is
getting absurd. I really didn't even want to discuss that solution, but
somehow still feel compelled to do so. First off, and most significant,
the gain of an opto is typically very unpredictable. Second you might
have to pull some tricks to condition this input to replace a pot with
it. Third I don't expect a homebuilt device to be anything near reliable.
OK, it's not impossible, a gain compensation scheme is possible, but for
the love of god why make it this complicated with a hack solution? I
appreciate the desire to create a novel solution but it's going to be
counterproductive in this area. Radio Shack pots are unreliable in this
duty and generally unacceptable, but that doesn't mean ALL pots are
unacceptable. Many out there are made for many millions of operations
with an exceptionally high degree of reliability, such as the Farnell
part he lists (like the return springs) or any Throttle Position
Sensor. A simple TPS can fail when it gets old or may last forever,
MTBF for the ones I know seems to be >20 yrs of daily driver use.
That's moving it with the throttle in the same way you would in an EV
throttle, and it's made to operate at 140F or more on top of an IC
engine. Real tough duty stuff.
Danny
Death to All Spammers wrote:
You know, there's a reason I don't read this list on a regular basis
and it
has to do with the tendancy of some list members to ignore proven
off the
shelf solutions to simple problems. I've posted many times over the
years on
alternatives to the convenient, but expensive and not very reliable
Curtis
potbox, but almost always been ignored.
I'll try again, just in case anybody is listening.
If you've got a controller with a 0-5K, or 5-0K, or a potentiometer
input,
then take a look at;
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=4246718
and
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=7006457
Automotive rated conductive plastic pots with 'D' shaft activation
and built
in return springs.
5 million full cycles.
10 million 'dither' cycles.
Mouser stocks Vishay/Spectrol
(http://www.mouser.com/catalog/627/535.pdf) but not those nice
plastic-encased models. Wonder where we can get these in the US.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ALRIGHT!
The first Hybrid Work Truck....
If the genny charges the S-10 battery pack, will you be able to haul the CE and
its trailer?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
> Rich my street/strip S10 is more than half done now,wiring will start in the
> next month or so.As you know I bought a pfc20 from you a while back and you
> already know it will be hooked to the pack at all times.Questions I have: Is
> there any draw on the pack when the charger is pluged in without any ac on
> the
> input? Since this truck will have a small ice welder/generator on board(Truck
> has a welding rig bed and I am in the welder repair business/good for my
> pr)can
> I have the genset runing powering your charger while runing the truck down
> the
> street/strip? Dennis
>
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I'd like to convert a 65-79 bug and achieve the following:
top speed - 50 MPH (even on slight incline which means on the flat more like
65 MPH)
acceleration - 0-40 MPH in 20 sec. Not super fast, but not dangerously slow
range - 21 miles to 80% DOD, average speed 35 MPH, some stop and go, speeds
up to 50 MPH, very slight grades in areas.
Does anyone have a used motor / coupler / adapter ready to go for a bug
conversion that they are willing to part with. I'd be interested in:
8" ADC
9" ADC
36 - 48 V series or compound wound lift motor properly adapted
2CM77 or 2CM88 with adapter
Why? That thing can put out 93 ft lb and is rated 24 kW for 5 min. Not
very good
at all on efficiency, but it will move the car, and no one else wants it.
Used kaylor kit, series or compound wound motor (7 or 15 HP).
I AM NOT interested in anything with a 400 A aircraft generator (shunt wound
only) because of the poor acceleration.
Reply off line if you have some parts stashed away that you are willing to
part with.
I want something complete - motor / coupler / adapter. I don't want to make
a 200 hour project out of putting the thing together. I want to be able to
bolt up the motor to the transaxle in less than 12 hours and be ready to start
the wiring abd battery installation.
I already have the controller / pot box ... But, I'd be interested in some
used / surplus / excess battery interconnect cables if they are 2/0.
Steve Powers
Atlanta, GA
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jim,
I find this to be true not only with copper, but with cadmium plating,
chrome, aluminum and steel connections and/or wire connections.
The atmosphere around the batteries and in a enclosed battery box, that is
even vented with 150 CFM filter air, will corroded these items.
Also when connecting two dissembler metals together in any atmosphere will
cause a electro plating or a de-electro plating on one metal to the other,
which reacts with the air, causing corrosion.
To prevent this break down of dissembler metals.
1. Do not place bare aluminum, copper, steel,
zinc, solders, silver and cadmium plated metals
in a battery atmosphere or a enclose battery
box that even have over 150 CFM air exchange.
2. Lead to lead connections are good, but you
note that any surface contact with the air,
will darken or began to oxidized. Try to seal
the connector with a anti-corrosion compound.
I found that painting on a thick coat of epoxy
works fine.
The disadvantage, is that lead to lead
connections can shrink back (melt back).
3. Brass connections are better, if coated with
a thin layer of lead and sometimes coated with
a epoxy material.
Brass allows a higher contact pressure, which
reduces the shrink back.
4. The best type of connection is gold plated
brass connections. This type of connection can
be connected directly to the battery post or
even to another dissembler metal.
In our electrical work, we normally use a
bi-metal type of connection, which is a
connector which separates two dissembler types
of metal.
So, I converted my battery connections to a
bi-metal type. I used a gold plated brass
battery clamp, that clamp around the low
profile battery pad. This clamp has a gold
plated bolt and nut, so I can bolt my existing
battery links that had the cadmium plated
terminal lugs.
Today after 2 years of usage, there is no
corrosion, oxidation, and even the cadmium
plated terminal lugs are still very bright.
The corrosion, that travel up a conductor between
the insulation is more prone in stranded conductors, cause by electrical
induction.
In are electrical work, normally in the overhead
electrical work, the bare conductors are not directly connected to a
terminal point.
We crimp on a end terminal connection, which slips over the insulation of
the wire about 1 to 2 inches. A sealant is apply over the insulation before
this connections is put on.
The connection end, may just be a round diameter rod or may be any other
type of connection.
You can get these type of connectors for any wire size. In the smaller
size, I like to use the bare type of connecter and than a heat shrink with a
sealant in it to be use corrosion type atmospheres.
A source for these wire end connectors is from:
Thomas and Betts from www.newark.com
It is best to enclose the BMS units in a water tight seal chassis boxes if
you can fit them in your battery location. I got mine form radioshack.com
which is a commercial division of
radio shack, not your local store type.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 7:30 PM
Subject: corroding wires - *inside* the insulation!?
> As I continue to poke at my battery pack, I have found that one sense
> lead for the BMS is definitely in trouble: connectors at both ends were
> corroded. But as I prepare to make a replacement, the strange part is
> the entire wire is corroded, inside the insulation! As in a piece of ~18
> gauge copper wire maybe 24" long and wherever I strip off the
> insulation, the copper strands are all blackened and require significant
> scrubbing to see the shiny copper.
>
> What would cause this? Why this one wire and not the 25 or so other
> sense leads? Is the corrosion the problem, or a symptom of another
> problem? Before cleaning it up, there was leakage current between this
> sense lead and another... would the leakage cause the corrosion or would
> the corrosion build up and permit a leakage path? Does the chicken or
> the egg come first ? ;-)
>
> And thanks to those who explained the mysteries of chrome/nickel.
>
> --
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak's
> 1997 Solectria Force
> 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While not impossible to modify you would start out at a 1000 pound
disadvantage to a Datsun 1200 model. a 700 pound disadvantage to a VW
Rabbit & simular disadvantage to many lighter cars. I don't know what the
gross vehicle weight is on your vehicle but it will take at least a 120v
pack of flooded batteries to do what you want. It will also put the weight
above many mini trucks which have been used to do this. While not a poor
choice it is a weak choice because of weight. If you got a mini truck and
converted it to lets say 156v you would have a very useful long range(60 ot
80 mile) vehicle. There are limitations at this time if you want long range
and one of them is the ability to carry lots of heavy batteries & still be
able to drive the vehicle normally. To drive normally you need a powerful
controller like the Zilla. You also need moderately high voltage like 120
or more. A 156v Zilla with the right motor & 26 golfcart batteries in the
right vehicle is one place to go. Another way is to use the same hardware,
use your BMW & a pack at 156v of llighter batteries & not have the range you
want but have very good performance. However as fun as this vehicle would
be it won't serve your range needs. However if you figured out how to use
about 500 pounds of Lithium Ion at a reasonable price your problems will be
solved. This is a way's off. 500 pounds at today's technology is about
6800 batteries It might give you 150 to 200 miles range. It is the same
technology as in the Tzero & simular vehicles. It would be costly unless
you have access to a spot welder & a battery management system. This is why
we convert light vehicles with the ability to carry a heavy weight & still
be driveable. Your goal while possible with a heavy pack on level desert
terrain might be impossible in a hilly part of the country & we didn't even
talk about the problems of cold weather on your batteries. Lawrence
Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "jaime A" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 7:58 PM
Subject: RE: Conversions
> Lawrence, thanks for the replies and contact,
>
> Richard, I have a 318ti 1994, it has the E36 BMW frame that was used
between
> 1982 to 1998 (the same one use in these cars
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/type/BMW) the differences are a newer
body,
> breaks and does not have a truck (instead is just a hatchback) which makes
> the car lighter. it therefore wegiths 132 lbs. (60 kg) lighter than other
> 318 models, so its curb weight is 2,734 lbs. (1,240 kg).
>
> I live in Seattle WA, Corvalis seems to be in Oregon, it is about a 5 1/2
> hour drive.
>
> A few questions - for either of the expecters :)
>
> + The cars in the picture look like they still have the radiator in them,
> why is that?
>
> + I can understand the torque difference between a gas and electric engine
> but is it so different that no gears would be needed, so is there a need
to
> remove the gear box or do I just operate in 5th gear?
>
> + How much more expensive would it be to use the cheapest Lithium-ion
> batteries (something like the 18650 LiIon)?
>
> + If I sacrifies length in miles on a full charge (i.e get less miles per
> charge) can I get a motor that will reach higher speed? I say this because
I
> may think of using cheaper baterries now to later upgrade to longer
lasting
> batteries without having to upgrade the motor.
>
> + The final one, how much would it cost to modify my car to EV so that I
can
> drive on the freeway and can do 50 miles or so per charge
>
> Thanks a bunch!
> -Jaime.
>
> >From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >CC: "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Conversions
> >Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 15:21:19 -0700
> >
> >Richard Rau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Richard, Jaime. Richard does
> >conversions in Corvalis. Jaime has a 318 to convert. Richard please
> >advise
> >Jaime. Thanks. Lawrence Rhodes......
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day trial!
> http://www.windowsonecare.com/trial.aspx?sc_cid=msn_hotmail
>
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--- Begin Message ---
What's a good inrush limiter? A resistor and shunting relay contact?
--
Martin K
Lee Hart wrote:
They, and most other power supply manufacturers put in the absolute
minimum amount of inrush limiting they can get away with to save money.
Customers don't notice. If anything fails due to inrush, it will be a
something in the customer's equipment; a fuse, circuit breaker, switch,
connector, etc.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well I'm guessing that it has almost ideal cooling on the inside so the
motor won't overheat easily.
Also it likely runs at fairly high RPM further raising the power density.
--
Martin K
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Wow, this is a compressor that I have not seen yet. Looks like a Denso-Sanden
compressor body with an electric drive in the endcap on the drive end. Frankly
wondering how they fit a powerful enough drive motor in the small space on the
end but looks like it indeed is a self contained-semihermetic unit. Could be
an awesome find. And the price (250) is outstanding. I wonder if it includes
the core charge tho. I have an e-mail in to them as we speak requesting specs
and pricing. David Chapman.
Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Wonder what voltage range it takes:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130019950443
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The "Farnell in one" logo reminded me of the "Newark
in one" logo, so I searched over there. If you go to
www.newark.com and search for newark part number
70C3473, you will find it is a special order item, one
of them for $32.32 each, available in 71 days. The
one with a hole in it (manufacture pn 9710002, newark
pn 02J5720) is $66.34, 89 day lead time. I already
have a pot box, but if I needed one, or was having
problems with one, I'd consider a throttle position
sensor off a fuel injected car. Hmmm, I think I'll
see what the resistance range is of the one on my gas
car, and if it's not too much $, order a spare, and
see about making a mounting bracket for it... but I
don't think the ones in my gas cars have built in
return springs.
- Steven Ciciora
--- Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I like it. Are these available affordably in the US?
> Ordered from them it would be about 4 to 5
> times the price of a good quality 5k pot.
>
> Dave Cover
>
> --- Paul Compton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > You know, there's a reason I don't read this list
> on a regular basis and it
> > has to do with the tendancy of some list members
> to ignore proven off the
> > shelf solutions to simple problems. I've posted
> many times over the years on
> > alternatives to the convenient, but expensive and
> not very reliable Curtis
> > potbox, but almost always been ignored.
> >
> > I'll try again, just in case anybody is listening.
> >
> > If you've got a controller with a 0-5K, or 5-0K,
> or a potentiometer input,
> > then take a look at;
> >
> >
>
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=4246718
> > and
> >
>
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=7006457
> >
> > Automotive rated conductive plastic pots with 'D'
> shaft activation and built
> > in return springs.
> >
> > 5 million full cycles.
> >
> > 10 million 'dither' cycles.
> >
> > Paul Compton
> > www.sciroccoev.co.uk
> > www.bvs.org.uk
> > www.morini-mania.co.uk
> > www.compton.vispa.com/the_named
> >
> >
>
>
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--- End Message ---
