EV Digest 6300
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Selecting a DC/DC to Support and E-Meter/Link 10
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Selecting a DC/DC to Support and E-Meter/Link 10
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Conversion costs never change?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Battery Calculations [JGS-EV]
by "Brandon Kruger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Way, Way, WAY OT: Y'r gonna do WHAT to America?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: draft
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV as backup
by "Brandon Kruger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: broken battery post
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Lisbon Electric Trolley Pictures
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Battery Calculations [JGS-EV]
by "Alan Gideon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) The weather channel website videos
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) EV costs, production, Re: Conversion costs never change?
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) BBS?
by "Brian M. Sutin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) EV costs, production, Re: Conversion costs never change?
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV costs, production, Sunrise
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: BBS?
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: PTC Heater fuse
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Charging EVs from renewables at home (was RE: Electric Rate
Increase Effective January 1
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: BBS?
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Solar Cell prices
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) GVWR limitation for EV conversions
by "Stuart Friedrich and Wendy Lyn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Need Controller. Help!!!
by Joseph Lado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: efficiency comparison - 2 speed gearbox or series/parallel
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Need Controller. Help!!!
by Robert Lemke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Battery Calculations [JGS-EV]
by "Jurgen Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Wind Turbines WAS: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Chancey wrote:
...to install of an E-meter/Link-10... has yet to purchase a DC/DC
to power it.
I recently looked into this very problem, and it has been much discussed
on the EV list.
If he will be using a non-isolated charger, then it is important for the
DC/DC to have a high isolation voltage; 3000 volts or more. It has to
withstand the huge voltage spikes that occur on the AC power line during
thunderstorms and the like.
1. To power the E-meter/Link-10 from the 12v accessory battery: Most
little DC/DCs don't have high isolation. They typically claim 1000v
peak, but that is a one time, one second maximum. The best DC/DC
I found with high isolation is the Powerex VLA106-15242 (about $20
from Newark). It is spec'd at 12-18vdc input (but in fact works
down to 8vdc), 24vdc at 2.4 watts output (fine; the E-meter works
up to 40vdc), and isolation of 2500 vac for 1 minute.
2. To power the E-meter/Link-10 from the propulsion battery: You need
a DC/DC to match your pack voltage. For packs of 120vdc or more,
I'd suggest a small AC switchmode power supply; they are built to
survive on the AC power line. I've used the Astrodyne MSCC-5003,
which is potted and has screw terminals ($80), but there are many.
One common source is an old laptop AC adapter.
If he will be using an ISOLATED charger, then high isolation in the
DC/DC is not necessary. Just about any small isolated DC/DC will do.
1. From the 12v accessory battery, I've used the Datel UST-12/250-D12
9-18vdc input, 15v 3w output, isolation 1000vdc for 1 second ($28).
This is the (somewhat inferior) replacement for the part Cruising
Equipment / Heart Interface sold for the E-meter.
2. From the propulsion pack: Again, almost any small AC switchmode
power supply will work with a DC input.
...a 144 Volt S-10 with no DC/DC. Instead it uses a belt driven
alternator, driven by the drive motor tail shaft. I was skeptical
of the concept, but it does seem to work quite well.
Of course; this is the solution used by all normal cars and trucks!
Crude, but cheap and effective.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Brandt wrote:
An E-Meter, with all the additional stuff comes to about $500...
I designed a Companion board for the E-meter that includes all this
extra "stuff". I just got my first boards last week, and am assembling
them now. If they pass muster, I'll be offering them for sale. I haven't
worked out the price, but it will probably be in the $50 range.
The Companion is a 2" diameter round PC board that mounts to the back of
the E-meter. It has a red wire to go to Pack+, a 3-pin connector to go
to the shunt, a 4-wire connector for an optional temperature sensor and
alarm relay, and a 9-pin D connector which is the isolated serial RS-232
data output and 12v power from your vehicle's accessory battery.
With respect to my comments on DC/DC isolation, the Companion's onboard
DC/DC is *supposed* to have 3000vac of isolation, but I'll find out when
I test it!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Wind Turbine: We have times when there is no wind. Times when we
only have gusts.
You either need batteries or a grid intertie inverter , to save power
when there is wind, and supply power when the wind is not blowing.
Do these wind turbines make any noise?
Small ones are pretty quiet. Even the large ones don't make much noise.
Drive out to a site where they have them and judge for yourself. Don't
let the fearmongers decide for you.
Solar Panels: Is there still a shortage of them? How much for a
120V, 20 amp setup?
The oil companies own most of the solar panel producers, and strangely
enough, they stay expensive and hard to get. :-( But you can still get
them for a small installation. Maybe not the "ideal" ones you want at
"great" price; but ones that are reasonable.
120v at 20amp (peak) is 2400 watts. Present prices for PV panels is
around $6/watt and up, so this is about $14,000 worth (without
installation, inverters, batteries, or other parts). That's a big system!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ryan,
Occasionally there can be a second-hand unit for reduced price,
but it seems that you selected the most powerful and most expensive
parts for your conversion, so I guess that you intend to build
a lightning fast race-car.
Those don't come cheap usually...
Only way to avoid that it is only your money going in there
is to find a sponsor and put his money in there, or at least
strike a deal with the manufacturer or a dealer of the
Hawker batteries, because you are quoting retail prices for
single quantities - I am sure you can get a better price for
those batteries.
Something I am missing is battery regulation.
Your AGMs may be short lived (5000 miles or so) if they are
not regulated to the same SoC - that is the experience with
OEM Hawkers in the US Electricars, as well as my experience
with Chinese-production AGM batteries.
If you were doing a conversion of a family sedan and asked
for prices on a motor (9" or so) and controller (600-800A)
and batteries (below $2000 for 30 kWh AGM) then the total
would be half your bill or less.
I guess "Performance has its Price".
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 11:31 PM
To: EVDL
Subject: Conversion costs never change?
My yet to be bought items:
$4900 * 13" WarP
$4850 * Zilla
$1550 * PFC-20 (minimum, PFC40/50+ likely, 75 even..)
$2250 * Odyssey PC680 (30ct) ($5040 for 60, 2 strings @ 360V total)
---------
$13,550
Will these prices never be any lower?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
I've made a spreadsheet comparing over 100 different batteries. Hope
you can find what you need.
Google viewer (latest updates):
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=p5Q1FF4gnxsiKy0y_uGEbIA
HTML page (updated randomly): http://bmk789.dyndns.org/batteries.html
Happy battery-hunting,
Brandon
On 1/14/07, Jurgen Schmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Are there any experience-based spreadsheets for calculating battery
capacity requirements for a certain target vehicle?
For example, assume a 2500 lb light truck (before batteries), the
probably typical ADC FB1-4001 motor with performance target max 70mph,
50 mile range, sealed lead batteries. Also, when I pull onto the
highway, I want to impress those behind me with the performance of my
clearly labeled electric truck. (I want to give electric the most
positive image possible.)
I would like to plug in different battery configurations and controller
efficiencies to determine the ideal battery weight , voltage, and capacity.
I assume the best case would be too expensive so I would then plug in
prices and "fiddle" with the numbers to achieve a compromise.
I have the books with the ideal and perfect system calculations. I don't
know how to get to some real world formulas that take real world battery
specs and motor specs.
Questions I would like to answer are: How far can I expect to get on 12
D31 Optima Yellowtops with the vehicle outlined above? What happens when
I go to 14 batteries? How about 24 Trojan 6V-AGM? (with more than twice
the battery weight)
Thanks,
Jurgen Schmidt
San Antonio, TX
PS: Please keep the [JGS-EV] in the header of your reply so I can search
for my messages and their replies.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Please do not post your comments about this item. They don't belong on
this list any more than the original post did - so don't compound the error.
Instead, send your comments directly to the original poster, Bill Dube'. The
email address to use is his username, which is the eight letters of his first
and last name (minus the accent mark), spliced to the sld killacycle with the
commercial at sign and the tld com. That is, in this format :
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thanks,
David Roden
Still the EV List Assistant Adminstrator
Getting pretty tired of off-topic threads
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a copy at http://www.geocities.com/hempev/EVCalculator.html
that has had new data added since Uve put up his, but I didn't write
the program, so I have no idea how to impliment the acceleration
output (or any other new equations). If anyone writes a javascript I
can add for that, or to add current load from a dc:dc or accessories,
forward it to me.
> Well, I didn't know about Uve's Calculator.
>
> But I thought my calculator was pretty simple, and
> it's based on Physics.
>
> And I liked the results that it produced.
>
> If you have the links to other calculators that would
> be great!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
AC propulsion's controller is capable of a bi-directional grid
interface which can deliver AC power to a grid or house. To my
knowledge, it hasn't been implemented anywhere.
Brandon
On 1/13/07, Nikki Bloomfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Interesting... The ac propulsion 150 has a ups function, doesn't it?
Cold temps??? I'm visiting folks in Fairfax, VA and I've been walking around
with no coat! Guess it's time for me to watch the weather chanel!
Nikki
-----Original Message-----
From: "JS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [email protected]
Sent: 13/01/07 13:21
Subject: EV as backup
While much of the country is suffering from Arctic Air,
and many are without power for extended lengths of time
I think this is an opportunity to advocate the EV for its
back-up capability.
My natural gas central heating blower uses about 600 watts.
I can power the house - with minimal conservation - at less
than a kilowatt.
By splitting my EV battery pack in half (16 Trojan T105)
I can parallel them with my 48 volt solar system (also 16 T105)
This gives me over 800 AmpHours. Drawing 20 amps
(about 1 KW) I have about a 40 hour capability,
20 hours from the EV alone. (A very conservative estimate!)
With bright sunny skies I could probably supply my 2 neighbors.
We would all stay warm, and could even watch TV.
Of course I would have to park my EV and see if the gas guzzler
still runs. Maybe my neighbors would give me their generator's
gas in exchange for free electricity.
John, in Sylmar CA PV EV
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From my experience Roland is being cautious & this is important. However
Jim at American Battery in Hayward has fixed a few of my battery posts. He
did not discharge the battery. He did open all the vents and torched them
quickly. I can't remember if he replaced the caps. He then put a new post
on the old one he cut off to a nub. He then melted old post material into
the post and it was like new. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: broken battery post
> Hello Fred,
>
> The best way, is to remove the battery and take it to a battery shop, that
> can mold on a new post. I did not have access to someone that did this,
so
> I bought my own post molds or you can have one made by a machine shop.
>
> When doing any battery repair in this matter, DISCHARGE THE BATTERY TO
ABOUT
> 60% AND LET IT SET ABOUT 2 DAYS WITH THE CAPS LOOSEN OR OFF to remove any
> venting gas.
>
> Use one of those mini-touches, that have a long thin flame tip using a
very
> hot gas. Pick up pure lead from a fishing gear store, that have it on
> rolls.
>
> I order my post molds, so while I was waiting, I tried something
different.
> I went to my local auto parts store, and pick up one of those lead post
that
> can screw on to side post batteries. Some of these have a hex bottom
which
> you can use a wrench on.
>
> Drill down into the center of the post with a 1/4 inch bit with a spacer
> place on the bit, so you do not go all the way threw. I found on my
> batteries, I could go 3/4 inch deep. If you are on one of those offset
> pads, then its about 1/2 inch deep.
>
> Now tap this hold with a 5/16 NC thread taper set, starting out with a
taper
> and then finish with a bottom tap.
>
> Clean the top of the battery post and the bottom and edge of the new post.
> Screw this post on and tighten it.
>
> Cover the top of the battery with layers of very wet paper towels letting
> the post stick up. Pack the wet paper towels around the base of the post
to
> provide a heat sink.
>
> If you have battery filler caps on this battery, then remove them, and
> install wet roll up paper towels into the battery filler necks very tight.
> Make sure they do not touch the electrolyte.
>
> Using the pure lead and mini torch, you then apply a lead weld bead in the
> gap between the battery post and post you are installing. You may have to
> file a V or gap around the base of the post before installing it on the
> battery.
>
> To prevent from solder from rolling on to the battery top, this is what
the
> wet paper towels are use for. Keep wetting the towels as you work with
> leading on a post.
>
> You can add a barrier around the base of the post, by cutting a 1/4
section
> out of a 3/4 inch pipe coupler, the one that is about 7/8 to 1 inch inside
> diameter. Pre tin this copper ring and install it around the bottom of
the
> battery post. Put some down pressure on this ring with a metal weight, so
> it will not float or move and make a good seal.
>
> Adjust the mini-torch to a very long thin flame and start to melt the post
> lead and at the same time the end of the lead stick. The molten lead will
> then drip on to a molten lead of the post.
>
> You travel in the direction of the frame point. This allows the flame to
> melt new lead its it path. Do not melt the lead going backward or you
will
> applying too much heat on the new lead you are applying and it will pile
it
> up to high.
>
> After making one pass, and the lead bead looks too rough, then just flame
it
> again without adding any lead this time. If there is a low spot, then you
> can touch up the spot with lead at that time.
>
> If you are using a stud connector and want to use one again, You can get a
> lead repair post from a auto parts store, that does not have a stud in it,
> so it can screw onto a side post battery. These can be use on stud type
> battery that has not post.
>
> In your case you do not have the stud now, so all you have to do is tap
the
> battery post as we did before, but with this post, you drill all the way
> through the top of the post and install a long stainless steel threaded
rod
> that goes all the way through the post you are going to install and screw
it
> into the battery and weld it on.
>
> I have one battery that I had install one of these post to on one of these
> offset lead pads about 4 years ago and is still going. I only use a
battery
> clamp ring, and not the top stud. The top stop type of connection will
work
> loose, mushroom posts and sometimes twist off posts.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fred Hartsell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 10:20 AM
> Subject: broken battery post
>
>
> > I am using Interstate U2200 6 volt batteries in my EV. I noticed that
one
> > of the posts seemed loose today when I inspected the batteries for
water.
> > When I test the connection I found that part of the battery post was
> > broken.
> > Is there any way to fix this without replacing the battery? These
> > batteries
> > are less than one year old. I was using the stud part of the post to
> > connect the cable to. The only thing left now is a flat portion of the
> > post
> > that goes down into the batteries. Any advice or suggestion would be
> > appreciated.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks, Fred
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
Trolley17.jpg (the close-up of the yellow box to validate tickets)
says 2006-11-05 09:55 which is universally accepted as Nov 5, 2006
five minutes to ten AM (PM would be indicated as 21:55).
(only in the USA is the numeric date format a confusing mix, because
it neither decends nor ascends in magnitude, all other countries
use either year-month-day (universally accepted) or day-month-year.
how come the month is so important that we put it before the day
and year?
Nice trolleys, you still see them in many capitals and some main
cities around Europe. I know them from Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Delft,
The Hague and Utrecht, to name 5 cities in The Netherlands that
I experienced the trams. Not all were original, the trams in
Utrecht, stretching into nearby cities like Nieuwegein, IJsselstein
and Houten, are all newly built. 25 years ago Nieuwegein did not
even exist.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Rush
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 7:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lisbon Electric Trolley Pictures
Bill wrote -
> Ten bonus points for anyone that can
> figure out the time and date we were on the trolley from looking at
> the pictures. :-)
>
>From "Trolley12.jpg", it looks like 2006-11-05 09:51, or as we say it May
11th, 2006, at 9:51am. Couldn't make out the script under the time/date.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
www.Airphibian.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you very much. This is exactly the stage my project is at. Timing,
as they say, is everything.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brandon Kruger
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 6:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Battery Calculations [JGS-EV]
Hello,
I've made a spreadsheet comparing over 100 different batteries. Hope
you can find what you need.
Google viewer (latest updates):
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=p5Q1FF4gnxsiKy0y_uGEbIA
HTML page (updated randomly): http://bmk789.dyndns.org/batteries.html
Happy battery-hunting,
Brandon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Weather Channel 'The Climate Code' was not available
this afternoon as they have continuous coverage of the
Winter Blitz. So I loaded
http://climate.weather.com/
and found about 80 short videos worth watching.
Each is preceded by a Toyota hybrid commercial,
which probably explains why they have
never shown any concern for my many e-mails
about electric vehicles.
Maybe one person cannot make a difference,
but with a little help from my EV friends
we might get them to acknowledge the EVs existence.
John in Sylmar, CA PV EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jeff, Ryan and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Conversion costs never change?
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 14:23:35 -0800
> I think looking for reduced cost in EV conversions is
>possible but not in the DC EV conversions. Though once the
>economy way to convert, I fear that it doesn't lend itself
>to that next step of mass production for economies of
>scale.
I don't agree until AC can be bought at a reasonable
price as DC is 1/3 for the same power. Not that it can't be
done, just no one has yet. Another in my long line of
projects is to build a BLDC and controller that uses under
120vdc batt pack, they are just not that hard to build, just
takes time and money.
>
>Perhaps it will work this way...
><dreammode>
> The price on lithium-ion or lithium polymer drops to
>the point where 8K gets you a 25KWh pack that weights
>500lbs
I expect that within 3 yrs as more plants that make
the materials come online. But if you design your glider
correctly, lead batts get you over 100 mile range now
without expensive batts, and cheaper EV drives. We just need
more made for EV gliders!!!
> New methods of construction in cars get you a 4 door
>glider that weighs 1000lbs
The Sunrise does that already and more EV'ers should
help support Lee Hart to get it done faster so those who
want excellent EV's on 4 wheels, 4 passenger will have
something available.
> Higher voltage and lower current motors and controllers
>means lighter motors, lighter wires.
But also mean higher cost controllers, battery
strings, BMS, chargers, contactors, DC/DC, ect. An Eff EV
will have plenty of power at 120vdc battery pack. And eff
EV's are they only ones that will survive in the market
place, either high end or low because eff drives cost, the
less eff, more batts, ect.
> Standardization of interfaces allows many manufacturers
>to make compatible components, makeing them a commodity.
A good idea and I'm, others are working on that.
>
> Now 25Kwh may actually get you 150mile range.
></dreammode>
If a useable 25kw would get the Sunrise around a 200
mile range which proves just how important good EV gliders
are. For those who don't know the Sunrise EV, it has the
record 377 mile range with NiMH batts, and did Boston-NYC on
one charge for a 4 passenger sedan. Li-ion will be
better/lb!!
>
>The first might happen on it's own, unless the current
>comodidyness of batteries is destroyed by Automotive
>company proritization.
Not likely as they are driven by the computer market
and outside the US mostly which will make it happen anyway.
The second is not likely with the
>current US Auto Manufactures,
They seems to still be going heavier!! And so are the
Asians!!
Maybe Lotus? New materials
>and processing techniques have made this plausible,
Lotus made an all composite monocoque Elan I think
back in the 70's? And their Elise twins when they came out
as show cars, one EV, the other ICE and the EV was faster!!!
It will be a small builder like them of smaller to break
into EV's.
Though everyone here has ignored the recent court
ruling in favor of Cal and 10 other states to get EV's, 2%
of production by 2009, which may force the big 6 auto
companies to make EV's again.
They
>are working now on a 60Ghz wireless home network for
>realtime transmitting of Hi-def Video in uncompressed form,
>for the general consumer.
>
>The last one is the clincher. WE need someone to step up to
>the plate and start a modern Automotive industry modeled
>more like the computer industry than the existing auto
>industry. Anyone how knows the internals of the intel line
>of processors when compared to the Mac or even the Sparc
>for that matter can attest to the open standards being
>adopted as being a greater driving force that the
>attributes of the technology. (Please, no PC vs Mac vs SUN
>or Windows vs Linux flame wars intended)
There is not a chance in hell big auto will do that.
I will though as will Lee and others have contacted
me about EV companies supplying each other to ramp up
production quanities sharing glider, EV parts, ect. ;^D
>
>I Promise that if I win the lottery or can find the
>investors, I will do that! I need less money than GM is
>asking for Battery resarch alone :-)
> Ryan wrote,
>My yet to be bought items:
>
>$4900 * 13" WarP
>$4850 * Zilla
>$1550 * PFC-20 (minimum, PFC40/50+ likely, 75 even..)
>$2250 * Odyssey PC680 (30ct) ($5040 for 60, 2 strings @
>360V total) ---------
>$13,550
>
>Will these prices never be any lower?
When people buy reasonable EV parts for reasonable
EV's!!
You want mega power, 600kw of controller which equals
more hp than is available on any mass produced car and now
you want it cheap?
And just what are you putting it in? Why? If racing,
you have to pay to play. If anything else, it's overkill.
If you want to save money then you are doing it
completely wrong.
Jerry Dycus
>
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--- Begin Message ---
> This listserv really should be changed over to a BBS. I think I'm gonna
> opt out given the volume to topic ratio without any way to categorize
> the topics.
I agree. In fact, I would be happy to create to create a domain and put
up a forum, which would take a few days at most and cost nothing. On the
other hand, I suspect that many of the people who read this won't switch
over, and the only result would be to dilute the community. Unless the
list mavens promised to pull the plug on the list once the forum were in
place, creating a forum isn't really very productive.
As a suggestion, Switch to digest mode. That's only 1-3 emails a day.
Brian
--
Brian M. Sutin, Ph.D. Space System Engineering and Optical Design
Skewray Research/316 W Green St/Claremont CA 91711 USA/(909) 621-3122
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--- Begin Message ---
Have to agree with Jer on that: unless you have a need for hundreds of
kw's of peak power, a more run-of-the-mill controller and motor
combination is enough for most applications, and more accessible on
the second-hand or surplus market.
> > Ryan wrote,
> >My yet to be bought items:
> >
> >$4900 * 13" WarP
> >$4850 * Zilla
> >$1550 * PFC-20 (minimum, PFC40/50+ likely, 75 even..)
> >$2250 * Odyssey PC680 (30ct) ($5040 for 60, 2 strings @
> >360V total) ---------
> >$13,550
> >
> >Will these prices never be any lower?
>
> When people buy reasonable EV parts for reasonable
> EV's!!
> You want mega power, 600kw of controller which equals
> more hp than is available on any mass produced car and now
> you want it cheap?
> And just what are you putting it in? Why? If racing,
> you have to pay to play. If anything else, it's overkill.
> If you want to save money then you are doing it
> completely wrong.
>
> Jerry Dycus
>
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > New methods of construction in cars get you a 4 door
> > glider that weighs 1000lbs
>
> Jerry Dycus wrote:
> The Sunrise does that already and more EV'ers should
> help support Lee Hart to get it done faster so those who
> want excellent EV's on 4 wheels, 4 passenger will have
> something available.
I like the Sunrise. What is there to do, in order to help? Lee?
> Jerry Dycus wrote:
> When people buy reasonable EV parts for reasonable
> EV's!!
> You want mega power, 600kw of controller which equals
> more hp than is available on any mass produced car and now
> you want it cheap?
> And just what are you putting it in? Why? If racing,
> you have to pay to play. If anything else, it's overkill.
> If you want to save money then you are doing it
> completely wrong.
Agreed!
- Arthur
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--- Begin Message ---
At 05:50 PM 1/14/2007, Brian M. Sutin wrote:
> This listserv really should be changed over to a BBS. I think I'm gonna
> opt out given the volume to topic ratio without any way to categorize
> the topics.
I agree. In fact, I would be happy to create to create a domain and put
up a forum, which would take a few days at most and cost nothing. On the
other hand, I suspect that many of the people who read this won't switch
over, and the only result would be to dilute the community. Unless the
You got it.
Lets see, I can have an Email list that comes to me as it happens,
OR a web forum that is slow, requires me to explicitly check things,
and will end up cluttered with lots of cute icons.
Which do you think I (and many others) would prefer?
Hint: Time is Precious
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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--- Begin Message ---
At 01:49 PM 14/01/07 -0600, Lee Hart wrote:
No, the ceramic heaters don't work as thermoelectric generators. There are
some small thermoelectric effects, but only what you get when any two
dissimilar metals are in contact and there is a temperature difference
between them.
But is there enough thermocouple effect to throw a DMM for a doozy? (being
lazy here, as I'd need to find the spare ceramic elements that I've got
stashed away to do my own measurements).
Regards
[Technik] James
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--- Begin Message ---
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> I doubt that increased demand would make these products significantly
>> cheaper.
>
> Sure it would! There is very little that is all that special about wind
> generators. Mass production could have a dramatic effect on their prices.
Well that was sort of my point, there is nothing special about wind
turbines which is why they are currently fairly cheap. For just the
turbine (generator and blades) small ones can be bought for about $1 a
watt and large ones can be found for 1/2 of that.
However, the turbine itself is only a small part of the total
installation. The other parts (regulators, tower, batteries, wire, etc.)
are already mass produced so are unlikely to get any cheaper.
Even if you cut the price of the turbine in 1/2, it won't make a large
difference in the total installation cost.
Solar cells are already mass produced, so all we are talking about is
producing them in large mass produced quantities. I don't see that making
a significant reduction in their price.
If you shop around, you can buy complete panels for under $4 a watt in
quantity, perhaps a bit more if you pay for delivery.
I've bought small panels for as little $2.60 a watt new, delivered.
>
> f supply and demand is allowed to work, and really large quantities of
> a product get built, its price tends to fall to slightly over the cost
> of its raw materials. Both windmills and PV panels tend to use
> relatively small quantities of inexpensive materials; so I think there
> is real hope.
>
> PV panels are built with semicondutors, which are basically refined
> dirt. The amorphous ones have a lot of room for cost reductions from
> mass production (the 'holy grail' is to figure out how to make solar
> shingles cheaply). The polycrystalline ones work better but cost more to
> make. The monocrystalline ones are using recycled wafers from the
> semiconductor industry, but that's an erratic source of supply.
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
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--- Begin Message ---
EVMechanic.net created; php BBS being configured, I hope to have
something functional the first of the week. "... I suspect that many of
the people who read this won't switch ..." , I don't specifically care
if they immediately switch or not, just that there is participation.
Eventually a community will evolve if there is interest. A message
after yours states a concern of messaging, that is solved by simply
subscribing to specific forums and there can be an email notification.
Slow??? only if your internet connection is slow, but then again you'd
know that if your downloading 57+ email messages at a time anyway. Some
arguments against a BBS are simply not valid. Pull the plug on the
listserv ... not necessary, in fact it would be a hand augmentation to
the BBS.
Continuing with "just" a listserv is limiting foresight and hindering
hindsight, it's like using lead acid when there's lithium, metal halide
and other sources of power available that are simply more efficient
(abet the cost argument ... but what is our motivation for doing this
anyway??).
Either way, the domain is registered, host setup, php package picked,
as soon as the graphics are minimized it'll be up and running. Anyone
wanting to help, shoot me an email off list. To make things interesting
and consolidate the digging us nuboobies have to endure, I think I'll
add an advertisers section for a compilation of advertiser links ... and
do the same for all those fantastic individual sites, audio and video.
I've already found several RSS feeds that look interesting. Potential
enduser feedback in building the site is appreciated.
Brian M. Sutin wrote:
This listserv really should be changed over to a BBS. I think I'm gonna
opt out given the volume to topic ratio without any way to categorize
the topics.
I agree. In fact, I would be happy to create to create a domain and put
up a forum, which would take a few days at most and cost nothing. On the
other hand, I suspect that many of the people who read this won't switch
over, and the only result would be to dilute the community. Unless the
list mavens promised to pull the plug on the list once the forum were in
place, creating a forum isn't really very productive.
As a suggestion, Switch to digest mode. That's only 1-3 emails a day.
Brian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Solar cells are already mass produced, so all we are talking about is
producing them in large mass produced quantities. I don't see that making
a significant reduction in their price."
http://www.nanosolar.com/
Promises a "significant" reduction in prices.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is my first post and I'd like to first of all thank the members of this
list for a great information resource. I've been reading past
posts/archives for a few months now to learn what I can about doing an EV
conversion. I've done some planning and calculations for an EV conversion
and can't seem to get past the issue of getting a reasonable range in the
type of vehicle I would like. My budget is $30-35K.
Here is my need list:
- seating capacity for 4 adults (jump seats in pickups don't qualify)
- a range of 100 km (~60 miles)
- safety / insurance / licensing issues:
- final conversion must not exceeding the original GVWR of the
vehicle, including 4 adults (~600 lbs)
- the vehicle's body (including unibody) can not be altered (e.g. for
locating batteries)
Here is my want list:
- I want to be able to demonstrate that EVs can have better acceleration
performance than ICE vehicles (but don't care about top speed)
- all wheel drive
What is killing me on my calculations is the GVWR restriction, assuming use
of AGM lead acid batteries to get reasonable performance. Here's an
example:
A 2002 Chevy S-10 CrewCab has a GVWR of 5150 lbs, and payload of 1100 lbs.
Since the payload has to include passengers the removal of the ICE roughly
balances the passenger weight, which means you have 1100 lbs to use for
batteries, motors, etc. Assuming even using all of this for say optima YT
batteries @ 43 lbs each, gives me 25 batteries. This would provide 16.5 kWh
of energy, which assuming 300 wh/mile and even 100% DOD would not give the
needed range.
Moving up to a full size pickup like say a F150 crewcab which has a legal
payload of 1600 lbs to try to increase battery capacity still does not give
the required range, especially considering the likely increased wh/mile
consumption.
Moving down in size, I don't know of any cars that have a high enough GVWR
and low curb weight (again this must be the legal GVWR).
I spent some time reading about the Saft/BB600 NiCds to improve the
energy/weight issue, but from what I've read these batteries can not
reliably handle currents above 250A, and have availability issues. Spending
20K on a lithium pack does not seem reasonable if you would only get 1000
charge/discharge cycles, and does not leave much budget for the rest of the
conversion.
Is a conversion with my limitations possible? I'd appreciate any comments.
Thanks
_________________________________________________________________
Share your opinion and enter to win! Please complete this survey to enter
into a draw for a grand prize of $500 or one of twenty $50 cash prizes.
http://www.youthographyinsiders.com/R.aspx?a=116
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--- Begin Message ---
I need help finding a Curtis 1221B controller.
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--- Begin Message ---
> > The ER3 made the top of Pikes Peak without a problem.
> > http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/pikes_peak_ER3.html
wheelbase and track dimensions in meters is wrong on this page
what about charging time of 30 minutes only ? how is that done ?
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
This site will have it at 1/2 the normal price
http://www.logisystemscontrollers.com/index.html
Bob
Joseph Lado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I need help finding a Curtis 1221B controller.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, that's a great start.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: Electric Rate Increase Effective January 1
> Ryan Stotts wrote:
> > Wind Turbine: We have times when there is no wind. Times when we
> > only have gusts.
>
> You either need batteries or a grid intertie inverter , to save power
> when there is wind, and supply power when the wind is not blowing.
>
> > Do these wind turbines make any noise?
> Hi EVerybody;
On my several Portland Pilgrimages, driving across the country, when I
saw a Windfarm, would stop and check it out, with video cam. One Great One
was in Oklahoma, about 100 or more scattered across the endless prerie. They
are visable for MILES as ya drive from Albequirky to OK City, the major
Interstate, whatever. I pulled off and drove into the farmer's fields,
nobody cared, or was around, and this was AFTER 911! Tne of the things that
impresses ya is the Titanic size of these things!You can drive right up to
the base, park yur Prius, and sniff around. They stand probably 200 foot
high? Turn at a dead silent about 15 RPM, if birds crash into the blades it
is their stupidity, Darwin's Law applies here!Sorta like people that walk on
RR trax, and get trained. At the base is one of those above ground
transformer boxes, thing 4 fridges strapped together, size wise.This is the
biggest "Noise" out there, they hum happily, probably don't know the
words,That is IT! These are a great Eye Candy thing, something majestic
about the blades silently turning. Put one on MY backyard if ya like!
I drove around to the support/office bldg, barged in and they showed me
around. It was owned by Florida Power Co, a bit far from home, but FPC is in
the wind biz, big time!So if you are motoring Out West see a Farm, stop by,
I was never turned away! If ya show an interest, the good folks there will
show ya around. Stuff like this is why I do that trip across the country,
EVery year. EBVer been down in a coal mine, Hydro Electric plant, AC
Propulsion, Phoenix Motors.....Tresla's on my "Hit" list next year.Not to
mention you Listers I have hit before on my travels.
Seeya at BBB?
Bob
> Small ones are pretty quiet. Even the large ones don't make much noise.
> Drive out to a site where they have them and judge for yourself. Don't
> let the fearmongers decide for you.
> Yeah! We have the Mass. Blowhard, Sen. Teddy Kennedy, fighting them on
coastal MA. Sez they mess up their views!
> > Solar Panels: Is there still a shortage of them? How much for a
> > 120V, 20 amp setup?
>
> The oil companies own most of the solar panel producers, and strangely
> enough, they stay expensive and hard to get. :-( But you can still get
> them for a small installation. Maybe not the "ideal" ones you want at
> "great" price; but ones that are reasonable.
>
> 120v at 20amp (peak) is 2400 watts. Present prices for PV panels is
> around $6/watt and up, so this is about $14,000 worth (without
> installation, inverters, batteries, or other parts). That's a big system!
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/625 - Release Date: 1/13/07
>
>
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