EV Digest 6475
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: [electric_vehicles_for_sale] (fwd) VECTRIX Demo Bike Now Available For
Te...
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Please get us some more cars to plug in!
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) axles (was: RE: Speaking of Hybrids)
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Alternative transportation & energy in the White House
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Tango lane splitting
by "James Allgood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: generator
by Kevin Lura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: axles (was: RE: Speaking of Hybrids)
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Regenerative suspension
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: generator
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Tango lane splitting
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Please get us some more cars to plug in!
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: contactor controllers
by Tom Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Zilla for the newbie
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Nicad update
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Zilla for the newbie?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Nicad mixing
by Tom Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Breaker mounting
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
by xx xx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Zilla for the newbie?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: [electric_vehicles_for_sale] (fwd) VECTRIX Demo Bike Now Available For
Te...
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
11:05 PM EST
Hi Charles,
Thanks for the schedule update and link, the news is encouraging. It would
be great to hear from those closer to the action, about the most recent
status.
I met James and other fine folk from Vectrix and saw the bikes when I was
exhibiting my PHEV Prius project next to them at AltWheels in Boston last
September. After the show, I made the detour to New Bedford to visit their
engineering/design facility and pilot manufacturing plant before returning
home to Montreal (at about 2:00 A.M., late, but it was worth it). I was
suitably impressed. I am looking forward to their success in launching in
London and Rome and hope that within a year after that the Vectrix will be
available over here.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: [electric_vehicles_for_sale] (fwd) VECTRIX Demo Bike Now
Available For Te...
Hi Doug,
Last I heard first deliveries were supposed to start sometime in March in
London and Rome. The full list of UK dealers can be found here:
www.vectrix.com/ContentResources/3/165575628/1/172_January2007.pdf
Maybe one of our listers in the London area could give those three London
dealers a call to check on the status and then report back to the list?
Charles Whalen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I could not see the plug in the right position, but the description
of 13A, 240V sounds like the household 3-prong UK outlet BS 1363 see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_AC_power_plugs_and_sockets
type G
Note that the plug (!) has a fuse inside (13A).
More common in the rest of Europe is the round socket that is shown
with the Europlug CEE 7/16 with two pins
and CEE 7/4 with two pins and grounding through two "side clips",
also called "Schuko" plug.
The blue socket and plug on the right is a standard industrial
IEC 60309 plug with either 3 or 4 prongs (single or 3-phase) and
the color tells you the voltage range. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_and_multiphase_power_plugs_and_socke
ts
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of bruce parmenter
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 7:04 PM
To: evlist
Subject: Re: Please get us some more cars to plug in!
Hi Nikki,
On
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/402211445/in/photostream/
it states there are two 240VAC power sources: 13 and 16 amp.
I assume UK electrical code also limits the AC load to 80% of the
outlet/breaker's rating. So a 13amp outlet is allowed a 10.5amp draw or
2.5kW source, and a 16amp outlet is allowed a 15amp draw or a 3kW source.
Are these common outlets one may find in a household or at a company's
parking garage?
Similar outlets in the U.S. would be a 6-15 (12 amp draw) or 6-20 (16amp
draw). But the AC voltage could be from 208 to 240.
Usually it is 208VAC at public EV charging locations. So the source power
would be 2.5kW and 3.3kW respectively.
It looks like the UK codes do not force an AVCON or inductive charging unit
be installed at public EV charging locations (I am envious).
Please POST what these outlets are and glad public EV charging is got a good
beginning in the UK.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________
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Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > it shows the half-shafts with a separate axle, so to
> > shorten them, you can just cut and respline one end
> > of the axle, no welding etc needed.
> The axles are hardened, so you can't cut new splines without
> annealing them, machining, and then re-hardening them.
Not true. You can't roll splines on a hardened axle, but you can mill
them with the right cutter. In any case, annealing them would require
re-hardening, and probably blows the budget.
Short-run 100-piece or so axles aren't that costly, but you may be
looking for smaller runs with cheaper prices... difficult to do unless
you can leverage an existing product that has large-run prices and
engage a vendor far enough up in the chain of distribution that there's
not too many margins stacked up on the product before you get your hands
on it... There is a variety of pre-made axles for VW-based sand cars, if
you can work with the common 28- and 33-spline counts, there is a an
incredible assortment of available shaft lengths, splined flanges,
joints, and etc. Sway-Away is just one of many vendors:
http://www.swayaway.com/VW_Components.htm#VW5
AFCO Racing may have a solution that works well for Ford 8.8 or 9-inch
center chunks... what are the spline, length, and bearing requirements
you need.
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 25 Feb 2007 at 7:08, Dave Cover wrote:
> And let's not forget what happened to the PV panels on the roof of the White
> House ...
This is off topic for the list and I'd be breaking my own guidelines to
respond, but for the fact that there IS some (at least nominal) EV content
below.
First, the PVs removed from the WH in the early 1980s weren't just junked,
they were given an appreciative home - I believe they were donated to a
university. (I suppose it's too much to hope that they used them in a solar
EV project. ;-)
Second, I read recently that the White House *does* have both PV and solar
water heating, though I don't know how much capacity they provide. The
systems were installed a few years ago, I believe during the first term of
the current occupant.
Third, if we can just get the WH to apply some of that energy they're
producing in BEVs and PHEVs for their motorcades and local transportation,
we'll have something which would be a real boost for EVs. I can see it now -
"AC in DC." ;-)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Lane splitting is illegal in all 50 states, so Tango cannot "split" lanes,
ie. straddle the lane boundry, anywhere in the US, just like motorcycles.
You will be cited for unsafe lane change or straddling if the cop can catch
you. It should be able to lane share, but only if it stays within one lane,
and only changes lanes every 100ft, just like a motorcycle. For more than 7
years, every day, rain or shine, I split and share lanes and can tell you
with two wheels I can stay legal about 80-90% of the time. With 4 wheels it
would be nearly impossible not to straddle. Motorcycles are allowed to drive
abreast in 42 states, but only California has no law prohibiting motorcycles
to share a lane with a car. I am a big proponent of lanesharing and the
positive effect on reducing congestion, but from what I have seen of the
width I would not share lanes in the Tango. But I would love to watch one
try. Just keep an eye on your six and let faster splitters go by.
Take a look what motorcyclist have to say about this very topic:
http://bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=186134
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV list" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 8:16 PM
Subject: Re: Tango lane splitting
From: Bruce
I wonder if it is really legal for Tangos to drive two abreast?
I got this answer from Rick Woodbury of Commuter Cars Inc.
According to testimony given at a Senate Transportation Committee
Hearing in WA state by a captain of the WA State Patrol, it is legal for
2 Tango to share a lane, but not overtake in a lane.
In CA all 30 traffic officers who were asked, mostly CHP, unanimously
stated that they would not ticket Tangos for lane splitting. Lane
sharing is certainly not a problem.
Rick Woodbury Phone: (509) 624-0762
President, Commuter Cars Corporation Toll-free: (800) 468-0944
Doubling the capacity of freeways Fax: (509) 624-1466
Quadrupling the capacity of parking Cellular: (509) 979-1815
Zero to 60 in under 4 seconds
715 E. Sprague Ave., Suite 70 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Spokane, WA 99202 Web: http://www.commutercars.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Any info on this generator or similar?
Also, any info on your 48v metro?
--- jmygann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You stated about generators ..
>
> "I'm doing 5kw, 100lb ones on order for sale at
> $1600 for the Freedom EV if anyone wants one, 48vdc to
> 120vdc nom, e mail me offlist.
>
> I would like some info for my 48 volt Metro
>
> Jimmy
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.moserengineering.com/Pages/Shop-Services/shopservices.html
Moser Engineering resplines OEM and aftermarket axles, custom shafts, 4
wheel drive axle shafts, transmission shafts, and clutch input/output
shafts.
We can cold spline almost any shaft up to 60 Rockwell in hardness that
has enough material to cut full depth splines. Our machining
capabilities include shafts up to 3" in diameter and lengths up to 48".
All resplining is done cold so no annealing or heat treatment is required.
Single Axle
$65 each
Randy Burleson wrote:
it shows the half-shafts with a separate axle, so to
shorten them, you can just cut and respline one end
of the axle, no welding etc needed.
The axles are hardened, so you can't cut new splines without
annealing them, machining, and then re-hardening them.
Not true. You can't roll splines on a hardened axle, but you can mill
them with the right cutter. In any case, annealing them would require
re-hardening, and probably blows the budget.
Short-run 100-piece or so axles aren't that costly, but you may be
looking for smaller runs with cheaper prices... difficult to do unless
you can leverage an existing product that has large-run prices and
engage a vendor far enough up in the chain of distribution that there's
not too many margins stacked up on the product before you get your hands
on it... There is a variety of pre-made axles for VW-based sand cars, if
you can work with the common 28- and 33-spline counts, there is a an
incredible assortment of available shaft lengths, splined flanges,
joints, and etc. Sway-Away is just one of many vendors:
http://www.swayaway.com/VW_Components.htm#VW5
AFCO Racing may have a solution that works well for Ford 8.8 or 9-inch
center chunks... what are the spline, length, and bearing requirements
you need.
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 25 Feb 2007 at 0:22, Michael Perry wrote:
> Toyota had a high performance mode in some of their cars (push the button and
> engine/tranny were changed to a different mode) and the same could follow for
> the electric shock.
Interesting thoughts, but I think you need a different name for this gadget.
"Electric shock" carries some undesirable connotations. FWIW, I think
they're called "dampers" in the UK.
I'm only half kidding. "Electric shock" might be roughly equivalent to
naming a car the "Impact."
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Kevin and All,
Please e mail me off list on the DC gen as
it's been discribed many times here before though I'm now
ready to produce them and marginally on topic for the list.
It's a high tech ICE gas motor with a cont
duty DC generator custom built to handle such loads with
remote start, shutdown and weighs about 100 lbs. It's about
time someone started building these, mounted in the rear,
trailer hitch or on the bumper, can make EV's more
flexable.
Would like to hear more on Jimmy's Metro as
it sounds like a good, inexpensive EV.
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Kevin Lura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: generator
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 23:28:12 -0800 (PST)
>Any info on this generator or similar?
>
>Also, any info on your 48v metro?
>
>
>--- jmygann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> You stated about generators ..
>>
>> "I'm doing 5kw, 100lb ones on order for sale at
>> $1600 for the Freedom EV if anyone wants one, 48vdc to
>> 120vdc nom, e mail me offlist.
>>
>> I would like some info for my 48 volt Metro
>>
>> Jimmy
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>___________________________________________________________
>_________________________ Do you Yahoo!?
>Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
>http://new.mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Frankly I see motorcycles lane split in la all the time. They are not
lane sharing.
It is unfortunately and burden on others and a hazard.
It also rasies insuranc erates and lawsuits as riders who take a
dangerous lane split inevitably sue the poor auto driver who doesn't see
them passing from behind with two inches to spare and unknowingly close
the gap and are invovled in an accident.
Sorry but I am for a separate lane but lane sharing is ridiculous and
dangerous.
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:18 pm, James Allgood wrote:
Lane splitting is illegal in all 50 states, so Tango cannot "split"
lanes, ie. straddle the lane boundry, anywhere in the US, just like
motorcycles. You will be cited for unsafe lane change or straddling if
the cop can catch you. It should be able to lane share, but only if it
stays within one lane, and only changes lanes every 100ft, just like a
motorcycle. For more than 7 years, every day, rain or shine, I split
and share lanes and can tell you with two wheels I can stay legal about
80-90% of the time. With 4 wheels it would be nearly impossible not to
straddle. Motorcycles are allowed to drive abreast in 42 states, but
only California has no law prohibiting motorcycles to share a lane with
a car. I am a big proponent of lanesharing and the positive effect on
reducing congestion, but from what I have seen of the width I would not
share lanes in the Tango. But I would love to watch one try. Just keep
an eye on your six and let faster splitters go by.
Take a look what motorcyclist have to say about this very topic:
http://bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=186134
----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV list" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 8:16 PM
Subject: Re: Tango lane splitting
From: Bruce
I wonder if it is really legal for Tangos to drive two abreast?
I got this answer from Rick Woodbury of Commuter Cars Inc.
According to testimony given at a Senate Transportation Committee
Hearing in WA state by a captain of the WA State Patrol, it is legal
for
2 Tango to share a lane, but not overtake in a lane.
In CA all 30 traffic officers who were asked, mostly CHP, unanimously
stated that they would not ticket Tangos for lane splitting. Lane
sharing is certainly not a problem.
Rick Woodbury Phone: (509) 624-0762
President, Commuter Cars Corporation Toll-free: (800) 468-0944
Doubling the capacity of freeways Fax: (509) 624-1466
Quadrupling the capacity of parking Cellular: (509) 979-1815
Zero to 60 in under 4 seconds
715 E. Sprague Ave., Suite 70 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Spokane, WA 99202 Web: http://www.commutercars.com
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2/26/07, bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Nikki,
On
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/402211445/in/photostream/
it states there are two 240VAC power sources: 13 and 16 amp.
I assume UK electrical code also limits the AC load to 80% of the
outlet/breaker's rating. So a 13amp outlet is allowed a 10.5amp
draw or 2.5kW source, and a 16amp outlet is allowed a 15amp draw
or a 3kW source
There is no such rule. And, note that the mains voltage is officially 230VAC.
For example, electrical heaters fitted with the 13A fused plug are
available, rated 3kW (230 * 13 = 2990W).
Charging points such as these should definitely be fitted with an RCD
(US calls this a GFCI).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 2007-02-24 at 12:26 -0600, Lee Hart wrote:
Many thanks for the advice Lee, it is a big help to me.
> > 48v + startup resistor
> > 48V
> > 84V
> > 168V
> > 216V
>
> These are funny voltages.
Yes I know its strange. I have two banks of NiCads; the factory fitted
watercooled saft STM100 nicads in 4 unequal blocks and then 48V of
secondhand Alcad and Nife Nicads.
I haven't a huge amount of time so I am hoping to avoid dismantling the
saft blocks (I did that a few months ago to fix a waterleak and it took
half a day just to drop one block).
> Does the field really need 120v at 10 amps? That's 1.2kw. The field
> power is usually around 1% of the motor power, so that means you have a
> 120kw motor?
I am just quoting what I read in the workshop manual.
Its a Leroy Somer motor specifically designed for Peugeot/Citroen, I
think they may have designed it like that because they can reach full
voltage on the armature at around 15mph, thereafter the controller just
varies the field current. So for 95% of the journey the armature IGBT
will be bypassed, probably makes cooling the controller easier and the
whole process a few % more efficient. They may even use the same control
circuit for the field control and save a little money there. If they had
used a weaker field then possibly the armature current would need
varying at normal driving speeds.
> Usually, the operator will decide how much motor power he wants, and
> control the steps manually. You don't need to check motor current.
I must be missing something, do you mean let the driver directly control
the armature and field cirrent? isn't that a recipe for a broken motor?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for all the good info guys.
From the sounds of it, I have 3 cooling options that should work:
a) Just run fluid through the system and use an expansion tank.
b) Run the fluid through a heater core.
c) Run the fluid through a heater core with an electric fan in extreme heat.
I live in Maryland. The summers can be hot and the winters are cold. It
never gets "Arizona hot" though.
I like how the Zilla maintains a "battery voltage/current" and a "motor
voltage/current". Based on what you're telling me, it seems that my real
limitation is the 8v batteries. It doesn't sound like they'll take much of a
pounding beyond what the Curtis is capable of drawing out of them.
When I bought the car and found 8v batteries in it, I really agonized over
which battery voltage to use. I ended up contacting the actual builder (2
owners ago) by email. He told me that the car was just too slow at 96 volts
so he went with 8v batteries.
You want to talk battery abuse? The nearly-dead Trojans I found in the car
were 5 years old and bone dry! The previous owner was a woman who understood
equalizing charges but did not add water in her 2 years of ownership. Just
for fun, I put water in them to see how empty they were. It took 11 GALLONS
of distilled water to fill those 16 batteries. My range increased from 2 to
10 miles even on those tortured batteries.
I bought an 8v US battery as a comperable replacement. I'm hoping they'll
stand up to at least a little abuse. I'll get with the DC EV club and see if
there's anyone local to help me with programming and install.
Thanks for all the good words guys.
Rich
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--- Begin Message ---
From: GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:51:14 -0800
I wonder if you eliminated all tire hysteriesis if you would also have to
elminate all suspension travel to lose that loss as well. Otherwise would
all the hysterisis just ransfer to the suspension as spring heating etc?
And isn't it still the same energy loss?
These are two entirely different effects. Energy will be lost in a rolling
tire even if the road surface is perfectly smooth. Energy will be lost in
the suspension only if the road if rough. In any case, I don't understand
the "transfer" of hysteresis. Reducing losses in one place does not
generally transfer the losses somewhere else. For example, if I use lower
loss transmission fluid, it does not cause more energy to be lost in wind
drag. They are independent.
And, the springs are made of steel and have essentially no hysteresis ( and,
therefore, no heat is generated in them), Steel will only dissipate energy
(and get warm) if you stress it past its elastic limit. This normally does
not happen in suspension springs. If it did, the spring would fatigue and
fail after a very short time.
The energy loss in a suspension is in the shock absorbers - they will get
warm, not the springs. There has been an ongoing discussion here about
trying to recover some of this enegy using electrically damped shock
absorbers as a form of regeneration.
That said remember the cross section the tire presents to the AIR is
directly proportional to the tire cross section and the amount of
AERODYNAMIC drag the tire creates. Thus a tire twice as wide for the same
height will create twice the aerodynamic drag.
At speeds above 30 mph the aerdynamic resistance of the wheel is
significant -especially on other wise low drag car bodies.
Maybe - but the question here ( and the primary energy lost in the tires) is
rolling resistance, not air resistance. In any case, most of the tire is
shrouded within the fender, so this effect may be small.
As an example, a typical car might have a frontal area of 2.2 Meters squared
( Honda Civic). A change from 175/70 to 205/55 tires would mean an increase
in frontal area of about 0.007 M-sq (assuming that about 5 inches of the
each tire is exposed below the body of the car). This is an increase of
0.33 % in the frontal area. Not much.
Phil
There is a reason even slow flying planes put wheel tear drop covers on
their landing gear!
Look at a cessna or cirrus!
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 2:25 pm, Phil Marino wrote:
From: Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: EV List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: RE: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:59:55 -0800 (PST)
Wow! That's some fat rubber!
I don't know if there is a formula, but in theory the less contact there
is
with the road the less friction you have to overcome.
I don't understand your reasoning. Can you be a little more specific about
this?
First, tires roll and don't slide ( for the most part), so how does
friction with the road enter into it? I thought most of the losses were
due to hysteresis in the tire itself.
This is from the TRANSPORTATION RESEARCH BOARDSPECIAL REPORT 286
" The rubber tire interacts with the hard road sur-
face by deforming under load, thereby generating the forces responsible
for traction, cornering, acceleration, and braking. It also provides
increased
cushioning for ride comfort. A disadvantage, however, is that energy is
expended as the pneumatic tire repeatedly deforms and recovers during
its rotation under the weight of the vehicle.
Most of this energy loss stems from the viscoelastic behavior of rub-
ber materials. "
This is a great treatment of tire RR. You can find it here:
http://www.trb.org/news/search_news.asp?q_aw=286&q_ep=&q_sw=&q_nw=&allsubjects=on&subjectradio=0&allblurbtypes=on&day=0&Lower_Date=&Upper_Date=&s=1&st=1&Submit1=Find+Blurbs
Second, if the tire were sliding, the friction force would depend on the
load on the tire and the coefficient of friction. The contact shape does
not come into it ( except for subtle effects on the friction coefficient
during extreme lateral loading)
I know that it seems to many, that narrower means lower RR, but I have yet
to see any data to support that, or a clear explanation as to why that
would be true.
We should base our decisions (such as which tires to buy) on solid
information - but, for this question (wide vs narrow) , it seems to be
unavailable. The best bet, now, is to look at the available RR data for
the tires that will fit your car and meet your needs.
Phil
On my Saturn conversion
I focused a lot on reducing losses in the wheels. The car had some
no-name
195 width tires on it, which I think was the stock tire size. I ended up
putting
a 185/60R15 Goodyear Integrity tire on it. These are "fuel efficient" as
they
say on the web site. I have no rolling resistance numbers for them but
they are
used on a lot of OEM vehicles. Between going a little skinnier and the
rolling
resistance it made a good 10 amp improvement in current draw in the city!
From there I bought some Kosie racing wheels from Tire Rack. The 15's
only weigh
12.6 lbs, which is ~8 lbs a piece less than the stock Saturn alloys! This
made the
biggest difference of all. Not only do they look good but what took 200
amps to
accelerate now only took 150 amps to accelerate just as quickly. The car
wouln't
roll quite as much after you took your foot of the go pedal (though I'm
sure if I
took it up to 50 and let off the pedal it would still take a few miles
before the
car came to a stop).
Rick
-------------------------------------------
I'm interested in this formula as well. I have fairly large tires
275/60/15 - about 10 inches wide and I'm thinking about changing them
to
a narrower tire. Would my money be well spent here?
John Grigg
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/723
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark E. Hanson
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 5:09 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
Hi,
Is there a formulae for tire width vs LRR? I need to buy new tires
for my electric Porsche and there are P155, P165 and P195 options. I
assume that the skinnier tire always wins in LRR but by what
measureable
percentage? Is there measureable data or a formulae for width, are we
talking about 5% range difference (or MPG) or is it a fraction of a
percent? When wider tires are used there's obviously a larger contact
patch area but the pressure to the road per square inch is decreased so
it may not be a huge percentage.
Best Regards,
Mark
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike and All,
You can cut watering by only equalizing
only every 5 or so charges and only charging up to 90% the
other times if you don't need the full range though the
range looks short as it is. I cut my watering 75% that way.
Are you mixing different BB600's? By
different manufactures? if so balancing could be strange,
hard to do and may be why one set needs more watering as
they might be getting overcharged.
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EVDL <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Nicad update
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:24:00 -0800 (PST)
>The BB600 nicad pack has a couple hundred miles since that
>last massive watering. Only 4 redtops were lower by 1/8"
>compared to the other redtops. So they got more water to
>level them off. None of the greentops were low at all. This
>is significant because they only went 450 miles on a
>watering last time. Since I'm half way to that point again,
>it's nice to see the levels are up high. This is mainly due
>to the reduction in charge time of around 75%. Also
>doubling the amount of water in the cells is helpful too.
>No spillage from any of the cells being so full. I'm
>expecting at least 1500 miles between waterings now. We'll
>see. The garage is strangely silent as the truck shuts off
>about an hour after the pack is full at 5 hours max. The
>truck use to run about 12-20 hours per day.
>
>This week the nicad pack has 3000 miles in it. Range is
>fine at about 10kwhrs max. I've done several 30 miles runs.
>The Emeter says my average run is still 15.5 miles.
>
>The truck has also been in my possesion for 2 years as of
>this month. I've added 8000 miles to it. After having 104
>lead acid Hawkers, then the Prius pack, these nicads are
>the best so far. In fact so good I've gotten completely
>lazy about getting a BMS going for it.
I don't know why you would need a BMS for flooded
ni-cads. My smaller 30 yr old SAFT versions stayed better
balanced than any other battery I've ever owned.
Best charging is a dumb charger turned off by an E
meter after the required charge is put back in in amphrs,
90% of removed amphrs after an equalizing charge and 100%
after that for 4-5 cycles, 110% equalize, repeat.
It's just such a a
>joy to drive that I spend time on my other projects.
>
>Here are the pics from the pack exploding due to excess
>hydrogen buildup in the battery box.
>http://www.rotordesign.com/s10/nicads/
That's a sign of possible overcharging or just bad
ventilation. Beware outside cells of the pack can be very
different temp wise and lead to overheating the center cells
on charging, especially overcharging though in Alaska now
that probably isn't a problem but could happen in an
insulated batt box. Been there, done that.
I assume you have them restrained so the cells can't
expand as they will without the restraints required?
They are excellent batteries, especially in the
colder climates and replace expensive AGM's, especially in
high voltage single strings.
I'm going to call local chome shops today to get
some copper interconnects plated with nickle so I can use
the BB600's I have.
Jerry Dycus
>
>I really need to get the battery box lid flattened out
>more. It's letting road dust and maybe moisture into the
>pack.
>
>Mike
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a 4000lb vehicle pushed by a warp 9 mated to the stock tranny. I
have experimented with a few cooling systems
1) I bought a jabsco water pump from the boat store. This provided a
good amount of water flow using the old radiator overflow tank and a
tranny cooler for a radiator.
It was noisy, pulled a lot of amps, and running it 40 min a day, 20 min
at a time, exceeded it's duty cycle and it started making even more
noise after a few monthes.
2) I got a swiftech MCP-350. Quiet, low current but very hard to keep
primed and I found that it wasn't enough cooling in the summer or on
very long trips. I repolaced it with a MCP 650. Much better but on a
12 mile freeway drive it overheated and shut down a 1/2 block after a
stoplight. I don't have a fan on the radiator and I suspect when I
stopped moving it warmed up a little, then when I pulled the
acceleration amps it over heated.
Will try a 120mm Fan this summer, maybe a bigger pump or a second
pump.(redundency and scalability)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know if I can mix and match differnt types of nicads in
series or parallel? Not whilst charging just for discharge.
Specifically what will happen if the following cells are combined in
series? in parallel?
Alcads rated 230Ah at the 5 hours rate (about 100Ah at one hour)
Nife cells rated 80Ah at the one hour rate
Saft STM100 -100Ah at one hour
>From what I have read (saft and alcad data) there shouldn't be a
problem, the batteries may discharge/charge which will slightly shorten
their life but doesn't cause too much damage. Have I understood
correctly?
I have another question which is probably really stupid, what happens if
you connect lead and nicad batteries in series?
thanks for any help
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have several sizes - the larger ones are approx. 4" wide by 6" long.
3-phase 40 Amp 480V. - still mount with #6/32 screws, just more of them.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: Breaker mounting
> I just checked my Airpax breaker ( 250 A, 125V) and it mounts with 10-32
> screws. I bought it from a surplus place a few months ago.
>
> I also checked on the Airpax site - all breakers in the series JAE, JRE,
and
> JLE use 10-32 mounting screws. Mine is a JLM series. I would be
surprised
> if a large and relatively heavy breaker were mounted with 6-32 screws.
> Maybe Joseph's breakers are a smaller size.
>
> Phil
>
>
> >From: "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> >Subject: Re: Breaker mounting
> >Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 09:08:18 -0800
> >
> >I have some Airpax breakers, and they DO indeed mount with 6/32 screws. I
> >don't think it's a misprint.
> >
> >Joseph H. Strubhar
> >
> >E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >Web: www.gremcoinc.com
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> >Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 4:27 PM
> >Subject: RE: Breaker mounting
> >
> >
> > > Eduardo Kaftanski said: "I bought a breaker from the surplus site. An
> >Airpax
> > > 250A 160V. Problem is I cant find the right screw to fix it to the
front
> > > mounting holes... Tried 5mm and 9/16 and both are the right diameter
but
> >the
> > > wrong pitch...
> > >
> > > Web site says '# 6-32' but I cant find that around here... Any
> > > other name for it so I can find it?
> > >
> > > [Mick says:] I'll bet #6-32 is a misprint. I'm pretty sure I've used
the
> > > identical breaker for some of my solar electric control systems. I
> >believe
> > > the mounting screws are #10-32. That is 3/16" diameter (or close to
> >5mm),
> > > whereas a #6 screw is less than 1/8" diameter (closer to 3mm). #10
> >screws
> > > are available with a coarse thread (24 threads per inch) and a fine
> >thread
> > > (32 threads per inch). I think you need the fine thread #10-32.
Perhaps
> >the
> > > supplier of that breaker would throw some in an envelope for you.
> > >
> > > Mick Abraham
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.3/700 - Release Date:
> >2/24/2007
> >8:14 PM
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian.
>
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>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.3/700 - Release Date: 2/24/2007
8:14 PM
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As a fairly obvious example of less rolling resistance
in skinny tires look at bicycles. Racers use super
thin high pressure tires, even though wider tires
would give better high speed cornering ability. Why?
Because of less rolling resistance and lower weight.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 26 Feb 2007 at 5:50, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> I
> have experimented with a few cooling systems ...
I realize that many EVDL are trying to save money, but may I suggest a pump
that's designed for continuous use? Here are a couple :
http://metricmind.com/water.htm
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Charles and all,
last weekend I was in the pheonix area and went to the
scottsdale BMW dealer for a test ride of their
vectrix. Naturally I told him I would buy it on the
spot, but alas it is a demo only--Not For Sale-- what
a great bike. The regenerative braking was so good
that there seemed no need for the actual brakes. It
was very snappy in acceleration like all bikes and
very stable riding platform. The dealer was quite
knowledgable and informative. Stated that it would
cost $10,500 which was on the low end of his bikes
many of which were priced in the $20k plus bracket.
He mistakenly said the delivery was immediate in
Europe but didn't think delivery would be for 3 to 6
months here. I was not aware that one could acutally
drive off with one anywhere. Is this true? Has
production actually started? Is the production line
complete? Why is it being exported to europe when it
is manufactured here? Lots of questions but actually
seeing and riding one was sure fun. I may even go
back and ask if I can rent it for a day to check
things like range and recharge for myself. all in all
I think it is a winner.
--- Charles Whalen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Doug,
>
> Last I heard first deliveries were supposed to start
> sometime in March in
> London and Rome. The full list of UK dealers can be
> found here:
>
>
www.vectrix.com/ContentResources/3/165575628/1/172_January2007.pdf
>
> Maybe one of our listers in the London area could
> give those three London
> dealers a call to check on the status and then
> report back to the list?
>
> Charles Whalen
>
>
> On Sunday, February 25, 2007 4:58 PM, Doug Hartley
> wrote:
>
> > 4:59 PM EST
> >
> > Hi Charles,
> >
> > Last fall Vectrix had expected to be shipping the
> first bikes in Europe
> > around the end of February. Can you heard any
> update or news about this?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Doug
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 3:52 PM
> > Subject: Re: [electric_vehicles_for_sale] (fwd)
> VECTRIX Demo Bike Now
> > Available For Te...
> >
> >
> >>I agree completely. One should never invest in
> any EV-related venture
> >>more
> >> than one can comfortably afford to lose, because
> as you point out, the
> >> history of the last 40 years (and longer) would
> indicate that the odds
> >> are
> >> more than likely that one will lose at least some
> and quite possibly all
> >> of
> >> one's investment.
> >>
> >> Charles Whalen
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
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--- End Message ---
