EV Digest 6484
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) CC drag racing and Contactor controller control?
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Blind EVs
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Fully sprung 'direct drive' (was: Regenerative suspension)
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Contactor controller control?
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Fully sprung 'direct drive' (was: Regenerative suspension)
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: any suggestions for traction pack powered accessory fuses?
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Tango lane splitting
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: EVLN(New ratings reduce MPG numbers)
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: [EV] RE: [EV] RE: Contactor controller control?
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) 2-speed transfer cases (RE: Speaking of Hybrids)
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Contactor controller control?
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) PFC 20 thermal compensation
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Should I buy 2 more batteries?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: axles (was: RE: Speaking of Hybrids)
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: axles (was: RE: Speaking of Hybrids)
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Contactor controller control?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: axles (was: RE: Speaking of Hybrids)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Questions on EV
by "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Should I buy 2 more batteries?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Should I buy 2 more batteries?
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Tango lane splitting
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Tango lane splitting
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: EV math is not my strong point
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: EV math is not my strong point
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: axles (was: RE: Speaking of Hybrids)
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Cor, Damon and All,
-Sure, which version?
-When you know what you want (which voltages) and how many
speeds
-(with start resistors) then the only practical thing is if
you
-have single pole contactors or multi-pole and whether you
want to build with
=diodes or all contactors
-(three voltage levels can require up to 9 contactors)
-Some safety-additions to avoid short circuses by checking
contactor state
-require some helper contacts to make things a even little
more complicated,
-but the essential ingredient of any contactor controller
is:
- one "series" contactor that can switch two (sets of)
batteries in series
(connect one + to next -)
- two "parallel" contactors (or two contacts on a single
contactor) to
-switch two (sets of) batteries in parallel (connect one +
to the other + and
-one - to the next -)
-The rest is variations on this, adding second or third
layers of
-series/parallel switching and adding a startup resistor
that can be bypassed
-by a contactor.
I did my 5 speed not including stop by using a 2
speed pedal, first one was a manual converted to contactor
which had the resistor stage first, then on. The S/P was a
switch on the panel giving 2 speeds with the pedal let off
for the switching and then a field weakening speed for
between the S and P stages and for higher rpm in the S
position. The problem is one needs to remember which speed
you are it before you hit the pedal. I found out even a
36vdc can burn rubber if you start it in S and you need to
make sure you only use field weakening at higher rpm's.
Easiest on the batts, motor, drive train is
letting the motor wind out before hitting the next speed. Or
you can find out just how many amps a CC will do!!
I was thinking, dangerous I know, about using 3
amp diodes to build a switching matrix to do the correct
speed sequence, using a narrow wiper contact over a group of
copper bars with enough room between them so the switch
turns off before the next speed?
Thus when hitting the first one, diodes going to
the P contactors starts you up on the lower voltage and the
resistor, next for 2nd, doides go to the resistor shorting
contactor and the P contactor. For 3rd it would go to those
plus the FW, 4th would go to the Resistor shorting Contactor
and the S contactor, 5th does them and FW. This only
requires 5 SPST contactors with a circuit breaker and fuse.
Which would make it where you couldn't be wrong
which speed you were in from a stop.
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Contactor controller control?
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 13:28:26 -0800
>Damon,
>
>In a road-going EV it can be helpful to have a backup
>controller, in case your electronic controller fails, also
>dependent on the record of the controller itself - if it's
>self-built it may be even more desirable than when having a
>known-to-fail-someday industrial controller.
>Since about half the contactors are already needed in a
>road-going EV, why not put two more in to make a CC for the
>moments you need it to move out of the way/get home?
>Essentially the same reason why many cars carry a spare
>tire.
I wouldn't leave home with an E controler without
a CC backup as you said, only needs a couple more contactors
than the EC already has. Especially if it's a Curtis..
>
>Regards,
>
>Cor van de Water
Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of damon
>henry Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 1:21 PM
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Contactor controller control?
>
>I finally decided I have to try playing with a contactor
>controller, so I bought some surpluss contactors off ebay
>to give a whirl. The theory is simple enough and has been
>discussed on this list plenty of times, but some of the
>practical aspects I am wondering about include what people
>have used to control the switching itself. Generally you
>are using some kind of mechanical device such as a cable or
>throttle linkage as a control device. What are some good
>ways to turn this motion into an action which causes the
>coils of the appropriate contactors to be energized and
>what kind of failsafe measures are used to be sure that two
>contactors that shouldn't be engaged at the same time never
>are.
You can use the diode matrix above or use physical
gates so you can only hit certain switches. Or get a rotary
switch that doesn't short one contact to the next.
Another is make a manual drum, wiper or disc
switch set up.
Use a 2-3 speed pedal, hand throttle, with S/P and
Field weakening on the panel.
Be careful using CC's on wet, ice or other slick
surfaces where you need to have your resistor/s carefully
selected, The FW between S/P help here too. You select FW by
changing the lenght of a 12GGE copper wire, I use 1' on a
100 amp series motor for about 1/3 FW which gives a nice
kick in the pants feeling once you have reached top speed
without it, like passing gear. This also lets you have a
higher gear ratio for faster acceleration with the same top
speed as it broaden the series motors useful rpm range,
problem it has when hitting hills, passing, ect at top
speed.
I always though for a cheap EV dragster one could
use several small batt packs instead of a controller. By
experience select as many batts as needed for take off say 6
12v 13amphr Hawkers, less for a MC, then as soon as they hit
their peak, hit a pack of 4 times as many that in parallel,
take you to say mid 1/4 mile, then hit series, then hit
first pack in series to, then hit FW would give great power
at a cheap price. Or do the S/P on the first part with
fresh batts for the top end. My kind of racing!! Could put
out about what a Zilla would with careful attention to
details though not as controlable.
Jerry Dycus
>
>I may never do anything but change the voltage across a
>light bulb with this just to see it work, but with an ev
>scooter, an ev motorcycle, and likely an ev truck in the
>near future I am developing a natural progression of
>platforms to test new(100 year old) ideas on :-)
>
>damon
>
>___________________________________________________________
>______ The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see
>yours: $0 by Experian.
>http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVE
>RAGE
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FWIW the battery-electric trolleys that run on the main street here in Santa Barbara were deemed too quiet by the
community of sighted people. They added some sort of mechanical noise-maker - sounds like a hum. I myself have been
surprised enough to jump back when one pulls in to the curb where I am standing. The trolleys are a big success, very
popular with the tourists.
John Fisher
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the follow-up, John!
> Well we'll just have at agree to disagree about Code.
No worries -- I don't think he drives/rides electric, anyway.
> The (my) confusion arises from two separate sets of forces
> at work: weight transfer and drive off the rear contact patch.
> They produce opposite reaction, usually but not always, and in
> unequal amounts.
Yes, and they are somewhat counter-intuitive. I frequently have to
scribble out vector diagrams to remind myself which is which.
When I get off graph paper and neurons and into actual implementation, I
think I will try placing the motor onboard the swing-arm -- it
streamlines the forces and simplifies/modularizes power delivery. Even
if only for practical reasons, it makes enough sense to try. I'll
definitely build adjustment into the system, as well -- good suggestion.
Mass centralization should be pretty easy on a battery-powered roadster.
:D
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was giving this some thought recently and came up with the following
idea.
Use the OEM throttle pedal and throttle cable. Bring the cable into a
sealed box and connect it to a rectangular slab of nylon. Use a
throttle return spring to counter the pull of the pedal so the slab
returns to the starting position when you let up on the pedal.
Then you position microswitches opposite the nylon slab such that the
switches are closed by the nylon slab. Wire the microswitches to
control your contactors.
Now cut holes in the nylon slab such that the contactors open and close
as desired as the slab slides back and forth under the microswitches.
It occurs to me that I've seen switches that work like this off the
shelf, like the Hubbbell MPP123 (a push-pull switch that has Off, On
#1, and On #2). It's not impossible that you can find one that will
work for your application. Take out the detents (or not), add a
spring, and have fun.
If *I* were doing it I'd use Lego (at least for the prototype).
(Upon further reflection, I don't know what would happen if a switch
failed. Add some relays that inhibit the dangerous combinations,
perhaps hooked up to the contactor sense microswitches? Determining
the relay logic would require a careful failure mode analysis.)
On Feb 27, 2007, at 2:21 PM, damon henry wrote:
I finally decided I have to try playing with a contactor controller,
so I bought some surpluss contactors off ebay to give a whirl. The
theory is simple enough and has been discussed on this list plenty of
times, but some of the practical aspects I am wondering about include
what people have used to control the switching itself. Generally you
are using some kind of mechanical device such as a cable or throttle
linkage as a control device. What are some good ways to turn this
motion into an action which causes the coils of the appropriate
contactors to be energized and what kind of failsafe measures are used
to be sure that two contactors that shouldn't be engaged at the same
time never are.
I may never do anything but change the voltage across a light bulb
with this just to see it work, but with an ev scooter, an ev
motorcycle, and likely an ev truck in the near future I am developing
a natural progression of platforms to test new(100 year old) ideas on
:-)
damon
_________________________________________________________________
The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by
Experian.
http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?
sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can't copy except bitmaps, out of Tony's book after all ( I have a PDF version as well as paper ) so email off-list if
you want some further info from him.
Are you doing a 3-wheeler or a bike or what?
John
Randy Burleson wrote:
Thanks for the follow-up, John!
Well we'll just have at agree to disagree about Code.
No worries -- I don't think he drives/rides electric, anyway.
The (my) confusion arises from two separate sets of forces
at work: weight transfer and drive off the rear contact patch.
They produce opposite reaction, usually but not always, and in
unequal amounts.
Yes, and they are somewhat counter-intuitive. I frequently have to
scribble out vector diagrams to remind myself which is which.
When I get off graph paper and neurons and into actual implementation, I
think I will try placing the motor onboard the swing-arm -- it
streamlines the forces and simplifies/modularizes power delivery. Even
if only for practical reasons, it makes enough sense to try. I'll
definitely build adjustment into the system, as well -- good suggestion.
Mass centralization should be pretty easy on a battery-powered roadster.
:D
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Littlefuse KLKD fuses. They are fast blow semiconductor fuses, however, so
watch it if you have anything with a significant inrush current (I learned the
hard way).
David Brandt
----- Original Message ----
From: Paul Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 2:14:48 PM
Subject: any suggestions for traction pack powered accessory fuses?
Currently, I'm using the little glass or ceramic 3AG style fuses for the
heater and DC/DC converter and all the connections to the emeter. These
fuses are rated at 250 volts. The traction pack voltage is nominal 144vdc.
Now that I'm considering going up into the 350vdc range, I'll need fuses
for this application rated for at least 400 volts. I've checked Bussman
and Littlefuse, but so far, I've not found any small fuses that will
work in this application.
What are others using for accessory fuses at these high voltages?
Paul Wallace
____________________________________________________________________________________
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Me too. My wife hates it from the car's POV, I used to do it all the time. Car drivers also don't realize the level of
contempt that motorcyclists have for their driving skills. That said, the current craze for stunting is giving
everybody on two wheels a bad name. ditto loud pipes. I do think the use of sportbikes' amazing acceleration regularly
startles drivers. Riders should be careful, riding among cars is already like bicycling in a buffalo herd, its not wise
to stampede them.
John Fisher
Steve Condie wrote:
The emotional response people have to lane splitting interests me. My wife
feels the same way, and I struggle to understand why. I think it's a response
to being startled. Ironically, if lane splitting were more common don't think
it would arouse the kinds of negative responses it does now, because people
wouldn't be surprised by having a motorcycle slip by, whereas now it's a
combination of a fast, noisy object suddenly appearing where you don't expect
it - and a certain amount of jealousy caused by the fact that you're stuck
there in traffic and they're not.
Seriously - lane splitting isn't going to cause the downfall of Life As We Know It.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > You don't suppose, do you, that this long overdue
> > updating of mpg testing methodology, is brought
> > forth now to convince the average American that
> > the new tech isn't enough better than ICEs to
> > warrant changing?
No, I guess I don't suppose. Occam's Razor suggests against.
> EPA specs based on hot air don't help anyone,
> except the car salesmen.
This, I will agree with, but consider that the EPA numbers are based on
a very specific set of laboratory tests and are highly repeatable in the
lab. A conversion factor is then applied, and that's the problem... the
conversion factor is meant to adapt the lab numbers to reality, and that
conversion factor has not been changed for quite some time. Driving
habits and vehicle equipment (air conditioning, gross weight, etc.) have
changed significantly in that time, so the conversion factor should have
changed.
If you want to be frustrated, be frustrated at that... and there may be
some politics around that issue, who knows.
> If specs says 60MPG, the average "light footed" driver,
> in the average model, should be able to do so, at *some*
> speed... instead of the average car getting 15-40% worse-
> than-sticker.
Mostly agreed, FWIW. I think the average driver should be able to
replicate the average number at speeds representative of whatever range
they used to create their conversion factor... and if not, said
conversion factor should be adjusted again until correct.
Otherwise, this is just so much numeric B.S.
Randii (who once got the EPA rated mileage while coasting downhill off a
mountain, with the ICE shut off)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> The rest is variations on this, adding second or third layers of
> series/parallel switching and adding a startup resistor that can be bypassed
> by a contactor.
>
> Hope this helps,
yup. I got the picture now.
I plan on using two contactors, one switched with the key and the other
with the pb6 dead man switch. So just by adding a set of reversing contactors
plus a bypassable resistor I can have 3 steps. Nice backup...
--
Eduardo K. |
http://www.carfun.cl | I'm white and nerdy
http://e.nn.cl | Weird Al
http://ev.nn.cl |
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The only disadvantage is that usually one ratio is 1:1 and
> the other is typically around 2:1
May ratios exist these days in the aftermarket, ranging from 2:1 to
5.7:1 and there are even a few available with a *slight* overdrive.
FWIW, Toyota mini-truck transfer cases can be adapted to married or
divorced configurations with 1:1 (straight through) and 2.28:1, 4.0:1,
4.7:1, 5.0:1, and 5.7:1 ratios available, and they are quite strong and
reasonably light weight. Smaller and bigger solutions are also
available.
Cool stuff -- let me know what ratio you seek and I can suggest a
solution.
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Well, there is the tried-and-true drum controller
> as used (perfected?) in turn of the century electrics.
I need training wheels on this. I'm guessing you mean turn of the LAST
century. :p
Regardless, can you explain? Nothing on Google jumped easily to hand...
Randii (enamored of simple solutions)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think I asked this before but couldn't put my hands on the answer.
What do I need to do, or do I do nothing, to the charger settings for
winter?
Are the regs thermally compensated? I heard that in the winter we are
suppose to turn up the charging voltage, but that was always mentioned
in regards to floodies.
setup: 24 orbitals with regs on PFC20.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
GWMobile wrote:
The day the majority of hotrodders realize an electric vehicle can kick
their $#% is the day that electric vehicles will start to really take
off.
It's good to be up to date on the list for the first time in many
months and be able to contribute again.
The sentiment above is one I had myself when I was new to EVs, even
though I have some experience at a pretty high level of professional
(ICE) racing. It's easy to get caught up in the excitement of showing
the world how EVs really are viable. But let's not go too far.
Beating an ICE with a comparable EV is very hard, if not impossible
(so far). Of course "comparable" is very difficult to define.
The top guns in the EV racing world are John Wayland's White Zombie,
Bill Dube's Killacycle and Dennis Berube's Current Eliminator. I
don't know much about rail dragsters, so better not to comment on
Dennis' amazing achievements.
John has poured his heart and soul into the Zombie and it shows. I
have no doubt he will hit 11's this year. But step back a minute.
How much re-engineering of that car has he done? How can you really
compare it to an ICE drag car? Imagine John had *not* been an EVer,
and instead simply dropped a crate V-6 into his little Datsun years
ago. Isn't his current EV a bit more elaborate than a typical engine
swap? What if he then spent all that time developing a V-6 Zombie -
what would he be running now? Low 10's? High 9's? And probably for
far less money.
The performance differential gets even more stunning with motorcycles.
For quite a while Bill's Killacycle, the meanest, baddest, full-gonzo
electric motorcycle on the planet, was running 9.8 at 150 mph. About
the same as a bone stock Suzuki GSXR 1000 (9.77 at 148.7 per
Motorcyclist magazine).
If you really want to showcase the difference between EV and ICE, you
need to put them on an even playing field. So let's tweak the
road-racing-oriented Suzuki a bit for the drag strip. We'll give it a
solid rear frame wrapped around a huge wrinkle-wall slick, lower it a
few inches, add some wheelie bars and optimize the gearing, just like
the Killacycle. Now you're crowding (or beating) Bill's new record of
8.76.
Notice we haven't changed the engine at all. It still has its smooth
idle, whisper quiet exhaust, original air box, stock cam timing and
fuel injection map. Once you get into engine mods you can pull *way*
over 200 hp out of a GSXR. That's not a typo. (Stock, it makes 160
hp.) Do the math.
The point is that head-to-head comparisons with ICE vehicles is not
the point. By all means be enthusiastic about the future of EVs.
Support the racers that do so much to advance the breed, because
they're doing a fabulous job. Do not get carried away. There have
been too many disappointments, over-hyped claims and broken promises
about EVs in the past.
Things really *are* looking up these days. We don't need to inflate
our abilities anymore. Maybe we can't beat the ICEs heads up, but
this is a type of racing that is in its infancy. The message is the
incredible progress we're making. And that viability on the track
means viability on the road.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is the scenario. When thanksgiving arrived and it turned cold my
range dropped dramatically. Couldn't even make it to work and back.
(about 5kwh)
24orbitals at 34ah 1hr rate * .8 should be 7.8kwh so I am useing 50% per
day.
I though it was just the cold, but as I did some testing 4 batteries
didn't look so good and 2 were obvious. So I bought a new battery and
swapped the other with the aux battery as it was the same type, newer
and has seen very light duty. This was an improvement but yesterday and
today I commuted to work.
I am checking these voltages immediately after the commute.
The new battery, which I am useing as a capacity guage was 12.3V
both days.
The old Aux battery and all the others except #8 and #9 were 12.1+/- .1V
#8 and #9 are at 11.1 and 11.2 :-(
I am interpreting this as most my batteries are in the 40-50% SOC range
(since this is an off-throttle voltage and will rise a little if i waited)
I am interpreting #8 and #9 to be at 0%!
The goal is just to commute the 14ish miles a day.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
well thanks lee. I was also thinking that shortening the half-shafts is
going to be the easy part of narrowing the rear, you'll have to narrow
the rest of the suspension too.
I'm going to the salvage yard tomorrow and get a 7.5" t-bird irs rear
($150) and see if I can use it, how heavy etc.
A 5.14 gear is available for the 7.5.
At minimum the half-shafts are 28-spline and so will plug into the 9"
pumpkin.
Jack
Lee Hart wrote:
Jack Murray wrote:
http://www.moserengineering.com/Pages/Shop-Services/shopservices.html
Moser Engineering resplines OEM and aftermarket axles, custom shafts,
4 wheel drive axle shafts, transmission shafts, and clutch
input/output shafts.
We can cold spline almost any shaft up to 60 Rockwell in hardness that
has enough material to cut full depth splines. Our machining
capabilities include shafts up to 3" in diameter and lengths up to
48". All resplining is done cold so no annealing or heat treatment is
required.
Single Axle
$65 each
Aha! I'll contact them and see what can be done.
See; I told you there are smart people on this list!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If anyone else wants to try using a T-Bird rear end for their EV, I have a '92
for parts, near Modesto CA. Cheap cheap cheap
---- Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
=============
well thanks lee. I was also thinking that shortening the half-shafts is
going to be the easy part of narrowing the rear, you'll have to narrow
the rest of the suspension too.
I'm going to the salvage yard tomorrow and get a 7.5" t-bird irs rear
($150) and see if I can use it, how heavy etc.
A 5.14 gear is available for the 7.5.
At minimum the half-shafts are 28-spline and so will plug into the 9"
pumpkin.
Jack
Lee Hart wrote:
> Jack Murray wrote:
>
>> http://www.moserengineering.com/Pages/Shop-Services/shopservices.html
>>
>> Moser Engineering resplines OEM and aftermarket axles, custom shafts,
>> 4 wheel drive axle shafts, transmission shafts, and clutch
>> input/output shafts.
>>
>> We can cold spline almost any shaft up to 60 Rockwell in hardness that
>> has enough material to cut full depth splines. Our machining
>> capabilities include shafts up to 3" in diameter and lengths up to
>> 48". All resplining is done cold so no annealing or heat treatment is
>> required.
>> Single Axle
>> $65 each
>
>
> Aha! I'll contact them and see what can be done.
>
> See; I told you there are smart people on this list!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:21 PM 27/02/07 +0000, damon wrote:
I finally decided I have to try playing with a contactor controller, so I
bought some surpluss contactors off ebay to give a whirl. The theory is
simple enough and has been discussed on this list plenty of times, but
some of the practical aspects I am wondering about include what people
have used to control the switching itself. Generally you are using some
kind of mechanical device such as a cable or throttle linkage as a control
device.
What are some good ways to turn this motion into an action which causes
the coils of the appropriate contactors to be energized and what kind of
failsafe measures are used to be sure that two contactors that shouldn't
be engaged at the same time never are.
I may never do anything but change the voltage across a light bulb with
this just to see it work, but with an ev scooter, an ev motorcycle, and
likely an ev truck in the near future I am developing a natural
progression of platforms to test new(100 year old) ideas on :-)
G'day Damon, and all
Damon, first up, what level of tech are you? Mechanical, electrical,
analogue electronics, digital electronics, microprocessor? and as much as
anything, what's your favorite?
Me, I'd use a potbox to give a voltage, and a micro PLC that is also seeing
amps so to step back to lower stages if the amps are too high, and allow up
when the amps are falling back, driving your control relays. Same thing can
be done in a microprocessor, hard to do mechanically.
You may be mechanical, so set up a shaft like a potbox shaft with a bunch
of cams and microswitches, but you have no current limiting then, other
than the operator. Ask your local bearings-and-sprockets dealer about
"Shaft collars", these are pre-made steel rings (like short pieces of pipe)
that have precise inside diameter and usually two grubscrews holding them.
You can grind them into being cams and lift roller-arm or roller-plunger
microswitches with them, one cam per switch, and do up the grub screws to
lock them in place once you have the settings.
Anyway, pick your number of steps, your way of converting mechanical to
electrical steps, then use the control relays to do the logic for
interlocking the stages (unless you are confident in your designing ability
to make the drivers failsafe). (Diodes are good for "AND" the contactor
coils). If you need help with the relay logic for the interlocks, or design
of the mechanical movement to electrical system 'sing out'.
Let us know how you go.
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> If anyone else wants to try using a T-Bird rear end for their EV, I have
> a '92 for parts, near Modesto CA. Cheap, cheap, cheap.
We just bought a '92 T'Bird ourselves for parts. Looks like a fine source of
parts for anyone planning to build their own Sunrise. They have disk front /
drum rear brakes, which is what I'm thinking of using myself.
Note that there are two differentials; cars with a V6 engine have a smaller
one, and cars with a V8 have the bigger 8.9". Either can be used, but we could
only find gear up to 4.89:1 (or thereabouts). The 8.9" accepts up to 5.14:1.
Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was also thinking that shortening the half-shafts is going to be the easy
> part of narrowing the rear. You'll have to narrow the rest of the suspension
> too.
Yes. We cut the rear subframe in half, took 10" out of the center, and tack
welded it back togehter to serve as the pattern. We're making our own
replacement subframe from square steel tubing. This subframe will fit into
slots in the composite chassis, mounts the inverted differential, and has the
motor mounting plate on it.
> I'm going to the salvage yard tomorrow and get a 7.5" t-bird irs rear
> ($150) and see if I can use it, how heavy etc.
> A 5.14 gear is available for the 7.5.
> At minimum the half-shafts are 28-spline and so will plug into the 9"
> pumpkin.
Where did you find 5.14:1 gears for the 7.5"?
--
Lee Hart
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--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water said:
I think Mick meant 3,000 Watt of solar panels to recharge the pack in a day
(5 hours sun x 3 kW = 15 kWh into the batteries)
[Mick says:] Thanks, Cor, but I was really speculating about a running
wattage of "3,000 watts or more". Emphasis on "or more". I thought at the
time that 3,000 watts was way low, but didn't want to unfairly overstate the
power draw for a 914 VoltsPorsche since I don't know. Cor's math is correct:
if one had a 3kW solar array plus a chance to plug a vehicle into that much
PV for a sunny day...
Peter VanDerWal said: "at only 3,000 watts, that 914 isn't going to be
"running"...walking or jogging maybe."
[Mick says:] Point well taken, Peter. The bottom line is that there's a huge
difference between running wattage for a converted vehicle and the amount of
solar wattage that could practically be mounted onto the same vehicle.
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Jeff Shanab
> ...range dropped dramatically. Couldn't make it to work and back (5kwh)...
> 24 Orbitals at 34ah 1hr rate * .8 should be 7.8kwh so I am using 50% per
> day... did some testing... 4 batteries [weak], 2 [bad]... I bought a new
> battery and swapped the other with the aux battery as it was the same
> type, newer and has seen very light duty...
>
> Checking voltages immediately after the commute...
> The new battery was 12.3V both days.
> The old Aux battery and all the others except #8 and #9 were 12.1+/- .1V
> #8 and #9 are at 11.1 and 11.2 :-(
>
> I am interpreting this as most my batteries are in the 40-50% SOC range
> (since this is an off-throttle voltage and will rise a little if i waited)
> I am interpreting #8 and #9 to be at 0%!
First, the voltage immediately after driving isn't a good indication of state
of charge. About all it tells you is if you have reversed any cells. Since all
were over ~10v, none were reversed.
Wait for at least a few hours after driving (without charging), and the see
what the individual battery voltages are. Waiting overnight is better, but you
can't do this if you expect to recharge for a drive the next day.
Let us know what these voltages are, and we can proceed from there!
--
Lee Hart
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--- Begin Message ---
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am checking these voltages immediately after the commute.
You should be testing them under load. If you have an electric
heater in the car you can just use that. Otherwise fabricate
something that will put a nominal load on the pack, and the weak
ones will easily stand out.
Additionally, you should be looking to replace the pack as a whole
at this point. With the wide range of battery age, cycles and
merit all mixed together, you will never achieve balance, or
potential life of even the good ones. If all you're interested
in is learning and trying things you can press forward, but
it will never be a homogeneous pack and it will cost you more in
the long run. (Been there, done it.)
Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks, this is interesting and I'm encouraged by the relatively cool tone that
pervades a potentially controversial thread. However, it's wandered off topic.
The point has been made that the Tango EV was designed to be narrow
enough to lane-split, if the law allows, and if the driver chooses to do so.
Further discussion that specifically focuses on the Tango is fine and certainly
welcome. Otherwise, please, let's not turn this into an off-topic debate about
the general merits and demerits of lane splitting. We're here to advance the
cause of EVs, and I'm not sure that arguing over lane splitting itself will do
much for that.
Thanks.
David Roden
EVDL Administrator
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think we're wandering off topic. Rick said the Tango can legally do lane
*sharing*, with two Tangos and/or motorcycles side-by-side in the same lane.
Late splitting is quite different. I think that is generally accepted to mean
driving down the centerline between lanes. You're only allowed to do this for
100 feet or so, while changing lanes; not drive continuously there.
--
Lee Hart
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey Chris, all
I think EVeryone would have to concede that the best
EV out there can't take down the best gasser (yet)lol.
I tend to side with GW on this one though. More often
than not WZ wins it's runs against average track
racers. Add to that the fact of when WZ ran it's
first bracket race, the other racers were telling Tim
he was in the wrong lane because he was in the big dog
lane. Zombie was the slowest big dog but big enough
bite, hehe.
Maybe you weren't there when Tim made a little boy cry
when Tim ate up the boys uncle in a mach1 (plasma boy
can confirm this)just smoked him. Another time that
sticks out for me was at the truck stop after the
Hooter girl show and shine 8^o. One of the guys had a
low 11 sec car, but he walked away from Tim's ride
with utter respect. I also believe that for
KillaCycle to attend an "all Harley" race and run with
the boys at least proves EV's can run with the pack
(no pun intended).
As far as costs go I'm sure that their are ICE racers
throwing equal bucks on their machines. Waylands got
a lot of things sponsored but John's a good stewert of
that sponsorship, well except for that sex scandal,
drug bust, petty B&E, anyway bad example, lets take
Bill. Even with his A123's I bet he's in ballpark of
what others are spending. If nothing else looking at
my new HotRod magazine I see a really good write up on
Bills bike 8^)
I'm actually new to the whole race thing really, but
ol Wayland's got me hooked. I think Wayland said it
best after Ted West's run... "Ted West just ran a 12.3
at 103 MPH in a battey powered car, Take that gasoline
people"! I have it on tape 8^) I will admit I may be
a little bias on my oppinion 8^)
Had fun
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- Chris Tromley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> GWMobile wrote:
>
> > The day the majority of hotrodders realize an
> electric vehicle can kick
> > their $#% is the day that electric vehicles will
> start to really take
> > off.
>
> It's good to be up to date on the list for the first
> time in many
> months and be able to contribute again.
>
> The sentiment above is one I had myself when I was
> new to EVs, even
> though I have some experience at a pretty high level
> of professional
> (ICE) racing. It's easy to get caught up in the
> excitement of showing
> the world how EVs really are viable. But let's not
> go too far.
> Beating an ICE with a comparable EV is very hard, if
> not impossible
> (so far). Of course "comparable" is very difficult
> to define.
>
> The top guns in the EV racing world are John
> Wayland's White Zombie,
> Bill Dube's Killacycle and Dennis Berube's Current
> Eliminator. I
> don't know much about rail dragsters, so better not
> to comment on
> Dennis' amazing achievements.
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter wrote:
That's not quite how it works though, the comm will still see the full
720V and most likely fireball instantly.
If I set the motor side of the Zilla to 170 v though?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nope, the controller switches the pack to the motor ~20000 times a
second, 23.6% percent of each switching cycle the motor will see the
full pack voltage (minus sag) and the rest of the cycle it will be
disconnected from the pack. The average voltage will then be 170V, but
peak is full pack voltage.
On 2/27/07, Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Peter wrote:
> That's not quite how it works though, the comm will still see the full
> 720V and most likely fireball instantly.
If I set the motor side of the Zilla to 170 v though?
--
www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
sounds good, particularly if you use the smaller 7.5, the 8.8 seems way
too heavy for what will be a very lightweight car.
I found the 7.5 5:13 gear at Mark Williams
http://www.markwilliams.com/detail.aspx?ID=1477
but then found that Summit also had a Richmond gear
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=RMG%2DSFD7507&N=700+400137+4294918962+4294900886+4294776357+115&autoview=sku
What are you using to connect the motor to the differential?
I don't have much room at all in the aspire for a long coupler, given
what looks like a long pinion snout on the 7.5, it probably won't fit
horizontal mounting, I'll have to rotate it up. Is there an issue for
the ADC motor to operate that way? do they have to be level??
Another thought is to mount the motor above the diff and use a short
chain or belt drive onto the pinion. This drive can be 1:1 so no
problem getting the parts for that, in fact, with some gearing here, say
1:1.5 would only require a gear in the diff of 3.0, so the stock gears
could be used.
I think an 9in might actually weigh less, the case is small compared to
the large iron irs case, an aluminum one would almost certainly weigh less.
hope that helps,
jack
Lee Hart wrote:
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If anyone else wants to try using a T-Bird rear end for their EV, I have
a '92 for parts, near Modesto CA. Cheap, cheap, cheap.
We just bought a '92 T'Bird ourselves for parts. Looks like a fine source of
parts for anyone planning to build their own Sunrise. They have disk front /
drum rear brakes, which is what I'm thinking of using myself.
Note that there are two differentials; cars with a V6 engine have a smaller one, and cars
with a V8 have the bigger 8.9". Either can be used, but we could only find gear up
to 4.89:1 (or thereabouts). The 8.9" accepts up to 5.14:1.
Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I was also thinking that shortening the half-shafts is going to be the easy
part of narrowing the rear. You'll have to narrow the rest of the suspension
too.
Yes. We cut the rear subframe in half, took 10" out of the center, and tack
welded it back togehter to serve as the pattern. We're making our own replacement
subframe from square steel tubing. This subframe will fit into slots in the
composite chassis, mounts the inverted differential, and has the motor mounting
plate on it.
I'm going to the salvage yard tomorrow and get a 7.5" t-bird irs rear
($150) and see if I can use it, how heavy etc.
A 5.14 gear is available for the 7.5.
At minimum the half-shafts are 28-spline and so will plug into the 9"
pumpkin.
Where did you find 5.14:1 gears for the 7.5"?
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
