EV Digest 6501
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) electric boat newbie
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Compressed air as battery?
by "Brandon Kruger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Electric Bike as Cordless Tool
by "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Delta-Q charger
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: newbie - dc motor speed/hp/current/volts characteristics for racing!
by "Scott Littledike" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: electric boat newbie
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Delta-Q charger
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Orbital battery spacing/heat
by Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Fly the road vehicle
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: Battery Woes
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Nicad update and PFC charger
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) DC Motor
by "Patrick Andrews" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Freedom EV Questions
by Todd Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Questions on EV
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: US Batts & Trojan Charge Profile
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Freedom EV Questions
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Contactor controller control?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Battery Woes
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Battery Woes
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Battery Woes
by TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Nicad update and PFC charger
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: PFC 20 thermal compensation
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: EV's, Ewoody and safety,
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) EV safety (was EV bashing; was-was T-105 Sitcker Shock)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: DC Motor
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Phoenix test drive in Los Angeles 3/1/2007 AltairNano
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: DC Motor
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Greetings all,
I'm starting to build a small 14' boat using electric propulsion. I
have a 24V Westinghouse aircraft starter-generator which were sold by
Princess Auto of Winnipeg at one time. It is 8 pole series
wound,around 3 Kw I believe, so should be ample power for my
application.I haven't been able to get any specs on this machine so
I'm not sure if its rated for continuous use or not.Does anyone have
any info for this motor?I'm also not sure
if the prop will slow the motor down to the 900 or so RPM the prop
would like to run at.I'm limited by the hull to the size of prop I
use.Maybe the controller will take care of this .Can someone recommend
a primer on controllers.Its not critical to me because its a small
boat, but how hard is it to reverse this motor?.thanks...gary
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for all the input. I'm going to look more into efficiency and losses
in the storage and motor. I just had a thought about heat losses. If you
plug in to recharge/compress at night, the temperatures are lower. During
the day, when it's warmer, wouldn't the take get warm and increase the
pressure some? Of course this could create safety problems if not used
correctly, but I'm sure some release valve could be used. I'll try to
research how much energy can be stored in tanks. I saw
http://www.lincolncomposites.com/ and looked at their tanks. They are more
built for hydrogen and NGVs but should work well for compressed air.
http://www.lincolncomposites.com/media/LC%20Size_chart.pdf shows 3000 and
3600psi tanks. Even the largest tanks are under 400 pounds. Is there some
formula to calculate how much energy can be stored at a certain pressure and
volume?
Thanks,
Brandon
On 3/2/07, Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
It depends strongly on what you do with the heat.
Search on "Isotherm" and "Adiabatic" to get the differences.
In theory the Isotherm process can be without losses, but
an efficient process requires a large number of small
de-compression steps, making it impractical.
Adiabatic is wasteful.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 8:09 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Compressed air as battery?
Anyone know the overall efficiency of electricity --> Compressor -->
Compressed Air --> mechanical energy --> electricity? You could skip the
last step ...
Brandon Kruger wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Has anyone thought about using compressed air to store energy as a
> replacement to batteries? After seeing the "aircar" on Future Car, I
> think compressed air has some potential for energy storage. Depending
> on the weight of the tanks (aircar used carbon fiber) and the energy
> being stored, it could definitely yield a higher energy density then
> lead-acid.
> Using a
> motor to drive a generator, it would be possible to electrically
> recharge the car and it would deliver life cycles many times higher
> than and battery of today. I made a diagram of how I imagined this
> vehicle.
> http://bmk789.dyndns.org/pics/aircar.png It could work as a serial
PHEV.
> Compressed air tanks could also potentially be refilled quickly. Is
> there some obvious problem with this idea or am I overestimating the
> amount of energy that can be stored as compressed air?
>
>
> Brandon
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Martin Emde said: "I'm just waiting to hear from someone who has actually
tried charging these smart packs in parallel with a single smart charger."
[Mick says:] I can sure see why you don't want to juggle a bunch of baby
batteries on & off the bike, with a one hour recharge time for each pack.
The V28's have a fuel gauge on each battery which might help you keep track
of the charging regimen, but it could still be inconvenient.
Your ride is on the margin of the "Electric Bike as Cordless Tool" concept,
because it's amped up so highly. One doesn't see many table saws running on
a cordless tool pack. You may prefer a big permanently mounted battery bank,
a suitable battery balancer, and a new charger...preferably all from the
same manufacturer.
The BattEQ(TM) balancers which I distribute can be factory tweaked so that
two 4-channel units will balance a 25.2 volt lithium ion pack at the
individual cell level. In that application, the smaller 4-channel version
would pump about 6 amps out from each channel continuously. 70 of the eMoli
cells could wire up series/parallel to give you 30 amp hours @ 25.2 volts,
and with a weight below 25 pounds. You'd then have to find a suitable
charger and plan on receiving no warranty if things go badly. Dollars would
be high: $700 minimum for the cells, about $500 for the balancers, money for
the charger, plus some complicated installation work. If you are materially
blessed, however, you could wind up with the mother of all derailleur
bicycles.
The "Electric Bike as Cordless Tool" concept is somewhat different from the
above description. With EBACT, the power demand is relatively low and the
battery packs are removed from the bike for recharge just as with any other
cordless tool.
Martin said: What's the discharge rate for the 18Ahr Milwaukee battery spec?
[Mick says:] You might like to spend some time lurking in chat rooms for the
remote controlled aircraft world. A good number of participants have been
cutting up the Milwaukee or DeWalt packs just to get the cells and some have
posted how-to's. Some report that a single V28 battery can surge to 40 amps.
With only 3 ah rating, however, 40 amps could be sustained for less than 4.5
minutes. The RC crews are as intrepid as the EVDL members are, only they're
dealing with micro-sized systems. I've learned from both camps. The Electric
Bike as Cordless Tool falls somewhere between the two.
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Storm Connors wrote:
> Is there a Delta-Q charger available for a 144V pack? The
> highest voltage I can find in their literature is 72V.
Not really. I've got 3 144V models myself for my own EV, but the
highest voltage model presently available to the public is 96V.
We've supplied engineering samples for up to 288V packs, but models for
packs over 96V will not be available for sale until they've received
regulatory approval. (No, I don't know when that will be, sorry ;^)
We have 144V applications using a pair of 72V chargers, each spanning
1/2 the pack, but this is obviously not as nice a solution as placing
one or more pack-voltge chargers across the entire pack.
If you are looking for a PFC/universal input charger, you might want to
look at the Manzanita Micro and Russco offerings; if you want something
isolated and/or "intelligent", then you might look at the Zivan
chargers.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thankyou for your quick and helpful replies, i think i am understanding more
now..
so, the hp will increase with the motor speed - until your batteries/supply
reaches its limit of voltage¤t. As you increase the speed of the
motor, and therefore the voltage draw, the current available from the
batteries will decrease, this being the limiting factor to the power and rpm
available (assuming you are battery limited not motor limited)?
so the top speed/gearing of the motor to wheel will depend on your batteries
and the voltage (& therefore speed) they can provide? I guess this has to be
found experimentally as it would depend on the battery type? the
acceleration of your vehicle will depend on the amps you can pull from your
batteries, again - battery specific?
Ian - you mention that ADC motors arent made for high speed, but my
knowledge of motors on the market that might be suitable is basically none
lol! I would be interested to learn about alternatives if you can think of
any?
As for the lithiums, I have seen them, but it says on the site that they
only have a 70A continuous discharge rate (i assume i use the continuous
rate and not he pulsed)? so if i was pulling 500 - 1000amps across the run,
i would need to arrange 36 cells in series, put in parallel with another 10
or so rows? - 360 cells (expensive!) then i could draw 700A constantly? my
calculations (quite crude!) say that to complete 1 mile using 80hp i need
about 4Ah of capacity, and to complete 2 miles i need about 7Ah.. Do you
think the SVR batteries will be upto the job, they are 14Ah and according to
the EVparts site, can handle 900A for 10 seconds?
Thanks again for the replies!
Scott
Hi there,
I am trying to design a high speed electric motorcycle (100mph+) with a 1 -
2 mile range, for several reasons - personal learning and interest, to
generate more interest of EV's here in the UK, and for possible competition
use later on.
For example, lets say i use a single ADC L91. Lets presume (for simplicity)
that my batterys have 800A current limited by the controller (from my
understanding, controllers vary the current but not voltage). I understand
that motors deliver peak hp at 0rpm?
No, power is torque multiplied by speed (or voltage multiplied by
current). Current is related to torque and voltage to speed. Series
wound DC Motors naturally produce a high torque at 0 RPM (and low
speeds). So from standstill, the voltage at the motor will be low
(a few volts), and the current high (as high as the controller limit
allows) - this is a small amount of power. Since the voltage at the
battery will be in the 120V area, the current drawn from it will be
small at this stage (i.e. matching the power delivered to the motor,
plus losses).
So the motor will produce peak hp at 0rpm, with maximum current draw.. will
the hp (& therefore current draw) then reduce as motor speed increases?
No, see above.
where you want hp most.. so why no need for a transmission? How do you get
more hp at high rpm..
Provide more voltage.
Just a few extra comments:
- More hp at high rpm: Could also look at a better motor, the ADC
ones aren't really designed for high rpms. Or just use a lower gear
ratio with a bigger motor.
- Controllers do actually vary the voltage, which effectively varies
the current (if you consider the motor to be more or less a resistive
load..)
- 1-2 mile range @ 100mph is an unusual case because that's basically
draining the whole battery in about 1 minute, which is a 60C
discharge rate (as in 1/60th of an hour). Not many batteries can
handle this sort of load - in fact I can only think of one which
comes close:
http://www.a123systems.com/html/products/cells.html
They are pretty expensive (~US$10ea), but 35 of these would give you
a 120 volt pack weighing a little over 5 pounds and able to deliver
around 12kW! (for 1 minute or so..)
Make sure you have life insurance ;)
_________________________________________________________________
Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Gary,
I hope that other members POST with helpful answers for you.
In addition to those, I suggest that you research:
http://electric-boat-association.org.uk
and make contact with: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You may also want to check out the Electric Boat links on:
http://www.boat-links.com/linklists/boatlink-18.html
The Electric Boats of America link
http://www.electricboats.org/
seems to be broken. I hope a member POSTs their contact
information (postal address, tel#, etc.).
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Have a burning question?
Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
bruce parmenter wrote:
> I wanted to buy a Delta-Q charger to charge my 132V pack but as
> you have POSTed, Delta-Q does not offer either higher voltage
> chargers, nor two lower voltage chargers that would charge my
> 132V wet-cell PbSO4 pack in a split-pack charging configuration.
A pair of the 72V chargers would do the job, provided one is loaded with
a 60V algorithm. One would connect across 72V, the other across the
remaining 60V.
As I recall, you are running US125s? We have 60V algorithms for a few
different batteries, but haven't yet released one for the US125s.
> Another issue is when one splits a pack to use multiple chargers,
> you have to total all the individual charger's AC amperage draw.
> It may be more than a 110VAC 20amp outlet will handle.
>
> In your (144VDC pack) case, according to
> http://www.delta-q.com/documents/QuiQ-data-sheet.pdf
> two chargers would draw (2 * 9.5 rms AC amps =) 19amps. Electrical
> code only allows for 80% load on an AC breaker. So to run both
> chargers at the same time you either need two individually
> breaker-ed 110VAC 20 amp outlets, or one 110VAC 30 amps (or higher)
> power source.
Actually, you would need 2 110VAC, 15A circuits (not 20A), or a single
110VAC 30A circuit, or a single 240VAC 15A (or better) circuit to run a
pair of chargers at full power.
The chargers are designed to be compatible with 15A 110VAC outlets, so
they will draw a maximum of 12A from the line. Typical consumption at
peak output is 9A per charger @ 120VAC input, increasing to a maximum of
12A per charger if the line voltage sags sufficiently. Actual data for
a pair of chargers run from a single 120VAC outlet is peak line current
of 18.257A, 2186.8W, 0.998 PF.
With one charger turned down for a 60V pack, the peak (total) input
power drops to about 2004.6W, and at 120VAC the peak line current drops
to 16.7A; just a bit over the 16A maximum you really want to be drawing
from a 120VAC 20A circuit.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have ten orbitals inside the back of my car in a temp install all
grouped together in two rows of five, should there be some spacing
where the two rows meet to allow airflow during charging? Something
like an inch to let the heat up or would the space between them under
the tops be enough as the air flowed out each end of the pack?
Perhaps it does not matter as there no batteries isolated in side the
middle of the pack, just two rows of five touching. Batteries will be
in a rack, over the spare tire well, elevated 4" off of the back
floor and not sealed in a box. There will be a cover but it will be
vented if needed.
Thanks,
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone looked at this one? A three wheel "high class Sparrow" is how it
looks to me....
$45,000 a copy will probably make sure it does NOT succeed...
_http://www.flytheroad.com/_ (http://www.flytheroad.com/)
`
Matt Parkhouse
Colorado Springs, CO
BMW m/c-Golf Cart trike - 48 volts, 30mph on the flat, 35 mile range
1972 VW Van - to be converted this year!
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So, who on the list has used these BattEQ balancers? Who can vouch
for Mick? ;)
Any gotchas other than price?
Matt
On 3/2/07, Mick Abraham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
TiM M said: "What do I need to do different to make a new pack
last longer?"
[Mick says:] Responding to that question, I sent an email to Tim off-list,
regarding the BattEQ(TM) automatic battery balancer which I distribute. I
sent the mail on Monday, 2-26 but did not get back my requested receipt.
Tim: I'm following up through this EVDL channel to make sure you got that
information. Contact me off list if you want me to send it again.
By balancing the battery string during discharge as well as during recharge,
BattEQ reduces the likelihood that "zombies" will develop within the battery
string. It's worth a look. I extend a 30 day return privilege on all my
BattEQ sales but have had no returns so far, and also no product defects so
far. For more information, see the Top Floor of my website.
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
Mike *is* running 252 BB600 NiCds in a single string. He has
over 3000 miles on them since installing them in his truck.
As Mike's and Rod Hower's experiences point out, the voltage peak method
can still work with long strings. It's just that as the number of cells
increases, the chances of it failing to work get larger.
It works best when the cells are all fairly well matched, at the same
states of charge, and the same temperature. The more you deviate from
these conditions, the more likely it is that the charger will miss the
voltage peak due to different cells peaking at different times.
One saving grace is that flooded nicads are fairly tolerant of charging
abuse. They will survive overcharging that would destroy other types of
batteries.
As David Roden stated, amphour counting is a more reliable indicator for
long strings of nicads.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
List,
What is the most common motor used for Ev's. What would this motor be
used for other than Ev's. I am asking because I am in the process of
building my project car and I would like to know the best setup possibly
used or from another piece of machinery. would a electric crain/ pallet jack
motor work? I am sorry for the newbie questions. Thanks to everyone I feel
like I am going to EV school opening my email everyday.
Thanks,
Patrick Andrews
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
_________________________________________________________________
Win a Zunemake MSN® your homepage for your chance to win!
http://homepage.msn.com/zune?icid=hmetagline
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A few questions have been nagging at me as I've watched the FreedomEV
discussions. Maybe Jerry can help with answers. Anyway,
1st How did you get a Solectria Sunrise? I think there were only about 5
made total.
2nd, what does Azure Dynamics think of your project? They've got 19 patents
and probably plenty of Trademarks, and they might be trying still to get a
major partner to put Sunrise in production.
3rd, How the heck can you duplicate the high-tech body that they developed?
They spent millions figuring out how to make that composite body and I don't
understand how an individual could duplicate that effort.
Thanks in advance!
Best regards,
Todd Martin
Owner, 1997 Solectria Force
---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
I think you'd be better off simply removing the weak battery. By the
time a battery needs "propping up" it's pretty much shot. Trying
to keep it running is likely to result in an acid volcano.
You might think so; but my experience has proven otherwise.
BCI defines "end of life" as when a battery falls to 80% of its rated
capacity. They do this for several reasons that relate to how normal
batteries are used.
1. The optimum depth of discharge for longest life is around 50-80%.
So, commercial users pick a battery size that is 80% discharged
at the end of a day's work (sizing it for 50% means they are
"buying too much battery").
2. When a battery in the pack has fallen to 80% capacity, it gets
100% discharged to do the same day's work as a new battery.
If you keep using this battery, it will die very quickly from
excessively deep discharges! So, they replace it when its
capacity is only 80% of new.
3. Most chargers are pretty simple and stupid. They are setup for a
brand new battery, and don't adapt themselves to the lower charging
voltage needs of an older battery. So, when a battery has fallen
to 80% capacity, the charger will overcharge it on every cycle.
So, the battery with 80% capacity left gets replaced because it hasn't
got enough capacity to do a full day's work any more, and the charger is
going to beat it to death soon anyway.
This situation is less likely to be present with an on-the-road EV.
1. EVer's may choose to only discharge to 50% per day. This greatly
extends life, since you can use batteries until they fall to only
50% of original capacity.
2. EVers may use a less aggressive charging algorithm. If it doesn't
seriously overcharge old batteries, they last a lot longer.
3. EV's may have a battery balancing system that shuttles charge
between batteries. By "propping up" a weak battery with energy
from the stronger ones, range does not suffer, and the weak
batteries will survive much longer. This reduces battery cost
per mile.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
On 27 Feb 2007 at 12:28, Roger Stockton wrote:
Trojan
product apparently doesn't behave this way, so if you do not have a charger
that can satisfy the USBMC charge requirements, you might be better off
using Trojan batteries.
In years past, I've had good results using USBMC batteries with Lester
Lestronic II chargers. And in fact what Lesters do sounds pretty close to
USBMC's specs : dv/dt algorithm, bulk charge at around 25 amps, finish at 5
to 8 amps (depending on model). I wonder if this bog-standard golf car
charger might indeed have been in the battery's designers' minds.
Likewise, I've gotten my best life from floodeds with a Lester charger
with the dv/dt algorithm. It tends to adapt itself as the batteries age.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If someone wants to post the long story they can. The short story is that
they have an original Sunrise mold.
BTW - the Freedom EV and Sunrise are two different projects being taken on
by two different people on the list, although they do help each other out.
damon
From: Todd Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Freedom EV Questions
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 14:12:23 -0800 (PST)
A few questions have been nagging at me as I've watched the FreedomEV
discussions. Maybe Jerry can help with answers. Anyway,
1st How did you get a Solectria Sunrise? I think there were only about
5 made total.
2nd, what does Azure Dynamics think of your project? They've got 19
patents and probably plenty of Trademarks, and they might be trying still
to get a major partner to put Sunrise in production.
3rd, How the heck can you duplicate the high-tech body that they
developed? They spent millions figuring out how to make that composite
body and I don't understand how an individual could duplicate that effort.
Thanks in advance!
Best regards,
Todd Martin
Owner, 1997 Solectria Force
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
damon henry wrote:
I finally decided I have to try playing with a contactor controller, so
I bought some surplus contactors off ebay to give a whirl.
Even though they seem simple, there are 100 year's worth of subtleties.
It would be worthwhile to look at some old contactor controllers, and
see how they built them.
There are physical placement tricks to make them easier to wire. There
are lots of equivalent circuits; but some have advantages like insuring
that the motor is completely disconnected during charging, or that
multiple contacts always break current so none has to switch high
voltage, etc.
The sequencing is usually done with mechanical devices, like
microswitches on a cam.
Safety interlocks take the form of "ladder logic", which is equivalent
to integrated circuit logic gates. Extra voltage-sensing and
current-sensing relays are sometimes added to prevent operator errors.
For instance, you might not be able to energize the 72v step of a
36v/72v series/parallel contactor until the motor armature voltage
exceeds 35v to pull in an "enable high speed" relay.
All the usual contact protection circuits also apply. They can include
freewheel diodes, RC snubbers, coil "sluggers", etc.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Matt Kenigson wrote:
So, who on the list has used these BattEQ balancers? Who can vouch
for Mick? ;)
We debated this topic a few months ago. The BattEQ is based on the
flying capacitor circuit -- it switches a capacitor across one battery
to charge to its voltage, then switches it to an adjacent battery to
charge/discharge to its voltage. In this way, it balances by
transferring charge between batteries.
When I tried this on my own, I found that this technique worked but was
not very effective. The balancing current was very low, and the
efficiency was low.
I have not tried Mick's BattEQ, and so can't say if it is any different
or better than the circuit I tried. I did offer to test some, and Mick
was willing to help; but then I've gotten swamped with work and wasn't
able to actually do it.
If someone has a BattEQ and is willing to do some testing, I think it
would be very useful.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
I have LA50-12 here for testing, will give news as soon as i have results.
Cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait du volant, quel carburant choisiriez-vous
?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: Battery Woes
So, who on the list has used these BattEQ balancers? Who can vouch
for Mick? ;)
Any gotchas other than price?
Matt
On 3/2/07, Mick Abraham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
TiM M said: "What do I need to do different to make a new pack
last longer?"
[Mick says:] Responding to that question, I sent an email to Tim
off-list,
regarding the BattEQ(TM) automatic battery balancer which I distribute. I
sent the mail on Monday, 2-26 but did not get back my requested receipt.
Tim: I'm following up through this EVDL channel to make sure you got that
information. Contact me off list if you want me to send it again.
By balancing the battery string during discharge as well as during
recharge,
BattEQ reduces the likelihood that "zombies" will develop within the
battery
string. It's worth a look. I extend a 30 day return privilege on all my
BattEQ sales but have had no returns so far, and also no product defects
so
far. For more information, see the Top Floor of my website.
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
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I did mix things up when I posted , not while
charging. As the temperature went up, the finish
voltage was reduced, and increased as the temperature
dropped. I just checked to make sure.
Mick e-mailed me about Battery EQ balancers. Has
anybody used these? They seem a little pricey, $250
for 4 battery module, that works out to $1500 for a
pack of 24,
TiM
____________________________________________________________________________________
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Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
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--- Begin Message ---
In my earlier post I described charging SAFT STM-180
batteries used in the Dodge TEVan. I also counted
amp*hours and did an overcharge after the voltage peak
I observed (every time in fact). Two things should be
noted, even if I didn't see the voltage peak I would
still know something was wrong by counting Amp*hours.
2. I have very little experience with BB600 cells,
although I do own about 100 Cells (I did have more,
but sold some to people on this list). So, my
experience with voltage peak does not necessarily mean
it will be reliable and repeatable with the BB600
cells.
I have more testing to do before I can make that
observation. And as Lee and David point out this
voltage peak is less likely to be seen as the number
of series cells increases.
Rod
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Cor van de Water wrote:
> > Mike *is* running 252 BB600 NiCds in a single
> string. He has
> > over 3000 miles on them since installing them in
> his truck.
>
> As Mike's and Rod Hower's experiences point out, the
> voltage peak method
> can still work with long strings. It's just that as
> the number of cells
> increases, the chances of it failing to work get
> larger.
>
> It works best when the cells are all fairly well
> matched, at the same
> states of charge, and the same temperature. The more
> you deviate from
> these conditions, the more likely it is that the
> charger will miss the
> voltage peak due to different cells peaking at
> different times.
>
> One saving grace is that flooded nicads are fairly
> tolerant of charging
> abuse. They will survive overcharging that would
> destroy other types of
> batteries.
>
> As David Roden stated, amphour counting is a more
> reliable indicator for
> long strings of nicads.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
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On 1 Mar 2007 at 7:20, Ralph Merwin wrote:
> The Rudman Regs do have temperature compensation for the voltage set
> point. It does assume that the reg is at the same temperature as the
> battery it is monitoring. The surrounding air temperature may well
> be different.
At one time (10 years ago?) there were some shunt regs available that bolted
to a battery post. I think these may have been designed by Mark Hanson
(Mark please correct me if this is wrong). I don't think the old design had
TC, but wouldn't the battery post be a better place to sense battery temp
than the air around the battery?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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On 1 Mar 2007 at 21:17, Mark Brueggemann wrote:
> I don't believe you'll see widespread acceptance of EV's until
> they are nearly form, fit and function to ICE's.
But EVs >are< already widely accepted. They dominate the golf car world,
and are strong as industrial burden carriers. In the road-EV category, EVs
sell fairly well as scooters and bikes. This last category - relatively
cheap scooters and bikes - is the great success story for road EVs.
The key is that the above vehicles serve functions for which range
limitations and crashworthiness are largely immaterial. Safety just isn't
much of an issue for golf cars and burden carriers.
It is, in a sense, for E-scooters and E-bikes, since they are road EVs. But
safety isn't inherent in the vehicle type, so there's not much customer
expectation that he or she will be protected in a collision. Also, they're
cheap, so they're not expected to be as functional as a family car. Safety,
range, speed, and comfort aren't really on the radar for these guys.
This is also true to some extent with sports cars. The typical customer
isn't as concerned with safety as the family car buyer. Sports car buyers
seem to put more emphasis on recreation and less on practical, functional,
and safety concerns.
So, I think the EV startups trying to market sports cars have the right
idea. They are drawing potential market share from the scooters and E-
bikes, rather than from family cars.
The so-called PHEVs are more likely to draw market share from the family
ICEs. The issues we're discussing will be addressed in that market segment,
because the customers will demand it.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 1 Mar 2007 at 15:17, Lee Hart wrote:
> And, sorry to say, a very large part of the market just doesn't care
> about safety.
Yes, but other than those interested in 2-wheelers and probably performance
cars, how much interest have they in EVs? I suspect the answer is "not
much." I could be wrong, of course, but I don't think that the typical auto
consumer who has no interest in safety, like the one who places undue
consideration on bulk and size, is likely to be very interested in an EV.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
The 9" GE motor that was used on many EV's back in the
early 90's was actually the same used for 3,000 to
5,000 lb forklift motors rated at 36 and 48V. The
only difference was changing the number of turns in
the series field winding (using smaller gauge wire
with more turns).
I don't think anything else was changed, including
insulation, bearings etc.
If you want a really good high voltage DC motor with
upgrades that will help on an EV, have Jim Husted
modify it! He's learning new tricks all the time
thanks to the abuse that EV racers like John Wayland
and Bill Dube give their motors.
Like John says, we break things so you don't have to!
Rod
--- Patrick Andrews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> List,
>
> What is the most common motor used for Ev's.
> What would this motor be
> used for other than Ev's. I am asking because I am
> in the process of
> building my project car and I would like to know the
> best setup possibly
> used or from another piece of machinery. would a
> electric crain/ pallet jack
> motor work? I am sorry for the newbie questions.
> Thanks to everyone I feel
> like I am going to EV school opening my email
> everyday.
>
> Thanks,
> Patrick Andrews
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Win a Zune��make MSN� your homepage for your
chance
> to win!
> http://homepage.msn.com/zune?icid=hmetagline
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doubt if I could have made it, short of winning the Lottery a week ago.
But more than that, if we do not get wind of these things, either from
the EVDL, or CalCars News, or Google EV News, or Google Hybrid News, or
what ever.... How can we hope to attend...
Just read the POST from the fellow saying we should have a
EVDL-Calandar-List. I LIKE that a lot.... Good idea.
Just a place to POST up-comming EVents that no one should miss.
PS: WHY all the Band Width on Compressed Air ! Don't we all know it
just is not economical ??? Or do you all just like to show everyone
that you KNOW it does not work well... Like
" I know it doesn't work because..." and
" I also know it doesn't work because..." and
" I know more reasons than YOU that it doesn't work .."
and so on and so on..... I think the whole thing is O T !
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Patrick
Most of the DC motors being used are the NetGain and
Advance motors in the 8" to 11" diameter sized motors.
Some get by on 7" motors so a lot depends on what
you're looking for and the budget you have.
I've been known to hack a forklift motor up from time
to time so there are a number of lift motors that can
work really well. I use the 6.7" pallet Jack drive
motors to build up the motors I donate to the NEDRA
events and would make a decent MC motor but are to
small for a full size conversion.
I'm reading here that either your budget or curiousity
leans you toward using a salvage lift motor so I
thought I'd list some things to look for and to avoid.
Try and look for a motor in that 7" to 11" range.
Look for 36 to 48 volt data tags, Lower volt motors
will draw a higher current than you'd like for range.
They would do okay for a low voltage city driver
though.
Look for a shaft that can be used as is or can be
modified easy.
Look for a motor with 4 terminals or at least check it
for proper rotation. It's a bummer to read when
people buy motors only to find it spins the wrong way
and they can't change it very easily.
GE motors have expensive parts to replace so I'm more
partial to Prestolite and Advance motors. Again it's
a bummer to see people buy a 100 dollar core and they
find out the brush set runs 130.00 lol. I should say
I advise against the 7" GE's, the larger ones are a
really good motor and are worth the brush investment.
Bring a meter with you and check the motor for
grounds.
Look inside the motor to make sure it looks good (no
dark insulation).
Plan on going through it and replacing the bearings
and probably turning the comm. and changing the
brushes, that is as budget allows.
Anyway hope this helps. Feel free to send me a pic of
anything you find, I'd be more than happy to give my
input. There are a lot of diamonds in the rough out
there to be found.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
http://www.hitorqueelectric.com
--- Patrick Andrews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> List,
>
> What is the most common motor used for Ev's.
> What would this motor be
> used for other than Ev's. I am asking because I am
> in the process of
> building my project car and I would like to know the
> best setup possibly
> used or from another piece of machinery. would a
> electric crain/ pallet jack
> motor work? I am sorry for the newbie questions.
> Thanks to everyone I feel
> like I am going to EV school opening my email
> everyday.
>
> Thanks,
> Patrick Andrews
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Win a Zunemake MSN® your homepage for your chance
> to win!
> http://homepage.msn.com/zune?icid=hmetagline
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
--- End Message ---
