EV Digest 6512
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: My next EV project, or Paul goes Datsun
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Mick's answer to Evan Tuer RE: BattEQ test
by "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: electric power newbie
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Motor shafts (was: Race Preps for DC Motors)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: My next EV project, or Paul goes Datsun
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Model 100 computers
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Better Data Logging Options?
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Better Data Logging Options?
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Now, I am more confused about EV quality batteries than I have ever
been in the last 10 years
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) PIC help
by brian baumel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: PIC help
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: My next EV project, or Paul goes Datsun
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Clarification on my high and low voltage on the Festiva
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Unsubscribe
by Malcolm Chaddock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: My next EV project, or Paul goes Datsun
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Motor shafts (was: Race Preps for DC Motors)
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Motor mods
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: My next EV project, or Paul goes Datsun
by "Shawn Waggoner, FLEAA" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Measuring Cable Resistance
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: My next EV project, or Paul goes Datsun
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Re: Better Data Logging Options?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Paul,
Perhaps I can weigh in with my 17 years experience with a 1977 Datsun Z. The
first thing to check on the older Datsuns is the frame. They were built with
a small frail frame of relatively poor steel and even a small amount of rust
will deteriorate the frame strength significantly.
Although my car was exposed to winters in Chicago, the frame reached the
failure point with only 77K miles on the odometer. Many examples exist of
these
vehicles folding into a flat V shape when crossing a rough railroad track. EV
level weights would make this an even bigger potential issue.
Test.....my car would exhibit the frame softness when jacking it up on a
simple scissor type jack.
Mike Bachand
Denver Electric Vehicle Council (DEVC) - Colorado Chapter of the EAA
1994 Kawasaki Ninja EV
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Evan Tuer said:
"I read the "test report" on your website
(http://www.abrahamsolar.com/framespages/topfloor/batteq/testreport.htm),
and with equal respect, I suggest that the criteria you state above
can be very misleading. Measured capacity can improve dramatically
over several charge/discharge cycles without any magical black boxes
attached, especially if you are starting with cells that have been
sitting unexercised for a while."
Mick says: I stand by everything I've written. My instrumentation is good,
the procedures are consistent, and the number of other variables is reduced
as well as I can in an informal setting. Most of my before/after tests have
occurred on the same day, usually at a client's inaccessible jobsite where I
want to get finished and get gone. A same day before/after test is more
likely to understate the BattEQ benefit instead of overstating it because
the balancer doesn't have days to complete the fine leveling process before
the second test.
In every before/after test I've done the amp hour delivery before low
voltage shutdown has increased, and I've been doing this since 2005.
Sometimes the increase is small, and sometimes it's bigger. The most
profound amp-hour increase occurs when some of the batteries in the string
are much healthier than the others.
I don't claim that BattEQ(TM) will increase ah delivery on a new string; I
don't even bother testing for that. On messed up batteries, the ah increase
is sometimes not enough to keep them in service. The BattEQ effect is
neither magic nor slight of hand. The extra energy is there all the time in
the stronger monoblocs, but we can't extract that because the low voltage
shutoff occurs when the zombies in the string drop sharply in voltage. By
pumping energy out of the stronger monoblocs BattEQ reduces their voltage,
but it simultaneously increases the voltage on the zombies to a greater
extent (by pulling them above the avalanche point). The result is that the
end to end string voltage remains above the cutoff point for a longer
interval of time.
I also stand by my opinion that amp-hour delivery for the string is the most
important metric for the benefit of any battery management solution. In the
EV world ah delivery prior to low voltage shutdown translates directly into
range. Partial restoration of diminished range is a big deal. Preventing the
premature loss of range is an even bigger deal, but it will take years of
field experience before BattEQ can make a claim to that effect.
Theoretically, the same voltage leveling effect that helps restore partial
capacity to older battery strings should prevent new strings from entering
zombie mode so soon.
Evan said:
"You would need to have a very controlled environment (temperature
controlled, and a battery where the capacity has stabilised to a very
repeatable figure) for this to be meaningful."
Mick says: In my very same document which Evan read, I made the following
disclosures: "These are isolated tests and they're far from scientific.
Also: I am not an "impartial third party", because I distribute BattEQ to
the alternate energy industry. Additional testing is needed, both in
"laboratory settings" and in the real world. I encourage interested parties
of all stripes to get their hands on some weak batteries, build a capacity
measuring rig, and report their BattEQ results."
The above quoted remarks show my commitment to full disclosure and open
inquiry, but I don't know anyone who could or would undertake testing in a
lab environment. High precision testing would be expensive if contracted
out, and I suspect the additional knowledge gained would not be worth the
cost; it's a matter of diminishing returns. One does not have to be NASA in
order to make useful observations. Mere mortals can learn a lot about
batteries without the need for a "very controlled environment".
Evan quoted my somewhat surprising test in which the amp hour delivery
increased 6.5 times from before to after. He then said:
"As the old saying goes, if something is too good to be true, it probably
is."
Mick says: I was reluctant to post the results of that test for fear that
people would mock me. These are the most dramatic results I have seen, and
that's because two of the batteries were much more healthy than the other
two. Nevertheless, the numbers are bona fide, and I shouldn't have to
discard data just to avoid mockery.
I look forward to Philippe's before/after capacity numbers, and I invite
others to undertake similar tests. The best candidates for range restoration
are middle aged batteries which have lost some of their original capacity
but which are not totally ruined. Older unbalanced strings are a good way to
verify the energy transfer of a BattEQ unit and to see some quantifiable
capacity increase, but the best way to deploy any battery health product is
by installing it when the batteries are healthy & new.
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The motor does have a intake for
> external fan but being a starter generator I am a little worried that
> continuous use as a motor may not be something it is capable of doing.
They are generally under continuous use when operating as a generator.
The difference between a motor and a generator is simply which direction
the energy is going.
However, from what I've read Air Craft starter/generators are typically
not very efficient. It's going to be turning a lot of your energy into
heat, so you need to get rid of the heat.
The guys that used to race E-boats would often dunk the whole motor in the
water after a race. You might want to keep that in mind as a method to
quickly cool down the motor if you do over heat it.
I
> am
> not well versed on controllers but my understanding is that they switch
> off
> and on to reduce voltage to motor as required.What happens to a motor that
> is too powerful for its application and is always being used at say 60%
> load. If this were a 100V motor would it be continuously running on 60V
> and
> would this damage the motor ...Gary
Nope. Actually you can probably run your motor at MORE than the name
plate rating. The voltage rating on a motor is just one point on the
spectrum of voltages & currents that the motor can operate at.
Often motor manufacturers will take the EXACT same motor and put two
different rated voltages on it for two different customers.
There are basically two things that can damage a motor: getting it too
hot, and spinning too fast.
The current through a motor causes heat. As long as you can get rid of
the heat, no problem. The higher the current through the motor, the more
heat it generates. At some point the motor gets hotter than you can cool
it off. When this happens the motor starts to get hotter, and hotter.
Once it gets hot enough the insulation starts to melt/fry and then you get
shorts in the motor, and then the windings, etc. start to melt.
Now here's the bad news, the ammount of heat generated goes up as the
SQUARE of the current. Double the current and you get four times as much
heat. So running the motor at under it's rated current is no problem,
running at OVER it's rated current can get you in trouble. You can
generally do if for a short time (The motor has a lot of mass and takes a
while to heat up), but the higher the current, the less time you can do
this.
It's best to play it safe and stay under the rated current.
Now for the RPM. I'm not sure what kind of RPM these motors can take,
perhaps Lee will step in and give his opinion. But at a guess I'd say
it's probably 5,000 to 6,000 RPM.
Keep it under that, and you have no problem. Let it go over that and the
motor goes into self-disassembly mode. Not pretty. Motors aren't very
smart and I haven't seen one yet that can take itself apart in a manner
where it's easy to put it back together.
I believe your motor operates as a series wound motor in the starter mode,
and a shunt wound motor/generator in the generator mode.
If this is the case, then I'd run your motor as a shunt wound motor. It's
a lot easier to control (and the controllers are cheaper) plus you don't
have to worry about over-revving it so much. In fact you could probably
get away with using a cheap E-bike controller for controlling the field
voltage.
Can you post the manufacturer and part number from the motor? It would
make it a lot easier to suggest a method for controlling the motor. Post
everything that's on the name plate.
*******************
Series wound motors
*******************
For most motors the RPM is related to the voltage. Double the voltage and
you double the RPM. Series wound motors are a little different. The
voltage/RPM relationship is only true for a given load. Reduce (or
remove) the load and the RPMs go up. Power the motor up with it's rated
voltage and no load and it will happily try to spin up to near infinite
RPMs. Unfortunately, long before it gets to infinity, parts of the motor
will decide to relocate.
The moral here is not to power the motor up without a load unless you are
using very low voltage. With a low enough voltage the friction in the
motor is enough of a load to keep it from overspinning.
Of course the problem is: how low is "low" voltage. In your case I'd
probably start with 6 volts and see if it sounds like the motor is going
to spin too fast. With only 6 volts it will take the motor a bit to get
up to speed.
If it turns REALLY slowly, then you can probably get away with 12V.
If it starts to pick up speed and sounds like it's going to keep picking
up speed, then disconnect and try a lower voltage.
The above is just for testing. Once you have a prop connected, you
shouldn't have to worry about it as long as the prop is in the water.
Hmm, unless you start to cavitate. If that happens, and your voltage is
high enough, you might get into over-rev territory. I can't say for sure
since I'm not even close to playing a boating expert on TV.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 9:38 AM
> Subject: Re: electric power newbie
>
>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>> I'm starting to build a small electric propulsion system . I
>>> have a 24V Westinghouse aircraft starter-generator which were sold
>>> by Princess Auto of Winnipeg at one time. It is 8 pole series
>>> wound, around 3 Kw I believe, so should be ample power for my
>>> application. I haven't been able to get any specs on this machine
>>> so I'm not sure if its rated for continuous use or not. Does
>>> anyone have any info for this motor?
>>
>> You'll have to provide more information for us to be able to tell what
>> you
>> have. What does the nameplate on it say? What is its size and weight?
>>
>> 3kw is only about 3 horsepower; that's not much. OK for a golf cart or
>> small motorcycle, but not a car.
>>
>> Most of these units are designed for continuous duty at high rpm, with a
>> very strong airflow for cooling.
>>
>>> I'm also not sure if drive will slow the motor down to the 900 or so
>>> RPM it would like to run at. Maybe the controller will take care of
>>> this.
>>
>> A controller can make it run slower, but you also decrease power. If it
>> produces 3kw at full speed, it will only produce 1.5kw at half speed,
>> etc.
>>
>>> Is it possible to reverse this motor?
>>
>> Yes, but they usually require some disassembly and internal wiring
>> changes.
>>
>> --
>> Ring the bells that still can ring
>> Forget the perfect offering
>> There is a crack in everything
>> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.6/709 - Release Date: 3/3/2007
>> 8:12 AM
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HI-
One the advantages of using Bill's motor drive system is that the compounded
forces of the dual motor drive are concentrated in the hub of the double
single
sprocket. This hub is > 3" for a 16 tooth sprocket. FT.
> [Original Message]
> From: Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Date: 3/4/2007 9:15:30 PM
> Subject: Motor shafts (was: Race Preps for DC Motors)
>
> I think that you use stronger shaft material and keep the same size
> shaft. You just need to pay.
>
> I'm not sure what standard motor shafts are made out of, but judging
> from the ease of cutting and drilling, they aren't the very strongest
> possible alloy.
>
> You could use 4340 chrome-moly steel. It is commonly available and
> has a tensile strength of 160,000 psi. If you wanted to go exotic,
> you could use maraging steel. You can machine it like stainless in
> its annealed state. Then you heat treat it (just bake it) and its
> tensile strength goes up over 350,000 psi (350 alloy.)
>
> It isn't cheap, of course:
> http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?id=912&step=2
> Notice that 1 inch shaft of 350 alloy maraging steel costs about $170
> per foot. (One inch 4340 steel is about $11 per foot.)
>
> You would just need to replace the shaft in the "drive end"
> motor. Don't get them mixed up later, however. :-)
>
> Bill Dube'
>
>
>
> >Keith at Dutchmans and I go around on this a lot. He
> >always wants to put in a bigger shaft diameter but I'm
> >always telling him that's all I can fit in, lmao!
> >
> >. I believe
> >more inline twins would be used if the shaft issue
> >wasn't there. Comparing Waylands twin motor to Otmars
> >twin set up shows just how many ways there is to skin
> >a cat.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> For tires, the 14" Prius/Insight tires are
> about the same dia, 22.5"
Any idea what make/model the Prius tires are?
I just replaced my no longer made Goodyear Conquests
with Michelins's but it was a struggle to find anyone
that had any idea what LRR was or what the actual
tire spec's were. Would like a basis of comparison
agains the Prius tires.
Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had forgotten about those! We used to use them in an industrial setting for
quick-and-dirty process monitoring. Slow as molasses but pretty well sealed
and could communicate via RS-232.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Oh, for Pete's sake... my E-meter data logger BASIC
> program started life on a Radio Shack model 100 laptop,
You're comparing apples and carrots, Lee. I've also written
simple data acquisition in BASIC, and run them from minimal
hardware. Just thought I'd offer the option of something
a bit more substantial than just number gathering, parsing
and saving to a file. I do LabView for a living, and while
it wouldn't even run on a P75 I've run it on sub 1GHz machines,
which anymore are throwaways. Thus, the modern equivalent of
a Model 100.
Along with the overhead of having to run Winblows/Linux and
LabView you gain a huge processing and I/O capability. It could
run your entire EV if you'd like it to, and play MP3's through
the stereo while doing it. It could take GPS data while you
drive and match it to the currents you draw along your route.
It could display data on each battery, motor parameters and
current and instantaneous power useage and calculate your
remaining range on the fly, and store the data for long term
statistics and analysis. While not a trivial programming
platform to master initially, it's simple enough that for basic
I/O, user interface creation and data manipulation that you
could have a working virtual instrument operational within a
few hours. All dynamic, reconfigurable and expandable as your
skills increase and needs change. So you wouldn't be bound
to just gathering the data for post processing, you can be
gathering, crunching and displaying any data you like, in any
format you wish, in real time. To me, that'd be worth the price
of admission to set up a mobile PC and not have to write
applications from scratch in C or whatever. There was a group
in Florida that was using LabView real time to gather data for
their EV racer, and I found another reference in the EVDL archives
of a LabView app that interfaced to Zilla controllers:
http://www.suncoast.net/fastrack.htm
This application demonstrates the ability of LabView to create
a freely distributable executable. You wouldn't need a license
to run these programs others have created, just a similar
hardware platform.
Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Could Labview be used as a BMS for lithium cells?
It can do whatever you can interface it to. If whatever your
doing can be read/controlled with a logic or analog signal,
it can be processed by LabView. Depending on the I/O method,
the overhead of the operating system, bus/processor speed
limitations and other processes executing at the same time there
can be latency issues but for most acquisition and control
processes that execute in the order of 1 microsecond or greater
it's pretty close to real time. You can bump that up if you're
willing to move to specialized I/O hardware.
Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh gee I thought you had flooded. Used batteries are great to learn with.
If you get only 12 Optimas or Exides. "raise that voltage for more range
and power" You might consider individual chargers for each battery. This
will eliminate the regulators & give a very cost effective & safe charge.
The only worry is that one or more chargers might go bad. That is no
different than loosing one regulator. Been there and done that. Lawence
Rhodes.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
greetings everyone,
I am almost done with building a custom speedometer
for my EV. I am have a small problem with it thought,
one pin to be exact. I am using a PIC16F872 portA is
all inputs, port B and C are directly coupled to some
7447 display drivers(3 digits, 3 display drivers). my
problem is in portB.3 this pin will just not toggle!!!
I have tried 2 different PIC16F872 and a PIC16F876A
none will toggle PORTB.3.
I have programmed it so that ports B and C blink, but
that one pin just will not toggle on any occassion. am
I forgetting to disable/enable something, like what is
done to turn off the ADC on portA (ADCON1=7)??
the data sheet says something about PORTB.3 is a I/O
or a PGM...some type of medium voltage programming
mode.
some one please help. right now I'm using a bike
speedometer and it sucks.
thank you,
Brian B.
81' Bradley GTII
____________________________________________________________________________________
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
See chapter 11.18 of the datasheet. pin 3 of the chip is the flash
programming pin used for in-circuit programming. It defaults to being
set to this mode from factory defaults.
If you dont do incircuit updates, clear the LVP bit in the
configuration word and if works as a GPIO pin again.
For details, Read The Fine Manual, especially that chapter 11.18 :)
-kert
On 3/5/07, brian baumel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
greetings everyone,
I am almost done with building a custom speedometer
for my EV. I am have a small problem with it thought,
one pin to be exact. I am using a PIC16F872 portA is
all inputs, port B and C are directly coupled to some
7447 display drivers(3 digits, 3 display drivers). my
problem is in portB.3 this pin will just not toggle!!!
I have tried 2 different PIC16F872 and a PIC16F876A
none will toggle PORTB.3.
I have programmed it so that ports B and C blink, but
that one pin just will not toggle on any occassion. am
I forgetting to disable/enable something, like what is
done to turn off the ADC on portA (ADCON1=7)??
the data sheet says something about PORTB.3 is a I/O
or a PGM...some type of medium voltage programming
mode.
some one please help. right now I'm using a bike
speedometer and it sucks.
thank you,
Brian B.
81' Bradley GTII
____________________________________________________________________________________
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark and All,
The Prius and now Insight are Bridgestone
RE92 165-65's I think. If you ask for Prius or the Insight
tires in Bridgestone, they will show up on the replacement
charts they have.
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: My next EV project, or Paul goes Datsun
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 07:00:11 -0800 (PST)
>--- jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> For tires, the 14" Prius/Insight tires are
>> about the same dia, 22.5"
>
>Any idea what make/model the Prius tires are?
>I just replaced my no longer made Goodyear Conquests
>with Michelins's but it was a struggle to find anyone
>that had any idea what LRR was or what the actual
>tire spec's were. Would like a basis of comparison
>agains the Prius tires.
>
>Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
>Albuquerque, NM
>S-10 EV
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I didn't see the used AGM part. You are probably doing ok for that pack.
Remember a fresh pack will do much better at lower voltages. Older
batteries will sag more. However you don't want to take your batteries down
below 50% anyway if you can help it but if you do AGM will do better.. If
you can get away with only a few miles range then go for the agm's. If you
don't have many hills an option might be to go to a 72v flooded system and
downgrade your controller. This is only effective on fairly flat terrain.
You'll then have a 20 mile useful range. Using other chemistries requires
BMS and quite a bit of money. Don't forget to check the free running of
your drivetrain. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ev" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: Clarification on my high and low voltage on the Festiva
> Some things that might help. Adjust the timing of your motor forward.
> Properly inflate your tires. Some of us run regular tires at 40psi. If
you
> have 44psi tires fully inflate them. Check alignment. Check brake drag.
> Add synthetic oil to your transmission. In your case I think it runs on
> ATF. Use synthetic ATF. If you can put LRR tires on that is EVen better.
> You are at 100 vdc taking your pack down to about 50% DOD. Your Festiva
is
> lighter than a VW Rabbit by a bit so it should be fairly peppy. If you
went
> over 30 miles and came up with this voltage you are doing very good. I
> suspect you got between 10 & 20 miles. Not so great. Lawrence Rhodes....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Powers" <>
> To: "ev" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 8:31 AM
> Subject: Clarification on my high and low voltage on the Festiva
>
>
> > 96 V pack of AGM.
> >
> > I fully charge and get about 105 V. That is OK.
> >
> > I run it until is starts slowing down, poor performance. I measure
the
> pack (not under load) after I stop, and it is around 100 V. Then, it
> bounces back to about 101 V after a few hours. Still, the perofrmance is
> very bad, and I can't drive it in that state.
> >
> > As for the inverter / charger plan, I have the parts, but not yet
> installed.
> >
> > Why not just 8 of the 120 Ah 12 V batts for $65 ea? They won't fit in
> the car because they are group 29. I can only fit the 2 extra in the
back.
> Then, it is overloaded. They have 80 AH flooded, $63 / ea. I don't know
> how well thy will hold up. Warrenty on 80 AH is 12 months, 18 months on
120
> AH, so I went with 120 AH.
> >
> > My whole throry is that the batts have pleanty of energy still in
them,
> I just can't get it out of them because unless they are hot off the
charger,
> my performance is very bad. The aux pack / inverter / charger just keept
> the SOC higher that's all.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers and get answers from real
> people who know.
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of jerryd
Sent: March 5, 2007 2:51 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: My next EV project, or Paul goes Datsun
Hi Paul and All,
You have a couple things going for you. The
engine, other ICE weight was fairly high in these so it will
drop a fair amount when you take them out.
For tires, the 14" Prius/Insight tires are
about the same dia, 22.5" so with some $49 mags from Pep
Boys with universal bolt patterns give you a combined
tire/rim weight of just 25 lbs each with excellent LRR and
saving a few more pounds.
I'd go with twin motors and axe the trans for
more battery room, eff. Either mount them where the trans
was or on the rear end, belted.
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: My next EV project, or Paul goes Datsun
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 17:10:49 -0800
>After a successful search for just the right donor car I
>have my next EV project, a 1966 Datsun 411 wagon. I had a
>preference for a early small sedan, but its not often you
>get a chance to buy a 41 year old car with only 92,000
>miles on it. I'm hoping to hear your ideas on how to help
>it meet my needs. I put up a quickie page with links to
>some photos of it at:
>
><http://paul-g.home.comcast.net/next.htm>.
>
>My goal is to build a vehicle for my commute and local
>errands. My commute is short, around 8 miles round trip
>with about 1/2 of it freeway miles (and yes, I expect to
>keep up.)
>
>What I have in mind is a small pack of AGMs and a suitable
>motor feeding the stock 4 speed gearbox (its in great
>shape.) This old car is a bit heavy, at around 2100 lb. It
>is also not the greatest on battery room. The under hood
>area is about 24 inches by 24 inches and naturally not all
>of it is available for batteries (mostly the master
>cylinder cuts into it a little.) In the back, where the
>spare tire sits now with the fuel tank underneath, I can
>create a space around 29 inches by 24 inches and keep the
>stock load floor in place. Front and rear, depth is not an
>issue. I'm targeting a pack voltage between 120 and 156
>volts. Initially I was thinking about using group 31 AGMs,
>but shape of the available space hints that group 34 AGMs
>(such as the standard YT Optima or Exide Orbital battery)
>may fit better. I'm open to ideas.
>
>I want to get a new set of wheels and tires on it before I
>tear out the ICE. Right now its running on 3 P165/80R13
>tires (complete with cracking side walls) and an old
>5.60-13 bias-ply whitewall tire on the left front corner
>(that made for some "interesting" handling on the
>freeway.) Wheel selection is somewhat limited but the bolt
>pattern and required offset is the same as a Geo Metro (4
>lug on a 4.5 inch pattern, about +38 offset.) My options
>are either 13 inch with the same P-metric tire size or 14
>inch with either P175/70R14 or P185/65R15. Anything larger
>than that could present some rear tire fit issues (the
>rear fender wells are designed to maximize the back seat.)
>Ideas here to minimize wheel weight and tire rolling
>resistance are welcome (but
> >$200 each Panasport wheels are a bit rich for me.)
>
>Enough of me talking. Please check it out and give me your
>ideas!
>
>Paul "neon" G.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah the old Datsun wagons. I had one.(a 67) I didn't consider it because of
weight but it's not much more than my Aspire & it is all metal. Real simple
drive train. There are a couple of transmissions that fit. Yours might EVen
have the transmission dipstick infront of the shifter. There is the funky
cardboard holder under the glove box but you can fab one out of ABS to
replace it when it disintergrates. These cars have a rear seat area and
hidden cargo space around the tire that are covered with metal. I used to
get a fairly big tool box back there. These cars are made to hold a lot of
weight as cargo. The rear tray EVen has a little rod to hold it up while
you get the spare tire out. The back of the Seat is metal and when you put
it down the whole back of the wagon is flat as a pancake. It you got rid of
the back seat I bet you could get 120v of flooded with extensive battery
boxes. The stock covers would work for that Wayland stock look. If you want
to keep the back seat then your AGM option would be needed. Good luck.
These vehicles are simple and durable. The stock motor was a copy of an MG
motor and you could EVen bolt the NIssan head on an MG which many did
because the Nissan head was a better part than the stock MG head. If you
could get 14 inch tires I bet some B381's would fit. After selling mine
around 1982 a French woman took it to Mexico. Good luck. Lawrence
Rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul G." <>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 5:10 PM
Subject: My next EV project, or Paul goes Datsun
> After a successful search for just the right donor car I have my next
> EV project, a 1966 Datsun 411 wagon. I had a preference for a early
> small sedan, but its not often you get a chance to buy a 41 year old
> car with only 92,000 miles on it. I'm hoping to hear your ideas on how
> to help it meet my needs. I put up a quickie page with links to some
> photos of it at:
>
> <http://paul-g.home.comcast.net/next.htm>.
>
> My goal is to build a vehicle for my commute and local errands. My
> commute is short, around 8 miles round trip with about 1/2 of it
> freeway miles (and yes, I expect to keep up.)
>
> What I have in mind is a small pack of AGMs and a suitable motor
> feeding the stock 4 speed gearbox (its in great shape.) This old car is
> a bit heavy, at around 2100 lb. It is also not the greatest on battery
> room. The under hood area is about 24 inches by 24 inches and naturally
> not all of it is available for batteries (mostly the master cylinder
> cuts into it a little.) In the back, where the spare tire sits now with
> the fuel tank underneath, I can create a space around 29 inches by 24
> inches and keep the stock load floor in place. Front and rear, depth is
> not an issue. I'm targeting a pack voltage between 120 and 156 volts.
> Initially I was thinking about using group 31 AGMs, but shape of the
> available space hints that group 34 AGMs (such as the standard YT
> Optima or Exide Orbital battery) may fit better. I'm open to ideas.
>
> I want to get a new set of wheels and tires on it before I tear out the
> ICE. Right now its running on 3 P165/80R13 tires (complete with
> cracking side walls) and an old 5.60-13 bias-ply whitewall tire on the
> left front corner (that made for some "interesting" handling on the
> freeway.) Wheel selection is somewhat limited but the bolt pattern and
> required offset is the same as a Geo Metro (4 lug on a 4.5 inch
> pattern, about +38 offset.) My options are either 13 inch with the same
> P-metric tire size or 14 inch with either P175/70R14 or P185/65R15.
> Anything larger than that could present some rear tire fit issues (the
> rear fender wells are designed to maximize the back seat.) Ideas here
> to minimize wheel weight and tire rolling resistance are welcome (but
> >$200 each Panasport wheels are a bit rich for me.)
>
> Enough of me talking. Please check it out and give me your ideas!
>
> Paul "neon" G.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Probably the main reason I selected that design was that the
shaft loads on both motors are nearly identical. the torque on each
shaft is the same. The side thrust on the front motor shaft is the
torque divided by the sprocket radius.
The side thrust on the rear motor is a little more
complicated to calculate, but turns out to be the same as the front
motor. The force going to the main drive chain is the sum of the two
motor contributions. Thus, the side thrust due to the main chain is 2
x motor torque / sprocket radius. The side thrust due to the primary
chain (coupling the two motors) is the rear motor torque / sprocket
radius, but it acts in the forward direction, so it cancels half of
the main chain side thrust.
You end up with the same side thrust on both motor shafts.
Since the force on the front shaft is about an inch farther
outboard than the rear motor, that shaft is subjected to more bending
moment. Thus, surprisingly, the front shaft is under slightly higher
stress than the rear shaft.
Bill Dube'
At 07:53 AM 3/5/2007, you wrote:
HI-
One the advantages of using Bill's motor drive system is that the compounded
forces of the dual motor drive are concentrated in the hub of the double
single
sprocket. This hub is > 3" for a 16 tooth sprocket. FT.
> [Original Message]
> From: Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Date: 3/4/2007 9:15:30 PM
> Subject: Motor shafts (was: Race Preps for DC Motors)
>
> I think that you use stronger shaft material and keep the same size
> shaft. You just need to pay.
>
> I'm not sure what standard motor shafts are made out of, but judging
> from the ease of cutting and drilling, they aren't the very strongest
> possible alloy.
>
> You could use 4340 chrome-moly steel. It is commonly available and
> has a tensile strength of 160,000 psi. If you wanted to go exotic,
> you could use maraging steel. You can machine it like stainless in
> its annealed state. Then you heat treat it (just bake it) and its
> tensile strength goes up over 350,000 psi (350 alloy.)
>
> It isn't cheap, of course:
> http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?id=912&step=2
> Notice that 1 inch shaft of 350 alloy maraging steel costs about $170
> per foot. (One inch 4340 steel is about $11 per foot.)
>
> You would just need to replace the shaft in the "drive end"
> motor. Don't get them mixed up later, however. :-)
>
> Bill Dube'
>
>
>
> >Keith at Dutchmans and I go around on this a lot. He
> >always wants to put in a bigger shaft diameter but I'm
> >always telling him that's all I can fit in, lmao!
> >
> >. I believe
> >more inline twins would be used if the shaft issue
> >wasn't there. Comparing Waylands twin motor to Otmars
> >twin set up shows just how many ways there is to skin
> >a cat.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jim,
I had inquired of James if these were MKZ type motors. Never got a reply.
The MKZ was a problem child design. It was field swamped. Way, way too much.
So the field coils tended to fry. Too high I squared R. The motor was really
not too small for that lift truck. Replacement design, MKN type did just fine.
MKN was same motor design as MKZ except a lot less effective field strength
(turns) and lower I squared R. Also has a 13 tooth gear in place of 16 (on
MKZ) to compenstate for higher RPM. Glad to hear he put field in S/P
(series-parallel) from all in series. That cuts amp-turns in half and I
squared R (field heat) by factor of 4. He probably has no need to bring out 4
field terminals. Just leave in S/P.
Also a thought on the brush cross connectors where you have clearance issues.
Why not bring out 4 "A" terminals? Two A1's and two A2's. Then just use a
insulated (welding cable or the like) jumper on the outside. If he is willing
to live with four "S" terminals, how about four A's?
Jeff
Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hey James, all
James and I have had a one on one chat on these motors
but I thought it'd be nice to do a public post for all
the other motor dorks out there 8^P I also wasn't
able to respond back as much as I'd have liked so here
goes.
The MKZ motors were just to small for the lift they
were in and had a bad issue with burning the fields
up. It appears to me that although dark these coils
seemed to have faired okay.
---------------------------------
No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark,
My '07 Prius has Goodyear Integrity P185/65R15 tires on it, those were the
stock tires.
Shawn Waggoner
Florida EAA
561-543-9223
www.floridaeaa.org
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Brueggemann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 10:00 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: My next EV project, or Paul goes Datsun
--- jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> For tires, the 14" Prius/Insight tires are
> about the same dia, 22.5"
Any idea what make/model the Prius tires are?
I just replaced my no longer made Goodyear Conquests
with Michelins's but it was a struggle to find anyone
that had any idea what LRR was or what the actual
tire spec's were. Would like a basis of comparison
agains the Prius tires.
Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
How exactly does one measure the resistance of battery cables?
It is too small of an amount to measure with my common multimeter.
Death to All Spammers wrote:
I don't know how to do it with a basic VOM, but it's done under load,
measuring voltage drop at a set amperage.
You've got it right, you just didn't realize it!
Run a known current through the cable (or connector, or motor winding,
or anything else that has too low a resistance to measure directly).
Your multimeter can tell you what this current is; most have a 10amp or
20amp scale. For example, you can get this current from a battery
charger charging a dead battery, or from a power supply with a big load
resistor.
Use your multimeter to measure the voltage drop across the cable (or
whatever).
Use Ohm's law to calculate its resistance. For example, suppose the
current is 15 amps, and the voltage drop across the cable is 0.1 volts.
Then the resistance of the cable R = V/I = 0.1v / 15a = 0.0067 ohms (6.7
milliohms).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry> The Prius and now Insight are Bridgestone RE92 165-65's I
Jerry> think. If you ask for Prius or the Insight tires in Bridgestone,
Jerry> they will show up on the replacement charts they have.
Sorry for the dumb question. I'm new here. I wasn't aware the Prius used
special tires. How do they differ from tires on other cars?
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
"The hippies and the hipsters did some great stuff in the sixties,
but the geeks pulled their weight too." -- Billy Bragg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
But Lee, where's the GUI? :-)
I'm sure you can rewrite it in Java or something so it's only 100 times
bigger, and only misses data "sometimes" (because it's too busy drawing
pretty pictures to bother to take data). :-)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
