EV Digest 6522
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Motor controller options
by Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Motor controller options
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Motor controller options
by Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Finding Rolling Resistance & Cd Empirically
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) subaru
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: FWD friction
by Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Precharge Resistor Primer
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Mick's response to Philippe's BattEQ Test Results
by "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Finding Rolling Resistance & Cd Empirically
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Need advice on Lee Hart's batt-bridge circuit
by Nick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Motor controller options (DC/DC options)
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: subaru
by "BC" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Curtis 1231C squealing solution
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Motor mods and torque specs
by "Dave Wilker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Electric Ford Ranger on E-bay
by "Alan Brinkman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: FWD friction
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Motor controller options (DC/DC options)
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Mick's response to Philippe's BattEQ Test Results
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Electric Ford Ranger on E-bay
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Manual Transmission Rebuild
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Believe it! He is making mine up at this time. He will make you a 144V
version if you need one.
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.blogspot.com
---- "Dewey wrote:
> The system sure looks comprehensive but I am having difficulty believing
> the whole kit can be bought for $2000.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Martin Winlow
> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 10:28
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Motor controller options
>
> Try http://www.belktronix.com/
>
> I am considering using their whole 'system' for my conversion soon but
> there is little feedback from other users as yet.
>
> Also, I don't know if it's my email that's at fault (it certainly was
> initially) or what, but they *appear* a little reluctant to answer
> emails.
>
> Good luck. MW
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Ian Hooper
> Sent: 07 March 2007 13:38
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Motor controller options
>
> Hi all,
>
> Quick question, does anyone know of any good series DC motor controllers
> currently available other than the Curtis and the Zillas?
>
> I notice Dennis Pestka mentioned the Raptor controller for his Datsun
> project, I've heard of them before but didn't think they were still in
> production?
>
> The Curtis 1231 wouldn't cut it for my project and I'm too impatient to
> wait for a Zilla, so at this stage it's looking like I'll have to build
> my own controller.. *sigh*
>
> -Ian
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wish I would have seen his system before I bought my components! I am
definitely interested in his charger/DC converter with the BATMON
circuits.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 10:55
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Cc: Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
Subject: RE: Motor controller options
Believe it! He is making mine up at this time. He will make you a
144V version if you need one.
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.blogspot.com
---- "Dewey wrote:
> The system sure looks comprehensive but I am having difficulty
> believing the whole kit can be bought for $2000.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Martin Winlow
> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 10:28
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Motor controller options
>
> Try http://www.belktronix.com/
>
> I am considering using their whole 'system' for my conversion soon but
> there is little feedback from other users as yet.
>
> Also, I don't know if it's my email that's at fault (it certainly was
> initially) or what, but they *appear* a little reluctant to answer
> emails.
>
> Good luck. MW
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Ian Hooper
> Sent: 07 March 2007 13:38
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Motor controller options
>
> Hi all,
>
> Quick question, does anyone know of any good series DC motor
> controllers currently available other than the Curtis and the Zillas?
>
> I notice Dennis Pestka mentioned the Raptor controller for his Datsun
> project, I've heard of them before but didn't think they were still in
> production?
>
> The Curtis 1231 wouldn't cut it for my project and I'm too impatient
> to wait for a Zilla, so at this stage it's looking like I'll have to
> build my own controller.. *sigh*
>
> -Ian
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You won't find anyone better to work with than Bryan at Belktronix. He is dyno
testing my controller this week and plans to ship it next week. Bryan used to
work for FMC and has worked up hardware for major sized vehicles. You won't
have to wait six months or more either like you do with some of the other
builders and it will cost you a LOT less.
He can make up your controller, charger, throttle unit and DC converter. Mine
is a 144V version of the above.
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
---- Martin Winlow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Try http://www.belktronix.com/
>
> I am considering using their whole 'system' for my conversion soon but there
> is little feedback from other users as yet.
>
> Also, I don't know if it's my email that's at fault (it certainly was
> initially) or what, but they *appear* a little reluctant to answer emails.
>
> Good luck. MW
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Ian Hooper
> Sent: 07 March 2007 13:38
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Motor controller options
>
> Hi all,
>
> Quick question, does anyone know of any good series DC motor controllers
> currently available other than the Curtis and the Zillas?
>
> I notice Dennis Pestka mentioned the Raptor controller for his Datsun
> project, I've heard of them before but didn't think they were still in
> production?
>
> The Curtis 1231 wouldn't cut it for my project and I'm too impatient to wait
> for a Zilla, so at this stage it's looking like I'll have to build my own
> controller.. *sigh*
>
> -Ian
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I asked a mechanical engineering professor how to
measure RR. He said forget about it.
And if you try to get info from the tire manufactuers
they treat it as top secret.
The best you can do is look at the tire and see how
close they look like slicks.
--- Martin Winlow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi, all,
>
> For my first post I would like to ask all you
> budding mathematicians out
> there if it would be possible (or, indeed,
> worthwhile) to obtain a donor-ICE
> vehicle's rolling resistance and coefficient of drag
> empirically rather than
> by trying to obtain them by other means (very
> difficult in my case, it seems
> - a Daihatsu HiJet van)?
>
> I had in mind finding a quiet bit of smooth,
> straight road with a slight and
> consistent slope between two fixed points, over a
> measured distance and drop
> in height (measurable with a laser level or
> theodolite). Then, sit the
> donor ICE vehicle at the start point, let off the
> brakes and time the run
> and measure the speed at the end point. It would
> have to be a windless day
> too, of course and dry.
>
> I would have thought that from these measurements it
> would be possible to
> then calculate the RR and (with more difficulty) the
> Cd.
>
> What is the advantage? Well, a/ these values are
> often difficult to obtain
> and b/ you would get a far more 'real life'
> measurement.
>
> Regards, Martin Winlow.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
it be interesting if do the subaru.
Haven't seen too many of those.
--- Jerry McIntire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ian, nice spreadsheet. I looked at specs for quite
> a few vehicles
> when I was making plans, before I bought an EV.
>
> Don't know if more than two seats is important to
> you, but it was to
> me. All of these are 4 door.
>
> The ones I liked which are missing from your list:
> 1990-91 Honda Civic wagon- 2300 lbs
> 1990-94 Subaru Loyale wagon- 2400 lbs, 7" ground
> clearance, probably
> my first choice, I like to haul and tow stuff
> 1992-97 Ford Escort- 2500 lbs
> 1992-96 Eagle Summit wagon- 2730 lbs, 7" ground
> clearance, easy to
> get in and out
>
> Newer vehicles
> 2003-06 Toyota Matrix- 2,700 lbs, 6" clearance
> 2003-06 Pontiac Vibe- 2,700 lbs, 8" clearance
> (Matrix and Vibe are
> twins except for clearance, styling)
> 1996-2000 Toyota RAV4- 2800 lbs, good clearance
>
> I would stay away from VW unless it's an old Beetle
> or Ghia. I've
> owned several newer ones, and spent lots of time and
> money fixing
> little things apart from the motor and trans. Pain
> in the neck.
>
> Toyota made a nice wagon in the early 1990's also.
>
> Jerry
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 16:47:04 +1000, you wrote:
>One thing I've noticed is that, with the front wheels elevated and with the
>gearbox in neutral, hand spinning the front (drive) wheels takes >considerable
>effort. It is difficult to get them up to any sort of speed (ie. 1 rev / sec),
>and they stop in a quarter turn or so. By >comparison, I recently had
>opportunity to try the same thing with an original ICE variant owned by a
>friend, and it was considerably easier, >and the drive wheel would spin for a
>few seconds from a similar speed.
>
>This of course sparked a great deal of curiosity at the workshop, so we jacked
>up the front (drive) wheels of our EV, and everyone had a go at turning the
>front wheels with a view to seeing whether they thought the friction was high
>or normal for a FWD. Typically, opinions varied considerably.
>
>I was therefore wondering whether other owners of FWD EVs, or those with
>similar experience, could chip in their 0.2 kh.hrs worth? Does this sound
>normal for a FWD? Should the drive wheels spin more freely? Could choice of
>gearbox oil, which is the simplest thing for me to change, have a dramatic
>impact?
>
>Depending on comments I'll probably try changing out the oil in the gearbox on
>the weekend. While I'm working on the car, is there anything else that I could
>check? There are any numbers of contributors (gearbox, wheel-bearings,
>dragging brakes, ...), but is there a simple way to differentiate to identify
>the biggest culprits?
My car is on jack stands, so I walked out and checked. Mine is in a
similar state. I can HEAR the brakes dragging on my car. I have yet
to get it running enough to take it in for a brake job.
R. Matt Milliron
1981 Jet Electrica
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nutshell version:
Your controller contains capacitors (which store a charge) to smooth out
the ripple current; most power supplies and power conversion devices
(like motor controllers) have them. When the controller has been off
for a while, the capacitors are in a discharged state. The nature of
capacitors is that they act just like a short circuit very briefly when
exposed to a DC voltage in an discharged state. This causes a large
current spike (and maybe an arc, or damage to wires, caps, contactor,
etc) when the contactor is closed.
The solution is to "pre-charge" the capacitors at a slower rate through
a resistor, so that the capacitor voltage is close to the battery pack
voltage when the contactor closes, reducing the current surge to
something relatively small.
The Curtis potbox switch is a safety feature (whose merits are sometimes
"discussed" on this list) which opens the main contactor when the
throttle is completely let off. The idea being that if you have a
failure condition in the controller where it cannot turn off because of
shorted transistors or whatnot, that when you take your foot off the
accelerator, the contactor will open and de-energize the controller.
During normal driving, the contactor will click off every time the
throttle is let up, but the precharge circuit remains active, so the
caps don't discharge.
Frank John wrote:
I *think* I understand the purpose/need for precharging but would appreciate an
experts overview, especially as it relates to use of the Curtis potbox switch.
This would be with the SW series contactor.
TIA
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for earth-friendly autos?
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the interesting test report, Philippe. Your 19% capacity
difference associated with BattEQ is in line with my own observations.
Philippe's capacity tests were conducted in reverse sequence from
what I usually recommend. The BattEQ(TM) benefit is more fairly observed by
clocking the amp-hours before the balancer is ever installed, as that would
establish a baseline.
I also think it's more correct to state the increased amp-hour
delivery as a percentage of the baseline number. Those who wish to conduct
experiments may contact me off list to discuss appropriate testing
procedures.
Rather than looking for one monobloc to "touch 10.5" volts as the
signal for when to end the discharge, I suggest using an end to end string
voltage of 10.5 X 4 = 42 volts for the cutoff point. This may sound
identical to what Philippe did, but it isn't. In the real world, the
decision to shut down the discharge of an EV battery string is based on
end-to end voltage, not on the voltage of just one segment of the string.
Philippe's 7 amp-hour rated string showed a noticeable increase with
the balancer, but at 2.3 amp hours it's still performing badly. As I've said
before, BattEQ is not a cure for cancer. If the balancer could be left in
place for a matter of weeks that might show additional capacity restoration,
but the real benefit of testing BattEQ on decrepit batteries is to prove the
concept and verify the energy transfer capability.
Philippe said: "I never saw more than 1,1A equalizing current (i heard about
2A advertised)"
Mick says: Not being there makes it difficult for me to address this
observation, but point #1 is that the experimenter should not insert
metering shunts or other resistors between the balancer wires & the battery.
There are other ways to measure the amps but shunts in series with the
balancer wires would skew the very readings that are sought.
Point #2 is that the biggest delta-v during Philippe's discharge
test was probably too small to drive the balancer to its maximum current.
Next time, continue the discharge even after the weakest zombie hits 10.5.
As mentioned above, using 42 volts end to end as the cutoff trigger would be
a better simulation of how we really use our batteries.
Philippe: If you don't want to drive your weakest battery below 10.5
volts, slap a small 14v power supply on one of the better monoblocs during
discharge. The aim is to increase the delta-v so you can see the full-tilt
amp transfer. Eventually, the balancer shuts itself off to avoid burning up.
For Philippe's scooter balancer, my information from Smart Spark would
indeed suggest around 2 amps out from the strongest channel before the
shutdown occurs; maximum throughput is affected by several factors including
the internal resistance of the battery. Go ahead and drive the unit to the
shutdown point, as that is the only way to verify the maximum throughput
capability. The small BattEQ units will automatically resume operation when
the big delta-v goes away.
The purpose of an exercise like this is just to confirm that the
unit really can transfer good power per dollar without burning up.
A balancer like the one Philippe is testing may never actually have
to pump 2 amps. We hope that is the case because the amount of delta-v
necessary to drive 2 amps through the balancer may be more delta-v than we
want. If a scooter owner never observes 2 amps that doesn't necessarily mean
that he bought too much balancer. The same circuitry that <could> deliver 2
amps with a maxed out delta-v also allows the balancer to deliver
commensurate "energy discipline" to the pack at lower delta-v. We want a
punchy response from the balancer when the voltages diverge slightly. If
that response is sufficiently intense, the delta-v never gets wide enough to
require the maximum energy throughput that the balancer is capable of.
Philippe said: "It should only give near 3% usable capacity gain for a 50Ah
battery...so imho this model is not powerful enough for something bigger
than 14Ah in EV use (1C continuous discharge)"
Mick says: This part of Philippe's report is confusing to me. I'm not sure
where the 3% came from.
Smart Spark model numbers include a suggested battery amp-hour
matchup. For Philippe's balancer that number is 50, as in 50 amp-hours.
These guideline numbers assume lead acid batteries, and they are based on
the most common industrial usage patterns.
My history with the Smart Spark engineers and their products tells
me that I should take SSES amp-hour recommendations seriously. I can and do
sometimes diverge from SSES amp-hour suggestions, but I always take their
numbers as my starting point.
Philippe: if you have a friend with a 48v 50ah scooter & relatively new
batteries, that's the ideal real world test bed for the balancer in your
shop. If the balancer shuts off that would indicate a need for more energy
pumping capability in that application. EVT America is preparing to roll out
the scooter version BattEQ on their new machine with a 50 ah battery string,
so it probably works fine on a battery of that size.
Prospective EVDL buyers for BattEQ may contact me off list. I can
sell single units, case quantities for resale, and OEM level quantities.
Some versions already in production can be tweaked for different type
batteries including rechargeable lithium. Customized solutions are also
available if the purchase volume is sufficient.
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
Would not the rolling resistance (RR) be determined by measuring the force to
push or pull the vehicle at a constant low speed, such as 1 or 2 mph? Just use
a force gauge or spring scale. Once the vehicle is moving the break-away
friction (stiction) is out of the equation. So you're left with RR, force in
pounds or newtons. That will change little with speed. Of course the power
attributed to RR is proportional to speed.
Jeff
mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I asked a mechanical engineering professor how to
measure RR. He said forget about it.
And if you try to get info from the tire manufactuers
they treat it as top secret.
The best you can do is look at the tire and see how
close they look like slicks.
--- Martin Winlow wrote:
> Hi, all,
>
> For my first post I would like to ask all you
> budding mathematicians out
> there if it would be possible (or, indeed,
> worthwhile) to obtain a donor-ICE
> vehicle's rolling resistance and coefficient of drag
> empirically rather than
> by trying to obtain them by other means (very
> difficult in my case, it seems
> - a Daihatsu HiJet van)?
>
> I had in mind finding a quiet bit of smooth,
> straight road with a slight and
> consistent slope between two fixed points, over a
> measured distance and drop
> in height (measurable with a laser level or
> theodolite). Then, sit the
> donor ICE vehicle at the start point, let off the
> brakes and time the run
> and measure the speed at the end point. It would
> have to be a windless day
> too, of course and dry.
>
> I would have thought that from these measurements it
> would be possible to
> then calculate the RR and (with more difficulty) the
> Cd.
>
> What is the advantage? Well, a/ these values are
> often difficult to obtain
> and b/ you would get a far more 'real life'
> measurement.
>
> Regards, Martin Winlow.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
---------------------------------
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Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor,
Do you think I could achieve the same effect by putting a single
capacitor across the green LED? I only ask because it would be
physically much easier to put it there for the way I have it setup.
Thanks!
Nick
Cor van de Water wrote:
Nick,
It would probably help to have one capacitor attached to each red LED.
With approximately 1uF (microFarad) in parallel, the voltage of the
red LED does not change with the AC ripple on the pack, only with the
slower DC changes caused by the loading and balance of the pack.
This size still allows approximately 1ms (millisecond) response time
so if the ripple is lower in frequency than approx 1 kHz (SCR controller
for example) then it may be necessary to increase the value to 10 uF.
Voltage is not important, as the LED will limit at around 2V, the
polarity is important if using electrolytic caps (elco) so make sure
the - marking on the housing points to the pack neg side.
Success experimenting,
Cor.
-----original message-----
Hello all,
I just constructed the circuit shown in the email below. It seems pretty
simple and straight-forward, so I figured I couldn't screw anything up.
Well, when I fired it up, all three lights come on. I checked
everything, and figured out that if I disconnected my DC-DC converter,
the two red lights would turn off. But, I don't want to leave my DC-DC
disconnected (Duh!) and I also discovered that when I drive it (without
the DC-DC) both red lights would come on faintly whenever I accelerated
(even slightly). I suspect this has something to do with AC ripple
current from the controller or something like that, but I don't know
enough about such things to troubleshoot this myself.
Any recommendations, anyone?
Thanks,
Nick
Lee Hart wrote:
Edward Ang wrote:
How about this circuit below? [snip]
Yes, this is a variant of my "batt-bridge" circuit. It's a good way to
indicate the *relative* differences between batteries (which in most
cases is all you need to know).
The simplest version is:
Pack+______________
|
>
red > R1
LED >
___|/|___|
| |\| _|_
Center___| _\_/_ green
tap | | LED
|___|\|___|
|/| |
red >
LED > R2
>
Pack-______________|
This deceptively simple circuit lights the green LED whenever pack power
is available, and one of the red LEDs if the voltage of *any* battery is
about 1 volt different than the rest.
For example, while you are driving, the first cell that goes dead drops
rapidly under load from 2v to 1v. This lowers its half-pack voltage by
1v. If it's in the upper half, the upper red LED lights. If it's in the
lower half, the lower red LED lights.
While charging, the first battery that goes into overcharge has a rapid
rise in its voltage. When it is 1v high (like 15v when the rest are 14v,
this also lights oneo of the red LEDs.
Use high-brightness red LEDs, and a normal-brightness green LED. R1 and
R2 should be chosen for about 10-20ma with your pack voltage, and both
must be identical values (use 1% resistors). With a 144v pack and 14.4ma
for example, R1+R2 = 144v/0.0144a = 10k, or 5k each. These are power
resistors; each one dissipates P = I^2 x R = (0.0144)^2 x 5000 = 1 watt,
so use at least 2 watt resistors.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Bath wrote:
Finally, There is a company called Belktronix, and the
guy is pretty new but wants to get in the game and
support EVs. He makes a _600 watt_ DCDC converter
(most of ours are around 300-350). I forget the
amperage on his controller, but you can find out on
the webpage.
peace,
WRT DC/DC: Iota Engineering makes a 740W "battery charger", the DLS 55.
Many people on this list have reported that these units work just fine
as DC/DC despite being an AC/DC device.
The DLS55 can be had for as little as $125, new, if you shop around.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think the problem with the subaru, correct me if I'm wrong, is that they
are all either all wheel drive vehicles or 4WD. EVERY Subaru is like that.
Thus you have a greater drain on the batteries. Of course you could just
replace the transmission.
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: mike golub
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 11:18 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: subaru
it be interesting if do the subaru.
Haven't seen too many of those.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:37 AM 3/7/2007, you wrote:
Does anyone on the list know how to disable the classic Curtis "Squeal"?
My controller works fine but the squeal is starting to get to me.
Regards, Rod Dilkes
www.dilkesmotors.com
Yeah. Hit the throttle and get above 5 mph.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.aptfast.com/ARP_Additional_Stuff/ARP_notes_info/arp_t_specs.htm
Most hardware torque specs can be taken from standard hardware torque
charts. It depends on the hardness (grade) of the fastener, diameter of the
threaded portion and whether it is lubed.
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
BTW Peter ADC (like Prestolite) uses self tapping
bolts. I asked a Prestolite guy one time what to
torque the bolts to, he didn't have an answer for me
and said it's done by machine. I use a 3/8th impact
gun on a lighter setting. That's all I have time for
right now. I have been known to snap that last bolt
from time to time, of course it's always the last one
I'm doing, just to make it all that more difficult to
redo. If I do get a broken one I replace all 4 to
prevent it from happening again (which has happened
also)
Got to run more later.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for earth-friendly autos?
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http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello everyone,
There is a 2000 Electric Ford Ranger on E-bay that is interesting,
because of the description, especially to someone new to the list.
I have no interest in the vehicle, and do not know if it is a good value
for the money or not. It is at $15,325 and the reserve is not yet met.
It is at
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=004&sspagena
me=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=140091723576&rd=1,1
And the item number is 140091723576 if the link does not work.
Alan Brinkman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Claudio Natoli wrote:
> One thing I've noticed is that, with the front wheels
> elevated and with the gearbox in neutral, hand spinning the
> front (drive) wheels takes considerable effort.
As it happens, I had my EV on stands this past weekend checking the same
thing. (It is a FWD Suzuki Forsa.)
With the wheels off, I spun it up to 40kph in 2nd, and observed 50A @
120V on the E-Meter initially. I pried the brakes pads back and
repeated the test with the result that the current dropped to 40A.
With a new set of calipers installed (left still dragging slightly, so
brake hose(s) replacement is next), the current remained at 40A.
With the tranny in neutral, the left wheel would spin when the motor was
spun up (couldn't observe the right side wheel while working the
throttle, so don't know what it was doing at the time). It took a
surprising amount of force to hold the left rotor still (no wheel
installed, so just holding it by the wheel studs), even though the
tranny was in neutral.
I don't know if this behaviour is normal or not for a FWD but I seem to
recall it taking a fairly gentle touch to stop the wheels on a RWD
vehicle from spinning under similar conditions.
Certainly, the 40A @ 120V is *way* too high; at the 40kph (25mph)
indicated speed, this corresponds to 120Wh/km or 192Wh/mi without RR or
aero losses (the vehicle isn't moving!).
A friend suggested using an IR thermometer to see where the energy is
going, so that's the plan for this weekend. I'll also try Peter's
suggestion of comparing the ease of spinning the wheels with the clutch
engaged vs disengaged.
> Could choice of gearbox oil, which is the simplest thing for
> me to change, have a dramatic impact?
If you are running stock oil in the EV and ICE vehicles that you
compared, then while better/lighter oil might make a difference, it
doesn't explain the difference between the two.
If you don't spend a great deal of your driving time running in neutral,
there may be little benefit to addressing the amount of energy it takes
to spin things in neutral. ;^>
It might be more productive to see how difficult it is to spin the wheel
with the tranny in gear and the clutch disengaged, and compare this to
the ICE version.
> There are any numbers of contributors (gearbox, wheel-bearings,
> dragging brakes, ...), but is there a simple way to differentiate
> to identify the biggest culprits?
Brakes are the easiest to check, since you can simply pry the pads away
from the rotors (if disk brakes), or adjust the shoes away from the
drums and compare the effort before and after. If you've got
instrumentation you can quantify the difference in power easily,
otherwise using a torque wrench or spring scale, etc. to apply the force
required to turn the wheel will let you get a feel for the qunatitative
improvement.
An IR thermometer seems like a great way to find out where the losses
are; jack up the drive wheels and spin them for awhile, then check to
see what's getting warm.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> WRT DC/DC: Iota Engineering makes a 740W "battery charger",
> the DLS 55. Many people on this list have reported that these
> units work just fine as DC/DC despite being an AC/DC device.
I've had one in my EV for about 6 years now, and it's nice
to be able to have all the lights, heater fan and other accessories
running without worrying about running the 12V system down.
I have two nits about it though, one is even with the "equalize"
jumper installed, the voltage doesn't go quite high enough to
keep an SLI battery fully charged. This is per spec, it's
intended for continuous, not intermittent connection as a charger.
I have no idea if there are any internal adjustments for this.
2nd is it needs at least about 135VDC to run. With 144V of floodies
I can easily dip down below this on accelleration as the pack
runs down during a trip. In contrast, the old Todd I used to use
wouldn't ever brown out, it functioned down to 90V. Overall
it works well, and has outlasted 2 other Todd's.
Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's your points but as i explained my tests choices are all EV use
oriented.
10,5V is the target per battery as we are expecting from equaliser to
maximise battery life during discharge, using whole string voltage divided
to find 10,5 is definitely a "not to do" rule...
As stated in explanation(in french though) pack 2 of 7Ah batteries were in
perfect state and 2Ah is their normal capacity at 8,5A discharge rate (>1C),
nothing anormal as they are UPS batteries not optima yellowtop :^)
I clocked Ah first with Batteq and then without to be sure Ah gain would be
from Batteq work and not from one more charge/discharge exercize benefice,
that's the point, add 1 or 2 more percent gain if you wish ;^)
I use fluke 189 for volt amp reading, even with impossible 20% error (ask
Fluke Cie about such :^) it still would not have given more than 1,3A !
But ok lets admit 2A is achieved, it will result in a 40% usable capacity
gain for a 7Ah battery (i'm little optimistic here but no matter) and then a
6% gain for a 50Ah battery...
still not interesting compared to price imho...and we are dreaming here as
my test are more 1% for voltage and 5% current maximum possible error.
Batteq is claimed to help during discharge, it help but my observation made
IRL EV use show Batteq system is made for slow discharge rate as used in UPS
discharge other 10 to 20 hours > the Batteq 50 can't effectively equalise a
50Ah battery during EV discharge at 1 hour rate (50A) and more.
So i would advise you to under-rate them a lot for EV customers...Batteq 50
is probably worth the money for 10Ah and Batteq 250 for 50Ah.
EVT4000 and 168 can pump 150A out of their 50Ah C/20 battery, .
Emax 1500W eat little more than 50A out of their 2X20Ah C/20 battery
EMax 2000W eat arround 75A out of their 2X4X20Ah parallele string C/20
battery
so imho EVT america did an inadequate choice, noway you have bang for the
buck with Batteq 50 in these, though Emax/Z-20 should be "easier" for it.
Did i told you than electrolyte capacitor degrade ...so results will not be
better with time.
I'm not trying to convince you Mike, it's just my opinion, use it or
not...no effect for me ;^)
Thats all folks, time to look for 3 powercheq to use them in same tests :^)
but these things are incredibly pricey other the pond :^(
Cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait du volant, quel carburant choisiriez-vous
?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 5:31 PM
Subject: Mick's response to Philippe's BattEQ Test Results
Thanks for the interesting test report, Philippe. Your 19% capacity
difference associated with BattEQ is in line with my own observations.
Philippe's capacity tests were conducted in reverse sequence from
what I usually recommend. The BattEQ(TM) benefit is more fairly observed
by
clocking the amp-hours before the balancer is ever installed, as that
would
establish a baseline.
I also think it's more correct to state the increased amp-hour
delivery as a percentage of the baseline number. Those who wish to conduct
experiments may contact me off list to discuss appropriate testing
procedures.
Rather than looking for one monobloc to "touch 10.5" volts as the
signal for when to end the discharge, I suggest using an end to end string
voltage of 10.5 X 4 = 42 volts for the cutoff point. This may sound
identical to what Philippe did, but it isn't. In the real world, the
decision to shut down the discharge of an EV battery string is based on
end-to end voltage, not on the voltage of just one segment of the string.
Philippe's 7 amp-hour rated string showed a noticeable increase with
the balancer, but at 2.3 amp hours it's still performing badly. As I've
said
before, BattEQ is not a cure for cancer. If the balancer could be left in
place for a matter of weeks that might show additional capacity
restoration,
but the real benefit of testing BattEQ on decrepit batteries is to prove
the
concept and verify the energy transfer capability.
Philippe said: "I never saw more than 1,1A equalizing current (i heard
about
2A advertised)"
Mick says: Not being there makes it difficult for me to address this
observation, but point #1 is that the experimenter should not insert
metering shunts or other resistors between the balancer wires & the
battery.
There are other ways to measure the amps but shunts in series with the
balancer wires would skew the very readings that are sought.
Point #2 is that the biggest delta-v during Philippe's discharge
test was probably too small to drive the balancer to its maximum current.
Next time, continue the discharge even after the weakest zombie hits 10.5.
As mentioned above, using 42 volts end to end as the cutoff trigger would
be
a better simulation of how we really use our batteries.
Philippe: If you don't want to drive your weakest battery below 10.5
volts, slap a small 14v power supply on one of the better monoblocs during
discharge. The aim is to increase the delta-v so you can see the full-tilt
amp transfer. Eventually, the balancer shuts itself off to avoid burning
up.
For Philippe's scooter balancer, my information from Smart Spark would
indeed suggest around 2 amps out from the strongest channel before the
shutdown occurs; maximum throughput is affected by several factors
including
the internal resistance of the battery. Go ahead and drive the unit to the
shutdown point, as that is the only way to verify the maximum throughput
capability. The small BattEQ units will automatically resume operation
when
the big delta-v goes away.
The purpose of an exercise like this is just to confirm that the
unit really can transfer good power per dollar without burning up.
A balancer like the one Philippe is testing may never actually have
to pump 2 amps. We hope that is the case because the amount of delta-v
necessary to drive 2 amps through the balancer may be more delta-v than we
want. If a scooter owner never observes 2 amps that doesn't necessarily
mean
that he bought too much balancer. The same circuitry that <could> deliver
2
amps with a maxed out delta-v also allows the balancer to deliver
commensurate "energy discipline" to the pack at lower delta-v. We want a
punchy response from the balancer when the voltages diverge slightly. If
that response is sufficiently intense, the delta-v never gets wide enough
to
require the maximum energy throughput that the balancer is capable of.
Philippe said: "It should only give near 3% usable capacity gain for a
50Ah
battery...so imho this model is not powerful enough for something bigger
than 14Ah in EV use (1C continuous discharge)"
Mick says: This part of Philippe's report is confusing to me. I'm not sure
where the 3% came from.
Smart Spark model numbers include a suggested battery amp-hour
matchup. For Philippe's balancer that number is 50, as in 50 amp-hours.
These guideline numbers assume lead acid batteries, and they are based on
the most common industrial usage patterns.
My history with the Smart Spark engineers and their products tells
me that I should take SSES amp-hour recommendations seriously. I can and
do
sometimes diverge from SSES amp-hour suggestions, but I always take their
numbers as my starting point.
Philippe: if you have a friend with a 48v 50ah scooter & relatively new
batteries, that's the ideal real world test bed for the balancer in your
shop. If the balancer shuts off that would indicate a need for more energy
pumping capability in that application. EVT America is preparing to roll
out
the scooter version BattEQ on their new machine with a 50 ah battery
string,
so it probably works fine on a battery of that size.
Prospective EVDL buyers for BattEQ may contact me off list. I can
sell single units, case quantities for resale, and OEM level quantities.
Some versions already in production can be tweaked for different type
batteries including rechargeable lithium. Customized solutions are also
available if the purchase volume is sufficient.
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've seen these before but I just noticed for the first time some of the
interesting instrumentation they have. Did anyone else notice the "distance
to empty" gauge on it? That's really cool. Is there anything like it
available that I could put in my truck? If not, does anyone have any good
ideas on how to make one?
Matt
On 3/7/07, Alan Brinkman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello everyone,
There is a 2000 Electric Ford Ranger on E-bay that is interesting,
because of the description, especially to someone new to the list.
I have no interest in the vehicle, and do not know if it is a good value
for the money or not. It is at $15,325 and the reserve is not yet met.
It is at
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=004&sspagena
me=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=140091723576&rd=1,1
And the item number is 140091723576 if the link does not work.
Alan Brinkman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So I pulled the MR2 transmission last weekend and set it off to a
transmission shop up here in Austin. They do not even have the tools to
open it, and they don't have the time to haul it to a shop that
specializes in manual transmissions. They asked me to come get it, and
gave me the name of the company (Pistole, in South Austin) that they
would usually sub the work out to.
The transmission has two problems, a bad 3rd gear syncro (much needed)
and a metallic rattle that sounds like some loose piece is falling to
the bottom of the transmission whenever the vehicle comes to a halt.
So now I have a choice, do I haul the tranny to the South end of town
and pay for a rebuild, or do I do the rebuild myself.
1. I never even opened a transmission before, and the diagrams make it
look tremendously complex inside.
2. I lack all of the tools required, (including a inch/lb accurate
torque wrench and a bearing press) as well as several special service tools.
OTOH,
1. I may save a little money now, and certainly will save money if I
ever have to do this again
2. I can modify the transmission for a electronic speed sensor, and
maybe even remove unneeded gears like first.
3. The factory manual I have covers the entire process, and is very
complete.
Thoughts? Anyone ever done this before?
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
