EV Digest 6530
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Motor mods Peter Gabrielsson
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 300V EV Questions
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Motor mods
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Hybrid Car Crash - Tacoma WA - 3/6/07
by Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Reading Material
by "David Hrivnak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Motor mods Peter Gabrielsson
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Motor mods Peter Gabrielsson
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Nice AC motors on E-bay
by "Al" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Heatsinking a Curtis - necessary for golf cart versions?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Heatsinking a Curtis - necessary for golf cart versions?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: case cooling (was RE: Motor blower)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) EV Racing Safety (was Re: Hybrid Car Crash - Tacoma WA - 3/6/07)
by "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) New EV'er
by "Al" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Reading Material
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: SCCA Problems with Electrics
by "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Reading Material
by Karsten Gopinath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Reading Material
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) BugE again
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Hybrid Car Crash - Tacoma WA - 3/6/07
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Peter, all
Well I just came from your site and having scanned
through it I wanted to say "well having you been a
busy little motor beaver" 8^=
Well you done did it now mister you gave me you blog
address, hehe. Having stuck my big nose into your
business I thought I'd put out some thoughts.
Uhoh...
looking at the coils there were a couple spots where
the insulation is breaking down, one where the sensor
was attached and the other being at least in a great
area to be in, which is the last wind which can be
easily wrapped. BTW what's that funky orange tape
stuff, that don't look class H to me lol. I saw the
field upgrade and read the blog and it states "all
that's left to do is install them and varnish them.
I'm hoping you finished wrapping the coils before
doing that. You'll want the entire coil wrapped.
Might be a "well dah Jim" note but just want to make
sure, didn't see no finished pic of it completely
wrapped. I was glad to see you used silver solder so
you've got a nice connection there.
The funky orange stuff was just some kapton tape I used to protect the
coils from accidental exposure to the soldering torch. It actually
exceeds class H at 500F maximum temperature. It's not very pliable
though.
I know you like to wrap the entire coil. I'm not entirely convinced
that it is the best thing to do. (This is probably one of those
instances when I should listen to the guy who has experience
rebuilding thousands of motors.) From an electrical insulation
standpoint it certainly makes sense, but it also increases the thermal
impedance and thereby raising the temperature of the coil. However if
you believe it's needed I'll trust you on it and wrap the rest of it
too.
I actually ran out of tape and McMaster was out of it too, I see now
they just shipped my order yesterday.
Except for the brush lead fiasco I haven't done much work on the motor
past what can be seen on the blog. I've been quite busy trying to get
the Fiat fixed up.
How are you going to varnish it? You have a local
shop you'll have do it? I'm asking cause you'd be a
good cadidate for AC-46 spray. I bake mine but it
will air dry anyway thought I'd throw that at you. I
know James Massey has an issue getting it but you
should have no problem. Just throwing that out there
for the inhouse repair guys needing a good, cheap,
insulation option to having to sub that part out.
I have access to something similar to AC-46 spray on varnish. It's an
epoxy based product that needs no baking (supposedly).
Ohh btw make sure you check those fields for a short
to the housing before you lock it down with varnish
(specialy using the type of tape you used) or you'll
be bumming.
Will do.
I use a .007 non-adhisive fiberglass wrap
and not a tape. I find the sticky edges of the tape
attract carbon dust specialy if left unvarished. I
also try to wrap my coils without a splice and
flipping 20' of tape around a coil would get well
sticky, lmao.
Yeah the tape was a bit difficult to work with. I rolled it up on a
smaller spool so i could get it through the center of the coil without
twisting it.
Also 3/4 turn on the springs sounds right. That's a
lot of difference from the 1/4 or 1 1/4 turn you
posted earlier, LMAO!!
All in all you're looking good, just wanted to add
this little input. But I'll be keeping my eye on you
mister!
Thanks for all your free advice Jim.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--
www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was not shouting just bad typist . with big fat fingers
----- Original Message -----
From: James Massey<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: 300V EV Questions
At 08:27 PM 7/03/07 -0600, Fred wrote:
>why are u putting the circuit breakers in series for ? it will not chNGE
>THEIR VOLTAGE RATING AS THEY ARE NOT A LOAD . AND BEING IN SERIEA THEIR
>CURRENT RATING WILL NOT CHANGE EITHER .
Um Fred, if you are going to SHOUT at least know what you are talking about.
A breaker can break and clear the arc of a maximum load at a certain
voltage. Above that voltage it cannot guarantee to clear the arc. So the
160V rated breaker can clear a fault on 160V. Put two contacts in series
and when opened together it will clear a fault if the system voltage is
160V x 2 = 320V. Put three contacts in series and the system can be as high
as 480 volts.
The current will still be whatever the current is. If it is 400A rated, it
doesn't care if the system voltage is 2 volts or maximum rating, it will
trip on the amp/curve it is designed for.
Putting them in parallel *is* a bad idea, as they probably won't reliably
current share between the sections, so for example a 3-pole 150A breaker
cannot be considered as a 1-pole 450A breaker, since you can't count on the
contacts sharing the load - if one pole sees 150A it will trip, even if the
others are only carrying 50A each.
Clear?
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jim is sending me some
> reconditioned field windings
> he has wrapped and baked (usual work of art stuff)
> and he doesn't want me
> grafiti painting over Rembrant (or maybe that's more
> like Picasso!).
>
> Regards
>
> [Technik] James
Hey James, all
Hey they'll be yours to do as you please. Besides
joking with James, the reason I don't like coating the
fields or armature windings with any colored coating
is that it can hide signs of heat. Leaving them a
natural color allows one to see if a componant is
showing signs of darkening. Anyway that's why I use
mostly clear coatings and keep the red to areas that
won't hide area's I'd like to keep viewable. Might
keep you from cooking them to ash inside a red candy
coated shell8^P
Anyway that's my take on it, well that and because I
just think it looks better and I'm a cosmetic freak.
Never really went for that Piccaso look, LMAO!
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I own a Prius, you cam't just shut off the ign switch. In order to shut
it off while it is moving, you have to hit the power button twice,
because of the computer programming. I learned this just recently, even
tough I have owned it for a year and a half. A new owner may not be
aware of this.
Bill
Richard Acuti wrote:
What a stupid article. In over 100 years of use, an ICE powered car has
never crashed into a building due to a stuck accelerator? The 12v
electrical system has never sparked a gasoline fire after an accident?
I can see some upset soccer mommy in front of a Congressional committee
now: "Hybrids and electric-drive cars are a menace to our highways and
must be stopped!"
You know, although the article quoted the guy saying he applied the
brakes, never once did he say "I shut off the ignition switch". I
realize he was taken by surprise and probably only had seconds to act
but that probably would have prevented the whole thing. Just as it would
for any other ICE vehicle.
Rich A.
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:17:31 -0800
From: Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Hybrid Car Crash - Tacoma WA - 3/6/07
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
As always ....The " PRESS" will fly in a helicopter, a crew, cameras,
etc. to cover a shooting, a robbery, a Car Accident..
any thing negative... But try and get them to cover an Electric Car
that CAN, a young person triumphing over some adversity, doing some
civic GOOD, building an EV, and the guy will tell ya..
"Good News Doesn't sell News Papers"
Well, this CRASH is not good news either.
KING TV NEWS:
http://www.king5.com/localnews/stories/NW_030607WABhybridcaraccidentJM.2646476e.html
And all this just on the heels of Sherry Boschert's visit to Seattle,
( My EAA counterpart from San Francisco) and her Book Tour for her new
book:
"Plug-In Hybrids: The Cars That Will Recharge America"
She did pull off a wonderful 1 hour interview on the local PBS station
( KUOW) You can go to their audio archives for 3/6/07...
the Weekday Show, and listen to it...
(short cut) http://www.kuow.org/defaultProgram.asp?ID=12364
But the Media being what the Media IS... Sherry only got to mention the
Seattle EV Association once, and on their web site where they list
Additional WEB information on the Subject of the interview..
no mention of SEVA or any of the PHEV, and EV work we have done
over the last 26 years...
That hurt a little...
But I know any of us involved in Self Promotion of EV's and PHEV's or
Alt Fuel in general have run into this...
So the Good Fight Goes ON.
_________________________________________________________________
The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by
Experian.
http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was very impressed with Bob Brant's Build your own electric vehicle.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of KARSTEN GOPINATH
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 5:58 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Reading Material
Hello I am researching building my electric car and I was wondering
whether anyone could recommend some reading material for me. I have
Convert It, Electric Vehicle Technology Explained, and Building your
own Electric Car. I am specifically interested in AC motors and Lithium
Ion tech. Thanks.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Peter Gabrielsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> I know you like to wrap the entire coil. I'm not
> entirely convinced
> that it is the best thing to do. (This is probably
> one of those
> instances when I should listen to the guy who has
> experience
> rebuilding thousands of motors.) From an electrical
> insulation
> standpoint it certainly makes sense, but it also
> increases the thermal
> impedance and thereby raising the temperature of the
> coil. However if
> you believe it's needed I'll trust you on it and
> wrap the rest of it
> too.
Hey Peter
Just wanted to get with you here. Whether you wrap
the whole coil or create a bobbin out of Nomex, you
will need to insulate any area between copper and
steel. That wire insulation will not be enough
insulation to prevent it from shorting out and you'll
end up with pole shoes and housing like what James is
looking at on his second motor, lots of welded copper
arcy sparky and a future call in to me, LMAO.
Now if you look back to when you stripped those coils
they had a complete Nomex shield anyway they contacted
steel. Now I haven't seen exactly thier completed
status but they weren't done from the last pic I saw,
hehe.
As far as heat goes I've seen a few coils in my day
and I've seen no evidence that the full wrap causes
heat retention in that it mattered. What I do see is
cracked, melted, or just plain burnt bobbins from
Nomex to plastics. The plastics become super brittle
as time and heat pass. Personally I like the dual
fiberglass / Nomex protection but you have to be
careful not to add to thick a build up or you'll pull
wings on you're pole shoes when tightening. That's
when the laminations distort and the coil seat only in
the mount hole area. Now if not enough insulation is
applied the coils vibrate and wear through what you
have and short out.
On a whole other note lets take Jeff's blown 9. If
he'd o had a fiberglass wrap there wouldn't have been
the field coil smear damage because the tough
fiberglass wrap would have taken the brunt of the
blow. Leaving the important winding insulation
intact.
Choice is totally yours as far as open faced or fully
wrapped but you must make sure no steel rest against
any copper wire and that the coils are held firmly
against the housing. Like I said the wire insulation
is just not enough.
Then again if you'd like a couple of James Massey
bumps, knock yourself out, LMAO!
In my book a little insight is better than an I told
you so, and I'm pretty solid on this one. 8^o
I think I better keep two eyes on you for awhile, LMAO
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss an email again!
Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Cor wrote:
> I read somewhere that the reason for good specs in small package
> of the Czonka is the use of a specific gas inside the enclosure.
I replied:
Yes, they use hydrogen.
Lee responded: If memory serves, I think it was sulfur hexafluoride. Anyone
have it written down anywhere?
Now THAT sounds nasty in the extreme...(but I'm not a chemist, so I've no clue
what that stuff does).
I remember reading about them in a design news or a machine design a few years
ago, and it was one of the featured products. The article definitely claimed
hydrogen. It may be available in the archives of those particular magazines if
they go back that far...Maybe a Tyco electronics tech sheet?
____________________________________________________________________________________
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll take your bumps of experience over my own flawed reasoning and
wrap the whole thing up.
Thanks again
On 3/8/07, Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
--- Peter Gabrielsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> I know you like to wrap the entire coil. I'm not
> entirely convinced
> that it is the best thing to do. (This is probably
> one of those
> instances when I should listen to the guy who has
> experience
> rebuilding thousands of motors.) From an electrical
> insulation
> standpoint it certainly makes sense, but it also
> increases the thermal
> impedance and thereby raising the temperature of the
> coil. However if
> you believe it's needed I'll trust you on it and
> wrap the rest of it
> too.
Hey Peter
Just wanted to get with you here. Whether you wrap
the whole coil or create a bobbin out of Nomex, you
will need to insulate any area between copper and
steel. That wire insulation will not be enough
insulation to prevent it from shorting out and you'll
end up with pole shoes and housing like what James is
looking at on his second motor, lots of welded copper
arcy sparky and a future call in to me, LMAO.
Now if you look back to when you stripped those coils
they had a complete Nomex shield anyway they contacted
steel. Now I haven't seen exactly thier completed
status but they weren't done from the last pic I saw,
hehe.
As far as heat goes I've seen a few coils in my day
and I've seen no evidence that the full wrap causes
heat retention in that it mattered. What I do see is
cracked, melted, or just plain burnt bobbins from
Nomex to plastics. The plastics become super brittle
as time and heat pass. Personally I like the dual
fiberglass / Nomex protection but you have to be
careful not to add to thick a build up or you'll pull
wings on you're pole shoes when tightening. That's
when the laminations distort and the coil seat only in
the mount hole area. Now if not enough insulation is
applied the coils vibrate and wear through what you
have and short out.
On a whole other note lets take Jeff's blown 9. If
he'd o had a fiberglass wrap there wouldn't have been
the field coil smear damage because the tough
fiberglass wrap would have taken the brunt of the
blow. Leaving the important winding insulation
intact.
Choice is totally yours as far as open faced or fully
wrapped but you must make sure no steel rest against
any copper wire and that the coils are held firmly
against the housing. Like I said the wire insulation
is just not enough.
Then again if you'd like a couple of James Massey
bumps, knock yourself out, LMAO!
In my book a little insight is better than an I told
you so, and I'm pretty solid on this one. 8^o
I think I better keep two eyes on you for awhile, LMAO
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss an email again!
Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
--
www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would imagine that others have seen these nice Siemens motors on E-bay.
Seems like a great deal. I'd buy all 10 if I could. Other than the custom
transmission mounting flange looks just like other Siemens motors. What say?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230099530972&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=013
Al
----- Original Message -----
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
> When spending 40 to 50A (at 100+V) just to turn the wheels on
> jackstands, that is an indication of severe drag.
Agreed.
> Either brake drag, or "goop" instead of thin oil in the
> transmission and diff, or bearings that are grinding the
> last remains of the balls to metal dust...
50A was with the brakes dragging, and 40A with the pads pried away from
the rotors; so "only" 10A @ 120V due to brake drag.
My tranny is full of fresh OEM spec oil, which admittedly is likely
costing me a bit more energy than a synthetic such as Redline MTL, but
to be responsible for this sort of loss the tranny would have to be full
of chassis grease ;^>
While I totally agree that this seems like an amount of drag indicative
of some severe problem, so far the only two people to report actual
numbers for FWD vehicles (myself and Lee) have both reported
surprisingly similar results for totally different vehicles. I think it
unliklely that it just happens that the two of us both have trannies
full of sludge and/or disintegrating bearings (which would be audible,
BTW ;^)
> Why would it take 5kW to perform no work, only overcome
> friction of unloaded wheels while the entire car is
> supposed to run at about 10kW while cruising down the
> road at constant speed?
I guess nobody ever bothered telling our EVs that they were supposed to
run at 10kW ;^>
Seriously, despite my car apparently consuming a horrendous 190Wh/mi
with the wheels in the air, it averages 300Wh/mi on my hilly commute,
which isn't all that far out of the realm of believability for a DC
conversion.
> NOTE that it is entirely possible that the used amp-meter did not
> correctly measure the current (peak-hold iso average) or that
> motor amps were reported, which can be large but if the motor
> voltage was 10V or so, then this does not represent a significant
> power draw....
Not in these cases. Lee and I both have E-Meters in our cars. I
reported battery amps and volts, and I'm sure Lee did also.
I'm at 120V and he's at 132V (or is it 144?).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Not in these cases. Lee and I both have E-Meters in our cars. I
> reported battery amps and volts, and I'm sure Lee did also.
> I'm at 120V and he's at 132V (or is it 144?).
The missing fact is that I was quoting *motor* current, not battery current
with the wheels in the air. Battery current was considerably lower.
Motor current is roughly proportional to torque, so it is the one to measure
when trying to get an idea of drive train losses and drag.
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> After my close-to-home trials the motor is usually too
>> hot to leave my hand on it. Adding a blower or driving
>> in a different gear make sense...
From: Matthew Milliron
> How about a piece of copper tubing bent into a long S shape.
> You could braze it onto the case or just use a few long hose
> clamps. Then a small radiator core and pump?
The heat isn't produced by the field coils (which are on the outside of the
case). Most of the heat is being produced by the armature; brushes and
windings. Cooling the outside case won't do much of anything to cool the
armature.
Liquid cooling a brushed DC motor is awkward. They do it by using a hollow
shaft, with seals at each end, and pumping the coolant through the shaft.
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, so about the battery meltdown thing. I must say that I think it's time
we EVers take racing and the exposure we give to our EVs in public forums
serious consideration. The hobby built, duct tape and spit cars do more
damage to the public perception of EVs than they do good, whether it be in
public shows or in racing events. The damage Dave described is a perfect
example. Lead acid batteries, both flooded and SLA should be secured in
sealed vented compartments and isolated from the passenger compartment -
period.
20 years ago it was cool enough just to have a car that ran on batteries and
to make sure people knew it. Big giant "this car is electric" lettering and
all that. Nowadays the bar is much higher to achieve the same "wow". We
absolutely must be diligent in putting our best feet forward in regards to
safety and performance if we are to achieve any sort of peer status.
As for racing, NEDRA in cooperation with NHRA achieved this with obvious
success. I would submit that due to the "racing for the masses" dimension
of Auto-Crossing, the stakes are much higher. The potential public exposure
to EVs (especially with the proliferation of SCCA events) is much more
mainstream, and press both good and bad will have greater impact.
That being said, we must keep the bar at a level that will ensure that
safety and performance are not sacrificed under any circumstances, even if
it means smaller fields of cars initially. We must be good stewards of EVs
and the technology that makes them possible, and not be irresponsible just
to be inclusive.
That was the main thrust behind EVAutoX. For those of you with experience in
these areas we could sure use all the help we can get.
Regards, Mike
Mike Harvey
Harvey Coachworks and EV
(877) 841-9730
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shawn Waggoner, FLEAA" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 3:14 PM
Subject: RE: Hybrid Car Crash - Tacoma WA - 3/6/07
In the article and on the video they mention that the guy had to get
multiple dealers to check the car to make sure it was safe...why? Was it
previously wrecked? I would believe that the brakes failed before I
believe
that computer or electronic failure caused the car to speed away. I wonder
if the brake system had a failure and that was why there was a problem
with
the car.
I agree with you Steve, it is very frustrating to hear this ignorance make
the news. Keep up the good work though!
Shawn Waggoner
Florida EAA
561-543-9223
www.floridaeaa.org
-----Original Message-----
From: Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 1:35 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Hybrid Car Crash - Tacoma WA - 3/6/07
Does the news actually know what caused the crash? What do
investigators say? Sounds like a computer failure of drive by wire
technology - not EV technology.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Steven Lough
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 13:18
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR
Subject: Hybrid Car Crash - Tacoma WA - 3/6/07
As always ....The " PRESS" will fly in a helicopter, a crew, cameras,
etc. to cover a shooting, a robbery, a Car Accident..
any thing negative... But try and get them to cover an Electric Car
that CAN, a young person triumphing over some adversity, doing some
civic GOOD, building an EV, and the guy will tell ya..
"Good News Doesn't sell News Papers"
Well, this CRASH is not good news either.
KING TV NEWS:
http://www.king5.com/localnews/stories/NW_030607WABhybridcaraccidentJM.2
646476e.html
And all this just on the heels of Sherry Boschert's visit to Seattle,
( My EAA counterpart from San Francisco) and her Book Tour for her new
book:
"Plug-In Hybrids: The Cars That Will Recharge America"
She did pull off a wonderful 1 hour interview on the local PBS station (
KUOW) You can go to their audio archives for 3/6/07...
the Weekday Show, and listen to it...
(short cut) http://www.kuow.org/defaultProgram.asp?ID=12364
But the Media being what the Media IS... Sherry only got to mention the
Seattle EV Association once, and on their web site where they list
Additional WEB information on the Subject of the interview..
no mention of SEVA or any of the PHEV, and EV work we have done
over the last 26 years...
That hurt a little...
But I know any of us involved in Self Promotion of EV's and PHEV's or
Alt Fuel in general have run into this...
So the Good Fight Goes ON.
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello all. After many years of starts and stops, my conversion is on the road.
It's not completely finished, but the basic vehicle is done. I figured I should
join the group so as not to reinvent the wheel too many times.
It is a 1981 VW Rabbit Pickup with the usual ADC 9" motor, 400 amp Curtis, and
120 volts of Trojan T125's. My goal is to have an EV that I can be proud to
show the general public, with some "bling" and "high-tech" to interest the
younger generation.
I plan on having an on-board PC with a data aquisition system and display as
well as an audio-visual system so the truck can tell curious passers-by about
itself when it is sitting in the parking lot.
Question number 1. ( I couldn't even get a definitive answer from ADC) On the
9" ADC motor, they tell you to hook your juice to A1 and S1, and jump A2 to S2.
In my situation it was easier to put juice to A2 and S2 and jumper A1 to S1.
Is there any difference or problem with that? It would appear to be fine.
Thanks, more lively debate to follow.
Alan Arrison
Southern, NJ
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A little something you may find of interest. Although there are some people
in this world who are very good at assembling information there are other
people in this world who are actually good at producing real things. Among
these real things are electric conversions. I hate to be the one to burst
your bubble about the idolization of Bob Brandt but the real truth is that
he has never done an electric conversion in his lifetime on the planet
Earth. I know that will come as a shock to many on this list including some
old timers, but hey, reality is reality. For all you armchair
converters/engineers you know exactly what I am talking about. First, I tell
people that if you are intelligent enough to wire a flashlight you can build
your own electric car. There is a negative side and a positive side. The
bulb is the motor, the switch is a little more complicated and more like a
light dimmer. You will want to have a fuse and a safety switch. It is one
heck of a lot less complicated than auto mechanics.
Here is a very interesting comparison for you. If you are a doctor you
work on two models of human beings. They have eleven systems some of which
are the skeletal system, a nervous system, a circulatory system, respiratory
system, digestive system, etc, just to name a few. Now take the average
automobile. They have the skeletal, (body/frame) fuel, heating, cooling,
(drivetrain), engine, transmission, dirrerential, all called the drive
train, suspension, fuel, computer, braking, etc. Now think about the
knowledge in bits of information that it takes to understand all of these
makes and models which change yearly. Remember that they are still making
the same two models of humans year after year. I have even figured out how
they do that :-)
In the case of a doctor they have these two models, a male and a female,
all systems the same except reproductive. Now you take the automobile,
similar systems yet totally different for each year make and model. So many
years out there and so many different models. They change all the time. From
my experience in the field there is no way in hell you will do a successful
transplant operation trying to put a Chevy clutch into a Saab. The very
simple point that I have been elaborately trying to point out here is that
an auto mechanic has to know many, many more bits of information than a
doctor. Also, that electrics are so simple that a layman can work on them.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Hrivnak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 7:11 PM
Subject: RE: Reading Material
I was very impressed with Bob Brant's Build your own electric vehicle.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of KARSTEN GOPINATH
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 5:58 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Reading Material
Hello I am researching building my electric car and I was wondering
whether anyone could recommend some reading material for me. I have
Convert It, Electric Vehicle Technology Explained, and Building your
own Electric Car. I am specifically interested in AC motors and Lithium
Ion tech. Thanks.
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.8/714 - Release Date: 3/8/2007
10:58 AM
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--- Begin Message ---
Incorrectly posted in the other thread...
Yeah, so about the battery meltdown thing. I must say that I think it's time
we EVers take racing and the exposure we give to our EVs in public forums
serious consideration. The hobby built, duct tape and spit cars do more
damage to the public perception of EVs than they do good, whether it be in
public shows or in racing events. The damage Dave described is a perfect
example. Lead acid batteries, both flooded and SLA should be secured in
sealed vented compartments and isolated from the passenger compartment -
period.
20 years ago it was cool enough just to have a car that ran on batteries and
to make sure people knew it. Big giant "this car is electric" lettering and
all that. Nowadays the bar is much higher to achieve the same "wow". We
absolutely must be diligent in putting our best feet forward in regards to
safety and performance if we are to achieve any sort of peer status.
As for racing, NEDRA in cooperation with NHRA achieved this with obvious
success. I would submit that due to the "racing for the masses" dimension
of auto-crossing, the stakes are much higher. The potential public exposure
of EVs (especially with the proliferation of SCCA events) is much more
mainstream, and press both good and bad will have greater impact.
That being said, we must keep the bar at a level that will ensure that
safety and performance are not sacrificed under any circumstances, even if
it means smaller fields of cars initially. We must be good stewards of EVs
and the technology that makes them possible, and not be irresponsible just
to be inclusive.
That was the main thrust behind EVAutoX. For those of you with experience in
these areas we could sure use all the help we can get.
Regards,
Mike Harvey
Harvey Coachworks and EV
(877) 841-9730
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 10:06 PM
Subject: RE: SCCA Problems with Electrics
I can't see how a few battery meltdowns could get you banned from a track
because of the cost of repairing it. After all gasoline powered cars catch
of fire and blow up on the track all the time.
From: David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: SCCA Problems with Electrics
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 08:56:08 -0800 (PST)
<http://sccaforums.com/forums/permalink/222005/221933/ShowThread.aspx#221933>
Quoted from http://www.sccaforums.com:
Two years ago at the SCCA convention someone brought up the idea in
the main Town Hall meeting about electric race cars. He basically
sort of accused the SCCA of not bothering to care about electric race
cars in general and said we needed to be exploring it. Then
someone from Arizona (IIRC) said their region had several folks who had
tried electric race cars but that they had several have battery
meltdowns on track and they were banned from at least one track because
of the damage and cleanup problems from this kind of failure. I
can only imagine that even if you got the necessary monitoring down to
prevent this that you'd still have to worry about the problems caused
by wrecks.
Anyway, the "meltdown" problem is one that should
definitely be carefully considered for autocross use since it's pretty
easy to lose sites these days and very hard to get new ones. All
that said, the idea of building an electric autocross car is fairly
intriguing. Think about the ramifications of being able to dial
your power delivery up and down based on how many runs you plan to take
and how long the course is. The tire cost debate would go out the
window compared to the battery cost debate, though! I used to
race electric RC off road buggies and believe me, you haven't seen
anything like the battery wars we could see in autocross with a popular
electric class!
The whole thread:
<http://sccaforums.com/forums/1/222005/ShowThread.aspx>
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
BIrds and Bees aside... Can you recommend some reading material I can
go through while I wait for my perfect donor vehicle to appear? A lot
of the material I'm going through seems a little dated. I'm finding it
hard trying to track down reading material on AC motors and
regeneration of power. Also trying to research some new battery
technology. Thanks for your help.
On Mar 8, 2007, at 9:03 PM, Roderick Wilde wrote:
A little something you may find of interest. Although there are some
people in this world who are very good at assembling information there
are other people in this world who are actually good at producing real
things. Among these real things are electric conversions. I hate to be
the one to burst your bubble about the idolization of Bob Brandt but
the real truth is that he has never done an electric conversion in his
lifetime on the planet Earth. I know that will come as a shock to many
on this list including some old timers, but hey, reality is reality.
For all you armchair converters/engineers you know exactly what I am
talking about. First, I tell people that if you are intelligent enough
to wire a flashlight you can build your own electric car. There is a
negative side and a positive side. The bulb is the motor, the switch
is a little more complicated and more like a light dimmer. You will
want to have a fuse and a safety switch. It is one heck of a lot less
complicated than auto mechanics.
Here is a very interesting comparison for you. If you are a doctor
you work on two models of human beings. They have eleven systems some
of which are the skeletal system, a nervous system, a circulatory
system, respiratory system, digestive system, etc, just to name a few.
Now take the average automobile. They have the skeletal, (body/frame)
fuel, heating, cooling, (drivetrain), engine, transmission,
dirrerential, all called the drive train, suspension, fuel, computer,
braking, etc. Now think about the knowledge in bits of information
that it takes to understand all of these makes and models which change
yearly. Remember that they are still making the same two models of
humans year after year. I have even figured out how they do that :-)
In the case of a doctor they have these two models, a male and a
female, all systems the same except reproductive. Now you take the
automobile, similar systems yet totally different for each year make
and model. So many years out there and so many different models. They
change all the time. From my experience in the field there is no way
in hell you will do a successful transplant operation trying to put a
Chevy clutch into a Saab. The very simple point that I have been
elaborately trying to point out here is that an auto mechanic has to
know many, many more bits of information than a doctor. Also, that
electrics are so simple that a layman can work on them.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Hrivnak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 7:11 PM
Subject: RE: Reading Material
I was very impressed with Bob Brant's Build your own electric vehicle.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
Behalf Of KARSTEN GOPINATH
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 5:58 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Reading Material
Hello I am researching building my electric car and I was wondering
whether anyone could recommend some reading material for me. I have
Convert It, Electric Vehicle Technology Explained, and Building your
own Electric Car. I am specifically interested in AC motors and
Lithium
Ion tech. Thanks.
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.8/714 - Release Date:
3/8/2007 10:58 AM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Roderick Wilde
> ...there are some people in this world who are very good at
> assembling information... there are other people who are good
> at producing real things...
Amen! Of course, the challenge is to figure out which category a given person
is in. I like the quote I saw recently..."The whole point of education is to
teach one to be able to recognize utter rot." :-)
> I tell people that if you are intelligent enough to wire a
> flashlight, you can build your own electric car...
In my BEST classes, we teach 4th-6th graders to build their own electric cars
from scratch. I remember a meeting where I had passed out little motors and
batteries to the teachers and mentors for the various school's teams. I told
them the motors were $0.50 surplus specials, and the AA batteries were used, so
they'd have to test them. One teacher was going on and on about how hard this
would be; the kids don't know how to wire them, they won't know what's good or
bad, and even she couldn't figure out how to do it. Meanwhile, my son (who was
in 3rd grade at the time), was going through the pile, and connecting a motor
to each battery in turn, and sorting them into good/bad piles...
Partway through her tirade, the teacher noticed what was happening. In a
classic moment like the old Saturday Night Live routine, she stops and says,
"Never mind."
It is *amazing* what people can do once they decide to do it! :-)
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This week's Eugene Weekly has an article on the BugE.
http://www.eugeneweekly.com
For those who don't recall, he designed the Gizmo, which had some success,
despite its relatively high cost. The BugE is now expecting to sell in the
$5K range for the kit... which makes it about 1/3 the cost the Gizmo would
be today (if still being built). It appears he leveraged his Electrathon
experience (he's been building a kit for years) and made a rig that is more
practical for every day driving... at neighborhood speeds.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: Hybrid Car Crash - Tacoma WA - 3/6/07
> You know, although the article quoted the guy saying he applied the
brakes,
> never once did he say "I shut off the ignition switch". I realize he was
> taken by surprise and probably only had seconds to act but that probably
> would have prevented the whole thing. Just as it would for any other ICE
> vehicle.
>
> Rich A.
I can understand this sort of thing happening if the controller ran away (as
per current postings) but if the cable stuck, don't the brakes have a cut
out circuit for the "pot"? My EVs (everything from my "big" one, down to my
cheapest scooter) have the pot wired through a brake switch. Apply the
brakes and the input to the controller cuts out. I assume this was done to
avoid apply brakes and throttle at the same time.
It won't save you if the controller "runs on"... but will keep a stuck
throttle out of the mix. My throttle cable stuck wide open. I braked to a
stop, took my foot off the brake and started surging forward... until I
reapplied the brakes, stopped, then flipped the breaker switch. (It turned
out there was a kink in the throttle cable near the pot. I rewired it so the
pot was activated by a 4" length of cable with no bends.)
With a run away controller, turning off the key probably wouldn't do the
trick(??). To my right I had the master breaker which could cut power from
the batts. After that run away, I extended the length of the breaker lever
to about 8" in length, with a T bat handle... so it'd be easier to hit in an
emergency. My only concern was that I might shove it too hard (panic) and
have to tow the car home. Better that than a full run-away condition.
--- End Message ---
