EV Digest 6533
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RAV4-EV (was: Electric Ford Ranger on E-bay)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) EAA - CalCars - and Bricklands "Visionary Vehicles" (LONG)
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: SCCA Problems with Electrics
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: RAV4-EV (was: Electric Ford Ranger on E-bay)
by Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
by "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Just the FACTS - no storybook version - HB 1820
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: SCCA Problems with Electrics
by "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Freedom EV Questions And a few answers.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Hybrid Car Crash - Tacoma WA - 3/6/07
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: FWD friction
by "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Nice AC motors on E-bay
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Economics of balancing amps
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: New EV'er
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: BugE again
by "David O'Neel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Heatsinking a Curtis - necessary for golf cart versions?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Heatsinking a Curtis - necessary for golf cart versions?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Hybrid Car Crash - Tacoma WA - 3/6/07
by Finn John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Chevy Volt again
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Alan> There is a 2000 Electric Ford Ranger on E-bay that is interesting,
Alan> because of the description, especially to someone new to the list.
...
Same company has a 2002 RAV4-EV w/ 22k miles, Buy It Now is at
$59,000... =:o
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=004&category=31872&sspagename=STORE%3APROMOBOX%3ANEWLIST&viewitem=&item=140091722916
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
"The hippies and the hipsters did some great stuff in the sixties,
but the geeks pulled their weight too." -- Billy Bragg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some one may have already "Cross-Polinated" this News ITEM but here it
is again:
--------------------------------------------------------------
Visionary Vehicles/Malcolm Bricklin Endorse CalCars & PHEV Campaign
Posted by: "Felix Kramer" [EMAIL PROTECTED] felixkramery
Thu Mar 8, 2007 10:05 am (PST)
Is this unprecedented? A startup automaker sees the benefit of
working with today's coalitions of car-buyers/drivers/early adopters,
technologists, companies and policy advocates.
Visionary Vehicles is the first to recognize it can capitalize on the
growing momentum for plug-in hybrids, instead of resisting it! We
hope this new company will succeed -- and that it will help speed the
transformation of the auto industry.
For media coverage about Visionary's announcement of its shift to
focus on PHEVs, see our CalCars-News posting January 9, "Could China
Deliver Affordable PHEV by 2009 with Malcolm Bricklin?"
<http://www.calcars.org/calcars-news/647.html>
Here's today's joint Visionary Vehicles/CalCars press release:
Visionary Vehicles Endorses CalCars
Malcolm Bricklin Throws Support to the Promotion as Well as the
Production of Plug-In Hybrid Cars
March 8, 2007 (Palo Alto, CA) -- Felix Kramer, CEO and Founder, Cal
Cars, today announced that Visionary Vehicles, the first 21st Century
car company dedicated to mass producing a full line of Plug-In Hybrid
Electric Vehicles (PHEVs) will has endorsed its organization and the
broad campaign to commercialize PHEV's.
"This starts the great Plug-In Race of the 21st Century. Companies
all over the world are stepping up to this international challenge.
Electrifying transportation and cleaning the fuels are the ways to
reduce our dependence on fossil fuels and decrease greenhouse gases
from vehicles. We can do it now, with no new infrastructure and no
technology breakthroughs. We at CalCars applaud Visionary Vehicles'
bold plans to mass-produce high-quality advanced technology vehicles
for the U.S. and international markets faster than any other
auto-maker thinks is possible -- while making a profit. They could
pave the way for the rebirth of an entire industry," announced Felix Kramer.
"Visionary Vehicles is committed to advancing this important new
technology and accelerating the adoption of PHEVs," said Malcolm
Bricklin, CEO and Founder. "We're opening competition, and motivating
the world's auto industry to make a transition to better, greener
cars. We plan to use quantity orders to reduce battery and component
prices and economies of scale to replace the cars people drive today
with what people really want: cars that are in the luxury category in
terms of design, engineering, performance, safety and reliability but
are affordable and get 100+mpg of gasoline."
"In addition to our work on our vehicles, we aim to become part of
the broader community that's driving the adoption of clean vehicles
among consumers and building support for those vehicles and their
technologies among public policymakers at local, state and national
levels," continued Bricklin. "To that end, we will support
CalCars.org, the California Cars Initiative, as well as other
industry and advocacy organizations working to advance this cause. We
will earmark a portion of the profit from every car that we sell to
contribute to transforming the transportation industry."
Visionary Vehicles also plans to reach out and join the Electric
Drive Transportation Association, the Electric Auto Association,
Plug-In Partners, the Infrastructure Working Council and
WestStart-CALSTART among other groups who are leading this important
advocacy effort including UC Davis Professor Andy Frank, the Electric
Power Research Institute and the California Electric Transportation
Coalition as well as Plug In America.
(snip)
CONTACT: For Visionary Vehicles
The Lexicomm Group
Kevin DeLeon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Wendi Tush [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CONTACT: For CalCars
Felix Kramer [EMAIL PROTECTED] [may be slow responding, at TED Conference]
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was skeptical at first - that's why I read the article (that and it was
talking about something that had ratings such that it would work in an EV). I
guess as long as it stays sealed, it's OK...Course if any oxygen gets in, then
it would be a bad thing when you turned it off.
I believe the article I read said something about electrical arcing properties
in the different gases, and that hydrogen didn't support it too well, so it
could break more amps and volts in a small space.
David Brandt
----- Original Message ----
From: Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Friday, March 9, 2007 11:00:17 AM
Subject: Re: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 4:35 AM
Subject: RE: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
> After half an hour Googling I still had no hits for "gas filled" in
> combination with Czonka,
> so I started clicking away at the Czonka Contactor hits and first found
> several specs saying that it was a sealed contactor, without specifying
what
> was inside, like:
> http://www.answers.com/topic/contactor200ampsealed-jpg
>
> Then I suddenly stumbled upon this site - is this the original (Chinese?)
> producer or a copy-cat of the Czonka?
> They are all Vacuum or SF-6 filled (the high voltage versions) except the
> larger contactors in the EV range which are..... Hydrogen filled!
> http://www.blueandgreen.co.kr/korean/product_list.asp?CateCode=600
> Hi EVerybody;
Hydrogen filled!!?? Wasn't that what helped bring down the
Hindenberg!?You want THAT in your sealed contactors? Not some more inert
gas? Howbout Helium? And it would lighten up the car a little<g>? Have had
enough batteries disasembled over the years with the hydrogen effect. Like
throwing gas on a fire to put it out?
My two Badd-ery explosions worth
Bob
____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss an email again!
Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It was a liquid Bromine battery that I heard about.
And a NimH one caught fire in the pits.
This is all back in the mid 90s at the APS races.
Many moons ago...
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: SCCA Problems with Electrics
> David,
>
> Thanks for posting this link. It is a fun thread.
>
> >
<http://sccaforums.com/forums/permalink/222005/221933/ShowThread.aspx#221933
>
> > Quoted from http://www.sccaforums.com:
> > Two years ago at the SCCA convention someone brought up the idea in
> > the main Town Hall meeting about electric race cars. He basically
> > sort of accused the SCCA of not bothering to care about electric race
> > cars in general and said we needed to be exploring it. Then
> > someone from Arizona (IIRC) said their region had several folks who had
> > tried electric race cars but that they had several have battery
> > meltdowns on track and they were banned from at least one track because
> > of the damage and cleanup problems from this kind of failure. I
> > can only imagine that even if you got the necessary monitoring down to
> > prevent this that you'd still have to worry about the problems caused
> > by wrecks.
>
> Let's see what the shared knowledge of the EV list can answer whether
> battery powered cars are dangerous to track surfaces.
>
> The most obvious suspect is flooded lead acid batteries. I have not worked
> with these much. I know not to get the acid in my eyes, on my clothes, on
my
> tender bits (and I do not think I want to know how some one found that
> out<G>) but what about splashed on the skin? Does it hurt? How quickly do
> you need to wash off the acid? Will it kill me? Will water cure me?
>
> What about a spill on the track? Will it damage the pavement? Will it
> discolor the pavement? How quickly? Will water get rid of the problem?
>
> I know there are a number of Arizona list members. Have any of you heard
> about battery powered cars damaging a race track?
>
> I have a vague recollection that at one of the APS EV races, there was a
> sodium sulfur battery pack that cracked open. The sodium sulfur battery
had
> an operating range of 572 to 673 degrees F. If the hot electrolyte spilled
> on the track, that might do some serious damage. Where ever I heard the
> story mentioned a nice cloud of toxic smoke. Anybody know the facts?
>
> Any other suspects? The only other battery that I can think of that has
> enough liquid to spill is nickel-cadmium. Anyone using EV ni-cads have
> answers about how dangerous to pavement or persons a spill is?
>
> Cliff
> www.ProEV.com
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rav 4 seems to be gone!
On Mar 7, 2007, at 8:30 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Alan> There is a 2000 Electric Ford Ranger on E-bay that is
interesting,
Alan> because of the description, especially to someone new to
the list.
...
Same company has a 2002 RAV4-EV w/ 22k miles, Buy It Now is at
$59,000... =:o
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&ih=004&category=31872&sspagename=STORE%3APROMOBOX%
3ANEWLIST&viewitem=&item=140091722916
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
"The hippies and the hipsters did some great stuff in the sixties,
but the geeks pulled their weight too." -- Billy Bragg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe the article I read said something about electrical arcing
properties in the different gases,
and that hydrogen didn't support it too well, so it could break more amps
and volts in a small space.
Hydrogen doesn't ionise easily and is a good thermal conductor. It's been
used in Sterling engines to improve the heat transfer, as has Helium, but
that ionises too easily to be used in a contactor.
Paul Compton
www.evguru.co.uk
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
www.bvs.org.uk
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.compton.vispa.com/the_named
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Several folks, Bill Moore, and others have wanted the UN-storybook
version of this legislation.
The "Law" is the existing limitations on NEV's to 25 mph. as my little
story states. House Bill 1820 is a modification, boosting the upper
speed limit of NEV's to 35.
About 2/3rds of the states have passed NEV regulations, most patterned
after the Federal Law. Don't know how that one reads exactly.
Here is all the REAL STUFF on HB 1820 for Washington State.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.aspx?bill=1820&year=2007
As to when, the bill will actually be passed and signed into LAW, I
think best guess is August.
( But if I could tell the future, I would win the lottery... Right ? )
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As one of the people was one of the people who was involved with the racing
at Firebird;
As I recall, the worst battery incident I saw was Emry Riddle(sp?) losing
one entire pack (one side) from their single seater. Some spectators were
misted with acid. Clothes were probably ruined, but the tearing response
easily took care of the eye contamination. I don't remember them doing
anything special to clear the track. Dilute sulphuric acid isn't going to do
too much harm to tarmac, but could damage concrete. Water will easily take
car of the spill. Race tracks don't like water (or oil/fuel) on the surface
and will treat them with a dry powder. Many things have been used, but you
really can't beat good old Portland Cement. This is a strong alkali and will
neutralise any remaining acid, but it's more of a risk to your eyes because
it will also absorb your tears.
Outside of the TV and Film world, battery acid really isn't all that bad
(and cars only started exploding when colour film was introduced!).
The most dangerous battery problem wasn't Sodium Sulphur (I don't think
anybody raced with them) but James Worden once ran a Solectria with a Zinc
Bromine battery and ended up trailing Bromine gas around the track. He was
lucky to get away with that one.
Paul Compton
www.evguru.co.uk
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
www.bvs.org.uk
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.compton.vispa.com/the_named
----- Original Message -----
From: "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: SCCA Problems with Electrics
David,
Thanks for posting this link. It is a fun thread.
<http://sccaforums.com/forums/permalink/222005/221933/ShowThread.aspx#221933>
Quoted from http://www.sccaforums.com:
Two years ago at the SCCA convention someone brought up the idea in
the main Town Hall meeting about electric race cars. He basically
sort of accused the SCCA of not bothering to care about electric race
cars in general and said we needed to be exploring it. Then
someone from Arizona (IIRC) said their region had several folks who had
tried electric race cars but that they had several have battery
meltdowns on track and they were banned from at least one track because
of the damage and cleanup problems from this kind of failure. I
can only imagine that even if you got the necessary monitoring down to
prevent this that you'd still have to worry about the problems caused
by wrecks.
Let's see what the shared knowledge of the EV list can answer whether
battery powered cars are dangerous to track surfaces.
The most obvious suspect is flooded lead acid batteries. I have not worked
with these much. I know not to get the acid in my eyes, on my clothes, on
my tender bits (and I do not think I want to know how some one found that
out<G>) but what about splashed on the skin? Does it hurt? How quickly do
you need to wash off the acid? Will it kill me? Will water cure me?
What about a spill on the track? Will it damage the pavement? Will it
discolor the pavement? How quickly? Will water get rid of the problem?
I know there are a number of Arizona list members. Have any of you heard
about battery powered cars damaging a race track?
I have a vague recollection that at one of the APS EV races, there was a
sodium sulfur battery pack that cracked open. The sodium sulfur battery
had an operating range of 572 to 673 degrees F. If the hot electrolyte
spilled on the track, that might do some serious damage. Where ever I
heard the story mentioned a nice cloud of toxic smoke. Anybody know the
facts?
Any other suspects? The only other battery that I can think of that has
enough liquid to spill is nickel-cadmium. Anyone using EV ni-cads have
answers about how dangerous to pavement or persons a spill is?
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.8/714 - Release Date: 08/03/2007
10:58
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice wrote:
OK I'll take a stab at it, the Freedom/Sunrise Story...
GREAT story as always, Bob. You'll have to write the book! I
particularly enjoy your Spoonerisms (Lumbergini, Harbor Fright, etc.)
Bob, I enjoyed your company and help immensely on the trip to FL. Don't
worry about the curb; accidents happen.
Sunrise chassis... We brainstormed here. Going with rear wheel drive,
finding Thunderbird rear independent suspension subframe... to be
bolted to the tubular, I think, frame, in which the 'glas platform
will fit over. Looks like the Ford Front end can be used, too.
The T'bird rear subframe itself is big and heavy, and 10" too wide for
the narrowed Sunrise rear track. So, we are making a new subframe out of
2" square steel tubing, that all the T'bird parts bolt on to. There is
room for considerable weight savings by replacing some of these parts,
but for our first car we'll use the T-bird parts to save money.
The T'bird front suspension looks like it can be used as-is. It's
simple, the right track, and fairly light already. It too will bolt to a
steel subframe, to maintain alignment and distribute the stress.
The front and rear subframes will be rubber mounted to the composite
chassis (no steel frame between them). The rubber distributes the stress
and prevents stress concentrations from cracking the composite chassis.
At the present pace, we should have a rolling chassis in a few more months!
Lee, like Jerry, wants to use as many common parts, from production
cars, as possible. You MAY want to buy a certain year T'bird for your
running gear?
Yes! The market doesn't need another $100,000 EV or more go-slow NEVs.
We want to build a car that the average person can afford, and can build
and maintain themselves.
Any Ford T'bird or Mercury Cougar from 1989-1997 will work. The V8
versions have the stronger 8.9" differential. The earlier ones had disk
front, drum rear, no ABS; later they went to rear disks, then added ABS.
We are going with a direct drive Warp 9" motor, and a Zilla for the
controller.
But of course, the car is being built so almost any imaginable motor,
controller, and batteries can be used. We're using the above setup
instead of AC primarily for cost, and to get data points on how well the
car can perform with an older-tech drive system.
Doors? Lee thinks we could use a production door and "Re-skin " it to
the body, neatly sidestepping building from scratch.
Yes; that's the plan. Use the "guts" of the T-bird doors, but
transplanted to a composite box. Doors are a major source of problems on
kit cars; we want to get this right!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The BS we hear up here in the area ,is that Exit is prone to having folks
try to shoot the light that you can see at the end of the exit ramp, Many
folks haul butt trying to beat the light.
This guy was still running a pretty good clip when he hit store ... So we
think this guy Cooked the exit, lost it and then had a nice ride into store
then the Cats lit off the pile of Twinkies that he just ran over.
The Brakes of a Prius are a pretty good design. I don't blame the car at
all.. something else happened.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 1:19 AM
Subject: Re: Hybrid Car Crash - Tacoma WA - 3/6/07
> On 3/8/07, Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > I own a Prius, you cam't just shut off the ign switch. In order to shut
> > it off while it is moving, you have to hit the power button twice,
> > because of the computer programming. I learned this just recently, even
> > tough I have owned it for a year and a half. A new owner may not be
> > aware of this.
> > Bill
> >
> > Richard Acuti wrote:
> >
> > > What a stupid article. In over 100 years of use, an ICE powered car
has
> > > never crashed into a building due to a stuck accelerator? The 12v
> > > electrical system has never sparked a gasoline fire after an accident?
> > >
> > > I can see some upset soccer mommy in front of a Congressional
committee
> > > now: "Hybrids and electric-drive cars are a menace to our highways and
> > > must be stopped!"
> > >
> > > You know, although the article quoted the guy saying he applied the
> > > brakes, never once did he say "I shut off the ignition switch". I
> > > realize he was taken by surprise and probably only had seconds to act
> > > but that probably would have prevented the whole thing. Just as it
would
> > > for any other ICE vehicle.
> > >
> > > Rich A.
> > >
> > >
> > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:17:31 -0800
> > > From: Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > > Subject: Hybrid Car Crash - Tacoma WA - 3/6/07
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
> > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > >
> > > As always ....The " PRESS" will fly in a helicopter, a crew, cameras,
> > > etc. to cover a shooting, a robbery, a Car Accident..
> > > any thing negative... But try and get them to cover an Electric Car
> > > that CAN, a young person triumphing over some adversity, doing some
> > > civic GOOD, building an EV, and the guy will tell ya..
> > > "Good News Doesn't sell News Papers"
> > >
> > > Well, this CRASH is not good news either.
> > > KING TV NEWS:
> > >
> >
http://www.king5.com/localnews/stories/NW_030607WABhybridcaraccidentJM.2646476e.html
> > >
> > >
> > > And all this just on the heels of Sherry Boschert's visit to Seattle,
> > > ( My EAA counterpart from San Francisco) and her Book Tour for her
new
> > > book:
> > > "Plug-In Hybrids: The Cars That Will Recharge America"
> > >
> > > She did pull off a wonderful 1 hour interview on the local PBS station
> > > ( KUOW) You can go to their audio archives for 3/6/07...
> > > the Weekday Show, and listen to it...
> > > (short cut) http://www.kuow.org/defaultProgram.asp?ID=12364
> > >
> > > But the Media being what the Media IS... Sherry only got to mention
the
> > > Seattle EV Association once, and on their web site where they list
> > > Additional WEB information on the Subject of the interview..
> > > no mention of SEVA or any of the PHEV, and EV work we have done
> > > over the last 26 years...
> > > That hurt a little...
> > > But I know any of us involved in Self Promotion of EV's and PHEV's or
> > > Alt Fuel in general have run into this...
> > >
> > > So the Good Fight Goes ON.
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by
> > > Experian.
> > >
> >
http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > In ALL Automobiles, ICE or EV or whatever, the brakes *must* be
able
> to stop the car EVEN while the engine is at FULL power. In Vermont where I
> took my first driving test, the instructor first of all checks to see
> whether the *emergency* brake (usually 1/2 or less as strong as the
service
> brake in passenger cars) can hold the car in gear under power.
> Those of you who have driven commercial trucks know about the braking
> system in those 23000+ pound vehicles. The wheel-chocks are really just
for
> show.
> I sincerely hope that this incident is due to driver error. If that
is
> not the case then Toyota is SEVERELY REMISS in marketing a car to the
public
> (regardless of its drive system) that is capable of overpowering its own
> service brakes. End Of Story.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One other thing, which as someone who just replaced both front wheel
bearings on his classic mini can vouch for, is that if the wheel
bearings have any play on them then there is reasonable possibilty
that some binding can occur at the brake caliper
Under braking the wheels are pulled upright and the bearings become
trued either buy that action or by cornering forces, bubt when the
braking is released the bearings slip out of true again, this results
in the brake disc sitting at a slight angle to the pad faces, and
resting on them at their extreme points.
I was getting continuous bake drag on my drivers side front wheel
prior to replacing the bearing, but now the pads only just skim the
surface as they're designed to do.
I must say, that on both sides the bearings had noticeable play, one
allowed at least another half degree of camber to be added to the
wheel, but the driver's side only exhibited slop when the wheel was
heaved backwards and forwards about it's top and bottom edges, but on
this car at least that was enough to provide more drag than before,
and I didn't do anything to affect the brakes during replacement so
I'm ruling that out.
Chris
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Claudio Natoli wrote:
> > Would changing brake hoses help prevent yours from unduly dragging
> > after adjustment?
>
> I've heard that they can contribute to the problem. But in my case,
the
> main problem is that the calipers do not move freely on their pins;
they
> bind in one position. And, the pistons do not roll back into their
> bores. This leaves the pads lightly dragging on the rotors.
>
> I recently discovered that Wilwood disk brakes are available for
almost
> any car. They have a fixed caliper, and separate cylinders for each
> side. Some models have real retracting springs, instead of relying
on
> the rubber seal to pull the pad back. The larger piston area means
> vacuum power assist isn't necessary. If they have 'em to fit my
car, I
> think I'll give them a try!
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
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$2K for a 33KW continous 3-phase AC motor is a tad overpriced, isnt it ?
how much does one weigh, by the way ?
Probably not 'that' overpriced given that there's an encoder
in there and everything. Peak power output is probably 80 to
100 kW with a reasonable controller for it. The Azure
equivalent is in the same ballpark price-wise. Industrial
(Baldor, Leeson) motors seem to be priced around $1000 or so
without an encoder. I was seriously thinking of building
a controller for one of those at one point, but I dunno.
My ICE car (VW Golf) was in a crash last night (with an
18-wheeler) so we'll see what the insurance company says
about it.... By the way, I'm ok - other driver's fault.
One thing with most AC induction controllers is they need
to be configured to the motor's characteristics - rotor
resistance, inductance, turns ratios, stator resistance,
encoder characteristics, etc. I would say a seasoned electrical
engineer (familiar with high power electronics and DSP's)
could probably build a controller for it and program it and
tune it, and if the goal is to spend a year doing it, it could
be done. It almost certainly would be possible to program another
controller to drive it but I think you'd be time (and possibly
money) ahead by just buying a complete matched system from
Victor (or Azure).
-Dale
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Lee Hart wrote:
...balancer that can move 5 amps... pull 5 amps from the best
battery to charge the worst one. At the end of your commute, both
batteries are at the same depth of discharge... and your range
has been extended 10% because you are no longer limited by
the weakest link.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
you make such a system to fix your deficient battery. It works,
but the purpose of BMS is not to fix battery which is bad.
Agreed; I'm not fixing a "bad" battery -- just maximizing the life and
range I get from batteries with normal amounts of variation.
If you put effort to get well matched pack you may not need $1000
balancer either. 'Course, few bother.
Yes, you can get twice as many batteries as you need, measure them all,
and assemble matched packs to get by without such a balancer. Dedicated
hobbyists and racers do this. But it is very labor-intensive, and very
expensive to do this in a production situation.
Most people don't want to bother. They would rather buy batteries "off
the shelf" and accept whatever normal variations there are.
tradeoff is economic. You have to look at what the balancing system
costs, and how much it adds to your range and life. I can't say how
it will work out for everyone, but in my own case, I figure my
balancer cost $1000, but doubled the life of a $1500 pack; so I'm
money ahead.
No, it didn't double life of the pack - the rest of the pack
without weakest battery would still get double life if
you only replace this *one* $50 battery. But you are
*replacing* it with $1000 "fix" system.
No, because EVers with these same batteries got less than half the life,
even with Rudman regulators. I believe the difference comes from
tailoring the charging *and discharging* to the individual capabilities
of each battery.
Thing is, 1% matched batteries would cost you the same
each (+ some effort selecting them) as only 10% matched.
But you can save your $1000 by making that effort.
You either have to pay someone to do the matching for you, or do it
yourself (and find a cooperative battery dealer who will take back the
ones you don't want after you've "cherry picked" the best ones). You may
be right that this matching costs less than $1000 -- but it could also
cost *more* than this if you're paying for labor.
Even if you match them initially, they won't stay matched over time.
Each battery will age differently. A 1% initial difference between them
will still grow to 10% or 20% before they get replaced.
We're not discussing used/known mismatched/different type/age
batteries you attempt to fix by substituting their capabilities
with balancers. We're talking about normal case - people buy
one set of batteries from one source (preferably one batch)
at one time. *Then* aggressive balancer never has chance to
exercise its full power and paying for it would likely be a waste.
You're correct that "aggressive" management isn't needed when they are
new, though it is still useful as it can extend range. It's real
usefulness comes into play as the batteries age, and drift farther
apart. I believe that more aggressive management lets you keep using the
batteries much longer, and thus lowers your cost per mile.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Al wrote:
Hello all. After many years of starts and stops, my conversion is on
the road.
Congratulations! The EV grins begin :-)
Question number 1. ( I couldn't even get a definitive answer from ADC) On the
9" ADC motor, they tell you to hook your juice to A1 and S1, and jump A2 to S2.
In my situation it was easier to put juice to A2 and S2 and jumper A1 to S1.
Is there any difference or problem with that? It would appear to be fine.
No problem at all!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
What got my attention was the original kit cost estimate of $3000, but then
I added up the replacement parts costs on the order form and it was over
$3000 without any of the drive components! It is realistic, but unfortunate
because that difference in cost will likely discourage many buyers. Any more
than $5000 and I would more likely take the plunge for a full-on conversion.
It really looks like a fun vehicle though, thanks for the links.
Dave O.
On 3/8/07, Michael Perry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
This week's Eugene Weekly has an article on the BugE.
http://www.eugeneweekly.com
For those who don't recall, he designed the Gizmo, which had some success,
despite its relatively high cost. The BugE is now expecting to sell in the
$5K range for the kit... which makes it about 1/3 the cost the Gizmo would
be today (if still being built). It appears he leveraged his Electrathon
experience (he's been building a kit for years) and made a rig that is
more
practical for every day driving... at neighborhood speeds.
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Lee Hart wrote:
> The missing fact is that I was quoting *motor* current, not
> battery current with the wheels in the air. Battery current
> was considerably lower.
>
> Motor current is roughly proportional to torque, so it is the
> one to measure when trying to get an idea of drive train
> losses and drag.
This seems counter intuitive, Lee.
Every motor model makes a different amount of torque per amp, so while
motor current might be a useful metric for before and after measurements
on a particular vehicle, it seems relatively useless for comparing
between dissimilar vehicles.
Your car has one of several flavours of 6.7" ADC, mine has an 8" ADC;
your motor torque measurements therefore would not be useful in
assisting me in determining if my drivetrain losses are typical or
abnormal.
However, our motors and controllers will have similar efficiency, so if
you were to measure the battery current and voltage instead you have a
measure of the power required to perform the test, and this seems to be
a metric that both allows useful before and after comparisons on a
single vehicle as well as comparisons between any pair of vehicles.
(And, since most vheicles will have a single voltmeter and ammeter, and
it will most likely be installed to monitor battery rather than motor
side values, this happens to be a much easier measurement to make as
well ;^)
Have I missed something?
Cheers,
Roger.
PS: You've also now managed to depress me, as I had taken your very
similar (presumed battery) current observations as indicative that my
drivetrain losses might not represent some major problem... ;^>
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Bruce wrote:
> My guess is that the high drag with the car on jackstands is
> coming from the CV joints being at a large angle.
I'm hoping that you may be right. I had thought of measuring the losses
with the wheels cranked to one side rather than straight ahead to see
how much that varied the losses, but didn't.
I will compare losses with the stands under the control arms vs the
frame and see what that reveals. I'm hoping that this and/or Cor's
suggestion of sludge in the tranny may be the major factors, but the IR
thermometer will hopefully reveal if the wheel bearings, etc. are also
at issue.
Cheers,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
I dunno, I could see this scenario actually happening,
especially if some bright spark had tried to mess with
the car's programming at some point. Or, the driver
could have freaked out and pinned the throttle pedal
without realizing it, like the elderly fellers in the
Buick Park Avenues sometimes do prior to plowing them
through a crowded bus stop. But no standard-issue
brake system will stop a car from freeway speed with
the throttle wide open. Disc brakes are great but they
will fade, and that Prius is a real torque monster
with both power sources howling. I could be wrong but
I just don't believe the brake system exists in a
production car selling for under 75 kiloquid that
could do that.
I don't think anybody's going to start screeching
about banning hybrids over this though. These rigs
have been all over the place since 2004 and haven't
forged a reputation for killing people yet.
My two cents ... I could be all wet on this ... but I
do think you're right, the fact that the guy is trying
to get the dealership to give him a new car makes the
"guy blew the curve and is now lying" scenario a bit
more likely. I guess they'll figure it out.
--Finn
--- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The BS we hear up here in the area ,is that Exit is
> prone to having folks
> try to shoot the light that you can see at the end
> of the exit ramp, Many
> folks haul butt trying to beat the light.
>
> This guy was still running a pretty good clip when
> he hit store ... So we
> think this guy Cooked the exit, lost it and then had
> a nice ride into store
> then the Cats lit off the pile of Twinkies that he
> just ran over.
>
> The Brakes of a Prius are a pretty good design. I
> don't blame the car at
> all.. something else happened.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 1:19 AM
> Subject: Re: Hybrid Car Crash - Tacoma WA - 3/6/07
>
>
> > On 3/8/07, Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > > I own a Prius, you cam't just shut off the ign
> switch. In order to shut
> > > it off while it is moving, you have to hit the
> power button twice,
> > > because of the computer programming. I learned
> this just recently, even
> > > tough I have owned it for a year and a half. A
> new owner may not be
> > > aware of this.
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > Richard Acuti wrote:
> > >
> > > > What a stupid article. In over 100 years of
> use, an ICE powered car
> has
> > > > never crashed into a building due to a stuck
> accelerator? The 12v
> > > > electrical system has never sparked a gasoline
> fire after an accident?
> > > >
> > > > I can see some upset soccer mommy in front of
> a Congressional
> committee
> > > > now: "Hybrids and electric-drive cars are a
> menace to our highways and
> > > > must be stopped!"
> > > >
> > > > You know, although the article quoted the guy
> saying he applied the
> > > > brakes, never once did he say "I shut off the
> ignition switch". I
> > > > realize he was taken by surprise and probably
> only had seconds to act
> > > > but that probably would have prevented the
> whole thing. Just as it
> would
> > > > for any other ICE vehicle.
> > > >
> > > > Rich A.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:17:31 -0800
> > > > From: Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > > > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR
> <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > > > Subject: Hybrid Car Crash - Tacoma WA - 3/6/07
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii;
> format=flowed
> > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > > >
> > > > As always ....The " PRESS" will fly in a
> helicopter, a crew, cameras,
> > > > etc. to cover a shooting, a robbery, a Car
> Accident..
> > > > any thing negative... But try and get them
> to cover an Electric Car
> > > > that CAN, a young person triumphing over some
> adversity, doing some
> > > > civic GOOD, building an EV, and the guy will
> tell ya..
> > > > "Good News Doesn't sell News Papers"
> > > >
> > > > Well, this CRASH is not good news either.
> > > > KING TV NEWS:
> > > >
> > >
>
http://www.king5.com/localnews/stories/NW_030607WABhybridcaraccidentJM.2646476e.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > And all this just on the heels of Sherry
> Boschert's visit to Seattle,
> > > > ( My EAA counterpart from San Francisco) and
> her Book Tour for her
> new
> > > > book:
> > > > "Plug-In Hybrids: The Cars That Will Recharge
> America"
> > > >
> > > > She did pull off a wonderful 1 hour interview
> on the local PBS station
> > > > ( KUOW) You can go to their audio archives
> for 3/6/07...
> > > > the Weekday Show, and listen to it...
> > > > (short cut)
> http://www.kuow.org/defaultProgram.asp?ID=12364
> > > >
> > > > But the Media being what the Media IS...
> Sherry only got to mention
> the
> > > > Seattle EV Association once, and on their web
> site where they list
> > > > Additional WEB information on the Subject of
> the interview..
> > > > no mention of SEVA or any of the PHEV, and
> EV work we have done
> > > > over the last 26 years...
> > > > That hurt a little...
> > > > But I know any of us involved in Self
> Promotion of EV's and PHEV's or
> > > > Alt Fuel in general have run into this...
> > > >
> > > > So the Good Fight Goes ON.
> > > >
> > > >
>
_________________________________________________________________
> > > > The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost
> to see yours: $0 by
> > > > Experian.
> > > >
> > >
>
http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > In ALL Automobiles, ICE or EV or whatever,
> the brakes *must* be
> able
> > to stop the car EVEN while the engine is at FULL
> power. In Vermont where I
> > took my first driving test, the instructor first
> of all checks to see
> > whether the *emergency* brake (usually 1/2 or less
> as strong as the
> service
> > brake in passenger cars) can hold the car in gear
> under power.
> > Those of you who have driven commercial
> trucks know about the braking
> > system in those 23000+ pound vehicles. The
> wheel-chocks are really just
> for
> > show.
> > I sincerely hope that this incident is due
> to driver error. If that
> is
> > not the case then Toyota is SEVERELY REMISS in
> marketing a car to the
> public
> > (regardless of its drive system) that is capable
> of overpowering its own
> > service brakes. End Of Story.
> >
>
>
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Apologies if this has been posted already..
There are some interesting pictures of what's under the hood of the
Volt concept vehicle here:
http://sirymarketing.blogspot.com/2007/03/more-on-volt.html
I particularly liked the DC motor, lead acid battery and the bucket of
laundry detergent.
That aside, there's some really interesting comment from a GM official
on the same page.
--
www.electric-lemon.com
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