EV Digest 6551
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Technical design/component/schematic info?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) PS Re: Technical design/component/schematic info?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) EV space suit (was BugE again)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV space suit (was BugE again)
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Technical design/component/schematic info?
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: distributed charging and equalizing
by "Al" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Lee's BMS Taking Orders now.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) FW: BugE again
by "bortel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: metro update
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Minute Sea Shells Are the Foundation for New Gas Detecting Devices,
Baterry Electrodes, Optic Devices, Chemical Purifiers...
by Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 640hp Mini (BMW) converted by PML and partners .. UK
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Another GTE in the ev album
by Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) smart4two .. electrification was Re: 640hp Mini (BMW) converted by
PML and partners .. UK
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Motor Mania Calendar (mostly OT,
except for the Electric Motor part)
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Question about optimal gear ratio and where to get gearboxes
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) State by State EV Incentives and Regulations?
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: 640hp Mini (BMW) converted by PML and partners .. UK
by david woolard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: 640hp Mini (BMW) converted by PML and partners .. UK
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Technical design/component/schematic info?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) brakes .. electrical ? more reliable than hydraulic (drum or disc type)
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: State by State EV Incentives and Regulations?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Welcome to the list, Skip!
My experience came from Mike Brown's "Convert It",
so I still push it. I'm a biology major, not an EE,
and some of the guys on the list have extensive auto
shop experience, but are not EEs either, so this is
not a barrier. Brown's book is just for us, as it
describes each component. Best $25 I ever spent on
EV-related stuff.
A 4-stroke Yamaha engine will get you from point A
to B just fine. But I like Honda Civic 16-valve
engines for efficiency and lower emissions.
Same with AC, as far as I'm concerned. AC motors
need higher voltages to be at their best performance.
That means batteries with high voltages, which mean
AGM batteries, in general. AGMs are more expensive,
and need careful charge regulation, or they will be
short-lived.
There are other AC controllers, but they don't
include the charger, as AC's do. I'm sure there are
other issues as well, but I'll leave those for
others...
Best to you.
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Okay, I've been on this list a couple weeks and have
> asked a couple stupid
> questions. Now for the taco grande...
>
> It would seem most of you have a lot of experience
> under your collective
> belts, while I'm coming at this with no EV-specific
> experience and no EE
> degree. Where can I find general information on the
> components which make
> up an EV, how they are wired together, examples of
> various parts (motors,
> batteries, controllers, what controllers go with
> what motors, why is AC
> Propulsion's stuff so expensive, etc)? I can infer
> a bit from places like
> Electro Automotive or evparts.com, but not a lot.
> EVWorld seems to be
> geared toward a much higher level presentation (lots
> of manufacturers'
> links, promotion/publicity and nontechnical overview
> articles, not a lot of
> actual technical content). Ditto for the Plug In
> America.
>
> I just stumbled on this wiki book:
>
>
>
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_conversion
>
> but have yet to look it over (that's my next task).
> Asking Google for
> similar pages just leads me to mediawiki.org and
> similar sites. I haven't
> stumbled on the proper incanation to feed Google
> that will get me suitable
> content from this list's archives either, though I'm
> sure there must be some
> useful stuff hidden away. Maybe there are some
> suitable del.icio.us tags I
> can use?
>
> I don't know yet whether or not I will tackle such a
> project, but I do want
> to investigate what's involved, where the technology
> stands today, etc. Any
> pointers cheerfully appreciated, so fire away.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -
> http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
> "The hippies and the hipsters did some great stuff
> in the sixties,
> but the geeks pulled their weight too." -- Billy
> Bragg
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
The fish are biting.
Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brown's book has the schematics. I thought I'd tell
you that my electrical knowledge comes from building
electronic special effects for my guitar equipment,
and also Radio Shack's 150-in-1 electronics kit.
peace,
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Okay, I've been on this list a couple weeks and have
> asked a couple stupid
> questions. Now for the taco grande...
>
> It would seem most of you have a lot of experience
> under your collective
> belts, while I'm coming at this with no EV-specific
> experience and no EE
> degree. Where can I find general information on the
> components which make
> up an EV, how they are wired together, examples of
> various parts (motors,
> batteries, controllers, what controllers go with
> what motors, why is AC
> Propulsion's stuff so expensive, etc)? I can infer
> a bit from places like
> Electro Automotive or evparts.com, but not a lot.
> EVWorld seems to be
> geared toward a much higher level presentation (lots
> of manufacturers'
> links, promotion/publicity and nontechnical overview
> articles, not a lot of
> actual technical content). Ditto for the Plug In
> America.
>
> I just stumbled on this wiki book:
>
>
>
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_conversion
>
> but have yet to look it over (that's my next task).
> Asking Google for
> similar pages just leads me to mediawiki.org and
> similar sites. I haven't
> stumbled on the proper incanation to feed Google
> that will get me suitable
> content from this list's archives either, though I'm
> sure there must be some
> useful stuff hidden away. Maybe there are some
> suitable del.icio.us tags I
> can use?
>
> I don't know yet whether or not I will tackle such a
> project, but I do want
> to investigate what's involved, where the technology
> stands today, etc. Any
> pointers cheerfully appreciated, so fire away.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -
> http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
> "The hippies and the hipsters did some great stuff
> in the sixties,
> but the geeks pulled their weight too." -- Billy
> Bragg
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> With one key distinction: weather protection - sort of.
Here's a stupid question - sort of. :-)
Somewhere I saw a photo of one of the NASA astronauts all suited up in his
space suit, complete with the portable battery operated air conditioner
'suitcase' that they carry. He was riding a motorcycle. :-)
Since then, I've always wondered why someone hasn't built a terrestrial version
of a space suit that provides environmental protection, air conditioning,
communications, and even a drink and a light snack :-)
Yes, they are heavy and it takes power to run them. But, if you're riding a
motorcycle, you're sitting down and right on the power source. Same is true for
driving a car -- instead of air-conditioning the whole car, just air condition
the driver.
Think of it as a deluxe version of a nomex "cold suit" that race car drivers
use, with little tubes circulating water from an ice chest.
Couldn't this get the power consumption needed to make the driver comfortable a
lot lower?
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not to mention the built in urin receptacle.
Uhm, moving on... maybe putting tubes with circulating coolant in the
seatbelt would be enough to satisfy your everyday cooling needs.
On 3/13/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> With one key distinction: weather protection - sort of.
Here's a stupid question - sort of. :-)
Somewhere I saw a photo of one of the NASA astronauts all suited up in his
space suit, complete with the portable battery operated air conditioner
'suitcase' that they carry. He was riding a motorcycle. :-)
Since then, I've always wondered why someone hasn't built a terrestrial version
of a space suit that provides environmental protection, air conditioning,
communications, and even a drink and a light snack :-)
Yes, they are heavy and it takes power to run them. But, if you're riding a
motorcycle, you're sitting down and right on the power source. Same is true for
driving a car -- instead of air-conditioning the whole car, just air condition
the driver.
Think of it as a deluxe version of a nomex "cold suit" that race car drivers
use, with little tubes circulating water from an ice chest.
Couldn't this get the power consumption needed to make the driver comfortable a
lot lower?
--
Lee Hart
--
www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mar 13, 2007, at 7:16 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Where can I find general information on the components which make
up an EV, how they are wired together, examples of various parts
(motors,
batteries, controllers, what controllers go with what motors,
I recommend you start with these two books:
Convert It! by Mike Brown and Shari Prange
<http://www.amazon.com/Convert-Michael-Brown/dp/1879857944/>
Convert Your Own Electric Vehicle, by Bob Brant
<http://www.amazon.com/Build-Your-Own-Electric-Vehicle/dp/0830642315/>
Also available at many of the EV parts sellers such as
<http://www.evparts.com>.
The first is good concrete how-to information on how to convert an ICEV
to an EV. The second has a lot of theory and math to help you figure
out how to design the vehicle you want. Both books are dated, but
still mostly valid. I would love to see an update to these books that
includes new developments like the Zilla controllers, the PFC chargers,
the more affordable AC systems from Electro Auto and Metric Mind, etc.
Check your local library for these books, or any others that are in the
Electric Vehicles subject.
You can also get some free consulting from Bob Batson at EV America.
<http://www.ev-america.com/techassist.html>
Also, read as many online EV conversion journals as you can find, and
browse the EV Album.
Good luck,
Doug
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the comments guys.
The Batmods would be the easiest and best way to go, but 20 times about $170
equals $3400! (only $1700 with 12 volt batteries)
You can get active PFC PC supplies for $30 to $40.
Then a bit of surgery and a PIC can put each "charger" on a network (can,
usb, etc)
Any PIC programmers out there? ;)
The "main" computer ( basic stamp?) would then monitor and control the
chargers for both charging off AC mains (any voltage from 100-240)
or real time equalizing using the full DC pack volts (100 to 240)
I'm going to have a look at some PC supplies and see how much trouble it
would be to make them "work" in this manner.
I have considered this effort after reading the many posts regarding battery
equalization and the apparent substantial improvements in overall battery
life and efficiency. (And, as any good EV'er knows - love thy batteries)
Is this a futile effort? (I'm sure there have been plenty of them discussed
here) Should I spend my time/money elsewhere?
Thanks, Al
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have exchanged a few emails with Lee on how to proceed.
Lee recommended we set a date of 30 days.
Lets make it April 15.
Orders will be recognized with a deposit of 50 percent of an estimated
price. Checks will be held until just before production is started. When parts
are
done balance would be due before shipment.
Prices will be just what they cost to build and ship to you. If someone
decides not to follow though with an order? The complete unpaid order would
have
to be sold to someone else before refunding any money.
Don Blazer
In a message dated 3/13/2007 2:26:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> From: brian baumel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2007/03/12 Mon AM 11:23:06 EST
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Lee's BMS?
>
> hello everyone,
> is there an order in the process for some of Lee
> Hart's BMS boards??
I'm hoping that the group that is getting this order will or can work
together to get things going without bothering Lee to much , if at all . It is
easy
for people like Lee , Rich and Ot to get way overloaded with questions and
then never get anything done .. So for there sake we need to help each other
as a group as much as possible and only bother them when we can't as a group
figure out somthing ..
if so I'd be interested! I'll need
> two relay boards (string of 10+1)and naturally the
> control board. who do I make the check out to and for
> how much?
ah and so it begines ,,, I didn't keep up with the last build ,, it went off
list but this time I'm in for the ride ,
>I may need a little help in the programming,
Me to , I've never done any
> but I've done some PIC programming before...
hope we can work together , and not wear Lee out ... we need him for other
stuff .
Lee last I heard Mr C was going to get 2 .
Steve Clunn I like the phone also so you can call me 772 971 0533
>
> Brian B.
> 81' Bradley GTII
>
> --- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > HI Lee I have sombody interested (as I am) in
> > putting together one
> > > of your bms's. I know you needed 10 orders to pay
> > for the boards.
> > > I could get 5 controller boards if this would help
> > make an order.
> >
> > Yes, that would certainly push us "over the hump"! I
> > still have your
> > deposit check for one, but would probably replace it
> > before actually
> > ordering (it's probably not good any more).
> >
> > The Relay boards are done and ready to order. The
> > Control board could be
> > done if I quit tweaking it (time to shoot the
> > engineer).
> >
> > So, let me know if this is a serious order for 5,
> > and I'll proceed
> > accordingly.
> > --
> > Ring the bells that still can ring
> > Forget the perfect offering
> > There is a crack in everything
> > That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> > leeahart_at_earthlink.net
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I went down and spent a few hours with Mark Murphy about a week ago looking
at and talking about the BugE prototype. I have to say he has really done a
nice job with this design. The fit and finish is almost perfect and what
small problems the prototype still has will be fixed by the time it is
produced.
Although it is only about half the weight of his earlier design the Gizmo,
it appears to be a much safer design. The reduced weight also makes it a
much more peppy and efficient vehicle.
I had some concern about the open back and the Oregon rain, but Mark has the
aerodynamics worked out keep this from being a problem. The wind and rain
simply passes by the shell and doesn't blow onto the driver.
The other nice thing about this design is it's elegant simplicity. Mark
thinks that someone with moderate skills could put this kit together less
than 40 hours. After looking at it in depth, I think anyone that has worked
at all with EVs could do it in much less time.
Also it is an extremely flexible design. If you want to use a bigger motor
or more voltage for more speed, it can be done. If you want to add a second
seat for a child or a motorcycle double seat, you can do that. If you want
to make it an HPV hybrid, that's also possible.
The local alternative newspaper in Eugene just did a great front page
article on the BugE that you can read at: www.eugeneweekly.com .
This is IMHO a great all weather motorcycle at an incredible price and I
want to be one of the first to get one.
Later,
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: Darin - at - metrompg.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 8:33 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: BugE again
I see there are also a few more videos of the machine in action, posted
on the BugE site (and at YouTube):
http://www.blueskydsn.com/BugE_First_Movie.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Besides not using the G29, what is the best way to
connect it to the tranny?
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> mike golub wrote:
> > I don't see any wobble. How would I know if it is
> loose?
> > This is the popular cheap motor that evolks uses.
>
> Look at the back end of your motor (opposite the
> shaft end). Pull off
> the cover, and see if it actually has *two* shafts,
> one inside the
> other. If so, there will be a snap ring at the end
> of the inner shaft.
> Remove it, and the inner shaft slides out from the
> other end.
>
> Now you can see that the motor itself has a hollow
> shaft, with a bearing
> at each end. The inside of this shaft is splined. It
> only connects (via
> the splines) at the *back* end of the motor. The
> front end of this shaft
> is free to move sideways; there is no bearing!
>
> The intention is that you mount these
> motor/generators directly to the
> crankshaft or turbine shaft of an aircraft engine.
> The mounting might be
> a bit off-center due to bolt hole tolerances, etc.
> So, the free-floating
> shaft can flex a bit off-center, to engage the
> splines on the aircraft
> engine -- The engine has the bearings to center the
> motor/generator's shaft.
>
> You can't attach flywheel, torque converter, or even
> a direct-drive
> coupler between these motors and a vehicle's
> transmission. That's
> because a vehicle's transmission also has a floating
> shaft; it depends
> on the engine's bearing to center the shaft. At
> best, it will vibrate.
> At worst, it will shake itself to pieces.
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need Mail bonding?
Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Minute Sea Shells Are the Foundation for New Gas Detecting Devices,
Baterry Electrodes, Optic Devices, Chemical Purifiers...
Category: SOFTPEDIA NEWS :: Science :: Nano-Biotechnology
The complex diatoms
By: Stefan Anitei, Science Editor
Silicon shell from Aulacoseira diatom
Silicon shell from Aulacoseira diatom
Photo: Ken Sandhage
Nature has found complex models long before humans discovered them and
most of them are more effective than the human ones.
The three-dimensional shells of tiny ocean algae, called diatoms, could
offer the foundation for novel electronics, like gas sensor devices that
could be faster and more efficient than conventional devices.
A chemical process replaces the shells’ original silica (silicon
dioxide, SiO2) into the semiconductor silicon, in a unique and intricate
nanoscale three-dimensional (3-D) shell model. The silicon shell,
achieved after a seven-year research, could also be employed as battery
electrodes, chemical purifiers and in other applications where complex
shapes are necessary and which nature can produce better than humans
can. "When we conducted measurements for the detection of nitric oxide,
a common pollutant, our single diatom-derived silicon sensor possessed a
combination of speed, sensitivity, and low voltage operation that
exceeded conventional sensors," said Kenneth H. Sandhage,
a professor in the School of Materials Science and Engineering at the
Georgia Institute of Technology.
"The unique diatom-derived shape, high surface area and nanoporous,
nanocrystalline silicon material all contributed towards such attractive
gas sensing characteristics."
There are about 100,000 species of diatoms, and each species has a
microshell with a unique and often complex 3-D shape, from cylinders to
wheels, fans, donuts, circles and stars.
The researchers would like to get genetically-modified diatoms that
synthesize microshells with tailored shapes. However, to precisely alter
and control the structures produced, further research is needed to learn
how to manipulate the genome of the diatom.
Diatoms are easily cultivable in large volumes, and genetically
engineered diatoms would allow mass-production of complex and tailored
microscopic shells. "Diatoms are fabulous for making very precise
shapes, and making the same shape over and over again by a reproduction
process that, under the proper growth conditions, yields microshells at
a geometrically-increasing rate," said Sandhage.
Living Aulacoseira
Living Aulacoseira
"Diatoms can produce three-dimensional structures that are not easy to
produce using conventional silicon-based processes. The potential here
is for making enormous numbers of complicated 3-D shapes and tailoring
the shapes genetically, followed by chemical modification as we have
conducted to convert the shells into functional materials such as silicon."
Silicon is normally got from silica at temperatures over 1,414o C (the
silicon melting point), when it cannot remain in the pattern of the
silica shell.
So the team employed a reaction with magnesium gas that turned the
silica of the shells into a composite containing silicon (Si) and
magnesium oxide (MgO), at only 650 degrees Celsius, fact that allowed
preservation of the complex shell patterns.
The magnesium oxide (about two-thirds of the composite) was then washed
away by a hydrochloric acid solution, leaving a highly porous silicon
structure and keeping the original shape.
Traces of silica created by reaction with the water in the hydrochloric
acid solution were removed with hydrofluoric acid (HF)
Various diatom models
Various diatom models
The individual silicon structures were connected to electrodes, and when
charged with current were employed in detecting nitric oxide.
The silicon shells, roughly 10 micrometers in length, could also be
employed to catch enzymes for purifying drugs in high-performance liquid
chromatography (HPLC) and as better electrodes in lithium-ion batteries.
"Silicon can form compounds that have a high lithium content. Because
diatom-derived silicon structures have a high surface area and are thin
walled and highly porous, the rate at which you can get lithium ions
into and out of such silicon structures can be high. For a given battery
size, you could store more power, use it more rapidly or recharge the
battery faster by using such structures as electrodes." said Sandhage.
The team found that this silicon was photoluminescent: it glows when
illuminated by certain wavelengths of light, thus it may have photonic
applications.
The new sensors must be packaged into useful arrays of devices scaled up
for volume manufacture. "We can target diatoms of a certain shape,
generate the right chemistry, and then work with applications engineers
to get these unique structures into practice. We are now at the point
where we have a good idea of the chemical palette that is accessible
with the conversion approaches we have taken. The next step is really to
start making packaged devices”, said Sandhage.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A little bit of simple arithmetic pegs the BS meter. If there were
zero voltage sag and 100% electrical efficiency, all the listed power
sources in the car, batteries, ultracaps, and APU don't add up to 640 HP.
Bill D.
At 01:12 AM 3/13/2007, you wrote:
http://www.worldcarfans.com/news.cfm/newsID/2060724.006/page/2/country/ecf/lang/eng/mini/pml-builds-640hp-electric-mini
amazing specs .. and with a 4 yr effort concentrated on producing
only two converted
bmw mini's it looks like very serious research
i dunno if any of us can suggest improvements in any areas which
they have already
covered .. ultra-caps, 250cc engine-generator(20kw), 160hp hub motors in EACH
wheel to give a total of 640hp .. 0 to 100 in under 5 seconds ..
with almost complete
recovery of energy by braking ONLY in regenerative mode .. 1000
times per second
sensing of hub motor in tyre and compensatory increase/decrease of
energy to other
tyres .. touch screen input based displays .. and a heavy enough car
(crash safety)
..peekay
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got my Bradley GTE entered in the ev album today. Another electric on
the road.
Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
thanks john
what a put off :-((
such releases do give EV's a bad name
i need to erase this from my memory
now, about smart4two which was to have been
either a hybrid or a pure ev .. there is a company
converting it to only electric in UK .. good for
use there since there is a lot of incentive to go
electric (even reva is okay for uk parliamentarians !)
will a smart4two EV work well enough ?
..peekay
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: 640hp Mini (BMW) converted by PML and partners .. UK
> Hello Peekay and All,
>
> peekay wrote:
>
>
>http://www.worldcarfans.com/news.cfm/newsID/2060724.006/page/2/country/ecf/
lang/eng/mini/pml-builds-640hp-electric-mini
> >
> >amazing specs ..160hp hub motors in EACH
> >wheel to give a total of 640hp .. 0 to 100 in under 5 seconds ..
> >
>
> What's amazing, is that anyone believes them. 640 hp? Give me a break!
> If it 'really' has 640 hp, it should do 0-60 in 2 seconds and run a high
> 8 second - low 9 second 1/4 mile, not 'under 5' which suggests 5
> seconds, and a 'not talked about' more than likely 14 second 1/4 mile.
>
> > and with a 4 yr effort concentrated on producing only two converted
> >bmw mini's it looks like very serious research
> >
> >
>
> In four years time, you think they could design away those goofy wheels
> with their 'stuffed full of yellow concrete' look that stick too far out
> at each corner! Evidently, they were so measurmerized about using hub
> motors, it didn't matter what it took to put them in the car. Talk about
> unsprung weight! They must have employed the same engineer who
> 'designed' the squeal'n Curtis controller (without any regard for the
> end user of his ill-conceived product)...so bent on using a hub motors
> at each wheel, with no regard for the aesthetics and end user effect.
> Their 'serious research' managed to ruin the looks of the Mini, managed
> to make it a $200,000 car, and managed to make it have terrible
> performance for a four motor car with a touted 640hp...as I said, give
> me a break! This kind of project only gives EVs a bad name.
>
> >i dunno if any of us can suggest improvements in any areas which they
have already
> >covered ...
> >
>
> Well, I sure could! The first improvement would be to tear it all apart
> and start over. Get rid of whoever was in charge of the project, and get
> someone who likes cars. Throw away all four of those goofy hub motors
> that ruin handling, ruin the looks of the car, and add way too much
> weight. Replace all of them with one single hi pro motor (AC or DC) in
> the original engine location and use one controller, not four. Use A123
> LiIon batteries instead of Li Pol that in order to give BIG amps need
> those heavy expensive ultra caps, so you can throw them out, too.
>
> The revised version would look like a Mini instead of a frog with
> swollen appendages, it would weigh perhaps 800 - 1000 lbs. less, it
> would travel farther per charge, it would have a real 250 hp or so (not
> some marketeer's 640 hp), and it would rocket 0-60 in 4 seconds
> flat...all at a fraction of the price. It would also be a proud
> achievement that would garner praise for EVs, instead of an extremely
> expensive, goofy looking engineer's dream that boasts of non-existent
> 'delivered horsepower'.
>
> See Ya...John Wayland
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date: 3/12/2007
7:19 PM
>
>
___________________________________________________________
All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease
of use." - PC Magazine
http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
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--- Begin Message ---
First for the record, "I" never mentioned your wife.
Second the same goes for me when reading your posts. I just about bruised a
rib reading the posts about your evil twin with the
Darth Vader voice, Internet Motor School and John stuffing his donut hole with
Krispy Creams. You should have taken a whole box
and told him to charge John for suckering you like that ;-) My wife took it as
a special moment actually seeing me crying.
And third now that you mention it I didn't see any electric motors in those
pics either. It must have been the subliminal message
at the bottom that said "Electric Motor Service". You know, if your calendar
actually had pictures of motors you wouldn't even
have to add the words at the bottom. With all these guys earning their own
lumps and owing you pictures you shouldn't have to do
any extra work when you get them. Maybe just comb the archives and include one
of your gut busting quips on each months feature.
Maybe change the Calendar title to Motor Madness by Jim "aren't you guys glad I
got all of my evil out when I was young" Husted.
Or Motor Stuffing by Jim "shoulda grabbed a whole box of those Krispy Creams"
Husted ;-P
BTW, so this thread bears some semblance to its title (and assuming David reads
this far without busting me first), we ordered our
TWarp9 and WarP9 pair last Friday for the Pinto. If George at NetGain is
reading maybe he could let us know when the TWarP9's come
off the line. If I divert the shipment your way could we talk you into a comm
banding on the pair? You can EVen take pictures as
long as you don't label them in your calendar as "The Evil Twins". I'll also
need to get your input on where to set the Redline
on these two beasties with and without banding. I promise I'll put the RPM
sensor on right away. Don't need these guys showing
up on no Hall of Flame Calendar :-O Especially if you're going to sell it and
make money ;-)
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Jim Husted
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 4:13 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Motor Mania Calendar (mostly OT, except for the Electric
> Motor part)
>
>
>
> Hey Mike
>
> First off I have to make this quick before the wife
> gets home cause she says I can't talk to you no more
> cause you called her ugly! LMAO!
>
> Second, I've got to learn to not be drinking anything
> when I read your posts, ROF.
>
> Third, I knew what you meant, but there wasn't a motor
> in that calender, not that I saw anyway 8^o
>
> oops there's David gotta run, hey I didn't start this
> thread, get Mike, I thought I sent this private, LMAO
>
> Had fun
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Finding fabulous fares is fun.
> Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and
> hotel bargains.
> http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I hear the number 10:1 thrown around, and it's also used in custom gearboxes
for the AC24, and MES DEA motors.
I'm wondering, given a motor torque/rpm curve, how would one calculate the
optimal gear ratio? Efficiency, acceleration, top speed, etc, would all have to
be balanced. I'm not sure where to begin. Also, where does one get a custom
gearbox/diff made? I did some googling and couldn't find anything except custom
racing transmissions which I don't need. I need just a one ratio gearbox. Would
a torque limiter, or something that allows slip, be needed to protect the motor?
- Tony
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone ever put together a state by state listing of the
incentives and regulations that apply to electric vehicles? I was
hoping to find a comprehensive list I could forward to my state
legislators to try and get Missouri out of the dark ages. (No
incentives, no support, just an additional tax.) I guess such a list
might also be something that should be posted on the web as well.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In support of PML I have to say that their BLDC wheel
motors do seem to be quite sophisticated. They also do
sell their motors to individuals, unlike a few other
EV technology companies.
The PML mini is certainly over-hyped but the wheels
were artificially spaced out during the car shows to
"emphasise" the wheel motors, again probably down to
the marketing dept. In normal use (although with no
mech. brakes, there is no normal use) they would be in
their usual inset position.
Cheers
DaveW
___________________________________________________________
The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from
your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a related question. why are the "mechanical" brakes considered an
absolute necessity ? ( by mechanical, i think most people mean normal
hydraulically operated disc brakes )
i mean, shorting the wires of async or brushless dc electric motor is
pretty reliable way to force the emergency brakes on, only way to make
the wheels turn again would be melting the copper or motor falling
apart.
I'd say, if properly designed, it could be more reliable than the
hydraulic brakes used on most cars, which do break down from time to
time.
Say, flooring the brake pedal would short the motors directly or over
a resistor coil ?
/kert
On 3/14/07, david woolard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
In support of PML I have to say that their BLDC wheel
motors do seem to be quite sophisticated. They also do
sell their motors to individuals, unlike a few other
EV technology companies.
The PML mini is certainly over-hyped but the wheels
were artificially spaced out during the car shows to
"emphasise" the wheel motors, again probably down to
the marketing dept. In normal use (although with no
mech. brakes, there is no normal use) they would be in
their usual inset position.
Cheers
DaveW
___________________________________________________________
The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from
your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another great source is downloadable users manuals of specific components. One
example, the Zilla controller: http://cafeelectric.com/products/zilla/HB202.pdf.
Even if you don't use the particular product, you can get some great insight
about how things wire together from these manuals. It also helps you make
decisions as to which products best fit your needs.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 10:37 PM
Subject: Re: Technical design/component/schematic info?
On Mar 13, 2007, at 7:16 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Where can I find general information on the components which make
> up an EV, how they are wired together, examples of various parts > (motors,
> batteries, controllers, what controllers go with what motors,
I recommend you start with these two books:
Convert It! by Mike Brown and Shari Prange
<http://www.amazon.com/Convert-Michael-Brown/dp/1879857944/>
Convert Your Own Electric Vehicle, by Bob Brant
<http://www.amazon.com/Build-Your-Own-Electric-Vehicle/dp/0830642315/>
Also available at many of the EV parts sellers such as
<http://www.evparts.com>.
The first is good concrete how-to information on how to convert an ICEV to an
EV. The second has a lot of theory and math to help you figure out how to
design the vehicle you want. Both books are dated, but still mostly valid. I
would love to see an update to these books that includes new developments like
the Zilla controllers, the PFC chargers, the more affordable AC systems from
Electro Auto and Metric Mind, etc.
Check your local library for these books, or any others that are in the
Electric Vehicles subject.
You can also get some free consulting from Bob Batson at EV America.
<http://www.ev-america.com/techassist.html>
Also, read as many online EV conversion journals as you can find, and browse
the EV Album.
Good luck,
Doug
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from
AOL at AOL.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i guess like the brake shoes gave way to disc brakes (simpler
cheaper more reliable) .. maybe electrical braking by circuitry
control is a relevant question
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: 640hp Mini (BMW) converted by PML and partners .. UK
> Just a related question. why are the "mechanical" brakes considered an
> absolute necessity ? ( by mechanical, i think most people mean normal
> hydraulically operated disc brakes )
>
> i mean, shorting the wires of async or brushless dc electric motor is
> pretty reliable way to force the emergency brakes on, only way to make
> the wheels turn again would be melting the copper or motor falling
> apart.
>
> I'd say, if properly designed, it could be more reliable than the
> hydraulic brakes used on most cars, which do break down from time to
> time.
>
> Say, flooring the brake pedal would short the motors directly or over
> a resistor coil ?
>
> /kert
>
>
> On 3/14/07, david woolard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > In support of PML I have to say that their BLDC wheel
> > motors do seem to be quite sophisticated. They also do
> > sell their motors to individuals, unlike a few other
> > EV technology companies.
> >
> > The PML mini is certainly over-hyped but the wheels
> > were artificially spaced out during the car shows to
> > "emphasise" the wheel motors, again probably down to
> > the marketing dept. In normal use (although with no
> > mech. brakes, there is no normal use) they would be in
> > their usual inset position.
> >
> > Cheers
> > DaveW
> >
> >
> >
> > ___________________________________________________________
> > The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address
from your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date: 3/12/2007
7:19 PM
>
>
___________________________________________________________
The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from
your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mike,
It is best to down load each State income tax credit forms, which should
list the any type of credits for alternative type of energy.
For example if you down load http://mt.gov/revenue and click the tax Form
AFCR for Alternative Fuel Credit, Form AEPC for Alternative Energy
Production Credit, Form ENRG-B for Research Activities Credit that I have
use for credit on my EV Research Systems.
In the above WEB address, you can change the state identifier for many other
states.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 5:50 AM
Subject: State by State EV Incentives and Regulations?
> Has anyone ever put together a state by state listing of the
> incentives and regulations that apply to electric vehicles? I was
> hoping to find a comprehensive list I could forward to my state
> legislators to try and get Missouri out of the dark ages. (No
> incentives, no support, just an additional tax.) I guess such a list
> might also be something that should be posted on the web as well.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
> In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
> position. (Horace)
>
>
--- End Message ---
