EV Digest 6560
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: wall to road efficiency
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Single RPM Sensor for Dual Motors
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Lee Hart Battery balancer mail thread
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) ZAP claims to ship fast charger
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: ZAP claims to ship fast charger
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Xenon Headlamp and LED Tail Lamp Conversions
by "Martin Winlow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: BLDC Motor Availavility Was: Dual Controller/motors
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) flybo EV
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Xenon Headlamp and LED Tail Lamp Conversions
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: shunt motor controller?
by "Paschke, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Power boost concepts
by dale henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: ZAP claims to ship fast charger
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: ZAP claims to ship fast charger
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: I have been running experiments with high cap NiMH in parallel
with AGM Lead Acid
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: distributed charging and equalizing
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: flybo EV
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: I have been running experiments with high cap NiMH in parallel with
AGM Lead Acid
by "Paschke, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: I have been running experiments with high cap NiMH in parallel with
AGM Lead Acid
by "Paschke, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Tango lane splitting
by "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Altairnano Ultimatum
by "Jessie Lubke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) appropriate controller match
by Iron Mountain Films <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Xenon Headlamp and LED Tail Lamp Conversions (long, sorry)
by "Alan Brinkman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 3/15/07, Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
How many people here have had a technician "solve" a Check Engine light
problem by replacing a $400 computer?
It's just as bad for EVs. Try a £5000 quote to swap the controller,
when in fact the problem was rubbish in the coolant blocking the pump.
Because people (and automotive technicians) know even less about EVs
than they do about modern ICE vehicles, and because the manufacturers
usually have a monopoly on repair and servicing, this is what you get.
(That one worked out OK for me as I bought the vehicle cheaply with
the known fault and body damage).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What I did to install a speed sensor on my Warp 9 or GE 11, was use four 1/4
diameter magnets drill in flush into a shaft coupler that went onto the
pilot shaft. A magnetic pick up sensor that Otmar sent me (different then
the type that is used on a Advance motor, was mounted on a aluminum bar that
was bent and fasten to the front face of the motor.
The coupler allow me to attach a double taper lock pulley that is belted to
a electric clutch I made out of a large older type of A/C pump that has a
long pump shaft. I turn this pump shaft so the diameter is constant though
out its length and mounted on two face bearings that held a multi-groove
pulley.
This multi-groove can turn four or five accessories units when the electric
clutch is engaged either by automatic or manual control when I let up on my
accelerator pedal, which then applies MECHANINCAL REGEN to the accessories,
such as vacuum pump, power steering, A/C pump, water pump for heating,
DC-DC-AC rotating converter-inverter which provides 13.5-16 VDC and 110 VDC
to 120 VAC for three 120 VAC heating systems and 120 VAC pumps and controls.
When I press the accelerator pedal, than the mechanical belted unit shuts
down and three 2.9 hp motors than drive all these units when the main motor
is on line.
My Zilla does not have REGEN yet, so I have to use this MECH REGEN on my
long icy snow pack hills.
About 50 percent of the time, the accessory electric motors are not used and
no power is used to drive these units from either the main motor or the
battery pack.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:26 PM
Subject: RE: Single RPM Sensor for Dual Motors
>
> --- Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Since
> > all the WarP9's now come with the CE shaft I'll have
> > to implement the little
> > spacer plate like I did on the Mitsu. Was really
> > simple actually. Table sawed a piece of 1/4"
> > aluminum plate, put some 3.5"
> > pieces of cold rollled tubing in and some 3" bolts.
> > The trick is getting the sensor mounting holes
> > perfectly centered on the hole
> > for the shaft. Now I could, if I was so inclined,
> > mount a pulley onthe CE shaft and still run
> > accessories off the dual 9's. What
> > accessories I'd need I do not know.
>
> Hey Mike
>
> If you don't need the tailshaft just wack it off drill
> and tap it and put on the one Otmar sells. He's got a
> how to at his site to boot. You do have to open the
> CE plate hole also. It's a little bit of work but
> it's a nice install with a clean look and maintains a
> shorter profile for anyone having a clearance issue.
> I also like the fact that if machined properly it
> snaps in real tight keeping moisture and crap from
> entering the bearing area.
> Just my take on it.
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Eectric
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> The fish are biting.
> Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
> http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You could also consider a Dallas 1-wire system.
Bill Dennis
In a message dated 3/14/2007 1:11:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The design as it stands doesn't have enough temperature probe ports for
NiMh. I think that we need one probe per battery. It is probably
possible to add a multiplexer for multiple temperature probes and let
the stamp select them at the same time it is selecting the battery it is
going to measure voltage on.
Paul
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/070315/20070315005590.html?.v=1
just the interesting bits :
ZAP says the charger on the XEBRA can be configured for charging with
either a 110 or 220-volt outlet like the ones used with a household
washer and dryer. The new charger is able to provide up to 100 amps or
10,000 watts of electricity into the vehicle.
It connects to a 240-volt, 60 amp circuit or 208-volt, 3-phase, 50 amp
circuit. The fast charger is similar to ones used at Southwest
Airlines, America West Airlines, the Toronto Pearson International
Airport, and Arizona Public Service for recharging their fleets.
The new charger can be ordered through ZAP for about $9,000
Say, huh ? Real or just press release ?
-kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3/16/07, Kaido Kert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
ZAP says the charger on the XEBRA can be configured for charging with
either a 110 or 220-volt outlet like the ones used with a household
washer and dryer. The new charger is able to provide up to 100 amps or
10,000 watts of electricity into the vehicle.
Say, huh ? Real or just press release ?
It's a relatively low-voltage vehicle, right? 80 or 96V, something like that?
There is an abundance of high power chargers available off the shelf
for industrial applications (i.e. forklifts) in that case.
e.g. http://www.micropower.se/?me_group=eng&gclid=CJqiucbQ-YoCFQ_UlAod2jevlQ
I doubt Zap will have done anything clever, it could well be a low
tech, chinese made industrial charger with a huge markup.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I was wondering if any EV'ers out there have had any experiences with
converting their halogen headlamps to Xenon and replacing incandescent
tail/stop light bulbs with LED ones?
I appreciate the cost is significant - £100 for a bi-Xenon (ie includes main
and dipped beam facility) kit instead of a few pounds for a halogen bulb and
£4 or so for an LED 'bulb' as opposed to about 50p for an incandescent one.
However, the Xenon lamps only use about half the power that a halogen one
uses (35W Vs 65W), the light is much easier to see in, they are considerably
more powerful and last about 10 times as long (apparently). Much the same
can be said for the LED tail lights.
Any thoughts?
MW
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And if so how much are they? I have been searching for a source for that
power
range of BLDC motor.
We got ours (that was for a hybrid electric project that I worked on in
1994-1995) from Unique Mobility (UQM). They might still sell to individuals.
Those sorts of motors are quite expensive, though - more than an ACIM in the
same power range. Maybe $10,000 or so for a motor + controller? The SR218
looks nice.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anybody know about this?
on ebay #170091508575
Looks to be a modded Smart car from the pix.
I hadn't noticed any coverage in the usual blogs.
Description is obviously incomplete.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
don't do it for energy savings, the difference isn't worth it. Say you write
for an hour, the Xenon bulbs you mention will only save you 30Wh!
If you were doing 60, and you needed 250Wh/mile, in that hour you'd have gone
60 miles, and spent 15000Wh. So, saving 30Wh won't be noticeble at all. :)
- Tony
----- Original Message ----
From: Martin Winlow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 9:02:04 AM
Subject: Xenon Headlamp and LED Tail Lamp Conversions
Hi,
I was wondering if any EV'ers out there have had any experiences with
converting their halogen headlamps to Xenon and replacing incandescent
tail/stop light bulbs with LED ones?
I appreciate the cost is significant - £100 for a bi-Xenon (ie includes main
and dipped beam facility) kit instead of a few pounds for a halogen bulb and
£4 or so for an LED 'bulb' as opposed to about 50p for an incandescent one.
However, the Xenon lamps only use about half the power that a halogen one
uses (35W Vs 65W), the light is much easier to see in, they are considerably
more powerful and last about 10 times as long (apparently). Much the same
can be said for the LED tail lights.
Any thoughts?
MW
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Many people on this list shift without a clutch. That should not be a
problem.
With a shunt motor, you can easily control your speed inexpensively.
> Stephen Paschke
> AR Daemon, DAR, ERISA, Plan Review, and IPI/ICTMS support,
>TIAA-CREF Denver
> Senior Consultant
> Keane, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of mike golub
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:00 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: shunt motor controller?
maybe I meant clutchless, not direct drive.
Would clutchless work with the shunt motor?
--- "Paschke, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was going to use a g-32 for my project vw
> cabriolet until I figured
> the range I needed and some of my commuting is on a
> highway. I changed
> my plans just before I started working on my
> project. Now I am looking
> at 144V pack with a Netgain Impulse9. I am
> undecided on the controller
> at the moment. So I will soon be selling my J&H
> g-32.
>
> Direct drive will not work due to the small RPM
> range of the g-29. The
> G-32 is about 3000 RPM at 30v with an idle
> somewhere around 700RPM if I
> remember right. I have the specs at home.
>
> Using a PWM controller and disconnecting the shunt
> would result in an
> inefficient series motor. A 6.7" prestolite or an
> ADC 6.7 would be more
> efficient.
> I was planning to do the following for a controller:
> All you need is a rheostat that can handle about 10
> amps to control the
> speed. Perhaps a parallel/series split battery pack
> to run at 36v/72v.
> Sort of Lo/Hi speed range type of thing. Have it in
> 36v (parallel)mode
> for in town driving and for charging (less expensive
> chargers). Switch
> to 72v (series mode) for 45+ mph.
>
> > Stephen Paschke
> > AR Daemon, DAR, ERISA, Plan Review, and IPI/ICTMS
> support,
> >TIAA-CREF Denver
> > Senior Consultant
> > Keane, Inc.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of mike golub
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 12:28 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: shunt motor controller?
>
> Hello
>
> I'm working on my metro conversion project.
> I got this g29 aircraft generator which is a shunt
> motor.
>
> I am in the process of building my own adapter plate
> and shaft coupler.
>
> I was thinking about direct drive, and shifting
> without the clutch.
>
> One big question is can I use one of those curtis
> series controllers with this shunt motor? If not are
> there any shunt motor controllers out there?
>
> Another question. I took the nut of the rear of the
> G29, and this long metal shaft came out, and now I
> have a small 16 teeth spline sticking out. Is that
> what people have been mounting the flywheel on?
> It seems I could make a new shaft that would have a
> better connecting piece?
>
> Again thanks in advance!
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
> ____________
> 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
> with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
>
>
>
>
**************************************************************
> This message, including any attachments, contains
> confidential information intended for a specific
> individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If
> you are not the intended recipient, please contact
> sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy all
> copies. You are hereby notified that any
> disclosure, copying, or distribution of this
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>
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>
________________________________________________________________________
____________
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http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The follow is an attempt to clearly some concepts floating around in my head
and if they work it might help the EV community. Hence those many many of you,
who have more knowledge of these things than I, please [nicely] correct my
thoughts when they wander.
Can I hook up a separate power source directly to the motor? If I already
have a battery pack going to a controller and then the controller going to the
motor can I have separate battery pack/controller hooked up to the motor as
well? I assume the answer is yes if the voltage is the same and the total amps
are in an acceptable level for the motor. One concern is energy back flow. If
both controllers are producing power to the motor at the same time could they
send some or all of those amps into the other controller instead? If so can
that be easily prevented? Furthermore, what about engine breaking and regen?
Can the motor [when breaking] allow one controller [provided it is a regen
controller] to provide energy back to the batteries while the other controller
does nothing?
Why consider this? The secondary controller can be used when the vehicle
needs a little more power to accelerate from a stop light or merge in traffic,
etc
which allows the primary batteries to avoid some amp draw spikes which
will increase run time and battery life. Further, the secondary can be
composed of different technologies than the primary pack. There has been some
interest on this list about finding ways to splice in other battery
technologies [NiCad, lithium, etc..] and I would like to use ultracapacitors
charged by solar. Since a secondary power source could be charged when not in
use.
If this basic idea can be done, my follow up questions will surround the best
way to implement the concept primary how to compute the power [amps per time]
from the capacitors.
Albuquerque, NM
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
---------------------------------
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's about 3 times the cost of a PFC50.
Yea it could be a real product.
About a Buck a watt. That's the going rate for list price Switcher power
supplies.
Again the Spec you posted... is Bull shit.
Not picking on you, I expect you are publishing what you read.
110 volts at 10Kw is 90 a mps NO where's you can get that expect off the
main buss bars in your house panel.
10Kw of 208.. is 48 amps, 208 is not in a house in the Us of A. But is
common 3 phase power.
10Kw of 240 .....now we are talking normal stuff. 41 amp will do it. A house
hold RANGE outlet will do it. that's a 50 amp U-14-50.
That is the exact plug that I ship PFC40s and PFC50s with.
I really with the Propaganda writers would get it right. I field calls
asking for 10Kw from 110 outlets.. see it says here I can do it!!
Then I get the fun of educating them.....and raining on their parade.
Madman
Looks like I am doing Wayland Juice Bar duties Saturday night at Portland.
Now THAT's a power tap. 400 amps of 240 three phase, and watch out for the
wild Leg!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:49 AM
Subject: ZAP claims to ship fast charger
> http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/070315/20070315005590.html?.v=1
> just the interesting bits :
>
> ZAP says the charger on the XEBRA can be configured for charging with
> either a 110 or 220-volt outlet like the ones used with a household
> washer and dryer. The new charger is able to provide up to 100 amps or
> 10,000 watts of electricity into the vehicle.
>
> It connects to a 240-volt, 60 amp circuit or 208-volt, 3-phase, 50 amp
> circuit. The fast charger is similar to ones used at Southwest
> Airlines, America West Airlines, the Toronto Pearson International
> Airport, and Arizona Public Service for recharging their fleets.
>
> The new charger can be ordered through ZAP for about $9,000
>
> Say, huh ? Real or just press release ?
>
> -kert
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Yea it could be a real product.
I'm quite certain it is a real product. It sounds exactly like the eTec
LSV-100 (100A, 10kW NEV/GSV/etc. opportunity charger):
<http://www.etecevs.com/nev/index_frame_lsv-100.htm>
> Again the Spec you posted... is Bull shit.
> Not picking on you, I expect you are publishing what you read.
People aren't reading carefully enough. It appears that two different
chargers are being discussed here: the first line says that the charger
"on" the vehicle can be configured for either 110V or 220V outlet; later
the "new" charger is discussed that can deliver 100A/10kW into the
vehicle, and it is specifically stated that *this* charger connects to
either 240V 60A or 208V 50A 3-phase - nowhere does it claim that the new
100A/10kW charger accepts 110V.
> 10Kw of 240 .....now we are talking normal stuff. 41 amp will
> do it. A house hold RANGE outlet will do it. that's a 50 amp
> U-14-50.
Not legally it won't. 10kW into the batteries means 11.1kW from the
240V line at 90% efficiency, and that's just over 46A. NEC allows only
drawing 80% of the circuit rating, or 40A on a 50A circuit. The LSV-100
spec sheet indicates 48A max input @ 240V and 40A max @ 208V 3ph, which
is why it calls for a 60A breaker on 240V and 50A on 208V (coinciding
nicely with ZAP's new charger spec ;^).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Powers wrote:
> A couple of friends and I are working on a dual chemistry battery
> pack for our EV's. It consists of a string of AGM lead acid
> (8 x 12 in my case, 12 x 12 in my friend's case) with parallel
> strings of D or F cell NIMH.
Jeff Major wrote:
We experimented with this concept... NiCad D cells with AGMs.
Ran discharge tests on various combos. Found 21 cells with two 12V
AGMs worked best. Combo battery was discharged at 300 amps. NiCad
contribution was about 25 amps for first half of test and then rose
steadily to 60 amps at end of test. Always charged separately.
It looked like there was merit to this concept, but implementation
was too complex, so we dropped it. Good luck.
I think a hybrid battery pack (composed of 2 different types of
batteries) makes sense when there are substantial differences in the
characteristics of the two systems. For example, one with great energy
capacity (lots of amphours, but only if discharged slowly), and the
other with great power density (high peak power, but low amphour capacity).
The particular combinations mentioned here (AGMs and small nicads or
nimh) don't seem to meet this criteria. The nicads that Jeff Majors
mentioned only provided 25 out of 300 amps -- 25 amps is low, and quite
a comfortable discharge rate for even small lead-acids.
Such a setup might work better with something like BB600 flooded nicads
in parallel with flooded lead acids. Pulse loading this pack might
produce results more like this:
total current -300a -0a -300a -0a
lead-acid -50a -25a -50a -25a
nicads -250a +25a -250a +25a
In other words, the nicad provide the peak current, and get *charged*
during low current times. The lead-acids have a more steady load
current, and so don't lose so much capacity to Peukert.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Al wrote:
The Batmods would be the easiest and best way to go, but 20 times
> about $170 equals $3400!
Only the "master" module needs to be a batmod. The rest can be booster
"slave" modules. Boosters are often available on the surplus market for
much lower prices.
You can get active PFC PC supplies for $30 to $40.
Yes; but you get what you pay for. Do some real testing for yourself!
Then a bit of surgery and a PIC can put each "charger" on a network
(can, usb, etc.)
It would be a good learning project to test a PC power supply to see
what it can actually do (current, voltage, and for how long), and what
happens if a battery tries to draw too much current or has other issues.
Programming a micro as a battery charger is also an interesting project.
It's certainly possible, but not as easy as you might think. What
charging algorithm? How will you measure battery voltage and current? If
the computer crashes, will it destroy the battery?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks to be a modded Smart car from the pix.
I hadn't noticed any coverage in the usual blogs.
Interior looks very much like my wife's Smart. But it goes 135 km/hour with
the turbo diesel and only about 40hp, and 0-60mph is somewhere around 16 or
18 seconds.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would think that you would want the sub-pack voltages to be close to
the same at any given point.
E.G. the Lead pack would sag to value X volts at y amps. The nicad or
whatever pack would sag to approximately X volts at z amps. With y+z =
total amps being drawn at any given point in time.
This would probably be very difficult.
> Stephen Paschke
> AR Daemon, DAR, ERISA, Plan Review, and IPI/ICTMS support,
>TIAA-CREF Denver
> Senior Consultant
> Keane, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:57 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: I have been running experiments with high cap NiMH in
parallel with AGM Lead Acid
Steve Powers wrote:
> A couple of friends and I are working on a dual chemistry battery
> pack for our EV's. It consists of a string of AGM lead acid
> (8 x 12 in my case, 12 x 12 in my friend's case) with parallel
> strings of D or F cell NIMH.
Jeff Major wrote:
> We experimented with this concept... NiCad D cells with AGMs.
> Ran discharge tests on various combos. Found 21 cells with two 12V
> AGMs worked best. Combo battery was discharged at 300 amps. NiCad
> contribution was about 25 amps for first half of test and then rose
> steadily to 60 amps at end of test. Always charged separately.
>
> It looked like there was merit to this concept, but implementation
> was too complex, so we dropped it. Good luck.
I think a hybrid battery pack (composed of 2 different types of
batteries) makes sense when there are substantial differences in the
characteristics of the two systems. For example, one with great energy
capacity (lots of amphours, but only if discharged slowly), and the
other with great power density (high peak power, but low amphour
capacity).
The particular combinations mentioned here (AGMs and small nicads or
nimh) don't seem to meet this criteria. The nicads that Jeff Majors
mentioned only provided 25 out of 300 amps -- 25 amps is low, and quite
a comfortable discharge rate for even small lead-acids.
Such a setup might work better with something like BB600 flooded nicads
in parallel with flooded lead acids. Pulse loading this pack might
produce results more like this:
total current -300a -0a -300a -0a
lead-acid -50a -25a -50a -25a
nicads -250a +25a -250a +25a
In other words, the nicad provide the peak current, and get *charged*
during low current times. The lead-acids have a more steady load
current, and so don't lose so much capacity to Peukert.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
**************************************************************
This message, including any attachments, contains confidential information
intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If
you are not the intended recipient, please contact sender immediately by reply
e-mail and destroy all copies. You are hereby notified that any disclosure,
copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any action based on
it, is strictly prohibited.
TIAA-CREF
**************************************************************
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oops... I was just thinking out loud and just realized it is the
voltage sag that determines the proportion of amperage drawn from each
sub-pack.
So, nevermind. :)
> Stephen Paschke
> AR Daemon, DAR, ERISA, Plan Review, and IPI/ICTMS support,
>TIAA-CREF Denver
> Senior Consultant
> Keane, Inc.
> Office 303-607-2993
> Cell 303-204-9280
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paschke, Stephen
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 12:47 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: I have been running experiments with high cap NiMH in
parallel with AGM Lead Acid
I would think that you would want the sub-pack voltages to be close to
the same at any given point.
E.G. the Lead pack would sag to value X volts at y amps. The nicad or
whatever pack would sag to approximately X volts at z amps. With y+z =
total amps being drawn at any given point in time.
This would probably be very difficult.
> Stephen Paschke
> AR Daemon, DAR, ERISA, Plan Review, and IPI/ICTMS support,
>TIAA-CREF Denver
> Senior Consultant
> Keane, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:57 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: I have been running experiments with high cap NiMH in
parallel with AGM Lead Acid
Steve Powers wrote:
> A couple of friends and I are working on a dual chemistry battery
> pack for our EV's. It consists of a string of AGM lead acid
> (8 x 12 in my case, 12 x 12 in my friend's case) with parallel
> strings of D or F cell NIMH.
Jeff Major wrote:
> We experimented with this concept... NiCad D cells with AGMs.
> Ran discharge tests on various combos. Found 21 cells with two 12V
> AGMs worked best. Combo battery was discharged at 300 amps. NiCad
> contribution was about 25 amps for first half of test and then rose
> steadily to 60 amps at end of test. Always charged separately.
>
> It looked like there was merit to this concept, but implementation
> was too complex, so we dropped it. Good luck.
I think a hybrid battery pack (composed of 2 different types of
batteries) makes sense when there are substantial differences in the
characteristics of the two systems. For example, one with great energy
capacity (lots of amphours, but only if discharged slowly), and the
other with great power density (high peak power, but low amphour
capacity).
The particular combinations mentioned here (AGMs and small nicads or
nimh) don't seem to meet this criteria. The nicads that Jeff Majors
mentioned only provided 25 out of 300 amps -- 25 amps is low, and quite
a comfortable discharge rate for even small lead-acids.
Such a setup might work better with something like BB600 flooded nicads
in parallel with flooded lead acids. Pulse loading this pack might
produce results more like this:
total current -300a -0a -300a -0a
lead-acid -50a -25a -50a -25a
nicads -250a +25a -250a +25a
In other words, the nicad provide the peak current, and get *charged*
during low current times. The lead-acids have a more steady load
current, and so don't lose so much capacity to Peukert.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Wow, I came to this thread late, my apologies, there's so much to
respond to. I have a Tango on order, and I borrowed Rick's Tango
while he was visiting California, so I have a bit to say on the
subject...
On 3/2/07, Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Could the Tango be an ICE?
Doubtful. You'd have to add extra ballast, which only makes the gas
engine more inefficient.
Would the Tango even work with advanced batteries?
Yes, in fact mine will be NiMH-powered. Due to the cost-per-pound of
Li-Ion, the pack is lighter than either the NiMH packs or the
lead-acid packs; they end up having to *add* extra lead to the Li-Ion
pack!!
The Tango is one of the best examples I've seen of taking the biggest
liability of PbA batteries and turning it into an advantage.
Yup!
On 2/28/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
If the lines were 36" apart, the Tango would indeed fit between them.
Technically, not quite: the Tango is 39" wide.
Rick Woodbury has done lane sharing with his Tangos; indeed, I believe
he had a video of it somewhere. He was driving side-by-side with a
motorcycle.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6954321544637851263
On 2/27/07, GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I object to lane splitting because
1. It puts me at risk of an accident or it puts my car at risk of being
damaged and the motorcyclist may drive on or blame me. Someone else
doesnot have the right to you me in such danger or circumstance anymore
than I have the right to make you stand on the edge of a buildings
roof.
2. It is a result of someone who feels they can jump the line.
Impatience, rudeness, superiority, uncivilized behavior, flauting the
law, being an $#%hole call it what you will but lane splitting is all
about the motorcyclists putting his desires ahead of others.
GW, I used to feel the same way. It really pissed me off when
motorcycles would ride between cars, and I used to intentionally drive
far to the left (or right) of my lane in order to block them.
This, by the way, is called "passive-aggressive" driving, and it's
dangerous, wrong, and might get you a ticket.
What finally stopped me is I was complaining about this to a friend
and he pointed out that what the motorcycles were doing is perfectly
legal, and moreover, safer than sitting in a lane.
It turns out that in California (the laws in many other states are
similar), it is legal for motorcycles to go in between cars, between
lanes, IF their speed is no more than 25mph. (I just tried to find
the specific CVC section that deals with this, and could not find it,
sigh. All I could find was the part that says lane-splitting is
specifically NOT legal for 3-wheeled vehicles.) I believe that in
Washington State, it is specifically legal both for motorcycles and
extremely narrow vehicles, probably because the only maker of
extremely narrow 4-wheeled vehicles is based in Washington State. :-)
Regarding safety, it comes to this: the vast majority of accidents are
caused by cars that are not aware of the motorcycle they hit. They
simply don't see them. Now, occasionally cars will rear-end each
other, for various reasons. But sometimes that happens and there's a
motorcycle in between the cars - a motorcycle that the cars behind
doesn't see. When that happens, it is very bad for the motorcyclist.
And the way to make that particular type of accident happen more often
is to force the motorcycles to sit behind cars in a stop-and-go
situation. By contrast, a motorcycle who is lane-splitting between
slow-moving cars is simply not a danger to himself or others, because
in that kind of a slow-moving situation, it's hard for a car to cause
a problem even if they wanted to - the car would have to make a sudden
attempt to change lanes into an adjacent lane, but the other lanes are
almost always packed.
The fact is, when you're in a jammed freeway going 0-10 mph, you're
not any danger to the motorcycle going 25mph between lanes, nor is the
motorcycle a danger to you. Get over it. I did. Be courteous to the
bikers.
... Okay, now back on topic: the Tango.
When Rick was in Silicon Valley for EAASV's annual electric car rally,
he was giving people rides in the Tango, and lane-splitting was key.
The Tango is the fastest car around town because the Tango can drive
between cars and get right to the front of the line for any stop
light. The Wrightspeed roadster, fastest street-legal EV ever made,
was there, and the Tango lapped it because of this advantage.
So when Rick offered to let me drive the car for a few days while he
went on business to L.A., I lept at the chance. Here's what I found:
1) The opportunities for lane-splitting don't come up that often. I
was really surprised about this - now that I had a chance to try it
out, it just didn't come up. I kept getting on the freeway, hoping
for it to be slow, but then, the traffic is only slow during rush
hour, and as an EV you can ride in the diamond lane during rush hour,
so it just doesn't come up that much. Ditto around town: sure, there
were many slow roads, but those were generally two-lane roads, not
four or six.
2) When you do lane-split, you feel *incredibly* conspicuous. Mind
you, driving a Tango already makes you incredibly conspicuous. I had
my picture taken about every 2 days, and that's just the people who
would drive up next to me on the highway and be obvious about it. But
for lane-splitting, I felt wrong and weird and uneasy.
3) The Tango is wider than most motorcycles. And often wide enough
that you can't lane-split anyway. The big advantage to my commute is
a part of eastbound highway 84 just before 101, where the two lanes
tend to be slow, jammed up behind a traffic light, and it's a perfect
chance to lane-split except that, at about one out of 20 cars, the
distance is too narrow. So it doesn't really save that much.
4) But for right turns, it's awesome. The big advantage was, when
taking a right turn, being able to pass traffic on the right in order
to make the turn at a red light, rather than wait for the people in
the right lane who were going straight. I can sometimes do this in a
big car, but with the Tango it was possible every time.
On 3/3/07, James Allgood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The Tango can park on a 20% grade without tipping over. I am not sure how
may Gs that equals but tipping would be a problem without the batteries.
55% grade, actually. Anything more than 45% means more than 1G. The
important thing is that the Tango passes the slip-first test: if you
take a corner at too high a speed, do your tires slip first, or does
your car flip first? In the Tango, the tires slip first.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I assume you haven't received the test pack?
On 3/1/07, Sam Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thanks for all of your input regarding Altairnano. It has prompted me
to tell them to "shit or get off the pot", although I am doing so in a
way that will not strain relations in the event that their developments
are valuable. Gawd, I'm starting to feel like a politician.
The following is text directly pasted from an email I sent to Al Gotcher
today:
_______________
"Congratulations to you and Altairnano on the breakthrough you have made
in the manufacturing process of your batteries. I spoke with Veselin
Manev yesterday and he informed me of the good news. I also resent him
the requested test parameters contained in the message below.
I have offered Altairnano a no-cost opportunity to prove the validity of
the technology you are developing, and that offer was accepted.
Following through with this test supports your responsibilities to
Altairnano's agenda, and there is no conflict of interest with your
exclusivity agreements with Pheonix in conducting this test. The
energy and transportation revolution opportunity we are faced with
cannot afford to be clouded with myths, and I am dead serious about
separating myth from fact.
I have to inform you that there are credible entities I answer to,
including investors in Altairnano. The ethical thing for me to do is
give you fair warning that if I haven't received a test pack by March
16, 2007, they are essentially going to "cry B.S.", which some are
already doing. My intention is to support your development, not
antagonize it. If Altairnano stands behind their product, Facilitating
this test will be an asset to the company."
________________
The ball's in their court, and the jury is still out, for a little
while. If they drop the ball, we can spread the truth. If they follow
through and the tests go well, we can spread the truth. Until then,
let's not speculate what the truth is.
Tastes like chocolate today.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have an electric recumbent bike that I am rebuilding. The motor is a 24v
approximately 800 watts. I can go with a chinese scooter controller rated at
40 amps or a Curtis 24v 90 amp. I believe it is a mobility controller.
The bike's motor drive actually drives a 5 speed hub. Will the 90 amp
controller overdive the motor or does the motor take what it needs? The curtis
is of higher quality obviously. What do I do?
thanks,
Mike Malmberg
Producer/cinematographer
92 honda civic EV 136v (8v) w/zilla
hub motor powered bicycle 36v
custom-made human-electric hybrid recumbent 24v
---------------------------------
Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
always stay connected to friends.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Martin,
I am in the process of changing the marker lights on my 1973 30 foot travel
trailer to LED commercial truck style marker lights. Bought at a commercial
truck brake supply house, the lights were about $9 each. The existing wiring
and connections were corroded, and several items were mis-wired over the years,
making a regular bulb impossible to light up. With the LED lights, so little
current is used that the first light was bright from the start, in spite of the
corrosion etc. As I worked myself around the trailer, it was easy to strip
back the existing wire to clean copper, trouble shoot for the correct wiring,
install the light and move on. I did 1/3 of the trailer each six months, as
the trailer was moved or used, and this weekend will do the last leg. Thirteen
lights times $9 is expensive. Next I will change out the rear brake lights and
turn signals for LED units, expensive again, maybe $35 X 2, but again, a
marginal connection will give bright lights, and save th!
e frustration of a trailer with one bulb not working.
A vehicle where you change out the bulbs for LED bulbs needs the flasher looked
at. Some of the flashers need a load to work properly.
Clear LED lights are very expensive currently. I wanted to add some for
lighting for the trailer to make the battery last longer when camping. I was
quoted over $100 for a large round back up style LED lamp like the
diesel trucks use. I will use fluorescent for the trailer interior.
To make this EV List appropriate, my daughter has a Razor E200 stand up
electric scooter that I am chief mechanic for. She rides down our street a lot
a night, and it was not making me happy. I installed one LED marker light on
the front handle-bars, and one on the rear fender, wired them in series for
24v, the battery is 24v, and wired them to the on switch. Day or night, when
she rides the Razor, the marker lights are on. They are very visible at night.
After about two years of use, I have replaced the throttle handle once, the
belt twice, and the motor twice. It now has a larger motor, fit by removing
some metal from the frame, and moving the kick stand. Riding through moisture,
like crossing a wet curb, is hard on the motors, and over-speeding down hill is
an instant death of a motor. She is careful now, and the last motor is going
to last a long time.
Alan Brinkman
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tony Hwang
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 9:29 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Xenon Headlamp and LED Tail Lamp Conversions
don't do it for energy savings, the difference isn't worth it. Say you write
for an hour, the Xenon bulbs you mention will only save you 30Wh!
If you were doing 60, and you needed 250Wh/mile, in that hour you'd have gone
60 miles, and spent 15000Wh. So, saving 30Wh won't be noticeble at all. :)
- Tony
----- Original Message ----
From: Martin Winlow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 9:02:04 AM
Subject: Xenon Headlamp and LED Tail Lamp Conversions
Hi,
I was wondering if any EV'ers out there have had any experiences with
converting their halogen headlamps to Xenon and replacing incandescent
tail/stop light bulbs with LED ones?
I appreciate the cost is significant - £100 for a bi-Xenon (ie includes main
and dipped beam facility) kit instead of a few pounds for a halogen bulb and
£4 or so for an LED 'bulb' as opposed to about 50p for an incandescent one.
However, the Xenon lamps only use about half the power that a halogen one
uses (35W Vs 65W), the light is much easier to see in, they are considerably
more powerful and last about 10 times as long (apparently). Much the same
can be said for the LED tail lights.
Any thoughts?
MW
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