EV Digest 6672
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: how businesses work
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Need for Speed (was RE: Silly Tweety!)
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: 1980 Commuta Car brakes
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) ReVolt, Chelsea and Chris and the Power of DC
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Need for Speed (was RE: Silly Tweety!)
by Rich Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Buying new batteries, maybe more
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: Price point needed
by "Richard Krog" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 1980 Commuta Car brakes
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: An Electravan Shame story. Happy ending?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Rolls-Surrette
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Buying new batteries, maybe more
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Excellent GM Volt video
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Need for Speed (was RE: Silly Tweety!) .. ev is better than i.c.e.
vehicles !
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Rolls-Surrette
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Warp9 max motor voltage?
by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: NEMA 4 boxes for contactors
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Price point needed
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) adding new battery to old(er) pack
by "Deanne Mott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Rolls-Surrette
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: "largish" brushless motors available
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: "largish" brushless motors available
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: NdFeB magnets in motors?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: "largish" brushless motors available
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Rolls-Surrette
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Warp9 max motor voltage?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: NEMA 4 boxes for contactors
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Warp9 max motor voltage?
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) DC Systems 1200 Overheating
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Think Neighbor OEM Battery
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: Price point needed
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<snipped>
> The auto is too expensive and important for us to leave in the hands
> of folks that are only interested in profit. Making money is great,
> but not at the expense of the good of all. Ultimately, the big
> companies are going to to get their behinds handed to them by the BEV
> guys if they don't get with the program. I don't think very many
> people were fooled by the Volt.
quite correct .. sadly i don't find any model anywhere of this
kind of 'not leaving in the hands of folks' thingy .. this is where
we have a systemic failure .. the system didn't work, doesn't work,
will not work .. UNLESS .....
the rise of Linus torvald's alternate system to work on computers
is the result of such a need .. and lots of people pitched in .. though
he didn't want to give up his hold easily either ! today linux does
all that other systems do .. and many more things that other systems
just cannot do
similar is the status of ev's ! they perform much better than i.c.e.
vehicles .. and do things which those can't .. like returning power
to the grid .. with lots of tinkerers like this group's members doing
great things
the problem of right things NOT happening because of the
way businesses work is still not solved .. so i see open source
designing of ev's happening rather soon !
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ken, Great post and I totally agree!You should go to the Car and Driver
forums and speak up under the response to the article: "Batteries Included"
http://forums.caranddriver.com/auto/board/message?board.id=10&thread.id=3920
You will know what I mean when you read the first post. I will be posting
later today under the user name Ampsucker.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 6:48 AM
Subject: Re: Need for Speed (was RE: Silly Tweety!)
One the great things about Tweety are that it draws attention because it
looks so silly. Then it’s the contrast between its looks and performance
that makes such an impression on people. So, it turns out that its silly
looks are a real benefit in helping EV’s gets noticed.
The other thing we have learned is that you have to concentrate on visual
performance to promote EV's. Stay away from the environment thing. That is
a big turn off for most of the general public. After they are thoroughly
blown away by the performance, they usually will mention the environmental
benefit themselves. It's been our experience that when people witness the
performance, the significance of argued negative points of EVs becomes very
diluted.
I had someone ask if Tweety had a V6 engine. I said no, it has an 8 inch.
After a long bewildered look on their face, I finally said, “it’s electric”.
That completely blew them away.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 8:32 PM
Subject: Need for Speed (was RE: Silly Tweety!)
Fast EVs get noticed...It's one of our best selling concepts.
Sure is... we stand a better chance wooing the masses by matching or
beating ICE performance than we do by dumbing down ICEs...
Kudos to all that are pushing the limits in the direction of more
wide-spread acceptance!
Efficiency is important, but balancing performance against pure
efficiency is the way to woo the world...
Randii
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4:43 AM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tad Coles wrote:
I don't have an electric car yet, but I'm considering purchase of a 1980
Commuta Car that needs new batteries and has "leaky brake cylinders."
Alternatively I am considering an electric conversion vehicle. I typically
drive 25-30 miles daily.
There is a world of difference between a C-Car and a conventional
conversion. I drove a Citicar for about 7 years and owned a
Commutacar as well. The C-cars are really just glorified golf-carts
with extremely minimalist creature comforts. A converted anything
would be more of a car. No heater, non-adjustable seats, sliding
windows, rough ride, built in bump-steer, not really what most folks
are looking for.
I'm told it takes 8 golf cart batteries that cost ~$60 each (6 volt I
assume). Does that sound right? How much range/speed should I expect from
this vehicle with new batteries? At one site I heard range is 33-60 miles
and top speed is 50 mph, but the ranges and top speeds listed on
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/type/CCCC vary considerably.
Yes, eight 6 volt golf cart batteries, which should run between $60
and $80 each if I recall the current prices correctly. Top
speed? 40 with a tailwind on absolutely level ground. Range? 25-35
miles in good weather, 15-20 in cold weather.
Do these cars have a stock on board charger? If so, How many hours does it
take to fully charge the batteries with the stock charger?
The on-board charger should be able to fully recharge in about 8 hours.
My impression is that these cars are very unsafe and hazardous if involved
in a wreck. Thoughts?
Yes, no the safest thing on the road, but light years better than a
motorcycle (though not as maneuverable). It does have kind of a
roll-cage construction, and I have heard stories of them doing pretty
well, but by today's standards, they are pretty bad.
Any experience out there fixing leaky brake cylinders on Commuta Cars?
Parts are available, see http://www.evperformance.com/ The brakes
are really for non-road going industrial equipment. Stamped brake
drums and oddball design. On mine I knew when I stepped on the brake
the car would pull to one side. I never knew which side it would be
this time. As long as the castings aren't too pitted they can be
rebuilt. If they are pitted, stainless steel sleeves could be
installed by a number of specialty shops.
Will the car fit on a 4X8 trailer (I think it will)? Does anyone know how
much it weighs (I think ~1400 lb with batteries)?
Yes, it will fit and that is about right on the weight.
The vehicle is about 250 miles from where I live so I have not seen it. I've
never bid on a vehicle sight unseen, but considering that I live in Kansas
City and there is a dirth of ready to drive EV's available here I guess I'll
need to do so if I really want an EV. What else should I ask about before
making a sight-unseen offer?
Honestly, I drove a C-Car for several years in Kansas City, and it
really wasn't a good choice. They were really designed for Florida
with no hills to climb. The stock contactor controller just doesn't
work well with hills of any kind, especially stop lights on
hills. Several times when the light turned green and I pressed down
on the throttle, step 1 (18 Volts) was not enough to keep the car
from rolling backwards. Step 2 (24 Volts) would start it creeping or
sometimes just hold it in place. Step 3 (48 Volts) would vaporize
the brush leads and leave the car inoperative. I upgraded to a
Curtis controller and suddenly it became a much more practical and
reliable car. The brakes were always a problem. Even after I
upgraded from Citicar to Commutacar brakes. The suspension is quite
limited with only about 2 to 3 inches of travel. I actually snapped
the rear axle in a pot hole on Broadway.
Even the most mediocre conversion would be a far better choice. The
C-cars are really not viable transportation, at least not in KC. I
sold mine to a guy that uses it as a stage prop at Funkytown on 63rd
St. I guess I really should check with him and see how it is doing.
FWIW, I run a C-Car owners group at:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/C-Car
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
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--- Begin Message ---
Now that's what I call customer service! Can you call them back and ask for
a 4WD diesel PHEV truck? Hubmotors would be good. Like that hybrid Hummer
UQM made for the Army fourteen years ago.
I've been asking them for years, but they never get back to me...
Marv
Culver City, CA
> From: "David Hrivnak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:21:11 -0400
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Subject: RE: ReVolt, Chelsea and Chris and the Power of DC
>
> The site is back up after I called them. Over 448000 want it
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 2007-04-17 at 09:48 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:.
> The other thing we have learned is that you have to concentrate on visual
> performance to promote EV's. Stay away from the environment thing. That is
> a big turn off for most of the general public. After they are thoroughly
> blown away by the performance, they usually will mention the environmental
> benefit themselves.
Last Saturday I was invited to display my EV at a "Step It Up" climate
change rally. I was interviewed and appeared on the front page of the
next day's local paper. In hindsight my gut feeling is I probably
turned more people off of EVs than on to it. There are a lot of people
in this area that don't want anything to do with the dreaded treehugging
liberal. So I think yea, everybody likes performance and only some of
the people are concerned for the environment.
Rich
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Matt,
Out of curiosity, what is the price per battery you are quoted for the
Trojan's 125 or 145?
FYI, you can fit under your hood (if an S10), 8 T-125 batteries in addition
to the 9" motor and the controller (there is room for the charger, but I
didn't mount it there yet.
18 in the bed. (should be below the bed)
In the hood, It's a tight fit for looking at anything but still quite
surprising to the viewer who sees that many batteries under the hood. With
flooded, I think I should be worried about the acid hurting any of the
electric components. So far I have not done anything to prevent acid
damage.
I'm running 156 V on the DCP 600. Works well enough.
perhaps I have bad Trojan's, but I can't see how a DCP1200 or even a Zilla
would help my performance. My sag is pretty bad (142 Volts on a warm day at
250 amps) best performance. I've never pulled over ~300 amps with my
DCP600 ever (battery side)
My range is still at least 40 miles (though I haven't tried since last
fall). longest range I've done with plenty mileage left was over 50 miles.
Good luck, Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe,Jerry
Thanks for the reply. I'm glad I'm not the only one concerned with the
unbalanced battery load of the DC/DC converter. It also seems like best
practice calls for a single string of 6V batteries over two parallel strings
of 12V batteries. correct?
I also failed to mention the very low ground clearance in the center of the
truck where the battery tray's angle iron juts-out a mere 5 inches from the
ground. This isn't a suspension issue, but rather they mounted one end of
battery tray too low.
I'm going to decline the offer and see if it makes it to eBay.
Richard
On 4/17/07, jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Joe, Richard and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: < ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Price point needed
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 06:15:46 -0700
>Needs a few upgrades - probably worth about $7500, give or
>take.
Considering it's dead and once people price out it's
expensive battery pack, it should go for a lot less, about
$3-5k. Other comments below.
You could buy most everything it has you need for
under $5k or much less used. So much over that and you can
build your own better.
>
>Joseph H. Strubhar
>
>Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
>E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Richard Krog" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:05 PM
>Subject: Price point needed
>
>
>> Hi, new to the list.
>>
>> I have an opportunity to buy an electric truck that was
>> converted as a prototype over 10 years ago. It has been
>> sitting in a garage unused ever since. I am trying to
>>determine a fair market price. Here are the specs:
>> Motor: Advanced DC FB1-4001
>> Controller: Curtis 1231C (500A)
>> Batteries: 20 new 12V PbA Deka DC31DT (2 parallel strings
>> of 10)
Wrong batts as they are about 3x's as expensive as
golf cart types that will give better range for muchy less
money.
Body: 1994 Ford Ranger short cab, short bed (1,800
>> miles - spotless and looks like it came through a time
>> machine) DC/DC: Curtis 72v/12v (tapping only 6 batteries)
Not good!! Remove it and replace with another of the
whole pack voltage. This and the charger are probably why
this EV failed by unbalancing, overcharging the pack.
>> Transmission: ICE manual 5-speed
>> Brakes: OEM with vacuum pump
Replace with manual brakes.
>> On board Charger: Zivan NG-1
>> Garage charger: Lester 120v/20Amp metal-metal connector
Great for GC batts, deadly for sealed!!
>> Steering: Switch-enabled electric
Replace with manual.
>> Suspension: Additional rear leaf-springs
>> Tires: Stock
>>
>> Any thought on a fair price?
>>
>> Secondly, my State Farm rep claims they cannot insure the
>> vehicle. Does anyone have experience insuring an EV in
>>Pennsylvania?
State Farm insures other EV's so you might want to
check another agent. Progressive insures EV's along with
other companies.
Jerry Dycus
>> Richard
>>
>>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
On 17 Apr 2007 at 9:09, Tad Coles wrote:
> I'm considering purchase of a 1980
> Commuta Car that needs new batteries and has "leaky brake cylinders."
> I'm told it takes 8 golf cart batteries that cost ~$60 each (6 volt I
> assume). Does that sound right?
Pretty close. I used to figure around $45-50 each, but lead is very high these
days. Maybe $65 now? Somebody who's bought batteries lately should
speak to this.
> How much range/speed should I expect from
> this vehicle with new batteries?
Depends on whether it has the 6.38 or the 5.13 rear axle. Mine had the 5.13
and it struggled to approach 40mph. The 6.38 axle will be slower, but will
climb hills better (or perhaps I should say "will climb hills." ;-)
You wouldn't want to drive it much faster than 40 anyway. The suspension
and brakes are barely adequate for 35 mph. C-cars have a lot of bump steer.
I've read that a stabilizer can help this, but I don't know what you'd use or
where you'd mount it. Also, under heavy braking they tend to swap ends.
Practical range will be 30-40 miles in summer, 20-30 miles in the winter (less
if you live in the northern states). You could probably improve the winter
range with battery heaters.
> Do these cars have a stock on board charger? If so, How many hours does it
> take to fully charge the batteries with the stock charger?
There should be an onboard charger, unless it's failed or vanished. Figure
overnight charging, 8-12 hours. It's not a particularly sophisticated charger.
Replacements are available, but there are better choices.
>
> My impression is that these cars are very unsafe and hazardous if involved
> in a wreck. Thoughts?
Well, the Comuta-Cars supposedly passed FMVSS for their year. The
battery boxes provide a surprising amount of energy absorption.
However, there are a couple of potential problems. The steering column is
not collapsable; I'd think it would be a likely source of injury in a frontal
collision. Also, the driver's head is too close to the windshield.
They're safer than they look, but not by much.
>
> Any experience out there fixing leaky brake cylinders on Commuta Cars?
>
C-cars leak water (at least) around the back hatch, so they're always damp
inside. This may be the reason that the master cylinder (located under the
instrument panel) and wheel cylinders are usually corroded in old ones that
have sat for a while. The humidity inside the car seems to get into the brake
system.
The brakes in mine didn't work at all. I replaced the master cylinder. It was
identical to that for a '67 Rambler Ambassador with drum brakes. I was able
to rebuild the wheel cylinders in mine, except for one which was so far gone I
had to replace it.
At the time Sebring Autocycle still was selling parts, and I got rebuild kits
and a cylinder from them. However I also located the spares at a local
Cushman industrial vehicle dealer. I went with the factory parts because the
Cushman parts were MUCH more expensive.
Note that this was almost 20 years ago.
Nu-Kar and and EVPerformance still sell some C-car parts. They can be a
bit pricey.
http://www.api-assembled.com/electric/catalog/ordermenu.html
http://www.evperformance.com/
> Will the car fit on a 4X8 trailer (I think it will)?
It might. I think I hauled mine with a rented 5 x 10 flatbed trailer. It had
a
winch, which made the job easy.
Does anyone know how much it weighs (I think ~1400 lb with batteries)?
Something like 1480lb, I think, but I might be remembering incorrectly.
>
> The vehicle is about 250 miles from where I live so I have not seen it. I've
> never bid on a vehicle sight unseen, but considering that I live in Kansas
> City and there is a dirth of ready to drive EV's available here I guess I'll
> need to do so if I really want an EV. What else should I ask about before
> making a sight-unseen offer?
Just don't. Go see it. You should be able to drive that round trip in a day.
You want to make sure it's been under cover. If the car's been stored outside
the body may be in bad shape. The UV in sunshine is hard on ABS. The
paint was supposed to serve as a UV shield, but cars left in the sun can
crack and crumble.
That said, don't count it out just because it looks a bit rough. So did mine.
C-cars are really not that complicated to fix, assuming you have a little
experience with mechanical and electrical work. There's nothing on that car
that a normally fit person can't lift. The motor only weighs 65 lb.
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--- Begin Message ---
> Tinkers Workshop tried to move/sell an Electravan that they knew little
> about.
Someone has promised to pickup the Electravan & the motor & tranny that goes
with it & put it in running order. If it doesn't happen I'll let EVeryone
know but I think this person knows the value of this vehicle. Lets wish him
good luck. Lawrence Rhodes...
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Has anyone had experience using these as traction batteries in an EV?
I ask because I have used them in marine use and they are pretty much
the best thing going for lead acid durability and longevity. Yes, I
know they are pricey. :-)
--T
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ben an' EVerybody;
Badd-eries are HIDIOUSLY expensive nowadaze!! I was quoted for some here
in CT the other day. NINETY FIVE bux for T 105 equivelents. But they are
made by Surrete, the Rolls folks. They are famous for HD batteries for
trains, boats and Home Power setups.The big selling point is the Poz Plates
are hevier=.080 thick instead of .100. Sez double the life cycles, well I'm
reading from the Brochure.But Surrette is a famous battery builder. But ALL
GC batteries are shockingly expensive. But, I just bought a Prius trunk of
used T 105's, 6 for 150 bux, so they are out there!Ya take yur chances but
my FIRST load of T 105's lasted 20k miles!!For 400 bux. So I was a happy
camper.
Rae Battery, 51 Deming Rd. Berlin CT.... Talk to Roy, tell him I sentya
860-828-6007 he MIGHT have some left. Roy CAN cast ya decent terminals,
too!He is an old school battery guy, been in the biz since the 40's. When
I'm happy with somebody I like to spread the word.
Other Stuff;
Ben, yur voltage say is a bit too much. I think. Drive around hard an'
heavy, do some burnouts, fast runs in high gear then feel around. Anything
hot? Like my connections I made for ya???I think you are not getting all the
power you paid for? I used to sag about 5-10 volts at 200-250 amps in the
rabbit at 120 volts, at worst! Usually about 5 volts ran 115 v going down
the Turnpike.Anything hot? I'll be glad to redo them for ya!
Happy Hunting
Bob
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> The Volt is nothing more than an effort to get rid of the bad
> publicity that was generated by WKTEC, end of statement.
I disagree, but I understand where you are coming from. I'm not drinking
their Kool-aid, but I'm also not spreading doom, gloom, and FUD to
enhance the chance of it failing. Seems like a recipe for a
self-fulfilling prophecy, driven by the potential consumers themselves!
> GM deserves nothing from me but contempt, and when they get their
> arses handed to them by independents and go under, I'll raise a
> toast to days gone by and good riddens.
They're likelier to get their arses handled by their own unrealistic
business commitments to Big Labor, but I expect that the folks who claim
that their EV efforts are going to fail will also claim that their own
strident voice was what brought GM down.
Me, I'll support anyone who brings a mass-marketable, mass-producable,
PHEV or BEV to market at modest cost. Heck, I'd own one today if I could
find one that met my wife's carrying capacity requirements. Until that
happens, I'm on track to build my own lightweight runabout since I can't
find what I seek (thought the Bug-E is pretty close!)
Randii
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--- Begin Message ---
> i still haven't got any reply to that video clip where a VW beetle
> reared up like a horse when it accelerated ...
I missed that URL -- please re-post! I haven't seen a good Vee-Dub
wheelstand since the last time I was at the track! :D
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 17 Apr 2007 at 12:50, Timothy Balcer wrote:
> Has anyone had experience using these as traction batteries in an EV?
I'm sure I remember somebody on this list using them ...
Ah, here it is :
http://www.repp.org/discussion/ev/200103/msg01411.html
http://www.repp.org/discussion/ev/200103/msg01525.html
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I have an older Warp 9 (serial number 2) in my Mazda
2600 truck, powered by an older Zilla (serial # 6, the
ones without hairballs) and (23) Trojan T125s. There
will eventually be 24 Trojans in it. Any suggestions
what to set the max motor voltage to? What about max
battery amps?
I looked on Netgain's web site, but all I could find
is that it's a 72V motor.
Thanks for your time,
- Steven Ciciora
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Mark Dutko wrote:
I'm looking for a ABS or Polyester 10X11X4 approx high box for my
contactors and relays. Something with a screw top not mote than 5"H.
Does anyone know of a good source? I've looked at Hoffman, Budd,
Hammond. Any others? Other suggestions? I don't want to use metal of
aluminum.
Contactors produce heat and get hot. If you put them in a plastic box
without ventilation, they may melt their own ventilation holes!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Even though the truck is 10 years old the parts are not that out of date ,, the
dc to dc converter will have to go ,, as you can't tap the battery pack and
expect long battery life ,, the fact that the truck is in such good shape is a
very big plus ... so
motor and plate 2k
controller 1k
chargers 1k
truck body ????? some my say I'm hi on the used parts but looks like there
not to old ,, What somthing is worth is not always the same as what you can get
somthing for. In my mind EV's are way under priced , of many reasons ... Also
putting this all together would cost 3 to 6k depending on who did it . On the
other hand sombody in my town just bought a ev off e bay and they pretty much
ended up with just a old curtis and a z ban charger , the motor wasn't worth
anything ... A fair price might me 10 k ,,, the price the it will sell for , 5k
,,,, so it goes ...
looks like I'm back on the list if this goes through ?
steve clunn
>
> Hi, new to the list.
>
> I have an opportunity to buy an electric truck that was converted as a
> prototype over 10 years ago. It has been sitting in a garage unused ever
> since. I am trying to determine a fair market price. Here are the specs:
>
> Motor: Advanced DC FB1-4001
> Controller: Curtis 1231C (500A)
> Batteries: 20 new 12V PbA Deka DC31DT (2 parallel strings of 10)
> Body: 1994 Ford Ranger short cab, short bed (1,800 miles - spotless and
> looks like it came through a time machine)
> DC/DC: Curtis 72v/12v (tapping only 6 batteries)
> Transmission: ICE manual 5-speed
> Brakes: OEM with vacuum pump
> On board Charger: Zivan NG-1
> Garage charger: Lester 120v/20Amp metal-metal connector
> Steering: Switch-enabled electric
> Suspension: Additional rear leaf-springs
> Tires: Stock
>
> Any thought on a fair price?
>
> Secondly, my State Farm rep claims they cannot insure the vehicle. Does
> anyone have experience insuring an EV in Pennsylvania?
>
> Richard
>
>
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Appologies if this ended up getting posted twice...
Tomorrow I will be replacing my battery with the melted post with a new
battery. The pack is around 8-9 months old, and has been sitting for a
month uncharged. Is there anything special I need to do when I add in the
new battery? Anything special to do for a pack that's been sitting this
long?
thanks - De
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Oof. That's not a very good showing, methinks.
Very odd though.. that model actually is supposed to have something on
the order of 1.08 as a peukert's number. I'd be surprised if Surrette
intentionally advertised false information... they supply an awful lot
of battery to marine and solar installations.
--T
On 4/17/07, David Roden (Akron OH USA) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 17 Apr 2007 at 12:50, Timothy Balcer wrote:
> Has anyone had experience using these as traction batteries in an EV?
I'm sure I remember somebody on this list using them ...
Ah, here it is :
http://www.repp.org/discussion/ev/200103/msg01411.html
http://www.repp.org/discussion/ev/200103/msg01525.html
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Kaido Kert wrote:
What you are basically saying is that all the motor components,
winding insulation, rotor and bearings are overbuilt with a 10x
margin, provided there is sufficient cooling.
No; I don't think that's the case. Motors have enough safety margin to
survive in their *intended* application. Rarely will that be a 10:1
margin, because most applications aren't that brutal.
Motors that run a fan or blower have a very easy time of it. Fans don't
dray high starting currents, they never get overloaded (blocking a fan
make it draw *less* power), and by their nature have lots of cooling.
So, you might have less than a 2:1 margin for a fan motor.
On the other hand, a motor for a hoist, air compressor, bandsaw, etc.
may occasionally be subjected to considerable overloads. So, the
designer will have had to include a much larger safety margin, or he
will get lots of field failures and warranty returns.
But what we're talking about here isn't an overload in the normal sense.
When you double the frequency of an AC motor, you are re-rating it
(coming up with new ratings at a different operating point). A 10hp 120v
60hz motor becomes a 20hp 240v 120hz motor. It doesn't run any hotter,
and will last just as long.
Which prompts the question .. i wonder how one would monitor the
temperature of the rotor in a simple way ? Stator is easy enough
How simple, and how accurate?
I've seen old motors with a piece of bimetal attached to the end of the
rotor. A bakelite guard over it prevented wind cooling. If the rotor got
hot, the bimetal "popped" outward, which hit a microswitch to light a
"hot" indicator or shut down the system so it can cool.
I would imagine you could use a bimetal strip that flexed proportional
to temperature, and use a non-contact LED/phototransistor to measure its
position.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Jeff Major wrote:
Not that rotor temperature is not important, but these cast rotors have no
insulation. Melting point of aluminum is 660 deg C. The stator limit should
be in the 150 to180 d C range. Keep your stator within limit and the rotor
will probably be all right.
You run into problems with the rotor windings at very high torques
and/or very low speeds. If you're generating full torque at stall, for
example, the stator windings stay pretty cool buy you can *melt* the
rotor windings!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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GWMobile wrote:
I ditto that question.
I had a look at that site last year and immediately wondered about the
ability to instead make a home made motor the same way.
These aren't very good motor designs (or generator designs, for that
matter). They are optimized to be very simple, and generate useful power
at very low RPM. But their power-to-weight and efficiency ratings are
poor. They also tend to be quite expensive for a given amount of power
due to the magnets.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Lee Hart wrote:
A 10hp 120v
60hz motor becomes a 20hp 240v 120hz motor. It doesn't run any hotter,
and will last just as long.
Now how do we pump up that same motor to say, 200hp? Increase the hz?
What's the absolute upper limits?
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Timothy Balcer wrote:
> Very odd though.. that model actually is supposed to have something on
> the order of 1.08 as a peukert's number. I'd be surprised if Surrette
> intentionally advertised false information... they supply an awful lot
> of battery to marine and solar installations.
This Peukert exponent is a dead giveaway that the specs are wrong. 1.08
would be a decent number for an AGM, but completely unlikely for a
flooded battery.
Surette's site still lists the reserve capacity of the 30H108 (a group
30 flooded marine battery) as 203min, as does the spec sheet referenced
below, however, the table of capacity at various discharge rates in the
same spec sheet clearly reveals that 203min is not right. At 21A, the
capacity is 64Ah for a 180min runtime; at 28A it drops to 55Ah for a
120min runtime. 25A would be somewhere in the 140min ballpark between
these points, not somewhere over the runtime at the lower 21A rate.
<http://www.rolls-europe.com/PDF/30h108.pdf>
My understanding is that Surette-Rolls batteries offer an exceptionally
long service life, but are not well suited to higher discharge rates.
They are heavier and more expensive than similar size batteries from the
usual (Trojan, USBMC, etc.) sources.
For instance, their 225Ah golf car (GC2) size 6V flooded is heavier than
a T105 (74lbs) and delivers 414min reserve. A T105 weighs 62lbs and
delivers 447min reserve.
The 30H108 Surette model in question most closely matches the Trojan
SCS150 marine battery, which is rated 100Ah, and delivers 150min
reserve. The Trojan 30XHS (a BCI group 30 battery, I believe), is rated
130Ah and delivers 225min reserve, yet weighs just 66lbs vs the
Surette's 72lbs.
That the Surette spec sheet doesn't show discharge rates higher than the
C/1 rate (39A) is a warning sign that this model is not well suited to
high rate discharge. Comparing to the US Battery lineup, a near match
is the 50lb US27TM at 105Ah C/20 and 155min reserve. This little
battery is rated 51Ah C/1 vs the 72lb Surette's 39Ah.
Cheers,
Roger.
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Hello Steven,
I also have a Warp 9 motor and Trojan batteries. Otmar told me to set it up
as the following which will be proportional to your 23 batteries of 138 volt
if you are not racing:
BA, Battery Amp = 300
LBV, Low Battery Volt = 115 (which is 5 volts per battery)
LBVI, Low Battery Volt Indicator = 120 (is when a indicator comes on)
Motor Amp, = 800 ( this is maximum for a very short time, normal
running amp is 199 amps continuous)
Motor Volts, = can be set below, at or higher than the battery volta. The
motor volts will normally be lower than the battery volts.
You can set it at the motor label voltage and the motor may never see that
voltage with a Zilla.
I find in my EV, the motor volts will be about 50 volts at 200 amps while
the battery volt is 200 volts at 50 amps in any gear at any rpm below 60
mph. Above 60 mph in final gear, the motor volts is about the same as the
battery volts and the battery ampere is about 250 amps while the motor amps
is 270 amps.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Ciciora" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 2:13 PM
Subject: Warp9 max motor voltage?
> I have an older Warp 9 (serial number 2) in my Mazda
> 2600 truck, powered by an older Zilla (serial # 6, the
> ones without hairballs) and (23) Trojan T125s. There
> will eventually be 24 Trojans in it. Any suggestions
> what to set the max motor voltage to? What about max
> battery amps?
>
> I looked on Netgain's web site, but all I could find
> is that it's a 72V motor.
>
> Thanks for your time,
>
> - Steven Ciciora
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
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is fiberglas OK? It would be a good solution for me, maybe others...
JF
Lee Hart wrote:
Contactors produce heat and get hot. If you put them in a plastic box
without ventilation, they may melt their own ventilation holes!
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Hey Steve
I'd say somewhere between 150 to 160 volts, over that
and you'll be getting into the flashover voltage 8^(
I'll leave the battery stuff to others 8^)
Anyway hope this helps
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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Hello everybody:
Come summer, I always have the problem with an overheating DCP-1200
controller. I asked for some advise before, but haven't found any solution
yet. Here's my problem:
With outside temps. >= 80 degrees, I can't pull more then about 150
battery amps through the controller for any time >= 10 minutes without the
red control LED coming on. The fan works just fine, I even installed a
auxiliary blower so that the controller gets fresh air from below the car,
but it doesn't make a difference. The other day the red led came on but,
since I had to make it home, I reduced amps to about 75 A and limped home,
I let the truck sit in the driveway with power on, fans blowing, but even
after 1/2 hour, the overheat light was solid red.
I took the controller out of the truck today - thinking that maybe a wasp
had built a home-site in it, but nothing. Some dust, but nothing serious.
So - what else might be the problem? Any suggestions are welcome.
Michaela
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My former Think Neighbor is for sale. It needs a battery but otherwise is
in good shape. It has the plastic wind breakers. Does anone have a
Motorcraft battery used that might make the pack respond. One battery is a
stinker and started smoking the other day according to the current owner.
I'll get over to inspect it later today. Lawrence Rhodes....
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Richard Krog wrote:
Hi, new to the list.
I have an opportunity to buy an electric truck that was converted as a
prototype over 10 years ago. It has been sitting in a garage unused ever
since. I am trying to determine a fair market price. Here are the specs:
Motor: Advanced DC FB1-4001
Controller: Curtis 1231C (500A)
Batteries: 20 new 12V PbA Deka DC31DT (2 parallel strings of 10)
Body: 1994 Ford Ranger short cab, short bed (1,800 miles - spotless and
looks like it came through a time machine)
DC/DC: Curtis 72v/12v (tapping only 6 batteries)
Transmission: ICE manual 5-speed
Brakes: OEM with vacuum pump
On board Charger: Zivan NG-1
Garage charger: Lester 120v/20Amp metal-metal connector
Steering: Switch-enabled electric
Suspension: Additional rear leaf-springs
Tires: Stock
This is a pretty good set of parts. The only obvious weakness is that
the Zivan charger will probably ruin the Deka batteries from
overcharging (if they aren't ruined already). Tapping the pack to run
the DC/DC is also a poor idea, but easily fixed.
Any thought on a fair price?
Price is anything negotiated between buyer and seller. You could get an
idea what it's worth by adding up the cost of the above item. Subtract
from this for items that are bad or that you won't use (bad batteries,
wrong DC/DC). Add to this for things that are well done or that you
would have to pay someone to do (like the basic conversion itself).
Secondly, my State Farm rep claims they cannot insure the vehicle.
Does anyone have experience insuring an EV in Pennsylvania?
My EV is insured with State Farm. I've had at least 4 EVs insured with
them over the years, in NY, MI, and now MN.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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