EV Digest 6779
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Torque?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Solectra/Azure Dynamics DMOC445 AC controller
by Rob&Amy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Vehicle efficiency, wh/mile
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Reality check, Re: Permanent magnet motor question
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Permanent magnet motor question
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Surcharge on EV Registration to cover gas tax loss
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Solectra/Azure Dynamics DMOC445 AC controller
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Vehicle efficiency, wh/mile
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Vehicle efficiency, wh/mile
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: belly pan plastic
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Solectra/Azure Dynamics DMOC445 AC controller
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: belly pan plastic
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Reality check, Re: Permanent magnet motor question
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: belly pan plastic
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Vehicle efficiency, wh/mile
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Shave My Adapter?
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: belly pan plastic
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Vehicle efficiency, wh/mile
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) "Honey, I Shrunk the Tires"
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: belly pan plastic
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Torque?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) Re: belly pan plastic
by "TrotFox Greyfoot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Out of curiosity, do you know how much they are asking for these?
Thanks,
Rob
On May 15, 2007, at 5:56 PM, Tehben Dean wrote:
Does anyone have firsthand experience with the DMOC445?
How many parameters can you adjust for stuff like regen etc. with
software on a computer or whatever?
I think I might end up going with it because the Siemens stuff from
metric mind is so much more expensive.. especially the motors and i
think he said that they only sell the controller with a motor.
Still not sure what to do.
I do live in Alaska so over heating the motor is not as much a
problem as say Florida or Southern California. Even though the
water cooled system would be nice for heating the cabin.
Tehben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5/16/07, Al <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
George, I have considered solar panels, you could have 3 full size panels, 1
in the middle and 1 that unfolds on each side(if your parking space allows
it). The price you would pay would be too much for the relatively small
amount of power you could harvest. Best case 3X 200W panels. Say 6 hrs sun
X 600W = 3.6kwh. Maybe 9-10 miles. BUT panels add ~150lbs and cost ~ $4500
!!!
I'll save my money for a new or better battery pack
Al
While you are correct that Solar still has hard time paying off, your
weight numbers are based on silicon panels. Look at thin-film instead,
like PowerFilm ( http://www.powerfilmsolar.com/ ) which is pretty
available, and there are others.
The added weight is next to nothing, cost, however ..
BTW, there are couple of companies coming to market with massively
lower-cost thinfilm cells in near future, so keep your eyes open for
these. one of them did IPO last year ..
-kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Shawn and All,
While I like PM motors for the reasons you
state, you didn't mention the bad points much.
They may make 35hp peak but if run for more
than a sec or 2, they burn up as they have no mass to absorb
the heat.
Compared to series motors, the real traction
motor, you get much more starting torque, 3x's as much. It's
so bad that a Etek rated at 9hp couldn't handle a 1000lb EV
starting up a driveway and melted the com, where a 3.5hp GE
series motor, easily did the job for yrs.
So one needs at least 3x's the series
rating in hp, probably 5x's for the same starting torque,
performance!!
Then there is the cost which your PM is
about $900 each for which you could buy a ES-31/L-91 like
Killa-cycle uses 2 of yet you need 8 PM motors to not go as
fast. I'd bet his motor weight is less than yours.
While PM's have good points in very light
EV's or several ganged to a transmission in a lighter
conversion, they have large drawbacks too that should be
mentioned.
That said if you don't have a use for the
dead ones, I could use them to experiment on a new type of
BLDC for future production possibly.
I saw OJ down in the BBB and it was so
cool!! Love your drive train or lack of it ;^D
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Permanent magnet motor question
Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 21:35:19 -0400
>I love PM motors for traction applications. They are
>relatively light (Up to 35 HP from a 22 lb LMC motor)
>simple to customize, simple to control. They don't
>overspeed downhill and require no closed loop system for
>protection in case of drivetrain failure. They are easy to
>work on providing you respect the magnets. If peak torque
>is your goal then you may want to look elsewhere but for
>my motorcycle applications the PM is superior to all other
>motor types I have tried. Stay tuned to this channel. I
>have heard that new high voltage (120v+) 4 quadrant PM
>motor controls are just around the corner from more than
>one manufacturer. With system efficiencies above 90% this
>will be very nice for your M-cycle.
>
>Shawn
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Sent: Tue, 15 May 2007 7:55 PM
>Subject: Permanent magnet motor question
>
>Can someone explain if there's any functional difference
>with a PM motor
>(compared with a DC series motor) from a user's standpoint?
> I see angular-velocity
> and torque constants listed but don't know if
>I understand how these
>are manifested in an application. Is RPM limited and will
>the motor try to
>achieve that speed even under load? I like the light
>weight and the potential
>for regen appeals to me for another m-cycle project I'm
>thinking about.
>
>TIA for explanations on how these things work.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It has taken some trial and error when exchanging armature shafts on
some of these motors.
Many of the the motor frames/mounts/shafts are not exactly well suited
for our wheel drive applications but the performance curves and
relatively short length are. Revising a variety of these units to
custom splined shafts, different covers and bearings, liquid cooling,
etc. has been a rather fun challenge and has taught us alot about what
we can and can't economically do. We have done a lot of work lately
with the brushless PM units. I think they will work out very well for
us. The only rotating mass are the magnets and shaft. I can't wait to
to see what type of rpm we can push this design to.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Tue, 15 May 2007 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: Permanent magnet motor question
Shawn, Just a couple of probably unimportant thoughts: PM motors
always
run at full field strength so that eddy current losses are higher than
wound
field motors, depending on application and motor design, ie, laminated
frame
vs solid frame. Most PM's I have seen have solid frames.
I have also had trouble extracting armatures from PM motors and
reinserting
them w/o magnet damage. How do you do it?
On Tue, 15 May 2007 21:35:19 -0400, lawlessind wrote
I love PM motors for traction applications. They are relatively
light
(Up to 35 HP from a 22 lb LMC motor) simple to customize, simple to
control. They don't overspeed downhill and require no closed loop
system for protection in case of drivetrain failure. They are easy
to work on providing you respect the magnets. If peak torque is your
goal then you may want to look elsewhere but for my motorcycle
applications the PM is superior to all other motor types I have
tried. Stay tuned to this channel. I have heard that new high
voltage (120v+) 4 quadrant PM motor controls are just around the
corner from more than one manufacturer. With system efficiencies
above 90% this will be very nice for your M-cycle.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Tue, 15 May 2007 7:55 PM
Subject: Permanent magnet motor question
Can someone explain if there's any functional difference with a PM
motor
(compared with a DC series motor) from a user's standpoint? I see
angular-velocity
and torque constants listed but don't know if I
understand how these are manifested in an application. Is RPM
limited and will the motor try to achieve that speed even under
load? I like the light weight and the potential for regen appeals
to me for another m-cycle project I'm thinking about.
TIA for explanations on how these things work.
_________________________________________________________________________
___________
Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
________________________________________________________________________
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free from AOL at AOL.com.
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from AOL at AOL.com.
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--- Begin Message ---
In GA, we are charged an extra $25 / year on EV AFV
plates to make up the lost revenue from the gas tax.
But, it is optional. I have regular plates on my car
(not AFV) and always have on all of my EV's. I have
never actually paid the surcharge. As a result, I
don't get to drive in the HOV lane. But, I am 7 miles
away from the freeway, and only have a 12 mile range,
so I don't care about that.
Just one example of what one state has done to collect
the lost tax on fuel.
Steve
____________________________________________________________________________________
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the
Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know about now, but back when they were Solectra I asked them
about changing the programming on one of their controllers and charger. I
owned the controller & charger, I was going to pay them to change the
programming (it was setup for a special LiIon project with canbus)
Email: no response
Called them up: told me to email them
Email: no response
Called them again: told me they didn't know why I didn't get a response,
but would forward it to their tech folks and I would get a response right
away. No response
Emailed again: no response
Called again: asked for my email address and promised a response within
the week. No response
I gave up.
> Have any of you been to Azure Dynamics website?
> http://www.azuredynamics.com
>
> Here is the link to their controllers: http://www.azuredynamics.com/
> controller.htm
> Link to their motors: http://www.azuredynamics.com/motors.htm
> Their Product Support statement: http://www.azuredynamics.com/
> product_support.htm Which sounds pretty good :O
>
> I emailed them about the controller to find out if it has been
> updated since it was made by Solectra and to ask for more info on it.
>
>
> Tehben
>
>
>
> On May 15, 2007, at 7:21 PM, damon henry wrote:
>
>> Well, if EA or Azure will offer some kind of support then you
>> should be in pretty good shape. I just know there is not a lot of
>> chatter on this list about these systems. I also know that with
>> Metricmind you get a quality product and top notch support. I've
>> also heard nothing but good about EA and the fact that they are one
>> of the few compainies that has been able to sustain an EV based
>> business speaks volumes.
>>
>>
>>> From: Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>> Subject: Re: Solectra/Azure Dynamics DMOC445 AC controller
>>> Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 18:29:37 -0800
>>>
>>> Well Asure Dynamics is still around producing stuff like hybrid
>>> drives and they have the controller and motor on there website.
>>> Wouldn't the people at Electro Automotive be able to provide
>>> support?... anyway I set an email asking that very question to EA
>>> today.
>>>
>>> But yah I am not quite sure what to do at the moment.
>>>
>>> Tehben
>>>
>>> On May 15, 2007, at 6:19 PM, damon henry wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well, you've already bumped up against the main problem. If you
>>>> go with the Metricmind stuff you will have a reliable source for
>>>> any questions you want to ask. With the DMOC445 maybe/maybe not...
>>>>
>>>> damon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> From: Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>> Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>>>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>>>> Subject: Solectra/Azure Dynamics DMOC445 AC controller
>>>>> Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 16:56:01 -0800
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone have firsthand experience with the DMOC445?
>>>>> How many parameters can you adjust for stuff like regen etc.
>>>>> with software on a computer or whatever?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think I might end up going with it because the Siemens stuff
>>>>> from metric mind is so much more expensive.. especially the
>>>>> motors and i think he said that they only sell the controller
>>>>> with a motor.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Still not sure what to do.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do live in Alaska so over heating the motor is not as much a
>>>>> problem as say Florida or Southern California. Even though the
>>>>> water cooled system would be nice for heating the cabin.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tehben
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>> More photos, more messages, more storageget 2GB with Windows
>>>> Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-
>>>> us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Catch suspicious messages before you open themwith Windows Live
>> Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-
>> us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_protection_0507
>>
>
>
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If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
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--- Begin Message ---
Most likely they would switch to an additional electric vehicle tax like
they have in Oregon.
I'd suggest based on vehicle weight, on the idea that heavier vehicles
cause more wear and tear on the roads.
> Interesting thought. But how could they tax the electricity you used on
> the
> road vs. what you used in your house? Require a seperate meter?
>
> Marty
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "George Swartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>> Its a forgotten small detail, but if everyone converted to EV's, state
>> and
>> federal road taxes now applied to gasoline would have to be added to the
>> cost of electricity, boosting the electrical cost/mile somewhat.
>>
>>
>
>
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If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
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Ah yes, the "available in the near future" line. Sorry, but we've been
hearing that line for decades now. We'll have better/cheaper batteries
available "in the near future". We'll switch to a hydrogen economy "near
future". We'll have more efficient cheaper solar cells "near future".
Let us know when "near future" becomes "available now" then we'll get
excited, until then....<yawn>
> On 5/16/07, Al <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> George, I have considered solar panels, you could have 3 full size
>> panels, 1
>> in the middle and 1 that unfolds on each side(if your parking space
>> allows
>> it). The price you would pay would be too much for the relatively small
>> amount of power you could harvest. Best case 3X 200W panels. Say 6 hrs
>> sun
>> X 600W = 3.6kwh. Maybe 9-10 miles. BUT panels add ~150lbs and cost ~
>> $4500
>> !!!
>> I'll save my money for a new or better battery pack
>> Al
>
> While you are correct that Solar still has hard time paying off, your
> weight numbers are based on silicon panels. Look at thin-film instead,
> like PowerFilm ( http://www.powerfilmsolar.com/ ) which is pretty
> available, and there are others.
> The added weight is next to nothing, cost, however ..
> BTW, there are couple of companies coming to market with massively
> lower-cost thinfilm cells in near future, so keep your eyes open for
> these. one of them did IPO last year ..
>
> -kert
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
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--- Begin Message ---
From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: belly pan plastic
Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 23:15:27 -0500
Lexan (a trade name for polycarbonate) is a poor choice for impact
resistance.
You may be confusing polycarbonate with acrylic ( plexiglass).
Polycarbonate has very high impact resistance. Here is a link to a
manufacturer of police riot face shields made of polycarbonate:
http://sites.securemgr.com/folder11152/index.cfm?id=25482&fuseaction=browse&pageid=39
And, motorcycle helmets are often made of polycarbonate.
Phil Marino
It is actually somewhat brittle, relatively speaking.
Unless you need the clarity, there is no reason to use it. Also, Lexan
scratches easier than acrylic (Plexiglass) and will be probably rapidly
scratched by road debris being under the vehicle.
They go:
LDPE
HDPE
UHMW-PE
UHMW-PE is expensive but unbelievably tough. It is also chemically
resistant to most anything it may come in contact with. However, all the
PEs are subject to UV damage unless otherwise specified. There are some
additives which may slow down the rate of UV damage. Black is always
better but this is an unusual color to get. Polypropylene is more UV
resistant than PE, but hardly "UV proof".
However, being UNDER a car should not get that much UV. I suspect this
will probably be safe even without a UV stabilized version.
The corrugated plastic material is called "Coroplast", at least that's the
biggest mfg'er. Coroplast is corrugated polypropylene and you'll find many
signs are made from it, even some of those stuck into the ground by the
road. It is readily available from any plastics supply store. It is
cheap, light, and tough, though nowhere near as strong as a 1/8" sheet of
UHMW. However, I'd suspect it's strong enough to do this job! Given the
low weight and cost, I expect this may be the best choice. Special
mounting procedures would need to be used, generally this means large
washers to spread out the force so it does not tear around the bolt holes.
Danny
David Roden wrote:
Solectria used a corrugated plastic material. It reminds me of the stuff
that US Postal Service carrying boxes are made from. (If you have a
business with a PO box, you probably have a collection of these boxes, so
you know what I mean.)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Tehben Dean wrote:
Does anyone have firsthand experience with the DMOC445?
How many parameters can you adjust for stuff like regen etc. with
software on a computer or whatever?
I think I might end up going with it because the Siemens stuff from
metric mind is so much more expensive..
Sure. Thanks to wonderful state of US economy we're in. One dollar buys
only 73 Euro cents today. Back in 2000 very same systems were almost
twice as cheap here despite the fact that the cost of drives in Euro
currency didn't change much since then.
I can do nothing about that. You either have expensive drives or no
drives. Take your pick. (we're talking about pro, specifically EV drives).
especially the motors and i
think he said that they only sell the controller with a motor.
I don't believe Azure will sell you inverter alone. If they do this kind
of things, they're not being serious about business. Mix and match
hardware is amateurish approach and is OK and fun to tinker with, but
Azure thus far has not been known to be in a hobby business.
Still not sure what to do.
I do live in Alaska so over heating the motor is not as much a problem
as say Florida or Southern California. Even though the water cooled
system would be nice for heating the cabin.
I must disappoint you - this won't work. The drive is way too
efficient to generate appreciable amount of heat.
When I've started some years ago, I naively thought the same as you do
now, and I've tried this. Well, the cooling tubes are barely warm to the
touch as I drive. You've got to have electric heater (4-6 kW for Alaska
I suppose), either ceramic or liquid type.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's also used in signs, like some Real Estate for sale signs etc. I
bought mine at a local sign shop in 4' x 8' sheets. Pretty cheap.
If yo want something more durable (and heavier) you can try the fiberglass
or plastic panels that you can buy at your local hardware store. They use
them in bath rooms for tub surrounds, etc.
> Solectria used a corrugated plastic material. It reminds me of the stuff
> that US Postal Service carrying boxes are made from. (If you have a
> business with a PO box, you probably have a collection of these boxes, so
> you know what I mean.)
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
> the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a box full of parts that proves that PM motors can be fried like
a brain on rap music. And yes they are not cheap. I also like series
motors and use many of them, (primarily GE) in my industrial and parade
float vehicle applications. For extreme torque at low end combined with
a wide rpm operating range they are great.. However they require at
least four contactors that have to be full load rated for dual
direction control with regen and this does not include a 1A bypass or
field weakening contact. Also, for true top speed limitation we fit
them with an encoder which has to find a home along with the motor
brake. Add that to a standard series motor plus the fact that replacing
or altering the existing armature shaft for custom applications such as
splines is usually very tedious and the cost per hp comparison changes.
Then there is the length. We have hidden PM motors in such things as
saddle bags, under the seat, completely inside the wheel etc...
About OJ's runs in Florida. It became apparent on the first run that a
chassis tire setup designed for heavy AGM batteries located in front of
the drive wheels was not a good match for a lightweight A123 pack above
and to the rear of the wheels. As you know our tires have a very short
sidewall. With the position and extreme weight of the agm's this
(suspension) works beautifully. What we found out in Florida is that
when this weight was gone so was the contact patch and flex of the
tire. As you saw it drove as if it were on a sheet of ice. A more
conventional tall tire with lots of flex would have yielded much better
times. But that means chains, sprockets, belts, pulleys, etc. all the
usual boring stuff. Oh for the day when we get some nice 18" PM pancake
motors.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Wed, 16 May 2007 5:10 AM
Subject: Reality check, Re: Permanent magnet motor question
Hi Shawn and All,
While I like PM motors for the reasons you
state, you didn't mention the bad points much.
They may make 35hp peak but if run for more
than a sec or 2, they burn up as they have no mass to absorb
the heat.
Compared to series motors, the real traction
motor, you get much more starting torque, 3x's as much. It's
so bad that a Etek rated at 9hp couldn't handle a 1000lb EV
starting up a driveway and melted the com, where a 3.5hp GE
series motor, easily did the job for yrs.
So one needs at least 3x's the series
rating in hp, probably 5x's for the same starting torque,
performance!!
Then there is the cost which your PM is
about $900 each for which you could buy a ES-31/L-91 like
Killa-cycle uses 2 of yet you need 8 PM motors to not go as
fast. I'd bet his motor weight is less than yours.
While PM's have good points in very light
EV's or several ganged to a transmission in a lighter
conversion, they have large drawbacks too that should be
mentioned.
That said if you don't have a use for the
dead ones, I could use them to experiment on a new type of
BLDC for future production possibly.
I saw OJ down in the BBB and it was so
cool!! Love your drive train or lack of it ;^D
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Permanent magnet motor question
Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 21:35:19 -0400
I love PM motors for traction applications. They are
relatively light (Up to 35 HP from a 22 lb LMC motor)
simple to customize, simple to control. They don't
overspeed downhill and require no closed loop system for
protection in case of drivetrain failure. They are easy to
work on providing you respect the magnets. If peak torque
is your goal then you may want to look elsewhere but for
my motorcycle applications the PM is superior to all other
motor types I have tried. Stay tuned to this channel. I
have heard that new high voltage (120v+) 4 quadrant PM
motor controls are just around the corner from more than
one manufacturer. With system efficiencies above 90% this
will be very nice for your M-cycle.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Tue, 15 May 2007 7:55 PM
Subject: Permanent magnet motor question
Can someone explain if there's any functional difference
with a PM motor
(compared with a DC series motor) from a user's standpoint?
I see angular-velocity
and torque constants listed but don't know if
I understand how these
are manifested in an application. Is RPM limited and will
the motor try to
achieve that speed even under load? I like the light
weight and the potential
for regen appeals to me for another m-cycle project I'm
thinking about.
TIA for explanations on how these things work.
________________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey Al,
Whatever belly pan you use if it extends under the motor make sure
your motor gets plenty of air or is properly ventilated or your belly
pan will end up being a coffin for an overheated motor.
Chip
On May 15, 2007, at 11:21 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: "Al" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: May 15, 2007 9:55:19 PM EDT
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: belly pan plastic
I would like to work on improving the aerodynamics of my truck. Of
course I want to keep weight to a minimum.
I am considering LDPE, HDPE, and "Lexan" in say 3/32 or 1/8
thickness. Lexan is probably best at impact resistance. Not sure if
low or high density poly would be a good choice as it costs less
than Lexan. Thanks for any comments.
Al
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal writes:
>
> Most likely they would switch to an additional electric vehicle tax like
> they have in Oregon.
This is incorrect now. A few years ago they removed the extra fee for
hybrids and electric vehicles. Of course, they way they 'removed' the
extra fee was to increase everyone else's registration fees! The renewal
fee for hybrids and EVs is actually a bit less than for other cars now.
> I'd suggest based on vehicle weight, on the idea that heavier vehicles
> cause more wear and tear on the roads.
I keep hoping/suggesting that the system be changed to a weight-mile tax.
Then *all* road users are taxed for their direct impact on the roads.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Peter & Roland,
Thanks for your help. I'll look at Rolland's suggestions of what he did
which I appear to have the similar problem. A Porsche guy is selling me a
914 clutch setup for $420 (and frame stiffener for $320 for the floppy
frame) so that should keep me busy next week welding again & changing the
clutch. He thought the Porsche clutch plate/disk & throuwout bearing were
thicker than the VW bug and that's why it's not disengaging. The clutch
cable was initially adjusted but the arm bottoms out on the case. I tried
washers behind the throw-out arm to move it a bit closer but ran out of
travel. The VW flywheel may have to be changed to a Porsche flywheel if the
Porsche is thicker but I dunno and the engine was left in Knoxville (I'm in
Roanoke, VA).
I wound a 25uH 300A choke from a small uWave oven transformer (my favorite
for chargers) and am putting in series with the motor tonight since the
PMC-25 current limits (battery amps) to 100A starting and then quickly jumps
to 250A at 5mph but my garage start point is at a 30% grade.
Have a renewable energy day,
Mark
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 17:29:16 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: Shave My Adapter?
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I assume you've adjusted the clutch cable? During the normal course of
events the cable gets adjusted every year or so to account for wear in the
clutch and simply installing a new clutch without re-adjusting the cable
will result in the problem you're having.
If you have adjusted tried that already, do you still have the old ICE?
If so, put the flywheel back on it and measure the offset from the
flywheel face to the bell housing and compare to the adapter plate.
The bug and 914 engines are identical as far as mounting is concerned, in
fact the 914 actually used a slightly tweeked VW engine.
However, there were numerous different VW flywheel diameters, as well as
at least two different transmission shaft sizes, but this only effects
clutch plate selection.
Howdy,
My E-Porsche 914 (1974') clutch doesn't release and I was wondering if the
VW bug adapter I bought is too thick and by how much OR if the bug clutch
disc & pressure plate are the wrong dimensions (thickness) for the
Porsche.
Does anyone, Mike Brown etc know the dimensional differences between the
bug
& Porsche clutch from that era? ( It appears the throwout bearing isn't
traveling all the way before the arm bottoms out on the exit casing).
It's
like clutchless shifting right now (crunchy between gears).
Also I was curious about what brake pads have the best cooefficient of
friction. There's a lot of BS in the brake pad world. I was told that
organic Mintex pads were better than metalic but don't see any friction
rating numbers just various "heavy duty", "titanium" and other meaningless
claims. Iv'e done this brake pad change thing before and it usually is
just
an exercise in futility. I did find from my shop manual that my poor
braking is probably due to the rusty discs and they should be turned which
I'm doing today. I have the 17mm master cylinder instead of the 19mm for
less braking effort but I could probably use the bigger rear pistons that
were used on the heavier 6-cyl version. I removed the rear pressure
regulator like Otmar did which usually helps.
Have a renewabler energy day,
Stop by the June 3-7 WindExpo in LA,
Mark E. Hanson
Roanoke, VA
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--- Begin Message ---
I am gonna disagree on your comparison between lexan and acrylic, But it
depends on the grade of each. In most cases, you have them interchanged.
You are correct in it being a bad choice. Lexan gets damaged by
oils.(actually it causes it to get brittle). Race cars use lexan
windshields, bullet proof windows are sometimes lexan. Safety glasses
are lexan. Both are inapproriate for a belly pan anyway.
I have used the UHMW sheets to line the ramps for parts (from injection
molding). The parts hit it from a few feet distance and the ramp liners
lasted a long time.
One more material is available from places like Precision Plastics or
your local equivilant. The trade name is something like Vivek.
Vivek is PTEG, the material used in 2 liter bottles. It is very tough
and optically clear, UV stabilized, and is available in .062,.093,.125
thick 4x8 foot sheets. If you want clear, This is the way to go! Great
for you show car guys.
UV protection is a funny thing. The carbon black used in black color
adds protection but we used to make a part out of PE that was avail in
red,yellow,blue,white,and black. (Those hats with numbers on them they
used to put on your car at service centers.) Same plastic, no other
additives and by far the best UV protection was red.The worst was white.
We made another part out of PP or HDPE, (whichever was cheaper by the
rail car that month). We added a clear liqued UV protectorate at the
throat of the machine. By varing the mix ratio, we could get a specific
amount of uv protection measured in monthes to years. So it is really
whatever the blender or processor decided on.
Hard to beat coroplast for lightweight and lowcost, and built in
rigidity to prevent sagging.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They wouldn't have to tax electricity, just have an EV mileage tax added
on when you register or get inspected for the year. I have went to a
few meetings with my state senators in Virginia bringing up that very
thing. I am trying to get them to change the tax from gas to a miles
and weight tax so that the money collected is directly proportional to
the damage done to the roads. That way a heavy SUV pays more than a
light fuel efficient (or electric) car.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Swartz
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 23:17
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Vehicle efficiency, wh/mile
Its a forgotten small detail, but if everyone converted to EV's, state
and federal road taxes now applied to gasoline would have to be added to
the cost of electricity, boosting the electrical cost/mile somewhat.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HI,
I used the following formulae: Width x Aspect Ratio = Section Height
Section Height x 2 = Combined Section Height
Combined Section Height + Wheel Diameter = Tire Diameter
A 185/60R14 that's 185mm wide
is 185mm x .60 = 111mm (section height)
111mm x 2 = 222mm (combined)
222mm + 355.6mm(14") = 577.6mm or 22.74"
So I could find skinnier tires like P205's instead of P225's same diameter
for my Ford ranger (10% less width). Mileage went from 27mph to 18.5mph.
The Diesel Beetle went from 50mpg to 54 mpg hwy with a 10% surface area
reduction also.
My E-Porsche went from 30 miles range to 33 miles range so skinnier is
better (but for some goofy reason people put fat tires on cars).
Have a Renewable energy day
Stoip by the lA Wind Expo June 3-6
Mark in Roanoke, VA
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is wrong with using Aluminum? A 4x8 sheet of 18 gage aluminum is
cheap. You could also bend it around obstructions or form it where it
needed to be. It is light and will not crack or deform when exposed to
oils. You can also put in small openings for venting if needed.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 9:14
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: belly pan plastic
I am gonna disagree on your comparison between lexan and acrylic, But it
depends on the grade of each. In most cases, you have them interchanged.
You are correct in it being a bad choice. Lexan gets damaged by
oils.(actually it causes it to get brittle). Race cars use lexan
windshields, bullet proof windows are sometimes lexan. Safety glasses
are lexan. Both are inapproriate for a belly pan anyway.
I have used the UHMW sheets to line the ramps for parts (from injection
molding). The parts hit it from a few feet distance and the ramp liners
lasted a long time.
One more material is available from places like Precision Plastics or
your local equivilant. The trade name is something like Vivek.
Vivek is PTEG, the material used in 2 liter bottles. It is very tough
and optically clear, UV stabilized, and is available in .062,.093,.125
thick 4x8 foot sheets. If you want clear, This is the way to go! Great
for you show car guys.
UV protection is a funny thing. The carbon black used in black color
adds protection but we used to make a part out of PE that was avail in
red,yellow,blue,white,and black. (Those hats with numbers on them they
used to put on your car at service centers.) Same plastic, no other
additives and by far the best UV protection was red.The worst was white.
We made another part out of PP or HDPE, (whichever was cheaper by the
rail car that month). We added a clear liqued UV protectorate at the
throat of the machine. By varing the mix ratio, we could get a specific
amount of uv protection measured in monthes to years. So it is really
whatever the blender or processor decided on.
Hard to beat coroplast for lightweight and lowcost, and built in
rigidity to prevent sagging.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
the best way is to find a shop with a dynometer and test it.
via Treo
David Hrivnak
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subj: Torque?
Date: Wed May 16, 2007 3:02 am
Size: 161 bytes
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Hi,
I have a 1998 Chevy S10EV with an 85kW (114 horsepower) three-phase, liquid
cooled AC induction motor. How could I determine the torque?
Thanks,
Patrick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Define cheap. I'm finding prices from $70 for .032" up to +$300 for
18ga. This is something I've thought about doing to my ICE car (for
those spirited freeway runs) but at those prices I'd certainly be
using Coroplast!
Where are you buying from?
Trot, the aerodynamic, fox...
On 5/16/07, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
What is wrong with using Aluminum? A 4x8 sheet of 18 gage aluminum is
cheap. You could also bend it around obstructions or form it where it
needed to be. It is light and will not crack or deform when exposed to
oils. You can also put in small openings for venting if needed.
--
| /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember,
| ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a
| >\_/< [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative."
--- End Message ---
