EV Digest 6781
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Vehicle efficiency, wh/mile
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Vehicle efficiency, wh/mile
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Medium speed electric vehicles in Washington
by jessielectric <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: belly pan plastic
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: "Honey, I Shrunk the Tires"
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Here are the calculations.
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: "Honey, I Shrunk the Tires"
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Solectra/Azure Dynamics DMOC445 AC controller
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: belly pan plastic
by Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: My Watt-hour / mile with comments on battery cycle life and DOD
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: belly pan plastic
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: EVLN(USE BASIC WOODWORKING SKILLS TO CONSTRUCT YOUR VERY OWN EV)
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: belly pan plastic
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Does anyone know of a good steam car group?
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Highway taxes on EVs
by "Dustin Stern" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: belly pan plastic
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) oops
by "Dustin Stern" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: EVLN(USE BASIC WOODWORKING SKILLS TO CONSTRUCT YOUR VERY OWN
EV)
by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Since the specific energy is so small, you can "fill" the caps up
quickly. They hold less than 2% of what A123 cells will hold per
pound. You can add 2% SOC to an A123 cell in 6 seconds.
Apples to apples.
Bill Dube'
At 09:50 AM 5/16/2007, you wrote:
Marty,
It behaves like a capacitor. E = 0.5*C*V**2. Any
magic lies in the large value of C.
I am not saying caps are better for drag races. Just
trying to give some facts as I know from experience.
A drag race is just an application and you choose your
energy storage system to what you think best.
I was using ultracaps for hybrid vehicles and am
impressed by them. I can discharge or recharge the
pack in about 10 seconds. Try that with a battery.
Jeff
--- Marty Hewes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> But I still haven't seen an answer to a very
> important question (maybe I
> missed it). Halfway down the strip, when your pack
> is halfway discharged,
> your caps have a lot less voltage output to overcome
> motor back EMF, right?
> Or do these Maxwells do some magic where they don't
> discharge linearly like
> normal caps, but instead hold a voltage plateau
> (more or less) until near
> the end like batteries?
>
> Marty
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Major" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 10:03 AM
> Subject: Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
>
>
>
> I have tested a lot of Optimas and never saw
> anything
> close to 3 milliOhms. Always much higher. On the
> other hand, when testing Maxwell ultracaps, the
> resistance is lower than spec. Tested on a 9 pack
> of
> 2600 Farad cells (22.5 volts) was 4 milliOhms and
> did
> not change much with temperature or state of charge.
> The 9 cell pack weighed 14 pounds. Optima about 40
> pounds. Hence a much better power density for the
> cap.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________Sick
sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's
Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree, that's my point. That pretty well shoots the ideal of arriving at
the end with the charge depleted, because you'd have to arrive at the end
with near the maximum voltage needed to turn the motor against maximum back
EMF, so you'd probably still have half your charge, meaning you'd need to
double the pack size and weight to still have that much voltage near the
end. The fact that the discharge is linear is going to require carrying
more capacity to keep voltage up, which directly impacts energy density
calculations. Either that or you need a trick controller that inverts the
falling voltage up to a higher voltage required by the motor as the caps
voltage drops so you can use that charge.
I still think the promising place for caps is in a street vehicle to provide
short current peaks and protect the cheap floodies life span, which is more
like the way they are used in a hybrid.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Hewes
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 11:29 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
But I still haven't seen an answer to a very important question (maybe I
missed it). Halfway down the strip, when your pack is halfway discharged,
your caps have a lot less voltage output to overcome motor back EMF,
right?
Or do these Maxwells do some magic where they don't discharge linearly
like
normal caps, but instead hold a voltage plateau (more or less) until near
the end like batteries?
Marty
----- Original Message ---
You set your cap pack up, so at the end of the run it is still in the range
needed.
For example, (ficticious numbers mainly) our favorite series motors are
pretty much capped at 170volts, so we get an EHV-Zilla, set it to max motor
volts of 170, and size a cap pack that will start at the high end of the
Zilla and still be above 170 at the end of the run.
Or we get really smart and listen to the guy that has already done the
research and determined a much better solution.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well that's one idea. To tax trucks and Prius with even the same
cost-per-mile is already regressive, the opposite of the direction we'd
want to go. One could point to the fact that large and small vehicles
cause traffic congestion at approximately the same rate. Even a vehicle
3 ft longer makes little difference since required clearance in front of
the vehicle is most of its requirement. However equivalent per-mile
taxes of course undermine all the fuel-saving efforts that reduce global
warming and the political problems associated with our fuel dependance.
Historically I point to the tax incentives that actually encourage
people to buy SUVs and Hummers because it's treated as a light truck,
which is supposed to be a work vehicle.
If they were to be consistent with the past behavior, they might give a
break on the per-mile tax rate for heavy vehicles and shift the tax
burden to light vehicles.
Danny
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Danny> One of the stated motivations has actually been that fuel taxes
Danny> are unfair because hybrid cars pay much less road tax than a
Danny> Hummer. No joke. They've actually said this.
Make it fair and multiply the distance driven by the GVWR of the car.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Back on topic....
1992 Ford Escort wagon, hybrid electric, driven in EV mode, 250 W*h per mile
from the battery, BLDC motors, regen braking on, typical small-city (just under
one million people) driving ranging from 30 to 60 mph and a bunch of traffic
lights. With very light driving, I've managed to get 190 W*h per mile.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
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--- Begin Message ---
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: RE: belly pan plastic
Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 11:29:57 -0400
Isnt that black PVC heavy though? That is why I was saying aluminum.
That stuff is light.
Aluminum has a slightly higher density than PVC. So, it really depends on
the thickness of the material you use.
You could certainly get away with thinner aluminum because it is much
stiffer ( about 20X) than PVC.
The big advantage of coroplast is that, because of the double-wall
construction, you get a lot of bending stiffness for the weight.
Phil.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 11:06
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Cc: Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
Subject: RE: belly pan plastic
I am going to use a large sheet of black pvc. It is tough, cheap and
easy to install with push-pins so you can remove it later. Use
injectible foam to fill any gaps as needed and hit it with paint. Works
for me.
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
---- "Dewey wrote:
> What is wrong with using Aluminum? A 4x8 sheet of 18 gage aluminum is
> cheap. You could also bend it around obstructions or form it where it
> needed to be. It is light and will not crack or deform when exposed
> to oils. You can also put in small openings for venting if needed.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 9:14
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: belly pan plastic
>
> I am gonna disagree on your comparison between lexan and acrylic, But
> it depends on the grade of each. In most cases, you have them
interchanged.
> You are correct in it being a bad choice. Lexan gets damaged by
> oils.(actually it causes it to get brittle). Race cars use lexan
> windshields, bullet proof windows are sometimes lexan. Safety glasses
> are lexan. Both are inapproriate for a belly pan anyway.
>
> I have used the UHMW sheets to line the ramps for parts (from
> injection molding). The parts hit it from a few feet distance and the
> ramp liners lasted a long time.
>
> One more material is available from places like Precision Plastics or
> your local equivilant. The trade name is something like Vivek.
>
> Vivek is PTEG, the material used in 2 liter bottles. It is very tough
> and optically clear, UV stabilized, and is available in .062,.093,.125
> thick 4x8 foot sheets. If you want clear, This is the way to go! Great
> for you show car guys.
>
> UV protection is a funny thing. The carbon black used in black
> color adds protection but we used to make a part out of PE that was
> avail in red,yellow,blue,white,and black. (Those hats with numbers on
> them they used to put on your car at service centers.) Same plastic,
> no other additives and by far the best UV protection was red.The worst
was white.
> We made another part out of PP or HDPE, (whichever was cheaper by
> the rail car that month). We added a clear liqued UV protectorate at
> the throat of the machine. By varing the mix ratio, we could get a
> specific amount of uv protection measured in monthes to years. So it
> is really whatever the blender or processor decided on.
>
> Hard to beat coroplast for lightweight and lowcost, and built in
> rigidity to prevent sagging.
>
_________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: "Honey, I Shrunk the Tires"
Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 10:55:00 -0400
But I believe you are trading mileage for traction. A skinnier hard tire
will not be as good in the rain, a hard stop and hard cornering.
I disagree.
A hard, skinny tire will perform better in the rain than a wide, soft tire.
( easier dispersion of the water film, and less tendency to hydroplane).
The wider tire excels in performance on dry pavement.
Phil
You can also remove bumpers and seatbelts to save weight and also improve
mileage.
via Treo
David Hrivnak
-----Original Message-----
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subj: "Honey, I Shrunk the Tires"
Date: Wed May 16, 2007 9:35 am
Size: 1K
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
HI,
I used the following formulae: Width x Aspect Ratio = Section Height
Section Height x 2 = Combined Section Height
Combined Section Height + Wheel Diameter = Tire Diameter
A 185/60R14 that's 185mm wide
is 185mm x .60 = 111mm (section height)
111mm x 2 = 222mm (combined)
222mm + 355.6mm(14") = 577.6mm or 22.74"
So I could find skinnier tires like P205's instead of P225's same diameter
for my Ford ranger (10% less width). Mileage went from 27mph to 18.5mph.
The Diesel Beetle went from 50mpg to 54 mpg hwy with a 10% surface area
reduction also.
My E-Porsche went from 30 miles range to 33 miles range so skinnier is
better (but for some goofy reason people put fat tires on cars).
Have a Renewable energy day
Stoip by the lA Wind Expo June 3-6
Mark in Roanoke, VA
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But the difference is in specific power, W per kg. Some of those
ultracaps can supply hundreds of amps at a low voltage in a small, light
pkg.
Of course the picture is not clear until you calculate your voltage
needs so you can see how many W-hrs you will get before the voltage
drops below a point where the performance is not acceptable.
Danny
Bill Dube wrote:
I went to the Ness website and browsed the ultra capacitors to see
where the current specs were these days.
Under very gentle discharge, ultra caps have a specific energy in the
range of 2 to 5 Watt-hours/kg. (This will be much lower under high
discharge. You won't get even half of that at max power.) Here are a
few comparisons:
AGM lead-acid ~ 30 W-hr/kg
NiCads ~ 45 W-hr/kg
Li-Ion FePo ~ 110 W-hr/kg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
But I believe you are trading mileage for traction. A skinnier hard
tire will not be as good in the rain, a hard stop and hard cornering.
Actually, a skinnier tire is *better* in the rain; it has a higher
pressure on the road in its limited contact area, which is better at
squeezing out the water.
Likewise, skinny tires work better under certain winter conditions, like
ice and hard-packed snow.
Wide tires mainly help on *dry* smooth pavement, or when driving on soft
or loose material (sand, snow, etc.)
You can also remove bumpers and seatbelts to save weight and also
improve mileage.
Not enough to compensate for the increased risk.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Out of curiosity, do you know how much they are asking for these?
Well you can go to Electro automotive to see what they are selling
the Azure components for: http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/price-
pts.shtml
I don't know about now, but back when they were Solectra I asked them
about changing the programming on one of their controllers and
charger. I
owned the controller & charger, I was going to pay them to change the
programming (it was setup for a special LiIon project with canbus)
Email: no response
Called them up: told me to email them
Email: no response
Called them again: told me they didn't know why I didn't get a
response,
but would forward it to their tech folks and I would get a response
right
away. No response
Emailed again: no response
Called again: asked for my email address and promised a response
within
the week. No response
I gave up.
Was this contacting Solectra or Electro Automotive?
It seems like a lot of people have been warning me about tech support
with the Solectra/Azure system.
When did Azure actually buy Solectra? Azures website says that they
pride themselves with their customer support: http://
www.azuredynamics.com/product_support.htm
I emailed Azure with questions and am going to give them a week to
respond.
I must disappoint you - this won't work. The drive is way too
efficient to generate appreciable amount of heat.
Oh well... thats good I guess ;)
I don't believe Azure will sell you inverter alone.
Yep they won't, but their motors are under $2k... I just don't know
If I can afford yours (as much as I'd like to)
-I blame the prez personally, I swear it is a plot to keep EV's off
the road :@ ;) -
Tehben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Aluminum also gets "barnacles" after time. Just look at swiming pool ladders
and other things exposed to salt or chemicals after time. If it is under the
car, road debris is going to beat any kind of paint you put on it off over time.
Just a thought.
---- Phil Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> >From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >To: "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> >Subject: RE: belly pan plastic
> >Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 11:29:57 -0400
> >
> >Isnt that black PVC heavy though? That is why I was saying aluminum.
> >That stuff is light.
>
>
> Aluminum has a slightly higher density than PVC. So, it really depends on
> the thickness of the material you use.
>
> You could certainly get away with thinner aluminum because it is much
> stiffer ( about 20X) than PVC.
>
>
> The big advantage of coroplast is that, because of the double-wall
> construction, you get a lot of bending stiffness for the weight.
>
> Phil.
>
>
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Mark Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 11:06
> >To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >Cc: Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
> >Subject: RE: belly pan plastic
> >
> >I am going to use a large sheet of black pvc. It is tough, cheap and
> >easy to install with push-pins so you can remove it later. Use
> >injectible foam to fill any gaps as needed and hit it with paint. Works
> >for me.
> >
> >Mark Ward
> >95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
> >www.saabrina.blogspot.com
> >
> >
> >---- "Dewey wrote:
> > > What is wrong with using Aluminum? A 4x8 sheet of 18 gage aluminum is
> >
> > > cheap. You could also bend it around obstructions or form it where it
> >
> > > needed to be. It is light and will not crack or deform when exposed
> > > to oils. You can also put in small openings for venting if needed.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > On Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 9:14
> > > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > > Subject: Re: belly pan plastic
> > >
> > > I am gonna disagree on your comparison between lexan and acrylic, But
> > > it depends on the grade of each. In most cases, you have them
> >interchanged.
> > > You are correct in it being a bad choice. Lexan gets damaged by
> > > oils.(actually it causes it to get brittle). Race cars use lexan
> > > windshields, bullet proof windows are sometimes lexan. Safety glasses
> > > are lexan. Both are inapproriate for a belly pan anyway.
> > >
> > > I have used the UHMW sheets to line the ramps for parts (from
> > > injection molding). The parts hit it from a few feet distance and the
> > > ramp liners lasted a long time.
> > >
> > > One more material is available from places like Precision Plastics or
> > > your local equivilant. The trade name is something like Vivek.
> > >
> > > Vivek is PTEG, the material used in 2 liter bottles. It is very tough
> > > and optically clear, UV stabilized, and is available in .062,.093,.125
> >
> > > thick 4x8 foot sheets. If you want clear, This is the way to go! Great
> >
> > > for you show car guys.
> > >
> > > UV protection is a funny thing. The carbon black used in black
> > > color adds protection but we used to make a part out of PE that was
> > > avail in red,yellow,blue,white,and black. (Those hats with numbers on
> > > them they used to put on your car at service centers.) Same plastic,
> > > no other additives and by far the best UV protection was red.The worst
> >was white.
> > > We made another part out of PP or HDPE, (whichever was cheaper by
> > > the rail car that month). We added a clear liqued UV protectorate at
> > > the throat of the machine. By varing the mix ratio, we could get a
> > > specific amount of uv protection measured in monthes to years. So it
> > > is really whatever the blender or processor decided on.
> > >
> > > Hard to beat coroplast for lightweight and lowcost, and built in
> > > rigidity to prevent sagging.
> > >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> More photos, more messages, more storageget 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail.
> http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bill,
I mentioned it in a previuos post, but again, your
A123 battery looks like the way to go. Hard to argue
with the math or your time slips.
But realize that in your example, if all you use is
that 6 seconds or 2% SOC, then you carry 98% along for
the ride. What if you could use 75% SOC in 6 seconds?
Then you'd have less unused mass along for the ride.
Capacitors can do that for you. But the state of the
art for ultracaps is low energy density, so the A123
wins the drag race.
When I was racing (not drags), we always tried to
finish the race with an empty battery. Maybe just
enough left for a victory lap.
Keep going faster. I love what you're doing.
Jeff
--- Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Since the specific energy is so small, you can
> "fill" the caps up
> quickly. They hold less than 2% of what A123 cells
> will hold per
> pound. You can add 2% SOC to an A123 cell in 6
> seconds.
>
> Apples to apples.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
>
>
> At 09:50 AM 5/16/2007, you wrote:
>
> >Marty,
> >
> >It behaves like a capacitor. E = 0.5*C*V**2. Any
> >magic lies in the large value of C.
> >
> >I am not saying caps are better for drag races.
> Just
> >trying to give some facts as I know from
> experience.
> >
> >A drag race is just an application and you choose
> your
> >energy storage system to what you think best.
> >
> >I was using ultracaps for hybrid vehicles and am
> >impressed by them. I can discharge or recharge the
> >pack in about 10 seconds. Try that with a battery.
> >
> >Jeff
> >
> >--- Marty Hewes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > But I still haven't seen an answer to a very
> > > important question (maybe I
> > > missed it). Halfway down the strip, when your
> pack
> > > is halfway discharged,
> > > your caps have a lot less voltage output to
> overcome
> > > motor back EMF, right?
> > > Or do these Maxwells do some magic where they
> don't
> > > discharge linearly like
> > > normal caps, but instead hold a voltage plateau
> > > (more or less) until near
> > > the end like batteries?
> > >
> > > Marty
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Jeff Major" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 10:03 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Using Audio Capacitors for
> Dragsters
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I have tested a lot of Optimas and never saw
> > > anything
> > > close to 3 milliOhms. Always much higher. On
> the
> > > other hand, when testing Maxwell ultracaps, the
> > > resistance is lower than spec. Tested on a 9
> pack
> > > of
> > > 2600 Farad cells (22.5 volts) was 4 milliOhms
> and
> > > did
> > > not change much with temperature or state of
> charge.
> > > The 9 cell pack weighed 14 pounds. Optima about
> 40
> > > pounds. Hence a much better power density for
> the
> > > cap.
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>____________________________________________________________________________________Sick
>
> >sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's
> >Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.
> >http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seems like the solution to the linear discharge problem is to add a boost
converter (Like the Prius has) to the Controller. The Controller would keep
boosting the voltage until the Caps went almost flat. Sure, it'll add a lot
of MOSFETs or IGBTs and a inductor to your controller, but otherwise is not
fancy tech or heavy.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
I agree, that's my point. That pretty well shoots the ideal of arriving at
the end with the charge depleted, because you'd have to arrive at the end
with near the maximum voltage needed to turn the motor against maximum back
EMF, so you'd probably still have half your charge, meaning you'd need to
double the pack size and weight to still have that much voltage near the
end. The fact that the discharge is linear is going to require carrying
more capacity to keep voltage up, which directly impacts energy density
calculations. Either that or you need a trick controller that inverts the
falling voltage up to a higher voltage required by the motor as the caps
voltage drops so you can use that charge.
I still think the promising place for caps is in a street vehicle to
provide short current peaks and protect the cheap floodies life span,
which is more like the way they are used in a hybrid.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Hewes
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 11:29 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
But I still haven't seen an answer to a very important question (maybe I
missed it). Halfway down the strip, when your pack is halfway
discharged,
your caps have a lot less voltage output to overcome motor back EMF,
right?
Or do these Maxwells do some magic where they don't discharge linearly
like
normal caps, but instead hold a voltage plateau (more or less) until near
the end like batteries?
Marty
----- Original Message ---
You set your cap pack up, so at the end of the run it is still in the
range needed.
For example, (ficticious numbers mainly) our favorite series motors are
pretty much capped at 170volts, so we get an EHV-Zilla, set it to max
motor volts of 170, and size a cap pack that will start at the high end of
the Zilla and still be above 170 at the end of the run.
Or we get really smart and listen to the guy that has already done the
research and determined a much better solution.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Honda just put a new battery and computer in my
Insight and reduced the use to the piont where the
battery may last many 100's of 1000's of miles...of
coarse my milage went from 65mpg to 55mpg which is
just about what one gets with just the three cyl
engine alone...once the 150,000 mi warenty is up I
will go back to the old computer I got from a junked
2001???
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > This drastic under utilization of capacity to
> extend life is for lead
> > acid for sure.
> > Does it apply equally across other chemistries?
> That could impact the
> > total cost of ownership/operation a bit.
>
> It applies to all chemistries, though the amount of
> the derating varies.
> It's just that lead-acid has been around for so long
> that we have ample
> data to demonstrate the effect of depth of discharge
> on cycle life. With
> most other chemistries, no one has done the tests
> except on an informal
> or anecdotal basis, or have kept the data private.
>
> For example, Toyota keeps the nimh batteries in
> their hybrids between
> 40% and 80% SOC (i.e. uses less than half their
> capacity). Presumably
> this is to insure long life, but they don't publish
> the data.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________Be
a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark> If it is under the car, road debris is going to beat any kind of
Mark> paint you put on it off over time.
I suspect that POR-15 or powder coating would hold up pretty well.
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Did anyone ever buy this?
He keeps raising the price every month.
But he doesn't answer my email questions...
Thanks
Mike
--- bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> EVLN(USE BASIC WOODWORKING SKILLS TO CONSTRUCT YOUR
> VERY OWN EV)
> [The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public
> EV
> informational purposes. Contact publication for
> reprint rights.]
> --- {EVangel}
>
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20070305005564&newsLang=en
> March 05, 2007 06:26 AM Eastern Time
> Jeffrey Automotive Introduces Brand New Plan for a
> DIY Electric
> Car
>
> Plans Are for a DIY Electric Car That Can Be Built
> in the Garage
> or Workshop Using Basic Woodworking and Engineering
> Skills
>
> CORNWALL, United Kingdom--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Jeffrey
> Automotive is
> proud to introduce plans for a build-it-yourself,
> electric car.
> The car can be built for $5,000 or cheaper, with
> running costs of
> less than 3 cents a mile and no garage service
> bills. An
> excellent vehicle for doing the shopping, commuting
> to work or
> just for plain fun, all this, and drivers will be
> helping the
> environment in the bargain.
>
> The vehicle is a two-seater, powered by a 72volt DC
> motor with an
> anticipated top speed of 60 mph and a range of 50/60
> miles on one
> charge from six 12v deep cycle lead/acid batteries.
>
> The plans and the instruction manual are extremely
> detailed with
> photographs and drawings throughout to help the
> builder at every
> stage of construction. Further help and back-up is
> available
> through the web site.
>
> The car was designed to meet the growing demand from
> drivers
> concerned about global warming who are looking for a
> fossil-fuel-free, environmentally-friendly vehicle
> that doesn't
> cost the earth.
>
> George Jeffrey was well known back in the 70s as a
> designer and
> builder of sports and racing cars in Britain. The
> best known was
> the J5, a two-seater, open-top sports car, described
> by the press
> as a curvaceous driver's car.
>
> For additional information contact George Jeffrey or
> visit
> www.electric-cars-plans.com.
>
> Contacts Jeffrey Automotive George Jeffrey,
> +44(0)1579345255
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.electric-cars-plans.com
> -
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
>
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> ===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Looking for earth-friendly autos?
> Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos'
> Green Center.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________Be
a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oddly stainless steel is about the same price as aluminum. I just bought some
for the kitchen.
Zinc-plated sheet metal like that used in air conditioning ducts is much cheaper. Aluminum is hard to work - it wrinkles
and oil-cans easily, SSt is just plain hard.
Phil Marino wrote:
Aluminum has a slightly higher density than PVC.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
blog.nbc.com/jaysgarage
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of GWMobile
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 12:00
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Does anyone know of a good steam car group?
What is his site?
And I mean email group although a physical meeting group would be good
too .
On Wed, 16 May 2007 8:57 am, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
wrote:
> I would go to Jay Leno's site and ask him. He has a stanley steamer
> and he would know all the skinny on the groups and such.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of GWMobile
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 11:36
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Does anyone know of a good steam car group?
>
> Sorry for asking but does anyone know of a good steam car group?
>
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
> and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I saw in my ev digest that fuel taxes were discussed. As I'm not technically
as intelligent about many topics I don't post often, but I feel it important to
post about this topic which I am knowledgeable about.
I seldom here the following point made by proponents of alternative road tax
schemes: Currently most road and fuel taxes are not allocated towards
infrastructure maintenance or improvement. The majority of such taxes are
reallocated towards sustaining all kinds of non-infrastructure projects. I
won't debate the pros and cons of those projects, it's for each of us to decide
that.
I feel very strongly AGAINST alternative tax collection schemes to redress the
loss of fuel pump taxes. I feel this way because of the above fact (it's a
verifiable fact, and you can prove it easily enough, although the percentage of
reallocation will vary by state), and because I think it is a short term
thinking policy that stifles the kind of pioneering ethic Max Weber wrote
about; I think encouraging people to have the freedom to drive long distances
is one of the great advantages of this country. It provides a subconscious way
of looking at the world that I can assure you from my international travelling
does not exist in most other countries (excepting perhaps the UK).
As for the how to make up the loss of taxes, if you agree such taxes are
necessary (again I'm not addressing my own personal opinion on that), than I
strongly believe they should be collected via income or other taxes.
Lastly, having been in the military and law enforcement, I believe most
government employees are well meaning, but the temptation to misuse "black
boxes" for collecting information for other purposes is too great to be given
too anyone, never mind the commercial enterprises that will definitively want
access to those boxes. Conversely, I'm actually fine with passive RFID license
places. But not GPS trackers.
I'm posting this because I think EVers (and I'm building an EV right now)
should be the strongest advocates of this point of view. As a community of
pioneering spirits we need to advocate for what's in our long term best
interests.
v/r,
Dustin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also if you were worried about it denting you could always get it coated
with rhino liner or herculiner.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of john fisher
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 14:32
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: belly pan plastic
Oddly stainless steel is about the same price as aluminum. I just bought
some for the kitchen.
Zinc-plated sheet metal like that used in air conditioning ducts is much
cheaper. Aluminum is hard to work - it wrinkles and oil-cans easily, SSt
is just plain hard.
Phil Marino wrote:
>
>
>
> Aluminum has a slightly higher density than PVC.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I see my post was off pronounced off topic prior to sending it...I should have
read further down to find the comment by GWMobile <[EMAIL
PROTECTED]>...apologies!
Dustin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your doing the math wrong. Work the problem per kg.
It takes just 2.0 Watt-hours to completely fill 1.0 kg of high-power
ultra caps. You can do this in 10 seconds.
With 1.0 kg of A123 cells, you can push in 2.0 watt-hrs in about 4 seconds.
Since you aren't completely filling the A123 cells, you can use the
pulse wattage input maximum rather than the 100% charge input current maximum.
But realize that in your example, if all you use is
that 6 seconds or 2% SOC, then you carry 98% along for
the ride. What if you could use 75% SOC in 6 seconds?
Then you'd have less unused mass along for the ride.
Capacitors can do that for you.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 11:12 -0700, mike golub wrote:
> Did anyone ever buy this?
> He keeps raising the price every month.
> But he doesn't answer my email questions...
>
> --- bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > EVLN(USE BASIC WOODWORKING SKILLS TO CONSTRUCT YOUR
> > VERY OWN EV)
> > [The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public
> > EV
> > informational purposes. Contact publication for
> > reprint rights.]
> > --- {EVangel}
> >
> http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20070305005564&newsLang=en
> > March 05, 2007 06:26 AM Eastern Time
> > Jeffrey Automotive Introduces Brand New Plan for a
> > DIY Electric
> > Car
I think the worst part is that according to his site, buying the book
"gives you the right" to build only one vehicle. To build more, you have
to pay for additional licenses!
http://www.electric-cars-plans.com/faq.html
I'm glad most how-to books aren't shackled this way...
--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That would be a very cool controller. Imagine being able to have 2 72 volt
strings of 6 volt GC batteries in parallel to provide lotsa acceleration
current without damaging the batteries, and then having the controller be
able to boost the voltage for higher speeds. I suppose someone here has
done a setup that does series parallel switching of battery strings to
achieve this?
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
Seems like the solution to the linear discharge problem is to add a boost
converter (Like the Prius has) to the Controller. The Controller would
keep boosting the voltage until the Caps went almost flat. Sure, it'll
add a lot of MOSFETs or IGBTs and a inductor to your controller, but
otherwise is not fancy tech or heavy.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
I agree, that's my point. That pretty well shoots the ideal of arriving
at the end with the charge depleted, because you'd have to arrive at the
end with near the maximum voltage needed to turn the motor against maximum
back EMF, so you'd probably still have half your charge, meaning you'd
need to double the pack size and weight to still have that much voltage
near the end. The fact that the discharge is linear is going to require
carrying more capacity to keep voltage up, which directly impacts energy
density calculations. Either that or you need a trick controller that
inverts the falling voltage up to a higher voltage required by the motor
as the caps voltage drops so you can use that charge.
I still think the promising place for caps is in a street vehicle to
provide short current peaks and protect the cheap floodies life span,
which is more like the way they are used in a hybrid.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Hewes
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 11:29 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
But I still haven't seen an answer to a very important question (maybe I
missed it). Halfway down the strip, when your pack is halfway
discharged,
your caps have a lot less voltage output to overcome motor back EMF,
right?
Or do these Maxwells do some magic where they don't discharge linearly
like
normal caps, but instead hold a voltage plateau (more or less) until
near
the end like batteries?
Marty
----- Original Message ---
You set your cap pack up, so at the end of the run it is still in the
range needed.
For example, (ficticious numbers mainly) our favorite series motors are
pretty much capped at 170volts, so we get an EHV-Zilla, set it to max
motor volts of 170, and size a cap pack that will start at the high end
of the Zilla and still be above 170 at the end of the run.
Or we get really smart and listen to the guy that has already done the
research and determined a much better solution.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
--- End Message ---
