Roland, I do hope you are not advocating the use of highly toxic and horribly dangerous Potassium hydroxide be carried around in cars as an alternative to (equally as dangerous and impractical) H2? Any collision would make a Tesla fire look like cap gun going off in comparison. Thank God these chemicals are so expensive!
Regards, Martin. ]] On 21 May 2014, at 16:12, Roland via EV wrote: > You do not need a H2 tank to hold hydrogen. You do need a standard tank to > hold KOH or other type of chemicals that has H2 to H4 components which is > normally for running a standby generator or a fuel cell that can generated up > to 50kw. > > The inventor of the alkaline battery also invented this type of fuel cell > system. The military has been using this type of system to instead of a > noisy field generator. > > The problem is, the fuel cost is about $15.00 a gallon in a 55 gallon > container which I could get locally from a chemical plant. The cost comes > down if you get the fuel in 5000 gallons or is cheaper in the 20,000 gallons > tanks. > > H2SO4 which is used in lead acid batteries cost about $15.00 per quart > containers which is pure 18 specific gravity. > > Roland > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Ross via EV<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> > To: Cor van de Water<mailto:cwa...@proxim.com> ; Electric Vehicle Discussion > List<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> > Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 8:41 AM > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Toyota Drops RAV4-EV-gen2, shifting to h2 > > > Toyota is as big a business as there is, along side the oil industry. I > think they are just getting in bed with their buds. > > It is all about the gas station infrastructure - many see it as too > ingrained to be avoidable - in that context H2 makes sense as a clean fuel > if you don't look too close. There is a lot of money to be made if they > are right, and Toyota probably thinks they and the oil companies, et al., > can make it right. > > I think Musk simply questions basic assumptions like this and moves on. > Then suddenly before the entrenched know what has hit them, there is a > completely new, potentially viable, very different option that cuts them > out. > > Now is when we really start to see sparks fly. > > > On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 7:07 AM, Cor van de Water via EV > <ev@lists.evdl.org>wrote<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org%3Ewrote>: > >> H2 is (as we all know) a dead end until significant innovations are made >> and its energy efficiency remains questionable (read: the fuel is likely >> to remain non-competitive) no matter how much the fuel cell gets >> innovated. >> BTW, FCV is still an electric vehicle. It should be called FCEV. Only >> the energy storage is in H2 instead of in batteries, but you need a fuel >> cell to get the power out again so instead of just a controller to tap >> into the battery power, you need the series of H2 tank - fuel cell - >> (often intermediate battery storage for power peaks and for regen >> braking) - controller - electric motor. >> >> So, when (probably not "if") the FCV line fails, just rip out the >> clumsy fuel cell setup and H2 tank, pop in a good battery bank and >> off you go in your new EV. >> >> Cor van de Water >> Chief Scientist >> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com<http://www.proxim.com/> >> Email: cwa...@proxim.com<mailto:cwa...@proxim.com> Private: >> http://www.cvandewater.info<http://www.cvandewater.info/> >> Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Chris Tromley >> via EV >> Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 3:59 AM >> To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Toyota Drops RAV4-EV-gen2, shifting to h2 >> >> Without wanting to get into a detailed FCV discussion here, I'm puzzled. >> >> 1. Last I heard a practical FCV was not possible until some Brand New >> Stuff was invented, and no one knew if/how/when that would happen. >> 2. Last I heard there was no way to create H2 that was anywhere near as >> efficient as just filling a battery with the same energy. >> 3. Last I heard FCV fueling infrastructure was wildly more expensive >> than >> EV fueling infrastructure. >> >> I'm trying to understand the business case for pursuing FCVs instead of >> the >> seemingly more promising path of furthering advanced lithium >> chemistries. >> The only plausible reason to pursue FCVs that I can think of is that >> it's >> too easy for an upstart manufacturer (like that pesky Tesla) to become >> an >> EV manufacturer. The fact that FCVs are inherently more complex and >> require far more in-house R&D are barriers to entry for new players. >> But >> even that would require winning the hearts and minds of the driving >> public, >> and I don't see how the user experience is significantly better. Heck, >> I >> don't see how you could make an FCV that would gain more market >> acceptance >> than Toyota's own hybrids. >> >> I'm trying hard to make sense of this. Where's the return for Toyota? >> Is >> there something new in FCV development that I missed? >> >> Chris >> >> >> On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 4:44 AM, brucedp5 via EV >> <ev@lists.evdl.org<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >> http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2014/05/toyota-pulling-plug-on-rav4-ev/<http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2014/05/toyota-pulling-plug-on-rav4-ev/> >>> Toyota Pulling Plug on RAV4-EV >>> by Paul A. Eisenstein May 16, 2014 >>> >>> [image >>> >>> >> http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Toyota-RAV4-E<http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Toyota-RAV4-E> >> V-front-3-4.jpg >>> Toyota only planned to sell 2,500 RAV4-EVs >>> ] >>> >>> Maker shifting focus from battery-electric to [h2] power. >>> >>> Toyota is pulling the plug on the RAV4-EV, the battery-electric >> version of >>> the soft-roader it introduced two years ago with the help of electric >>> vehicle start-up Tesla Motors. >>> >>> This year's phase-out of the RAV4-EV comes as the Japanese giant gets >> ready >>> to launch its new [h2]-powered FCV, which made its debut at the Tokyo >> Motor >>> Show last autumn. While it has been the most successful manufacturer >> of >>> conventional hybrids, Toyota has repeatedly expressed its concerns >> about >>> pure battery-electric vehicles relying on advanced lithium-ion >> batteries. >>> >>> The move also comes as Tesla gets ready to launch its own, first >>> battery-electric SUV, the Model X due to market something in 2015. >>> >>> "Our contract called for Tesla to supply approximately 2500 >>> battery-electric >>> powertrains for the RAV4 EV. We anticipate that volume will be >> achieved >>> this year," noted John Hanson, Toyota's national manager of advanced >>> technology communications. >>> >>> Toyota's Bob Carter showed off the FCV [h2] car concept vehicle at >> CES. A >>> production model debuts next year. >>> >>> The decision to end the RAV4-EV project raises questions about the >>> relationship between Toyota and Tesla, the Japanese maker serving as a >>> strong and early partner for the Silicon Valley-based >> battery-carmaker. In >>> fact, founder Elon Musk has credited the ties between the two as >> having >>> helped Tesla get through a tough financial period before it was able >> to >>> launch production of its first volume electric vehicle, the Model S >> sedan. >>> >>> Toyota has not only invested in Tesla but it sold the smaller maker >> its old >>> assembly plant in Fremont, California, where the Model S is now >> assembled. >>> In turn, Tesla provided not only the batteries but the basic >> drivetrain for >>> the RAV4-EV. >>> >>> But the end of production of the RAV4-EV doesn't mean that the two >>> companies >>> have parted ways. >>> >>> Hanson noted that the Japanese maker has "a good relationship with >> Tesla >>> and >>> will evaluate the feasibility of working together on future projects." >>> >>> Tesla's Model X, the company's next gen vehicle, also utilizes cameras >>> instead of traditional side view mirrors. >>> >>> What those are, neither carmaker is saying. But Tesla is busy ramping >> up >>> its >>> own production and getting ready to launch not only the Model X but >> also a >>> smaller, more affordable battery car that is expected to come to >> market >>> under $50,000, potentially giving the company a more mainstream >> audience >>> than the Model S, which currently can run as high as $110,000 when >> fully >>> loaded. >>> >>> Though Toyota makes it sound like it simply decided to let the RAV4-EV >>> program run its natural, limited course, there could be other factors >> at >>> work. Tesla, for example, has been struggling to get enough batteries >> to >>> meet projected future demand. Founder and CEO Musk recently unveiled >> his >>> so-called Gigafactory project, designed to be the world's largest >>> lithium-ion battery plant when it gets into production by decade's >> end. >>> >>> As for Toyota, the maker has been openly skeptical about the potential >> of >>> lithium-ion power, even running a recent ad that focused on the >> limitations >>> of battery technology. Notably, it has stuck with more time-tested - >> if >>> less >>> powerful - nickel-metal hydride batteries for its familiar hybrid >> models, >>> such as the segment-leading Prius line. >>> >>> Meanwhile, Toyota is getting ready to launch into the emerging [h2] >> market >>> with its first production model, the FCV, introduced in Tokyo last >>> November. >>> The vehicle uses a fuel-cell stack to provide electric current for a >> drive >>> system not unlike that in battery cars like the RAV4-EV. But the FCV >> will >>> get about 200 miles on a tank of [h2] and can be refilled in minutes, >>> rather >>> than the hours EVs need to recharge. >>> >>> The big challenge is the lack of a hydrogen refueling infrastructure, >>> though >>> there are aggressive steps underway to expand the availability of [h2] >>> pumps >>> in the Southern California region where the FCV will be sold. >>> >>> Toyota has to hope it gains traction with its [h2] car. Like its >>> competitors, it will have to meet California's tough new >> Zero-Emissions >>> Vehicle, or ZEV, mandate with a minimum number of sales each year. >>> >>> While Toyota considers the "feasibility" of future ventures with >> Tesla, the >>> California-based EV maker has established additional ties with Daimler >> AG. >>> It provided the drivetrain for the first battery version of the Smart >>> Fortwo, known as the Electric Drive. And it developed the drivetrain >> for >>> the >>> new Mercedes-Benz B-Class Electric Drive just going on sale in the >> U.S. >>> >>> A senior Daimler official told TheDetroitBureau.com last week the >> company >>> is >>> currently evaluating additional product opportunities with Tesla. >>> [(c) thedetroitbureau.com] >>> ... >>> >>> >> http://www.autospies.com/news/Toyota-Kicks-RAV4-EV-To-The-Curb-After-Onl<http://www.autospies.com/news/Toyota-Kicks-RAV4-EV-To-The-Curb-After-Onl> >> y-Two-Years-81350/ >>> Toyota Kicks RAV4-EV To The Curb After Only Two Years >>> ... >>> http://gas2.org/2014/05/15/toyota-rav4-ev-always-placeholder/<http://gas2.org/2014/05/15/toyota-rav4-ev-always-placeholder/> >>> The Toyota RAV4 EV Was Always A Placeholder >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> For all EVLN posts use: >>> >>> >> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/Na<http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/Na> >> mlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date >>> >>> >>> >> http://www.technologytell.com/in-car-tech/8754/production-begins-nissan<http://www.technologytell.com/in-car-tech/8754/production-begins-nissan>- >> e-nv200/ >>> Production begins for Nissan e-NV200 >>> >>> >>> >> http://www.torquenews.com/1080/nissans-andy-palmer-drops-details-new-lea<http://www.torquenews.com/1080/nissans-andy-palmer-drops-details-new-lea> >> f-infiniti-ev-plans >>> Nissan's Andy Palmer drops details on new LEAF, Infiniti EV plans >>> >>> >>> >> https://gigaom.com/2014/05/13/a-japanese-startup-unveils-a-long-lasting<https://gigaom.com/2014/05/13/a-japanese-startup-unveils-a-long-lasting>- >> and-safer-battery-made-from-carbon/ >>> A Japanese startup unveils a long-lasting and safer battery made from >>> carbon >>> >>> >>> >> http://www.autoevolution.com/news/new-zealand-preaches-the-electric-vehi<http://www.autoevolution.com/news/new-zealand-preaches-the-electric-vehi> >> cle-ways-in-special-bootcamp-81228.html >>> New Zealand Preaches the Electric Vehicle Ways in Special Bootcamp >>> + >>> EVLN: 2014 Nissan Leaf Recall, If Welds Missing, EV Will Be Replaced >>> >>> >>> {brucedp.150m.com} >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> View this message in context: >>> >> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Toyota<http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Toyota> >> -Drops-RAV4-EV-gen2-shifting-to-h2-tp4669571.html >>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at >>> Nabble.com. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: >>> http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub<http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub> >>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org<http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org> >>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA>) >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140521/81cd<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140521/81cd> >> d880/attachment.htm> >> _______________________________________________ >> UNSUBSCRIBE: >> http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub<http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub> >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org<http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org> >> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA >> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA>) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> UNSUBSCRIBE: >> http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub<http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub> >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org<http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org> >> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA>) >> >> > > > -- > Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain > happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? > *Dalai Lama * > > Tell me what it is you plan to do > With your one wild and precious life? > Mary Oliver, "The summer day." > > To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. > Thomas A. > Edison<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>> > > A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. > *Warren Buffet* > > Michael E. Ross > (919) 550-2430 Land > (919) 576-0824 > <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones<https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones>> > Google Phone > (919) 631-1451 Cell > (919) 513-0418 Desk > > michael.e.r...@gmail.com<mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com> > <michael.e.r...@gmail.com<mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com>> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140521/4f2ec40d/attachment.htm<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140521/4f2ec40d/attachment.htm>> > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: > http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub<http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub> > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org<http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org> > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA>) > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140521/07912b88/attachment.htm> > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
