You are leaving out the self heating inside a battery under load Sent from my iPhone
On May 29, 2019, at 3:25 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: >> wouldn't it be just as easy to insulate the battery and >> provide a small electrical heat source. 100W or so? > > Lets say a 1000 lB battery. It takes 1 BTU to raise one pound one degree. > To raise 1000 lbs say 40 degrees from 0F to 40F would take 40,000 BTU or > about 11 kWh > Or about 33 miles of range given up to heat the battery. > > But one should assume that the 11 kWh is used up from the MAINS while > charging (not after unplugging) so the battery is pre-heated. Then the > calculation is simply based on how rapidly the battery pack gets cold while > driving. Maybe 1 kw could maintain it for a while. > > But notice, you are giving up 33 miles of range from your Electricity source > in either case. SO for a daily 33 mile overnight charge and 33 miles of kWh > consumption to warm the battery, you are still only getting 50% the energy > equivlanet range. > > Not a problem when all you need to do is add a few more solar panels and > have free energy for life. But is a problem when trying to justify going > electric in Minnesotta. > > Bob, WB4APR > \ > > -----Original Message----- > From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV > Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2019 4:03 PM > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> > Cc: Peri Hartman <pe...@kotatko.com> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] BYD's(style.cn) inflated range ratings - how about > fossil fuel heaters? > > If you're building from scratch, wouldn't it be just as easy to insulate the > battery and provide a small electrical heat source? If well insulated, how > much power would it take? 100W or so, or am I completely off. > Peri > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruni...@usna.edu> > To: "Peri Hartman" <pe...@kotatko.com>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" > <ev@lists.evdl.org> > Sent: 29-May-19 8:01:46 AM > Subject: RE: [EVDL] BYD's(style.cn) inflated range ratings - how about > fossil fuel heaters? > >> I wouild like to see the cost/carbon/benefit analysis of providing >> fossil-fuel catalytic heaters in cold climatges. Yes, there is double >> to triple energy savings with heatpumps but they still do not work >> effectively at cold climates. >> >> Me thinks that using a fossil fuel 99.9% efficient heater for people >> and battery might be worth studying in cold areas.. And the tradeoff >> should be based on total carbon emissionis, not just cost. And, of >> course, it will change over time as the grid gets cleaner. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV >> Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2019 10:43 AM >> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> >> Cc: Peri Hartman <pe...@kotatko.com> >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] BYD's(style.cn) inflated range ratings bite them in >> the arse >> >> I wonder why they didn't' design a battery warmer into the case (at >> least I assume they didn't). Seems that would have made a tremendous >> difference in this case. >> >> ------ Original Message ------ >> From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org> >> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org> >> Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" <ma...@enviropolicy.com>; "brucedp5" >> <bruce...@juno.com> >> Sent: 28-May-19 11:54:38 PM >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] BYD's(style.cn) inflated range ratings bite them in >> the arse >> >>> It’s not about whether or not the range is lower at lower >>> temperatures, or what you get in your car, but the accuracy of the >>> claims being made by vendors of zero emission technologies, and the >>> commitments they make to customers. >>> >>> BYD has some *great* products and is run by sone great folks, but this >>> kind of thing undermines the ability to transform fleets to zero >>> emissions. It hurts all of us working in the field when companies >>> fail to meet the contracted performance specs in their contracts. >>> >>> And this is not the only similar horror story I’ve heard (though not >>> necessarily about BYD). >>> >>> There is really no excuse for this. I will likely see BYD’s President >>> later this week, and will be expressing my disappointment. >>> >>> - Mark >>> >>> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone >>> >>>> On May 28, 2019, at 7:58 PM, Rod Hower via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Anybody that drives an EV, even a Volt that is a series hybrid >>>> realize the cold temperature limitations, especially if you like to >>>> keep it warm and cozy on cold days. I get 46 miles EV on my 2014 >>>> Volt on the best days, 24 miles on the coldest nastiest days when I >>>> like to keep the car warm and toasty. Not a problem for me since I >>>> commute 21 miles and plug in at work and I also plug in at home >>>> with 240V so I never use gas. My best guess is this BYD range was >>>> estimated by sales and marketing while the engineers were cringing >>>> in the corner knowing it was complete BS, but the accounting >>>> department and upper management looking for higher returns on >>>> investment realized range needed to be increased to meet contracts >>>> with bus fleets that required the higher range, regardless of them >>>> actually needing them. The good news is that the majority of bus >>>> manufactures see the writing on the wall and are planning for an all >>>> electric fleet knowing that will be demanded soon by many fleet orders. >>>> The immediate future for bus transit is electric and most >>>> manufactures are already gearing up for that. With the >>>> advancements in batteries, motors and controls, most fleet >>>> operators realize that electric is cheaper to maintain than diesel >>>> or natural gas. The transitions will not happen overnight, been >>>> when the people paying for overall cost of fleet operation is much >>>> cheaper on electric they will switch, and it's coming soon < 5 years. >>>> On Tuesday, May 28, 2019, 10:34:59 PM EDT, brucedp5 via EV >>>> <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> https://electrek.co/2019/05/24/byd-indianapolis-electric-bus-range/ >>>> BYD installing wireless charging in Indianapolis to boost >>>> disappointing range of its electric buses May. 24th 2019 >>>> >>>> [image >>>> >>>> >>>> https://i2.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2019/05/ind >>>> y >>>> gobydbus.jpg >>>> e-bus >>>> ] >>>> >>>> Electric bus maker BYD has to install and pay for a wireless >>>> charging infrastructure upgrade in Indianapolis after its buses >>>> experienced “lower-than-expected distances on one charge” during >>>> testing. >>>> >>>> Indianapolis Public Transportation Corporation IndyGo announced it >>>> reached an agreement with BYD to get the new infrastructure. BYD >>>> will install wireless charging hardware for the buses, in addition >>>> to three wireless inductive charging pads along bus routes. >>>> >>>> During testing, IndyGo realized low temperatures were causing a >>>> dramatic dropoff in predicted range. Justin Stuehrenberg, IndyGo >>>> vice president of capital projects and planning, said: >>>> >>>> “We anticipated that vehicle range would depend on >>>> temperature, but the contract requires a 275-mile range at 0 >>>> degrees. Our team identified several options to address the issue >>>> and worked closely with BYD to determine the most feasible >>>> resolution. At the same time, we made it clear to the company they >>>> must be accountable to our contract. Numerous test days this spring >>>> resulted in range performance at and above the contractually >>>> required 275 miles on a single charge. To date, the best range of >>>> any one test was 307 miles on a single charge.” >>>> >>>> Many of those tests didn’t approach the required 275 miles, >>>> usually ending somewhere in the low 200-mile range, as the range >>>> report from IndyGo reveals. On one frigid day, range was limited to >>>> 152 miles. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA >>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA >> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
