10wh/mi is extremely dubious. It'd be great if that were physically possible at realistic speeds but it just isn't.
But, my biggest problem with things like the Aptera is really safety. All other things being equal, safety in a crash comes down to energy transfer. And, energy is a function of mass and speed. This is why buses in the US don't have seatbelts for kids. The bus weighs more than almost anything else on the road so unless the bus hits a full cement truck head on it will not experience too shocking of a load. From a physics perspective, this is the answer to the question: "when two equal cars, each going 60MPH hit, is it better or worse than hitting a brick wall at 60MPH?" Well, it's the same. Two cars of equal mass, each going the same speed but in opposite directions will have the same kinetic energy. So, when they hit they cancel out each other's energy and both stop as if they hit a brick wall going 60MPH. However, if an F150 with 1500lbs of bricks in the back gets into a head on collision with an Aptera it's going to go straight through it and not even come to a complete stop. The Aptera will look like it was hit with a stack of dynamite. The F150 driver will spill his coffee and ruin his front end. This is part of the subconscious reason that people in the US buy such big cars. If I buy a big car or a truck and so does everyone else but you don't... Well, you're going to have a terrible time if one of us crashes into you. So, we buy bigger and bigger vehicles so that we're "safer" on the road. To some extent, that is sound logic. On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 3:04 PM David Heacock via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > Okay so we have some good conversation going here. I'll try to keep this > is short as possible. I am actually happy that some may believe the Aptera > might achieve 100 wh/ mi or 10 miles per kWh. I'm really not sure that can > be done but we will see and yes I would like to see some actual range > numbers when testing begins with the production version maybe later this > year. > Yes the steering wheel is different and yes Tesla tried something like > this and there were complaints. I think it fits with the look of the > Aptera but I'm also not sure if I will like it even though people who have > driven the vehicle seem to be happy and haven't so far expressed concerns. > On being safer than a motorcycle, in my younger years I may have been > naive enough to think I could just jump clear of my motorcycle when struck > by another vehicle but I'm very sure I will be safer in an Aptera if > tee-boned at 30 mph by another vehicle. There are references to testing > that showed the roof strength of the Aptera is better than other vehicles > and the composite materials used are stronger than steel along with the > fact that they will have two air bags. Yep, would be nice if they had side > impact air bags but maybe in the future. > Stability. the reference presented is from May 1980 which is old news but > the funny thing is it points out three things that make a three wheel > vehicle better than a four wheel vehicle. 1. lighter, 2. more efficient > aerodynamic envelope and 3. reduced cost--everything Aptera has been > pointing out. But here is the real head scratcher from the paper, it > concludes that it is possible to build a 3-wheel car with essentially the > same handling and overturn characteristics as any 4-wheel car. So you want > stability, take a look at the Moose Test conducted over a year ago aptera > moose test What makes it stable? Well Roush has been involved in design > and improvements and Aptera has been fine tuning the suspension. It also > has an 88 inch front wheel base as pointed out-try finding a trailer it > will fit on. For Roush Roush Advances Development of Aptera’s Solar > Electric Vehicle | Aptera > > | > | > | > | | | > > | > > | > | > | | > Roush Advances Development of Aptera’s Solar Electric Vehicle | Aptera > > Michael > > Roush Advances Development of Aptera’s Solar Electric Vehicle Roush, > recognized global leader in engineering, pr... > | > > | > > | > > > > > As far as storage space, my point is mainly you can carry more than one > bag of groceries and some pretty big items can be placed in the back > without all the trouble of folding down seats and such. Think of it this > way, you are going over to a friends house and want to borrow a ladder, do > you take your gas SUV with seats that don't fold flat or just take the > Aptera? I'm sure this discussion can go either way. > Yep it might be too wide in some cases, i.e. garage or trailer. Agree you > are not going to use an Aptera for a family of four. But again, consider > how many people drive to work or the store or whatever with one person in > the car. And the price of gas, like I said before, isn't going down. And > with today's economy I find it hard to believe the average American can > afford three or four vehicles and are are in fact looking for something > that will save them money. > As far as solar, I don't think it is all marketing and yes your results > will vary. Again, testing later this year might help answer some questions > but if I can get even 15 miles of added range while the Aptera is sitting > in a parking lot all day, sounds good to me. As far as comparing the solar > on the Aptera to solar on the roof of your home I'm not quite sure how you > can use your the solar on your home when you are 100 miles from your home. > And what many don't either want to talk about or don't understand, solar on > most homes these days are totally useless when the grid shuts down--things > are changing but it is going to cost money. Maybe just plug in you Aptera > instead of buying a backup battery for your home? > The market for the Aptera? Got me, time will tell. But with 44,000 > signed up for one, I have to believe that if they had 20,000 tomorrow they > could easily sell 10,000 which might set off a fire for demand. But this > gets back to my point about supply. For example, Arcimoto had a demand for > something like 5000-10,000 if I remember correctly but when they could only > produce a few hundred a year all you have to do is figure out how long it > will be before you actually get one. If you can't sell enough vehicles you > can't be profitable. If you are going to look back 30 years for examples > try my Avanti, it was supposed to save a 100 year old Studebaker company > but because they could not deliver enough of them and had quality control > issues, a vehicle that was said to be ahead of its' time died. > I agree people are not buying EVs because they are cleaner and will save > the environment, because they won't. And yes there is competition and the > longer it takes Aptera to get to production the more it becomes an issue. > But I also feel it is a good idea and hope I get one. > There are a lot of videos out there and I would recommend watching the > good and the bad with an open mind. The future of EVs may well be a lot > different than it currently seems. > Cheers. > On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 06:59:01 PM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV > <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > > As I said before, raising efficiency rather than jamming in a monster > battery is a Good Thing. If we can believe the claims for Aptera, in that > respect it's on the right track. > > I want to see the EPA/WLTP numbers, but I can sort of believe that it > could > manage 100 wh/mi. The humble 1992 Solectria Force, a well-designed Geo > Metro conversion, managed 150 wh/mi, though not on the highway. > > On 8 Sep 2023 at 0:28, David Heacock via EV wrote: > > > it is classified as an autocycle which has features such as three > > wheels, a steering wheel and the driver is enclosed. > > Maybe it's just quibbling, but I saw a photo (rendering?) of the interior > and I wouldn't call that weird D-shaped thing a steering wheel. Nor would > I > want to use it. Maybe others would be fine with it. > > > I would feel much safer driving an Aptera, especially because of the > > way the frame and body are made. > > Maybe you'd *feel* safer, but would you really be? I'm not an engineer, > but > everything I've read says that it's a challenge to design a stable 3-wheel > vehicle. > > http://www.evdl.org/docs/ev_expo_80_8039_3-wheel_stability.pdf > > The Corbin Sparrow had some fairly serious stability problems, especially > if > the battery mass was changed or moved. > > What has Aptera done for improved stability? > > > A number of comments have mentioned the limited amount of space inside > > the vehicle but there are references to the Aptera having 60% more > > storage space than a Honda Accord and 20% more than a Toyota Prius. > > Now hold on. Are they comparing space behind the seats? To make this > fair, > they should fold down the back seats in the Accord and Prius so they're > also > 2-seat cars. > > I don't know how they'd fare that way, but I can tell you that Aptera's > specs claim 32.5 cu ft of cargo space - 920 liters. If we make our > Renault > Zoe into a 2-seater, we have 1,225 liters of cargo space - about 1/3 more. > > And that's in a smaller exterior than the Aptera's. The Aptera is 455cm > long and 223cm wide. That strikes me as an awfully big footprint for a 2- > seat car. > > It's wider than a Tesla Model 3, which is classified as a large car in > Europe. Thus there are places an Aptera can't go. For example, it's 3cm > too wide to fit through the alley leading to my garage. > > > I think the more reasonable consideration would not be the storage > > space, but the fact that it is a two seater. > > I agree. That makes it a specialty vehicle and limits its sales > potential. > Ask Honda why they dropped the CRX, and why they turned the Insight into a > bland 5-seat family car. > > > when you consider a lot of people commute to work alone this might > > make a great second vehicle > > And not so good for taking the kids out for ice cream or picking up a > couple > of friends at the airport. I'm thinking 3rd or 4th vehicle, not second, > but > that's me. > > > A lot of discussion about how practical solar is for the Aptera ... > > Most of it here has had to do with PV efficiency and square area. > > Thing is, without tracking, it will only hit peak power at noon, and only > in > the summer. > > Winter will cut the energy harvest. So will a cloudy place like Seattle. > Tall city buildings will shade it. You can't put it in the garage and > still > solar-charge it. > > What will it cost to replace the PV if it's in a wreck? Someone mentioned > vandalism, and I don't think you can dismiss that as the coal-rolling > crowd > cranks up the violence. Both of these lead to higher insurance costs. > > What I'm driving at: I can't think of a case where it doesn't make more > sense to put PV on your roof instead of on your car. > > > As far as a market for this vehicle, Aptera thinks there may be a > > market of 600,000 vehicles per year > > Sorry, that's an investor pitch, not a realistic sales estimate. > > A Mazda Miata is also a 2-seater. Its base price is pretty close - about > $28,000. Last year Mazda moved 10,547. In its best year, 1990, Mazda > sold > just under 36,000 Miatas. > > So, 600,000 Apteras per year? I don't think so. Maybe 6,000 if they're > lucky. > > > From my perspective new EV startups have often failed not because of > > lack of demand but because of lack of supply and the money to make the > > vehicles. > > I'd be interested in hearing where you saw that. I've been watching the > EV > world since 1967, and the many failures I've seen have involved lack of > demand. > > There just weren't a lot of buyers lining up for a EV that did less than > an > equivalent ICEV, but cost more. Sure the EV is cleaner, but very few > people > care. > > Don't forget the competition. The Aptera price is actually pretty good, > if > they can stick to it, but at least in Europe, there are several more > conventional EVs in a similar price class. They may have less range, but > they're more flexible. > > Cheap and cheerful Chinese EVs are another looming threat. So is Tesla's > long-promised $25k EV, if it ever actually materializes. > > I think Aptera has a good basic idea. It probably does more with it than > others have in the past. It wouldn't work for me, but that doesn't mean > it > won't work for anyone. I just don't know who or how. Do they? Do you? > > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > Hypothetical median income of full-time US workers if income > were distributed as evenly as it was in 1975: $92,000 > > Actual median income of full-time US workers: $50,000 > > -- Harper's Index, December 2020 > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > _______________________________________________ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20230910/7dc3b073/attachment.htm > > > _______________________________________________ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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