RE: More on qualia of consciousness and occam's razor

[Stathis Papaioannou]

I am using terms like "information" loosely when discussing subjective 
experience precisely because I cannot think of a way to formalise it. 
Perhaps its defining characteristic is that it cannot be formalised. One can 
imagine that if we made contact with an extraterrestrial civilization, 
however alien it is, we could eventually exchange information about the 
natural sciences, mathematics, history, anything "objective". It would 
effectively involve finding an algorithm to convert from one formal system 
to another, or one natural language to another. But although the aliens may 
be able to explain how their physiology has evolved so that gamma rays which 
are an odd multiple of a certain wavelength cause them to feel a pleasant 
sensation while even multiple rays cause them to feel a completely 
different, unpleasant sensation, we as humans would have absolutely no idea 
what these sensations are like to experience.

So, in addition to the empirical data, there is this extra bit of 
information, neither contained in the data nor able to be derived from it 
using the laws of physics: what it actually feels like to be the one 
experiencing the subjective sensation. If someone can think of a better way 
to describe it than "extra bit of information" or can come up with a way to 
formalise it, I would be happy to hear about it.

I suppose there will still be some who insist that if you know all about the 
physiology etc. behind the alien response to gamma rays, then you know all 
there is to know. I think this response is analogous to the "shut up and 
calculate" attitude to the interpretation of quantum mechanics.

Stathis Papaioannou

From: "Ben Goertzel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stathis Papaioannou" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
CC: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: More on qualia of consciousness and occam's razor
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 11:34:22 -0500
>     ; you might even be able to "read" the brain, scanning for neuronal
> activity and deducing correctly that the subject sees a red
> flash. However,
> it is impossible to know what it feels like to see a red flash unless 
you
> have the actual experience yourself.
>
> So I maintain that there is this extra bit of information -subjective
> experience or qualia - that you do not automatically have even if
> you know
> everything about the brain to an arbitrary level of precision.

In what sense is a quale "information"?

formalizing this might help me to understand your hypothesis better

ben



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