Bruno Marchal wrote: > Colin, > > We agree on the conclusion. We disagree on vocabulary, and on the > validity of your reasoning. > > Let us call I-comp the usual indexical mechanism discussed in this > list (comp). > Let us call m-comp the thesis that there is a primitive "natural > world", and that it can be described by a digital machine. > > UDA shows that I-comp entails NOT m-comp. > Obviously m-comp entails I-comp. > > So m-comp entails NOT m-comp. > > This refutes m-comp. My argument involves refuting what you call m-comp Where did you get the idea I am suggesting "/It can be described by a digital machine/"? I'll state it again.... There is a natural world (a) It is imperfectly described from within in 2 ways (b) and (c). A symbolic description which is predictive of appearances (b) needs no assumption that the natural world is computing (b) or is a computation of (b). A symbolic description which is predictive of structure (c) needs no assumption that the natural world is computing (c) or is a computation of (c). The 'describing' in (b) and (c) invokes no necessary 'digital machine'. The Turing computation of the descriptions (b) and (c) is /not claimable to be a natural world/ by anything more than a form of faith.
This seems to be the sticking point ... this 'digital machine' idea ....the automatic attribution of symbolic regularities as some kind of computation then attributed some kind of involvement in the natural world. This extra attribution is not justified. Non-parsimonious, not logically connected in any necessary way. > Now you seem to believe in a stuffy natural reality, so you have to > abandon I-comp. This is coherent. Now you have to say "no" to the > doctor and introduce actual infinities in the brain. I find this very > unplausible, but it is not my goal to defend it. > > Now I find your reasoning based on informality not convincing at all, > to say the least. It is really based on level confusion s Peter Jones > was driving at correctly. You "B" above seems also indicate you have > not study the argument. > > Bruno The COMP that I refute is pragmatic and empirically tractable. Yes, m-comp is false. I don't need I-comp to reach that conclusion I need only go as far as the (a)/(b)/(c) framework in which (b) and (c) are imperfect, incomplete and non-unique symbolic descriptions of a natural world and which otherwise have no involvement in the natural world /at all/. Two different entities (human and Klingon :-) ) in our natural world could have completely different (b) formulations and be as predictive as each other. Study or not study?.... makes no difference. The whole idea of i-comp is unnecessary. BTW, just in case there's another issue behind this....there's no such thing as 'digital'. Anyone who has ever done electronics will tell you that. It's all 'analogue' ...a construction of a quantised reality. By 'analogue' what I mean is "whatever it is that is the natural world (a)" above. All the digital machines on the planet are analogue. These are the ones people are using to do AGI. The virtual-discretisation we call digital <> quantisation of QM. So when you invoke a 'digital machine' you are talking about a fiction, anyway. Quantum computers merely facilitate multiple simultaneous executions within the same kind of "virtual-digital" structure ...doing lots more virtual-digital work doesn't make the computation any more digital than a standard PC. So in reality (a) there is no such "thing" as a Turing machine. There are only machines acting 'as-if' they are, by design, through constraint of analogue state transitions. I have personally played with the electronic transition between 0 and 1 on many occasions it's as real as the 0 and the 1 and you can walk all over it. There's multiple layers of misconception operating in this area. And they are not all mine! Colin --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
