“It sound more like you are reifing body and system.” Would you rather me rarefy it? “Consciousness here and now is accepted by many as the most undoubtable truth” That to which you point by the indicator consciousness, observe that… it is not a clear and defined perception, it is not a clearly delineated “thing”… it is a obscure and indefinite I-don’t-know- whatness, an unknown unknown… something that cannot be clearly stated or comprehended or defined… so you cannot say what it is… By calling it consciousness you trick us… because you give us the impression we know what it is or that it is, that we have some grip or handle on it or that it is an object of knowledge. Buddhists have been grappling with the problem of so called consciousness for millennia… where have they gotten? They either b.s. or they claim that it is not what it appears to be, that it is not a definitive thing, that it is unrealized, and that its “essential nature” is something other then what it appears to be… blah blah blah… they claim it is this or that…. the “primordial ground of reality” or “pure subtle energy” and other fantastical notions…. So who knows what consciousness is? “Body and system are rather clearly mind constructions to organize experience.” But so is mind and mind-construction a mind-construction. Do you distinguish between consciousness and experience? I think your choice in the usage of the term theology is not very insightful. What etymological grounds and logic do you have for this?
On Jul 3, 7:34 am, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > On 02 Jul 2011, at 21:24, B Soroud wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > "A property of consciousness is" > > > it sounds like you are reifying "consciousness"... consciousness is > > not a thing in itself, consciousness does not exist in and of > > itself... it can only be understood within the interdependent and > > complex framework of sensation, bodies, space.... consciousness of > > something, in and through something.... inseparable from the system > > of space, energy, matter and motion... and essential equal to it.... > > not something seperate and distinct from it that can exist > > independently of it.... > > > consciousness is not something that exists in itself.... > > consciousness is always embodied consciousness of life.... in and > > through life and the complex instrument of form and the mystery of > > sensation and generation. Consciousness is a phenomena of the "body" > > and its natural system... and is equal to that "body" and "body > > system". > > > it sounds like you guys are reifing consciousness.... > > It sound more like you are reifing body and system. > > Consciousness here and now is accepted by many as the most undoubtable > truth, even if unprovable to a pair. > Body and system are rather clearly mind constructions to organize > experience. > > Anyway, my point is logical. If the brain works at some level like a > digital machine, then physics emerge from arithmetic (or any universal > system (in the Post Church Turing sense). > > Computationalism makes the mind body problem into a math problem, > sometimes called the "measure problem" in this list. > > In the theory of digital machines (theoretical computer science) > consciousness appears like a word used by machines to refer to > something they want consider as true, even undoubtable, yet > incommunicable/unprovable. It has a role, including a role in the > origin and stability of the material observable. > > I can only refer you to my papers (see my url). My goal is not to > argue on the truth, nor even the plausibility that the brain act as a > Turing machine, but that IF that is true then Plato's theology is more > correct than Aristotle, in a way which is empirically testable. Just > to be short and clear. Comp makes theology a science. In all case, > even if comp is false, it happens that machines have an interesting > theology, where theology is defined as the set of propositions true > *about* a machine (as opposed to science, which is what machine can > prove). > > To oppose theology and science makes both theology and science into a > pseudo-theology. > Everything I say is just consequences of taking seriously the idea > that we might survive with an artificial digital brain. If we get a > contradiction (not weirdness) then we refute comp. If we get only > weirdness, then we can compare it to the weirdness around you and see > if the theory shed some light. > > You seem to assume some Aristotelian notion of matter (system, body, > energy, ...). Well, that just cannot work unless you postulate a > special type of non computationalist theory of mind. That is all my > point. I do not pretend this is entirely obvious. > > Bruno > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 11:22 AM, Pzomby <htra...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Jul 1, 4:23 am, selva kumar <selvakr1...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Is consciousness causally effective ? > > > In my opinion, yes, if in simple terms, it is logically correct to > > state: A property of consciousness is….the capacity and ability of > > individual human consciousness to create intentionally desired > > physical and mental effects. > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "Everything List" group. > > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > > . > > For more options, visit this group > > athttp://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en > > . > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "Everything List" group. > > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > > . > > For more options, visit this group > > athttp://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en > > . > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
