On 23 Nov 2011, at 17:59, John Mikes wrote:
To the posts below:
where is this 'immortality' come from at all? in the 'existence' in
change it is implied that what comes around goes around, the rest is
our imagination afraid of "dying". Our (living???) complexity
changes int other constructs. Nothing dies, just transforms.
Relations change. Immortality implies mortality, which is
unreasonable. Transfer into 'bio' or 'silicon? brings me to the 2nd
point:
"On a Schmidhuber-Zuse-Lloyd-Bostrum-Fredkin hypothesis, that the
cosmos is a quantum computer, a hypercomputer, a simulation..."
reminds me of the previous times metaphors, when "we" (the cosmos?)
were steam engines, etc., because THAT was the actual image of the
level of thinking. Today it is the computer - that embryonic machine
we so far constructed on 'silicon' basis. Not the last step in our
development. Our 'simulations' are mirrored by the "now" images as
well.
Those explanations are not incompatible, and we have to use the
simplest and clearest explanations, if only we want to be able to be
corrected and to progress. From the evidences we have we are steam
engine and, at least, computer.
Smart people are wasting their time into arguments not reasonably
thought over.
We can only propose theories and see if they fit with the observation.
I rather confess to my agnosticism: "I dunno",
In science we are always agnostic, except when a theory is refuted. We
have only beliefs, and they can be true by chance, but this we never
know as such.
but do not present fancy theories to hide my ignorance.
But then you will be unable to be shown wrong, and you can't progress.
Fancy theories is all we have. We should just not pretend that they
are the truth.
I tell that we are far from the omniscient level and I expect many
novelties to show up - we do not even fantasize about - today.
Good intuition ... which is already explainable with the theory above.
If we are universal machine, then we are forever ignorant even just
with respect to what numbers can do. As far as mechanism is correct we
can correctly believe (know) why. Arithmetic is full of surprises and
we cannot not expect novelties to show up. Here a theory explains and
make necessary one of you main persistent point.
Actually the "Schmidhuber-Suze-LLoyd-Bostrom-Fredkin hypothesis" (that
the cosmos is a quantum computer) has been refuted a long time ago. If
we are universal machine, reality is not. Even if the quantum
computing machine wins the statistical game in the limit, which is
experimentally plausible. But this has to be justified from less
demanding hypothesis, if only to be able to distinguish the qualia
from the quanta (but also to get an explanation where such machine
comes from.
Those researcher rely on a conception of Soul and Matter which comes
from Aristotle and is incompatible with mechanism. Given that they use
mechanism, they are inconsistent. It is a case where we can't be
agnostic, we can know that the theory is inconsistent. Neither Mind,
nor the Cosmos (the Mind's border) can be a computer. They are not
aware of the distinction between first and third person views, nor are
they aware of the first person indeterminacy.
It looks like many still fail to see this clearly. This does not
jeopardize all their conclusions, to be sure.
Bruno
Otherwise I appreciate the in part concluding results: our present
line of technology, what I try to enjoy with thanks.
John Mikes
On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 11:40 AM, <spudboy...@aol.com> wrote:
Thanks Jason,
Yes, I am not sure if QTI is really Immortality, as in post-
mortality, if memory, and personality, are destroyed? To a hammer,
the entire world looks like a nail; as the Japanese expression goes,
so I personally wonder, if the old 'move' function of data
processing, can somehow be analogous, to our minds being moved
elsewhere-sort of a copy paste function? One has to have a program
or a developer to execute the 'move' function, as I see it.
>> Therefore, even for those that don't survive to see the human
race become a trans-humanist, omega-point civilization, and for
those that don't upload their brain, there remain paths to these
other realities. I think this can address the eternal aging
implied by many-worlds: eventually, the probability that you survive
by other means, e.g., waking up as a being in a post-singularity
existence, exceeds the probability of continued survival through
certain paths in the wave function.<<
On a Schmidhiber-Zuse-Lloyd-Bostrum-Fredkin hypothesis, that the
cosmos is a quantum computer, a hypercomputer, a simulation; we must
first ascertain, how we as subroutines in such a cosmos, can
determine if this is fact or not? Because this kind of pursuit
seems so complicated,and frustrating, most scholars just give up on
the question. Then the question has to be asked, what is the pay
off? My answer would be, post-mortality, not necessarilly
immortality, in the eternal sense. Jokingly, I would add to my
answer that, this is the best offer you'll have all day! If we can
prove this.
If we can achieve post-mortality,(biological or silicon) as
Ettinger longed for, as Ray Kurzweil pursues, as the people at Alcor
are going for, as well as Vernor Vinge's uploading, then all the
better for us. Living on, seems less severe than biologically
perishing, first. But that choice (as far as we now know) is not yet
available to us. So the rough road of dying and hoping along the
way, that we are a simulation, that will be subject to recurrence,
is about all we have.
Mitch
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