On 24 Nov 2011, at 23:00, Jason Resch wrote:
On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 2:44 PM, benjayk <benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com
> wrote:
Jason Resch-2 wrote:
>
> On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 1:17 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net>
wrote:
>
>> On 11/23/2011 4:27 AM, Jason Resch wrote:
>>
>>> The simulation argument:
>>>
>>> http://www.simulation-**argument.com/simulation.html<http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html
>
>>>
>>> If any civilization in this universe or others has reached the
point
>>> where they choose to explore consciousness (rather than or in
addition
>>> to
>>> exploring their environment) then there are super-intelligences
which
>>> may
>>> chooses to see what it is like to be you, or any other human, or
any
>>> other
>>> species. After they generate this experience, they may
integrate its
>>> memories into the larger super-mind, and therefore there are
>>> continuations
>>> where you "become one with god". Alternate post-singularity
>>> civilizations
>>> may maintain individuality, in which case, any one person
choosing to
>>> experience another being's life will after experiencing that life
>>> "awaken"
>>> to find themselves in a type of heaven or nirvana offering
unlimited
>>> freedom, from which they can come back to earth or other
physical worlds
>>> as
>>> they choose (via simulation).
>>>
>>> Therefore, even for those that don't survive to see the human race
>>> become
>>> a trans-humanist, omega-point civilization, and for those that
don't
>>> upload
>>> their brain, there remain paths to these other realities. I
think this
>>> can address the eternal aging implied by many-worlds:
eventually, the
>>> probability that you survive by other means, e.g., waking up as
a being
>>> in
>>> a post-singularity existence, exceeds the probability of continued
>>> survival
>>> through certain paths in the wave function.
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>
>> Why stop there. Carrying the argument to it's natural conclusion
the
>> above has already happened (infinitely many) times and we are now
all in
>> the simulation of the super-intelligent beings who long ago
discovered
>> that
>> nirvana is too boring.
>>
>> Brent
>>
>>
>>
> Brent,
>
> I agree. About 10% of all humans who have ever lived are alive
today.
> With a silicon-based brain, we could experience things about
1,000,000
> times the rate our biological brains do. If the humans that
uploaded
> themselves spend just 1 day (real time) experiencing other human
lives
> that
> is equivalent to 40 human lifetimes worth of experience, and thus
80% of
> all human lives experienced would be simulated ones. (After that 1
day)
> This is after just one day, but such a civilization could thrive
in this
> universe for trillions of years.
>
Isn't uploading somewhat superflous if we are already simulated?
If everyone were to think like that, then nothing would be
simulated. It is like deciding not to put on a seat belt when you
go in a car because you believe in other branches you won't get in
an accident in the first place. The decisions we make affect the
relative proportions and frequencies of events.
Yes, all simulations exist, no matter what. For example they exist in
UD*, which belongs to a tiny part of arithmetical truth.
But we cannot effectively recognize ourselves in UD* (even if we knew
our substitution level!, by the theorem of Rice in computer science),
so it makes sense to change the probabilities of our first person
extensions by personal decisions.
We can influence our first person future experiences, in the mundane
life and in the many possible form of after-life. This is related with
the existence of local, terrestrial, free will in the determinist frame.
So uploading is not necessarily superfluous. It is vein if the
abstract goal is "immortality", but full of sense if the goal consists
in seeing the next soccer cup and your brain is too much ill to do it
'naturally'.
Bruno
It seems this whole argument more plausibly means that there is no
simulation needed in the first place (it already there anyway). It
seems
that ultimately we all will inveitably get lost in our simulations
and all
the others that we could be a part of (how would we avoid this?), so
no one
knows anymore what is simulated and what not, and who simulates and
who is
simluating (and how it is simulated), what is past and what is
future, who
is who, etc... So ultimately, there are not really concrete
simulations
going on at all, since there are so intermingled with each other and
with
"reality" that we can't distinguish different simulations and
simulations
from reality (in an absolute way).
I mostly agree with the above. Reality and paths through it are
very complex, and what is simulated vs. what isn't may be impossible
to distinguish.
Everything occurs that subjectively can occur. Subjectivity orders
the space
of infinite possibilities, and learns to navigate it (creating a
subjective
future). "Normal", material reality is just the ordering mechanism
to avoid
getting lost over and over again in "simulation-like" or "dreamy"
realities.
So we may just feel to be biological beings because this experience is
subjectively consistent, not because any objective progress is
lacking. We
could already be a part of a infinite progressed simulation, we are
just
lost in it. We wouldn't know how to navigate the infinite
possiblilities
without biological bodies, that's why we have them. Look at how lost
we get
in the internet, and that's just things on a screen! Material
existence and
biological bodies (together with their restrictions) help us to
order the
possibilities in a very coherent (but sometimes very painful and
annoying)
way.
We may already be in that "virtual" space in our dreams, we just
can't stay
there very long and harness it to a great extent, because we have no
clue
what to do with it - it is just too confusing.
It is obviously extremely challening to navigate the space of all
possibilities, especially considering an infinite amount of agents
are doing
the same. The only way is to let go of self-centered goals and learn
to go
with the flow of self-organizing intelligence.
So according to this argument, we will never upload ourselves,
because we
already "did", or rather we are already part of an infinite network of
possibilities. If we upload ourselves, we would go "fully" virtual
"again",
with no benifit whatsoever, so this possbility won't subjectively
occur,
except in dreams maybe.
Instead, more plausibly our material reality will lose its
restrictions, as
we see we are not really fundamentally restricted to material
existence (or
we are "already simulated"), we just have to use it as of now
because we
can't navigate more fluid realities well enough. But we can learn it
(primarily by becoming more conscious), and then there is no need for
uploading anymore.
Slowly we may realize we are already part of an infinite
"hyperinternet". My
thesis is we (=material beings) are the most important agents in this,
because our (collective!) reality is as material and consistent as
it can
get, and therefore is the best one to form stable networks in (and
to create
a unified consistent timeline). It may serve as a hub, and as a
place to
download experience from the less stable realities.
It will be interesting when technology to record and play back
dreams is more developed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MElU0UW0V3Q
We just have to get to a point where we are able to cope with strange
happenings and overlapping realities and use the extended
possibilities
responsibly, which is largly not yet the case. Most people get
profoundly
confused by that. Until we are more ready to face that, a natural
mechanism
of self-consistency will (largly) shut of us from the rest of the
"dreamy"
hyperinternet, making our universe seem barren and our material
reality
limited. I think a big jump will occur if we collectively are open
to such
things (meaning no dogmatic materialism and religion), and not start
to be
superstitous and esoteric because of the events, and not be fearful,
and be
skeptic concerning the reality of the events and of the informations
gathered, and most importantly, beginning to universally treat each
other
nicely (imagine the horror of criminals being able to read thoughts or
teleport into your home, or have psychic weapons) and be aware that
we are
all in this together, as one. Then we are finally ready to truly
join the
infinite cosmic ride.
benjayk
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