On 31.12.2011 22:57 meekerdb said the following:
On 12/31/2011 1:33 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
On 31.12.2011 22:00 meekerdb said the following:
...
Completely!? How do you know that? The Mars Rover doesn't just
record a sensor value in its computer, it also remember the value
and at a later time it may act on that value in combination with
other values, some internal and some external, to which it
assigns different levels of importance based on overall mission
goals. Exactly what would have to be added to make the Rover
human-like conscious?
Conscious experience is what is missing. To this end, it is not
enough to write values in the database. Google saves a lot of
information in its database, so what?
Google doesn't learn, plan, or act in our world.
It is not too difficult to give Mars Rover the access to the Google
database. Does it change something?
Let us start with human beings. Experiments shows that one can
separate conscious and unconscious experience. Roughly speaking,
unconscious experience is some feedback loops that goes through the
brain without us experiencing them. On the contrary, we have for
example 3D visual conscious experience. Please note that part of
information from eyes is processed unconsciously.
But that was my question. What part is processed consciously. I gave
my speculation below. You just said, "conscious experience" was what
was needed to make the experience conscious. I need hardly point out
that is a non-answer.
Science has just recently started to research on conscious experience
and so far this phenomenon has not been repeated in vitro yet. Moreover,
it seems that the modern science does not have means to describe it:
Jeffrey A. Gray, Consciousness: Creeping up on the Hard Problem.
p.5. “To put this Hard Problem into a preliminary nut-shell: it arises
because nothing in our current theoretical models of brain and behavior
accounts for the existence of conscious experience, still less for its
detailed properties.”
This shows that we have to wait for more research in this direction to
give a precise definition.
On other other hand, it is relatively easy to observe conscious
experience, if you start from yourself. The experience of 3D visual
world, music, feeling, etc. These phenomena must be researched, I do not
believe it is a good idea to neglect them just because the current state
of science cannot explain them.
The results described in Gray's book show that conscious phenomena are
rather slow, it takes about a quarter of a second to form conscious
phenomena. In comparison, the unconscious feedback loops are by an order
of magnitude faster. This means that common reasoning "I saw something
and then I have done it" is actually wrong. We get in conscious
experience already results made unconsciously. Gray's hypothesis is that
the conscious experience is kind of a multi-functional display created
by the brain to allow for late error correction. However, he stresses in
his book that right now we have no idea how that display is created and
functions.
In any case, in his book you will find the description of many
experiments in this respect.
Do you agree that human beings have conscious as well as
unconscious experience? If yes, please separate the experience of
Mars Rover into these two components.
I did. See below.
Brent
In my view you find in Mars Rover just feedbacks loop as in a
self-driving car. This is the reason, I have employed the word
completely. I agree though, it would be better to use instead of
completely "in my knowledge".
Evgenii
I think it would be recording a kind of general historical
narrative which it would draw on as a source of information used
in planning future actions by means of an internal simulation of
itself and the local environment. I think that would also make it
what Bruno calls a Lobian machine.
I do not see here the division between conscious and unconscious
experience here. Do you mean that if I save something into the database,
this belong to conscious experience?
The hard problem of consciousness is not to explain intellect, this
presumably could be done. The hard problem is conscious experience and
this must be researched further.
Let me finish by two more quotes from Gray. First the hard problem put
differently:
p. 40. “Given, that there is a scientific story that goes seamlessly
from sensory input to behavioural output without reference to
consciousness then, when we try to add conscious experience back into
the story, we can’t find anything for it to do. Consciousness, it seems,
has no casual powers, it stands outside the casual chain.”
Second that a conscious life does exist:
p. 7. “So be prepared to discover that much of your consciousness life
is illusory. But cling, nonetheless, to that fundamental rock upon which
Descartes built his great conceptual edifice (no matter how
unsatisfactory it turned out to be in other respects): whatever else may
be an illusion, the fact that you have a conscious life cannot be. For
it is in consciousness that illusions are created: no consciousness, no
possibility of illusion.
Does Mars Rover has illusions?
Evgenii
P.S. More quotes from Gray:
http://blog.rudnyi.ru/2011/08/consciousness-creeping-up-on-the-hard-problem.html
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