On 21 Sep 2012, at 03:39, Stephen P. King wrote:
On 9/20/2012 12:26 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 20 Sep 2012, at 17:02, Craig Weinberg wrote:
Here's another reductio ad absurdum illustration of comp.
If the version of comp we are discussing here is independent of
physics, then shouldn't it be possible for us to program universal
machines using only empty space?
You are quite quick here, but have a good insight, as comp makes
space non clonable, indeterministic in the details, and plausibly
Turing universal, as QM confirms. The 0-body problem (the quantum
vacuum) is already Turing universal (I think). For classical
physics you need three bodies at least).
Dear Bruno,
I agree 100% with you. That the quantum vacuum is TU, is obvious
to me. I think that Svozil has something written on this.. maybe or
't Hoft.
Length can be quantified, so why can't we just use millimeters or
Planck lengths as the basis for our enumeration, addition, and
multiplication and directly program from our mind to space?
Who we? In the universe nearby it costs a lot of energy/money/time
to handle matter already gigantic compared to the Planck length.
Only because we are trying to do things the classical way...
?
Explain this to those who build the LHC.
Or are you suggesting we are already simulated by the quantum
vacuum. Very plausible, but comp asks for justifying this in
arithmetic.
I am not sure if that is possible because it seems to me that
that requires the specification of an uncountable infinity.
I don't see the problem. You might confuse "Turing emulable" and
"Turing recoverable". In the last case we take into account the first
person indeterminacy, and comp already explains that it is uncountable.
Of course, it would be hard to know where it was because we would
be constantly flying away from a space that was anchored to an
absolute position independent of Earth, the solar system, Milky
Way, etc, but that shouldn't matter anyhow since whatever method
we use to directly program in empty space with our minds should
also give us access to the results of the computations.
?
What do you think? Just as wafers of silicon glass could in theory
be functionally identical to a living brain, wouldn't it be
equally prejudiced to say that empty space isn't good enough to
host the computations of silicon?
Empty space, in any turing universal theory, is equivalent with
universal dovetailing. It is a trivial theory, as when we assume
comp, the space and belief in spaces have to be justified through
number "dreams" statistics.
But the numbers build an "arithmetic body"
The numbers arithmetically dream of a non arithmetic body.
and then populate a space with multiple copies of it... so that they
can "implement" the UD.
No, they are implemented by the UD, which exists like prime numbers
exists. Primitively.
Their dreaming is this! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamlands
The advantage of comp is that we can use math and more easily
reason clearly. We can formulate key parts of the mind body problem
mathematically.
I disagree. We can only formalize the mind, never the body, if we
wish to never be inconsistent.
We can't formalize neither the (1p) mind nor the body.
And computationalists are cool as they don't think twice before
giving the restaurant menu to the puppet who asks politely. They
don't judge people from their religion, skin color, clothes, or if
made of wood, or metal or flesh, as long as they behave
respectfully of course.
Maybe it is because they are really not people at all! They are
algorithms hiding in a puppet.
In that case comp is false.
Bruno
--
Onward!
Stephen
http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html
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