On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 10:13:06AM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Evgenii Rudnyi > > The following components are inextricably mixed: > > life, consciousness, free will, intelligence > > you can't have one without the others,
I disagree. You can have life without any of the others. Also, I suspect you can have intelligence without life, and intelligence without consciousness. > and (or because) they're all nonphysical, all subjective. Yes - they share those in common, as do a lot of other concepts such as emergence, complexity, information, entropy, creativity and so on. > So only the computer can know for sure if it > has any of these. > > > Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net > 10/11/2012 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen > > > ----- Receiving the following content ----- > From: Evgenii Rudnyi > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2012-10-11, 07:58:57 > Subject: Re: Conscious robots > > > On 11.10.2012 11:36 Evgenii Rudnyi said the following: > > On 26.09.2012 20:35 meekerdb said the following: > >> An interesting paper which comports with my idea that "the problem > >> of consciousness" will be "solved" by engineering. Or John > >> Clark's point that consciousness is easy, intelligence is hard. > >> > >> Consciousness in Cognitive Architectures A Principled Analysis of > >> RCS, Soar and ACT-R > >> > > > > I have started reading the paper. Thanks a lot for the link. > > > > I have finished reading the paper. I should say that I am not impressed. > First, interestingly enough > > p. 30 "The observer selects a system according to a set of main features > which we shall call traits." > > Presumably this means that without an observer a system does not exist. > In a way it is logical as without a human being what is available is > just an ensemble of interacting strings. > > Now let me make some quotes to show you what the authors mean by > consciousness in the order they appear in the paper. > > p. 45 "This makes that, in reality, the state of the environment, from > the point of view of the system, will not only consist of the values of > the coupling quantities, but also of its conceptual representations of > it. We shall call this the subjective state of the environment." > > p. 52 "These principles, biologically inspired by the old metaphor ?r > not so metaphor but an actual functional definition? of the brain-mind > pair as the controller-control laws of the body ?he plant?, provides a > base characterisation of cognitive or intelligent control." > > p. 60 "Principle 5: Model-driven perception ? Perception is the > continuous update of the integrated models used by the agent in a > model-based cognitive control architecture by means of real-time > sensorial information." > > p. 61 "Principle 6: System awareness? system is aware if it is > continuously perceiving and generating meaning from the countinuously > updated models." > > p. 62 "Awareness implies the partitioning of predicted futures and > postdicted pasts by a value function. This partitioning we call meaning > of the update to the model." > > p. 65 "Principle 7: System attention ? Attentional mechanisms allocate > both physical and cognitive resources for system processes so as to > maximise performance." > > p. 116 "From this perspective, the analysis proceeds in a similar way: > if modelbased behaviour gives adaptive value to a system interacting > with an object, it will give also value when the object modelled is the > system itself. This gives rise to metacognition in the form of > metacontrol loops that will improve operation of the system overall." > > p. 117 "Principle 8: System self-awareness/consciousness ? A system is > conscious if it is continuously generating meanings from continously > updated self-models in a model-based cognitive control architecture." > > p. 122 'Now suppose that for adding consciousness to the operation of > the system we add new processes that monitor, evaluate and reflect the > operation of the ?nconscious? normal processes (Fig. > fig:cons-processes). We shall call these processes the ?onscious? ones.' > > If I understood it correctly, the authors when they develop software > just mark some bits as a subjective state and some processes as > conscious. Voil?! We have a conscious robot. > > Let us see what happens. > > Evgenii > -- > http://blog.rudnyi.ru/2012/10/consciousness-in-cognitive-architectures.html > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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