On 05 Feb 2013, at 13:29, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Bruno Marchal
Again you are miscontruing Plato's idea or form, which is potential,
as matter, which is actual.
Not only that, but matter must be created by a creator in Platonism.
So altogether
we have form, matter, and creator.
According to this, quanta are not physical states, they are just
mathematical constructions, ideas or blueprints.
They only become physical when the wavicle (what Plato called an idea
or form) collapses and becomes a particle or whatever.
As verification, here's an account of Plato's version of creation
taken from the Timeaus:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato/#PlaPuz
"The Timaeus is also famous for its account of the creation of the
universe by the Demiurge [a creator, ie collapser of the wavicles].
Unlike the creation by the God of medieval theologians, Plato’s
Demiurge does not create ex nihilo, but rather
orders the cosmos out of chaotic elemental matter, imitating the
eternal Forms [or quanta or wavicles]. Plato takes the
four elements, fire, air, water, and earth (which Plato proclaims to
be composed of various aggregates of
triangles [or wavicles, forms or quanta] ), making various compounds
of these into what he calls the Body of the
Universe [matter].
Of all of Plato’s works, the Timaeus provides the most detailed
conjectures in the areas we now regard as the
natural sciences: physics, astronomy, chemistry, and biology.
That's an Aristotelian account of Plato. It is more complex than that.
The Timaeus, should be compensated with the Parmenides, and some
synthesis should be tried. Then this is what Plotinus did, and that is
why, when I mention Plato, I am in the line with the neo-platonists.
I propose bridges (including 'testable" one) between Plato, computer
science and physics.
Bruno
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2013-02-04, 11:43:07
Subject: Re: multiverses and quantum computers
On 01 Feb 2013, at 19:26, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Bruno,
I can't see that superposition of states is any more magical
in one universe than, say, multiple roots to an equation, or
imaginary
numbers. What matters is whether they are true states or not.
And truth is not magical.
Agreed.
But truth becomes magical when you require that a true state has to
be a physical state.
There are numbers, and just by virtue of obeying the laws of
addition and multiplication, due to an intrinsic misunderstanding
between the additive realm and the multiplicative realm, universal
numbers cannot not exist and they introduced an incredible mess in
platonia.
I agree that the superposition of states is no more magical than the
many roots of an equation.
Bt there is a difference, which is that if comp is true, what we
take as physical, both the particles and their superposition states,
comes from an earlier (arithmetically earlier, with shorter proofs)
from the fact that each first person determined by a relative
universal numbers states, is associated to all computations going
through that states.
So particles and their superposition are entirely phenomenal, but in
stable and sharable fashion, apparently, for the "measure-winning"
universal numbers.
A brain is a Hubble telescope, in arithmetic, to explore the
unboundable richness of arithmetic when seen from inside, from many
possible perspectives.
We must be humble. Today, as far as we "know", assuming comp, the
physical universe might still be only a failed attempt by God to
solve a fourth degree diophantine polynomials.
But OK, the resemblance with Plotinus' system suggests it can also
be more than that.
There are tuns of open problems. The weakness of comp, is that the
interesting question, using the simplest definitions, leads to very
hard problem in math. But the contrary would have been astonishing.
There is no reason that the theological reality is "simple",
especially with a brain which seems to filter a part of the truth,
for apparently both logical and evolution based "reason". And there
is an abyss of complexity between those two kind of reasons.
Bruno
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Telmo Menezes
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2013-02-01, 03:46:32
Subject: Re: multiverses and quantum computers
Hi Bruno,
On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 4:15 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
On 31 Jan 2013, at 15:15, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Telmo Menezes
Perhaps you're right, but to my limited knowledge,
a quantum has infinite paths available between
points A and B without invoking another universe.
Once we are able to use (classical) information obtained in the
other quantum paths, like when doing a Fourier transform on some
superposition of many computations, like in a quantum computer,
what makes them different of other universes?
The superposition of many computations itself. Superposition of
states on a same universe are a bit hard to swallow. I think people
reject the idea of a multiverse because it sounds loony, but my
understanding is that making QM consistent with a single universe
requires magical thinking. It's the same as saying that
consciousness emerges from neural activity. People overlook the
magical step because they are more confortable with the resulting
model.
Bruno
So no problem.
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Telmo Menezes
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2013-01-31, 08:13:30
Subject: Re: Re: About the Infinite Repetition of Histories in Space
Hi Roger,
In the one universe model, where does the extra computational
power of quantum computers come from?
On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Roger Clough
<rclo...@verizon.net> wrote:
Hi Telmo Menezes
IMHO more than one universe is unjustified.
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Telmo Menezes
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2013-01-30, 12:10:08
Subject: Re: About the Infinite Repetition of Histories in Space
Hi Roger,
I find it harder to believe in finite universes. Why the precise
number, whatever it is?
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Roger Clough
<rclo...@verizon.net> wrote:
Hi Stephen P. King
It's easier to believe in salvation through faith or UFOs than
infinite universes.
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Stephen P. King
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2013-01-28, 09:20:33
Subject: About the Infinite Repetition of Histories in Space
Hi,
牋 I think this paper might be fodder for a nice discussion!
http://arxiv.org/abs/1301.5295
About the Infinite Repetition of Histories in Space
Francisco Jos Soler Gil, Manuel Alfonseca
(Submitted on 22 Jan 2013 (v1), last revised 23 Jan 2013 (this
version, v2))
This paper analyzes two different proposals, one by Ellis and
Brundrit, based on classical relativistic cosmology, the other by
Garriga and Vilenkin, based on the DH interpretation of quantum
mechanics, both of which conclude that, in an infinite universe,
planets and living beings must be repeated an infinite number of
times. We point to some possible shortcomings in the arguments of
these authors. We conclude that the idea of an infinite repetition
of histories in space cannot be considered strictly speaking a
consequence of current physics and cosmology. Such ideas should be
seen rather as examples of {\guillemotleft}ironic
science{\guillemotright} in the terminology of John Horgan.
--
Onward!
Stephen
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