On 09 Feb 2013, at 12:55, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
Opinions about this?
As allways, excuses for my dyslexic writing. Sometimes I can not
avoid it
I will come back later, when I have more time, on this. Here I will
just assess what you say below:
That plants produce physyological and psichological alterations in
order to defend themselves from being eaten is a almost evident fact.
I agree. Actually many plants can make a sophisticate control on
animals, mainly insects. The plants have the complex task to attract
pollinators and to repulse predators. They make color and nectars, to
pollinators, but some orchids makes the only perfume that some bees
can use to attract and be accepted by young bee queens. Some plants
and some insects can produce subtle behavior changes in other animals.
The chemical relation between plants and animals are more and more
understood to be far more complex and important that we have thought.
Animals are the pet of plants :)
More later,
Bruno
Domestications of a plant is the effort to enlarge their edibility
by reducing the active substances. Cereals have almost no altering
substances because its long history of domestication. That´s why
kinds naturally eat cereals. But if you drink two litres of orange
juice, it is probable that you will vomit to avoid the excess of
substances that the liver can not detoxify fast enough.
2013/2/8 Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com>
Some initial comments, because I´m very interested on these
alterations of conscience. The rest of my comments will appear along
the conversation:
I´m persuaded, by very simple evolutionary analysis that plants
produced whatever chemical substance that stops from eating them.
this is their only mechanism of defence since they can not run,
apart from spines, indigestible tissues and so on (by the way, if
you find a plant with spines, it is very likely that this plant is
edible).
To deter being eaten, the plants produce whatever work for this
purpose: from consciousness alteration substances to venoms that
interfere critically with varius psysiological functions.
The nauseas, diarrea, very bad taste experienced by the plant eater
is a logical reaction: the organism detect the alteration and try to
stop eating and to expel the substance eaten from the digestive
tract (by both orifices ;). By the way when we feel the unnatural
sensation of acceleration and movements without walking, for example
in a car in a curvy road, it is erroneously interpreted by the
organism as an alteration of conscience produced by something eaten,
so it trigger the same reaction, trying to expel some substance that
we has not eaten. (see Evolutionary Psychology and the generation of
Culture (ISBN 0195101073))
some drugs seem to debilitate the control centre that integrate
information form different modules in the mind-brain. Some people
that has suffered a trauma in the brain experience these alterations
permanently. This control center is in charge of ordering the
relevance of the inputs both the external inputs and the output
produced by other mental modules.this mental control center can be
called "consciousness".
That's why under hallucinogenous drugs we receive an stream of non
filtered events: We see the furniture, but also the interpretation
of the furniture as a monster. This monster interpretation is also
produced by the visual interpretation module in a normal state,
among other alternative interpretations, but these bizarre
interpretations would never arrive to the conscious. The drugs break
this filter. What the consciousness perceive in a normal state is a
consensual, coherent picture of the environment, according with what
existed a moment ago. What the hallucinogen produce is a disruption
of this process, Just like a venom interfere in other physiological
functions. Plants simply essay different variations of chemicals and
the ones that deter being eaten. that why the amazing variety of
effect that produce different species. Animals have livers to
detoxify these chemicals by enzymes.
I have no dout that, we have a mythological religious and social
modules that produce their own outputs, in the form of feelings, but
also interpretations or colourations of visual images. It also
produce hallucinations that are not arbitrary.
In a normal state the conscience module produce the effect is a sort
of super-ego conversations or a conscientious feeling. I sometimes
talk with my father and I don´t think that I´m crazy But when the
raw output of the conscience is not filtered, sometimes these
outputs associate themselves with the visual output and form of
hallucinations who talk to us. The double reaction of fear and
admiration , peace and terror are universal against the unknown and
hallucinations trigger these reactions. These are the reactions
produced by the unscontrolled stream of elaborations that would
arrive to the consciousness under hallucinative state.
Life is about to deal with the unknowm. According with evolutionary
psychologiests, the dreams in normal dream state are probably a
training for tuning the mind for possible situations that may happen
in the future. The construction if dreams follows the same logic, at
other level, than the altered consciousness produced by drugs.
Finally, hallucinations don´t say arbitrary things, since they are
exaggerated products of our own mind. The conscience speak in favour
of the social interests and the own long term interest, and also
about what we have to fear and what we have to love. If a mythical
entity talk with us in an altered state, he is talking about us and
about how we must feel and behave about others, and its narration
is a result of our evolutionary past in combination with event of
the personal experience
That´t why religious people in a society are very important. They
are in more close contact with this spiritual self and know the best
practices -traditions- of the society.
Lastly, Reality is our shared consciousness. we have no other
reality reachable to us. The rejection of any of the
phenomenological elaborations of our mind is not only an
impoverishment of our life, but an unscientific rejection of study
the reality available to us, and -for the matherialist minded ones-
an impairment of our possibilities of survival as individuals and as
a society.
2013/2/8 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
On 08 Feb 2013, at 10:09, Russell Standish wrote:
On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 07:31:06PM +1100, Kim Jones wrote:
Salvia, like Ketamine, (but quite less dangerous, and anti-
addictive) has a dissociative effect which might illustrate the
"Galois connection" between 1p-mind (consciousness) and its 3p local
handlings (the 3p-brains). By making a peculiar dissociation at some
place in the brain, one are left with the feeling that we are *less*
than we are used to think, and that we are consequently in front of
*more* possibilities. That "Galois connection" occurs in many place
in math: less equations = more solutions, or less axioms = more
interpretations/models. Somehow less brain = more experience, or
more intense and richer feeling of experience. This would make the
brain being more a filter of consciousness than a producer of
consciousness.
Hmmmmmmm……"less is more". Another of my favourite expressions.
Please explain the "Gallic connection" (connection galoise à
laquelle tu pointe). I am currently convinced that the brain
"receives" the mind, much as a radio receiver receives signal, so
this makes INTUITIVE sense to me.
I assume he was referring to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galois_connection
Not bad article. I was alluding to the syntax/semantics (Galois)
connection, and its generalization into machine and machine's
behavior, or machine and machine's mind, when the brain becomes a
filter of consciousness instead of "producer" of consciousness, but
all this are open problems (in arithmetic/computer science).
Bruno
Cheers
--
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Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au
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