On 02 May 2013, at 15:11, Telmo Menezes wrote:
On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 6:26 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
On 01 May 2013, at 17:33, Telmo Menezes wrote to John Clark:
At this point I'm not even talking about Science but logic and a
distaste
for cheerfully and strongly believing in 2 contradictory things.
I believe that human intelligence is a product of Darwinian
evolution
and I'm agnostic on consciousness. There is nothing contradictory
about this, but I can't think of any further way to make my point.
We'll have to disagree to disagree.
You shouldn't, perhaps.
May be it would be enough to just ask John Clark to push his logic
a bit
further.
I agree that human intelligence is a product of Darwinian
evolution, but
this assumes some mechanism, and thus Mechanism.
Then the discovery of the universal machine shows that machine
intelligence
is a (logical) product of the elementary operations in arithmetic.
Then machine can see their own limit, and are statistically forced
to guess
in something which can't be a machine, as arithmetical truth, for
example.
We don't need to know what consciousness is.
If we can agree that consciousness is
1) undoubtable
2) incommunicable
3) invariant for digital substitution at some level.
I believe in 3) but not with 100% certainty.
You don't need to " believe" anything, just to agree 'for the sake of
the argument.
And there is no certainties.
Isn't it possible that,
in fact, I was created just a couple of hours ago by adding the
molecules of the food I had for lunch to my body, and that before I
was someone else and we just happen to share the same (now fake)
memories. I don't think this is the case, but can I be sure?
Yes that's an arithmetical computational history. It exists, and so
you have to take it into account in all experience/experiment of
physics you can do. But if the normal measure behaves a bit, you might
need to take into account that and similar "rare" history only to get
the 10^1000 billionth correct decimal.
In arithmetic you have all computational histories, and by the FPI you
are distributed in all of them. Physics get statistical at the start.
Memories are not really fake of not fake. They are appropriate, or
not, relatively to probable histories.
Then we can understand that the mind body problem becomes a body
statistical-appearance problem in the whole of arithmetic (not just
the
computable sigma_1, but the non computable pi_1, sigma_2,
pi_2, ..... up to
arithmetical truth).
This generalizes both Darwin and Everett on arithmetic.
It shows a non negligible part of what the physical reality is the
border
of.
Machines cannot not be religious.
It is unavoidable, unless you deliberately program them to not look
deep
enough, ... of course.
I like your ideas, but I still lack the technical knowledge in some of
the steps to feel confortable using them.
I appreciate you tell me. Normally UDA is understandable with only a
passive knowledge of what a computer is, but AUDA, where the
"religion" aspect is clearer, needs a good familiarity with the gaps
between computability, provability and truth, coming from the
incompleteness phenomenon in arithmetical logics and above.
And, btw, you are right with the 'artificial nets'. We will not make
intelligent machines, we will fish in the arithmetical ocean and
sometimes
we get the chance to meet some-one, in some recognizable ways. We
might
learn deep lessons in the exploration, though.
Nice.
Well, we can hope the best, but we can fear the worst. Even the
bitcoin has made a little crack due to exaggerate speculation.
Universal Machines, like brain, computers and cells, are really doors
to the Unknown. It may be that lies plays some part in the
exploration, like with the mimicking ants jumping spider which make
the birds believing that they are non edible ants, when actually they
are edible spider. Even Peano Arithmetic get some more provability
power when the false axiom "PA is inconsistent" is added. Lies can run
deep.
Bruno
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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